Maybe the foxes burrowed and destroyed gardens in general. And grapes were just the most poetically evocative of garden plants.
Let this be a lesson to me not to blithely assume the Bible got its natural history wrong. And Aesop. Come to think, that fable about the crow filling the jar with pebbles to raise the water level so he could get a drink is probably something a real crow might actually do.
I mean, crows, freaky smart, right?
They really are. This came up at the meetup yesterday.
On the internet no one knows you're a crow.
Now I want a thirsty crow, a half full pitcher of water, and a pile of pebbles. And a video camera.
A man and a woman
Are one.
A man and a woman and a crow
Are one.
not quite right....
Everything eats grapes. Except obligate carnivores.
Are you sure you weren't thinking of foxes because of the internet.
9: I got the camera set up, now hurry up and put those pebbles in the pitcher so I can have a drink.
I never think of this as a biblical reference so much as a Bette Davis reference.
I had the impression from various internet discussions that foxes only eat hedgehogs.
11: Crow realized God loved him—
Otherwise, he would have dropped dead.
So that was proved.
Crow reclined, marvelling, on his heart-beat.
This is also interesting because grapes are sometimes toxic for dogs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape_and_raisin_toxicity_in_dogs
Also, the OP is another example of the foolish lengths non-believers will go to discover supposed "error" in Scriptures.
20: That should read "Scripture", not "Scriptures", right?
20 is an example of how ridiculous non-believers sound when they attempt to mimic the discourse of believers.
4: And Samson went and caught three hundred foxes, and took firebrands, and turned tail to tail, and put a firebrand in the midst between two tails.
5: And when he had set the brands on fire, he let them go into the standing corn of the Philistines, and burnt up both the shocks, and also the standing corn, with the vineyards and olives.
According to the court transcripts of Judges 15, the criminal mastermind behind the damage to the vineyards was actually that notorious enemy of property Samson.
That's why you don't let a fox guard your grapehouse.
Total threadjack, but Lee flipped out again this morning and told Nia she was done with her, called the on-call worker to let him know she was done, and so I guess that's it. We have a meeting tomorrow to decide whether both girls will be moved or just Nia. I'd had tentative plans to move out on my own if Lee made the call to disruption so I could have Nia and Selah and have partial custody of Mara, but there's probably not time to implement that now. I am livid and heartbroken and confused and now have to keep the girls out of the house all day and act normal to prevent any further hostility. FUCK.
Oh Gosh, T. Hope a path forward emerges.
Oh, Thorn. So very, very sorry. Take care. Is there anything you need? (PS, why can't Lee move out if she is done? You could work it out more thoughtfully later.)
Thorn, also very sorry, and hoping this somehow works out.
26: I doubt she'd be receptive to it. She sees this as her house, which is legally what it is. We'll see. The workers are going to be brainstorming alternate plans, but none of them will work unless she complies, which she hasn't been doing and apparently won't be willing to do, though I'm sure she'd offer to do whatever it takes to keep the baby. Then I need to decide if I agree to that because I love all three kids and want to raise them or refuse to do any partial plan and let Selah go to someone better than us. I don't know. I'm trying not to overthink it, but I've been thinking of alternate plans for weeks now as this seemed more likely.
oh god. I hope that plans are found.
I hope you manage to work something out that suits you and the girls, Thorn. People are thinking about you.
And thanks. I'm too preoccupied to be polite. I'm taking Nia and Selah for the day and just have to focus on them and not whether it's our last anything. Mara threw a fit and wouldn't get dressed and is staying with Lee, won't talk about whether it's because she was upset overhearing the fight and then having Nia say goodbye to her. She moved to new families this week in two consecutive years and this can be a prickly time for her anyway, and losing a sister or sisters won't help. But when I feel like even I can't do anything, it helps to know that people care.
Nia is sitting here asking what our Christmas plans will be and I just can't.
Also very sorry and hoping something works out for you and especially the girls.
That's heartbreaking Thorn, I'm so sorry.
Very sorry to hear that, Thorn. Good luck. If there's anything unfogged could do to help, you should definitely ask.
(Also, while I'm clearly not in any position to judge, it seems harsh that Lee says she is through with Nia but is willing to keep the baby, who joined the family more recently.)
