Re: Fish Section

1

We've been eating a lot of tilapia and salmon. I think it's probably farmed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:31 AM
horizontal rule
2

Salmon, even farm raised, has about doubled in price the last 3-4 years.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:32 AM
horizontal rule
3

I saw your mom trolling a blog.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:32 AM
horizontal rule
4

Nuh-uh. My mom sincerely thinks Lou Reed sucks.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:36 AM
horizontal rule
5

Walk on the Wild Side is the bestest song ever.


Posted by: Heebie's Dad | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:40 AM
horizontal rule
6

Doo do doo do doo do do doo . . .


Posted by: The Colored Girls | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:46 AM
horizontal rule
7

2: Is it really? I don't normally do the grocery shopping anymore. Apparently, I brought home too many organic cheese doodles.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:47 AM
horizontal rule
8

The collapse of the fisheries means that fish sticks don't have any fish at all in them any more. (Just sticks.) No one noticed or cared.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:56 AM
horizontal rule
9

Tartar sauce is that good.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:57 AM
horizontal rule
10

Nuh-uh. My mom sincerely thinks Lou Reed sucks.

She's so vicious.


Posted by: Opinionated Drella | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:58 AM
horizontal rule
11

Here's a graph of commodity salmon prices over the past 30 years. A lot going on, so hard to characterize. A large U-shape bottoming in early 2000s with a lot of movement on top of that pattern. (I wonder if the decline part was due to the salmon farming industry developing?)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:02 AM
horizontal rule
12

I wonder if you can make a paleo lox sandwich. Maybe just roll capers and cream cheese in a sheet of lox.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
13

Except hold the capers.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
14

Fish is too (%^&^%* complicated. Overfishing? Farmed versus wild, minutae of fishing-technique variations I'm supposed to care about - troll and pole, what? Mercury? Every fish known by three different names? I 'm looking for black cod. No, wait, sablefish. No, wait, that's not actually the same thing after all!

Fuck it, I'm going to make black beans.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:08 AM
horizontal rule
15

In fact, Wikipedia has 1996 as the year when farmed harvest exceeded wild.

Numbers per Wikipedia. Wonder if wild tonnage has gone down since 2007?

Total salmon production (tonnes):
1982
Wild      558,864    75%
Farmed  188,132    25%
2007
Wild:       992,508    31%
Farmed:  2,165,321    69%


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:09 AM
horizontal rule
16

It's all pretty dynamic. This, on land: http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/back-from-the-brink-montana-ranchers-see-record-high-cattle/article_235751b0-3f14-11e3-adbd-001a4bcf887a.html


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:10 AM
horizontal rule
17

15.table: The Neolithic Revolution comes to the sea.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:10 AM
horizontal rule
18

I would not have expected the wild catch to have almost doubled since 1982.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:13 AM
horizontal rule
19

Your mom, on the other hand...


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:13 AM
horizontal rule
20

17: Also see chart on upper right-hand side of this Wikipedia article.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:14 AM
horizontal rule
21

Except hold the capers.

Capers like to cuddle.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
22

I remember that you could get salmon on sale for $4/lb several years ago, and the cheapest I've seen in the last year is $8. Smoked salmon hasn't gone up quite that much but still significant (I think the Costco 1lb used to be about $10, now $14-$15.)


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
23

Fish has seemed to be a luxury for as long as I can remember. Maybe it's that my parents had an exaggerated view of how expensive it is, and now their view is accurate. But I've always thought fish in general was something too expensive to buy at the supermarket.


Posted by: cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:19 AM
horizontal rule
24

Fish is too (%^&^%* complicated.

Monterey Bay Aquarium to the rescue!

I haven't noticed much of a change at my market, except that they often have whole sardines and mackerel recently.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
25

That index mundi site I linked in 11 has a wealth of information on commodity prices.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
26

24: I've never seen sardines except whole.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:29 AM
horizontal rule
27

The last 5 years for salmon have some big swings if that site is correct. A big peak in 2011, down to nearly half, and then another peak through most of this year with a very recent move to cheaper prices. Not sure how much those commodity swings come through in retail prices.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
28

At a store, I mean. Obviously, I've seen them after I've taken a bit from one.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
29

14 gets it right. There's also near insane lack of labeling control, so it's hard to be sure that you're comparing between prices for the same species, etc. Plus a lot of substitution -- Tilapia was a garbage fish until about 15 years ago. And the distribution network has also changed incredibly in the past 20 years -- I do live next to an ocean, but almost no fish sold here is caught locally, and the same is true for almost all major coastal US cities (with a very few species as exceptions, and New Orleans as an exception still).