I'm so sorry for you and the girls.
Oh Thorn. I'm so sorry. I'll be thinking of you and the girls.
Thorn, so sorry. Hoping for you and the kids.
36 seconded in it's entirety.
That sounds terrible. I know that you've mentioned a couple of times that life has been difficult and stressful, but I never imagined that you (or Lee in this case) were close to that sort of breaking point.
Very sorry to hear that Thorn. Good luck and positive woo.
I'm so sorry to hear that, Thorn. That's... Wow. I really hope something will work out in the end.
I'm sorry, Thorn, that's terrible. I hope things work out as well as they can.
Best wishes Thorn. That sounds truly awful. Thinking of you.
We are thinking of you Thorn. It sounds like Lee is being awful.
Thorn, I'm thinking of you too. Good luck figuring it all out.
Oh, how awful. Wish you strength & ease.
I'm so sorry, Thorn. Keeping you all in my thoughts.
Agh, wow. I'm so sorry, Thorn.
I'm so sorry, Thorn. How awful for Nia and Mara--and for you! I'm sure, though, that you'll find a loving way to guide them through this terrible situation.
Thorn, what a fucking nightmare. Hugs from me.
Oh, wow, Thorn, that's awful. I hope some kind of workable plan can be found.
I'm sorry, Thorn. How long would you need to move someplace? Can it be done in stages?
58: Not sure. I just emailed neighbors who have a place, but if it's not going to do me any good to move, I'll take my time and try to make it better for Mara as much as it can be. It's very unclear to me what exactly will happen.
Thorn, this is awful. I'm so sorry.
Very sorry to hear about this, Thorn.
Crovids will preferentially go to mcdonalds bags over blank bags
How awful, Thorn. I'm so sorry. Words seem so inadequate here.
told Nia she was done with her
The whole thing is horrible but this has me angry still. How hurtful.
Just checked in for the first time today -- oh no, Thorn, this actually made me cry a lot. So sorry for you and your girls. We all know how much you love them. I'm so fucking sorry that love (and diligence, and sacrifice) isn't always enough.
Sorry for Laurie Anderson too. Man.
65: Yeah, I am not ever going to be okay about that. Kept Nia and Selah with my friends all afternoon. Nia did a great job cooking pumpkin scones and now we'll go to a pumpkin party. I'll bring them back home at Selah's bedtime and keep in control of everything. I just feel so awful for letting them be in this situation.
I'm sorry, Thorn. With descriptions alone you've inspired so many warm feelings for your family.
Good luck, Thorn. I'm sorry for your troubles.
I just feel so awful for letting them be in this situation.
No. Nuh uh. No. You didn't let this happen. This is not your fault. Lee did this. I am not going to judge her. I don't know what is going on with her that led her to say that. Maybe she's still a a good person who said a horrible, horrible thing. But she said it. She did. You didn't "let" that happen. Lee made it happen. Beating yourself up won't help anyone. Be angry at Lee. Let Nia know it's okay to be angry at Lee. Let Nia know that you are angry at Lee for saying something so awful.
Oh Thorn, I'm so so fucking sorry. You know it's not the way for an adult to behave though. Sending love.
Sorry, Thorn. Feel free to get in touch if you can think of anything at all I can do to help.
I want to second what Di said. You didn't let this happen.
Heartfelt agreement with 70.
Thorn, I am so, so sorry for you and your girls that you are going through this pain and grief. Please know that I am happy to do anything at all that a long-distance friend can do.
Just read about this and Thorn, sending you and the girls all the hugs I can. ms bill sends her best. You're a wonderful person, pls ask if I/we can help.
Third-ing the point that it was Lee who chose to say this to Mara. Lee always had the choice to express this to the other adults - you and the relevant social workers/other professionals - but nothing required that she say this to a child.
Best wishes for keeping everything moving forward as positively as possible given the circumstances.
Oh, God, Thorn, I am deeply, deeply sorry. It has always seemed so harsh to me that Lee had the legal rights when you were doing a huge chunk of the parenting and seemed more invested.
Biggest hug from over the internet.
One of the reasons Lee is the one with legal rights to Mara was that in the event of a breakup, it would be easier to prove I'd acted in a parental role in a way that would meet our state's stupid standards.