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:32 AM
horizontal rule
30

At our Whole Foods yesterday they had a disconcerting amount of fresh, wild caught monkfish. It was on sale. I've never seen that much monkfish in one place before. The regular fish market never has that much.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:34 AM
horizontal rule
31

30: Per the recommendation at 24, monkfish is a good alternative.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
32

29: Galveston/Houston had a decent selection of local seafood when I lived there in late 70s/early 80s* but I wonder if that has held up.

*The fern bars were to die for...


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
33

27 -- Salmon is generally one of the better-managed fish; it's mostly either farmed (which provides quantity) or managed in Alaska(which probably has the best single fisheries management program in the world, not that this is saying that much) so it's not really the best tracking species for ocean collapse.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:36 AM
horizontal rule
34

I find the Monterey aquarium site largely not useful in practice -- the fisheries are so complicated, the labeling is so untrustworthy, and the site itself has so many caveats that except for a very few species on the far ends of the totally fine/totally horrible spectrum it's not that helpful as a guide in a restaurant or supermarket. Though I gave up on fish about a year ago and haven't tried it since, so maybe it's gotten better.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:40 AM
horizontal rule
35

33: Unfortunately shrimp seems to be the only other commodity tracked at that level.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:41 AM
horizontal rule
36

Totally possible I'm misreading it on my phone, but it looks like that index mundi graph is also for Norweigian farm raised salmon only?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:44 AM
horizontal rule
37

34: Has the paleo movement split? Are you an inland-paleo now?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:46 AM
horizontal rule
38

Anyhow, the world fish market is super fascinating. My door neighbor is some sort of operative for a Japanese fish syndicate of some kind, which seems to involve lots of travel and (probably imagined by me) shadiness.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:47 AM
horizontal rule
39

It is a little disappointing that the Aquatic Ape Hypothesis hasn't spawned a fad diet and lifestyle.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:48 AM
horizontal rule
40

You'd think the Chimp-pig hybrid hypothesis would be more popular, since it implies we should eat like garbage dumpsters as we do now.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
41

36: Yes, it is.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:53 AM
horizontal rule
42

I understand that eating carp is going to have to be a thing, because carp are taking over all of North America's inland waterways.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:54 AM
horizontal rule
43

a Japanese fish syndicate of some kind, which seems to involve lots of travel and (probably imagined by me) shadiness.

MARLON BRANDO
as
POLPO CORLEONE
in
THE CODFATHER


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
44

Basically, eat smaller cheaper fish in order to eat responsibly. I buy seafood from Korean markets, basically never at the grocery. I like mackerel, bluefish, herring, all of which are oily, wild-caught, and sustainably fished. Also, I really like squid-- grill in a basket with chorizo and pine nuts.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:59 AM
horizontal rule
45

I understand that eating carp jellyfish is going to have to be a thing, because carp jellyfish are taking over all of North America's inland waterways.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:00 AM
horizontal rule
46

I was at a Korean restaurant on Saturday and one of the side dishes was just a bowl of these really tiny fish. Per 44, must be sustainable even though I ate like 100 of them.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:01 AM
horizontal rule
47

Coincidentally, it is National Seafood Month.


Posted by: torrey pine | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:12 AM
horizontal rule
48

I love eating salmon so much and I wish it was cheaper :/


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:15 AM
horizontal rule
49

re: 46

Quite common to get fried whitebait as a starter or appetiser here.

Often spicy or salty as in:

http://www.channel4.com/4food/recipes/chefs/gordon-ramsay/chilli-and-spice-whitebait-recipe


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:32 AM
horizontal rule
50

43: "MARLIN", surely.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:34 AM
horizontal rule
51

Pittsburgh's great seafood market/seafood stand Wholey's has "Smelts" among its appetizers. They are about 4 inches long. Not familiar with eating whitebait. Juveniles? How tiny are they?


Posted by: cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:35 AM
horizontal rule
52

40 is amazing.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
53

51: Whoa-oh, here he comes
Watch out, smelts, he'll chew you up
Whoah-oh here he comes
He's a smelt-eater!

Composed by myself when Kai first discovered Wholey's smelts at about age 2 (maybe 1.5?) and put away a quarter pound at high speed. BOth my kids went through periods of loving smelts, and both still ike them quite a lot.

My understanding is that whitebait is similar, but even smaller.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 4:27 PM
horizontal rule
54

Also, I strongly concur with the discussion of salmon prices again. It was about '97 or '98 that I discovered how absurdly cheap Canadian salmon was at Wholey's* - typically $4.99, and often on sale for $3.99. I probably ate it 3 times a month for years.

Around 2004 I came to terms with just how bad Western hemisphere salmon farming is** and stopped buying it, but I always kept an eye on the price, and it started getting pricey just a couple years later, and now it's consistently $7.99 or $8.99.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure that farm-raised salmon grew the market for wild, and now wild salmon season is a (really) big thing, which it wasn't just 7-8 years ago.

Anyway, regarding other fish: I don't think any of them had the super-cheap phase farm salmon did, so price rises have been much more subtle - maybe average price a couple bucks more, from $9 to $11 for a non-exotic fillet. IOW, no real sign of scarcity.

OTOH, my understanding is that the forthcoming collapse of all fisheries is pretty much being driven by this dynamic: everything is getting caught because there's so much demand, but one day there just won't be enough fish for that, and suddenly sushi-grade tuna will be $75/lb, really just limited to the wealthy (and committed).

*it's actually just Wholey, but the standard Pittsburgh thing is to call all stores by their possessives, as if Old Man Aldi just opened up shop in the old Dodge dealership. Hard core locals call the main local chain "Giant Eagle's".

**Scottish and Norweigian are both raised in fjords where natural water currents flush away the poop, meaning that they don't need to be jacked up with antibiotics; I may actually have learned this here from ttaM


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 4:35 PM
horizontal rule
55

Weirdly, I just bought (what was labelled as) Atlantic cod at less than $6.00 a pound. It was "on sale" according to the nice man. Still unclear whether what we ate was actually cod, which I had thought was totally endangered at this point, but at that price, the old-timey salt-of-the-earth sea recipes in Cod begin to make sense.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 5:25 PM
horizontal rule
56

55: farmed, presumably.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 5:38 PM
horizontal rule
57

Oh shut up Sifu you don't know what you're talking about.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 5:39 PM
horizontal rule
58

re: 54.last

I think that's the case with some Scottish salmon, yeah. Some farms are in particularly fast flowing currents, too, so the fish are closer to wild salmon in size and density and don't suffer with lice. I watched a TV documentary about it.

I expect some other farms are just as crappy, intensive, and environmentally unfriendly as anywhere else, though.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 5:49 PM
horizontal rule
59

Actually, that reminded me of why the Seafood Watch site is so useless. How is JM supposed to know where the cod was caught, if it in fact is cod, and whether the cod was caught through "hook and line" or some other method. I understand that the MBA wants to give credit to people who are using the better methods in better fisheries but from a practical point of view the site ends up being pretty useless, except for a few unambiguous species.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 5:49 PM
horizontal rule
60

I used to think that salmon were beautiful majestic creatures that were part of the ecosystem and worthy of protection just for being one of Gaia's creatures.

Round about the third time my dog rolled ecstatically in one cast up on the banks after spawning, I decided at they're a pain in the ass and completely not worth it. If I could get my friend at the Department of Fish and Wildlife to put up a barrier that shuts down the whole American River run, I'd do it.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 5:57 PM
horizontal rule
61

Are crappie endangered?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 5:58 PM
horizontal rule
62

Well, it was Fairway, which is decently reputable around here. Whole Foods is really good about origins and certifications, so I wondered a bit.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 6:19 PM
horizontal rule
63

You have a ways to go before you could call yourself Seafood Tweety.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 6:21 PM
horizontal rule
64