Once Lee saw how devastated I was, she stopped justifying herself and said she'd be willing to try anything to keep our family together (Nia probably not included as part of her definition, but as part of the plan) and that she'll tell the workers she's willing to do the intensive in-home therapy for Nia and her that we've been trying to get started. I don't know if this will change anything. It doesn't in terms of how I feel, but it's good to know it's an option of sorts. I just really don't want the girls to go back into foster care and don't think it's what's best for them, fucked up as we may be. But I've been ssentially single parenting for the last month to prove to myself I can do it if it comes down to it and that's the best option. I am really just focused on the girls' needs and not whatever's left of our relationship.
Lee also mentioned the option of moving and leaving us here, though I think it was a passive-aggressive move and I was supposed to respond that oh no, I'd never do that. The apartment (two floors of a house) down the block is not as cheap as I'd prefer especially when you compare it to our mortgage, but I could swing it if I needed to and Lee could get some kind of roommate here to help cover my current share of the bills. (I pay everything but mortgage and satellite, since I don't use the latter.)
One of the reasons Lee is the one with legal rights to Mara was that in the event of a breakup, it would be easier to prove I'd acted in a parental role in a way that would meet our state's stupid standards.
Weird.
Sounds like things have calmed down some. Just try to work through it as best you can. Warmest wishes.
Well, a better case would actually be if Lee died and some homophobic relative of hers wanted to raise Mara, it would be trivial to prove that I was Mara's living mother in a way that would satisfy the courts. But I didn't want anyone to thnk I was planning to smother Lee in her sleep or anything.
Lee also mentioned the option of moving and leaving us here, though I think it was a passive-aggressive move and I was supposed to respond that oh no, I'd never do that.
How did you actually respond?
Oh Thorn. What a shock and hassle and shame. Hoping that the path isn't as rocky as it looks. You can do what you must.
I'm so sorry Thorn, I hope things work out for you and the girls. What a difficult and strange situation to navigate when there's no agreement on who's in the family.
Sending you thoughts of love and support Thorn. Very angry that this has happened, and hoping for a solution that works for you and your girls.
81: I said that we'd be discussing possible options at the meeting and I'm not sure how financially feasible that one would be but that it's good she's thinking ahead. Also rather passive-aggressive but OH WELL.
Wow, that's tough, Thorn. Also 70 is correct.
I hope you and Lee can find a way to work this out.
Lee insists she didn't say she was done TO Nia, though Nia was there when she said it to me. (Though she just said, "I'm done!" and didn't specify the context.) So maybe that's a little better at least in her mind. Nia is not (yet) upset about it and definitely doesn't realize that anything has changed. If anything, she's probably proud she and Lee were able to argue and she was able to keep it together and not go into a full tantrum....
I just got through Selah's final early intervention session, where the developmental interventionist marveled at all the growth she's had here and how well she's doing now that she's in her "forever home" and how much she clearly loves being a little sister and is learning from the big girls. I didn't say anything about what's going on and didn't cry, but it all hurts. And Selah's former foster family just had a baby return home, so they have an opening and she could just get moved back to them and they might be willing to adopt this time if that's what the state decides. I'm trying not to think about that because it just makes me feel sicker.
Very sucky, Thorn. My deep sympathies. Glad it hasn't penetrated to Nia yet.
Okay, the goal is to keep all of us in the home as a family of five. We'll be getting intensive wraparound services and Lee and I will go back to couples counseling and there will also be parenting classes for us. We have things to work on at home to improve Lee's parenting and the girls' experience. But everyone agreed that moving any of the kids is not in their best interests, thank goodness. I am so relieved, because my real goal was to keep the girls together and seeing Lee be so genuine in her willingness to finally learn and do better was also a relief, though I know it will be a process.
90: Very happy to hear this! A great relief!
90: Good news! Best of luck to all of you. I'm glad you're getting help, and I'm sure the girls are resilient. I do hope you get the present, helpful, involved co-parent you deserve.
That's so nice to hear. Best of luck.
Jesus, Thorn, what a nightmare. All my best to you.
90 is good news. I hope things continue to get better. Bets of luck.
Thanks for sharing the good news, Thorn.
Good. I'm not sure what they are, but I suspect that everyone should have extensive wraparound services.
The perceived need for extensive wraparounds is a result of lobbying by Big Porch.
98 gets it right.
Glad to hear good news, I had been worrying about you.
But everyone agreed that moving any of the kids is not in their best interests, thank goodness. I am so relieved,
Just to confirm, "everyone" in that sentence includes Lee, correct? From the rest of the paragraph that appears to be the case, but that sounds like a big shift to make in a day.
102.Last: Yeah, last night she thought through the impact on Mara and anticipated impact on me (breakup) and all of a sudden it seemed like a better idea to finally figure out how to improve her parenting skills to make things work. Supposedly this was a huge wakeup call for her, and I hope that's the case.
I'm not sure what the wraparound services will be, but in-home therapy probably mostly focused on the two of them, connections with Nia's teacher if needed, help getting us parents better supports, that sort of thing. This was already in the works because Nia has been having a hard time and one of the best things that came out of the meeting was a push to get a message to Nia from her mom somehow from the supervisor level, since the caseworker who could make that happen has been consistent about not wanting to bother with it. I think hearing from her mom what I've heard from her mom, that her mom wants her to do well and if she has to be adopted wants it to be by us so that she won't have any more moves, could help a lot and having some good people working on making that happen gives me a lot of hope.
Yes, 98 gets it right. You have a lot of people rooting for you, Thorn.
And now Lee, who took the rest of the day off work, is taking Nia to therapy (regular kid version) and I get to sit in a quiet house once Selah goes to sleep and then take a hot bath or something to get my stress level back down to manageable. This was a huge relief, but my back hasn't gotten the message yet.
a 'foxy' wine is one made with American grapes. it tastes like a musky wild animal.
http://www.winespectator.com/drvinny/show/id/48074
90, 103: Oh, I'm very glad to hear this. I am sure it won't be easy going forward, but I hope that with a concrete goal everything does get better, and that you have the support you need.
I'm glad she is coming around. I mostly agree with Di's advice that one shouldn't pretend or ignore angry or mean words. Children should see adults say "I didn't like your words. I am willing to move forward. But those words are not ok."
Ideally, Lee would also say "I regret saying bad words."
xoxo
shit thorn, that's all so fucked up, I, too was crying at the start, and to read to the end of the thread and have things hanging...stretched out over a deep horrible rift...and better chances, better words from lee at the end, I'm glad. you are an amazing person. you've helped me get perspective on family problems, and I'm grateful for it. I'm so glad lee is taking nia to her appointment, that seems really a positive gesture. I hope she is able to take those words back in her own way; they were few but bitter. and you deserve to be treated better! sorry. nothing is less helpful than people talking smack about your partner--this is true even of your close friends who are near you, holding your hands, while you tell them specifics about your problems, so people who don't even know the person are extra-useless, so please forgive me, but I couldn't help it.
Oh, if I minded too much when people talk smack about my partner, I wouldn't have started it. No one really knows what's going on with her and her long-term friends are as hurt and baffled and alienated as I am, but apparently seeing me sob Sunday night made her realize she didn't want to make me feel that bad and she needed to make some changes. We'll try to see our old couples counselor tomorrow, although now there's a conflict of interest because I saw her solo a few times. Lee had the baby all morning because I'm quite sick. And I learned a pitiful and important lesson that it shouldn't take until my fever hits 102 for me to realize I'm sick if I'm paying enough attention to my health and well-being.
Jesus, Thorn, I just read all this in the last 5 minutes and can't express how much I feel for you. I hope the recent stuff leads to some progress.
Something about this, "No one really knows what's going on with her and her long-term friends are as hurt and baffled and alienated as I am" makes me wonder if it's all really about something totally different going on with her. Some unacknowledged source of pain or something that makes her lash out or demand a special pampered role. I don't know, the job crisis from last year? Or the kids situation triggering old feelings from her own childhood. I get the impression that self-insight is a weak area for her so would she need some individual counselling too? Or maybe that's exactly something she won't consider.
(Something something something something)
ooh, the old "I have a 102-degree fever" routine, eh? yeah, that happens a lot when you're a kid, and doesn't make you feel truly awful until you reach 104, but 102 as an adult can be surprisingly like tripping on acid. "everything's so...three-dimensional. and...textured. and...dirty. I think I need to barf now."