63 to everyone.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 6:22 PM
horizontal rule
65

If you're willing to drive about half an hour from here, you can buy fresh fall Chinook salmon directly from the members of the various tribes that have rights to the Columbia River run. It's about $8/lb (up from $2-3 10 years ago, which bears out the price escalation mentioned upthread), but that's still a bargain for incredibly delicious fish that will put you off Atlantic salmon forever.

||This entire postseason is giving me a fucking hemorrhage.|>


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 6:47 PM
horizontal rule
66

||This entire postseason is giving me a fucking hemorrhage.|>

srsly.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 6:50 PM
horizontal rule
67

The last half-inning may have burst a few more blood vessels, what with Lester hitting for himself and the catcher trying to score on a short single with two outs.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:14 PM
horizontal rule
68

And nearly managing it!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:20 PM
horizontal rule
69

Guys are looking pretty good right now. No idea what StL was thinking leaving Wainright in.


Posted by: CCarp | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:21 PM
horizontal rule
70

Yeah, I'm sure this will jinx it, but the way Lester's been pitching, how can you pull him there? Especially with the way the bullpen's been taxed lately.

Haha Ortiz infield single.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
71

Lester has been stunning so far.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:32 PM
horizontal rule
72

He has been pitching well, definitely. But he'd pitched six innings already. I'd think a fresh reliever would be at least as good as a starter who'd gone six innings. And one of their regular starters was available to pinch-hit.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:33 PM
horizontal rule
73

But his pitch count like like 74; it's still only 81, an inning later. When he's pitching like that, looking like he could go 8 if not 9, you can't pull him.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:35 PM
horizontal rule
74

This game is still too close. I want a ten run lead.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:38 PM
horizontal rule
75

I dunno if I like this switch. Gaaaah.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:45 PM
horizontal rule
76

What I meant to say was wooo Koji time no worries.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
77

Lester could probably have closed it out, but man do I love watching Uehara.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:46 PM
horizontal rule
78

Won't somebody think of cheer for the children Cardinals?


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:49 PM
horizontal rule
79

Blume's family doesn't comment here.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 7:51 PM
horizontal rule
80

I'm kinda rooting for the Cards, in a very flimsily supported sort of way*.

*Ongoing bitterness about Red Sox fans being generally annoying (present company excluded, of course), but not as annoying as Yankees fans.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:00 PM
horizontal rule
81

OH GOD PHEW YEAH


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:01 PM
horizontal rule
82

Phew


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:01 PM
horizontal rule
83

Perhaps the shortest game of the playoffs, too.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:01 PM
horizontal rule
84

So who was playing who and for what?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:04 PM
horizontal rule
85

Grown men playing each other for the profits of a monopoly capitalists.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:07 PM
horizontal rule
86

ah!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:08 PM
horizontal rule
87

And spectators cheering for laundry.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:08 PM
horizontal rule
88

Displaying the universally recognized symbol of surrender seems like a peculiar way of cheering on one's favored team.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:13 PM
horizontal rule
89

That's what that mean? Shit. People must think we're horrible.


Posted by: Opinionated Nazi | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 8:38 PM
horizontal rule
90

This year's Alaska salmon harvest was the biggest on record, and the second most valuable. I think Halford's probably right, though, that salmon isn't a very good indicator of marine ecosystem health for several reasons.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:51 PM
horizontal rule
91

*Ongoing bitterness about Red Sox fans being generally annoying

Don't be a cunt, Stanley.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 9:59 PM
horizontal rule
92

You are correct Stanley. Unfortunately Cardinals fans are worse, and even more racist.


Posted by: Rob the Masshole | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
93

Also, this is a good World Series, apart from unfortunately taking place at all.


Posted by: Rob the Masshole | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 10:09 PM
horizontal rule
94

There's the Masshole!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 10:14 PM
horizontal rule
95

It was kind of fun to watch the game on BT Sport. Commercials for upcoming soccer games. And a Barclays commercial honoring soccer fans which seemed to feature a mainly stiff upper lips in the face of despair and hopelessness.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 10:48 PM
horizontal rule
96

When I was watching Sox games on a pirate stream from India, I found the commercials kind of interesting. Apparently there are many put-upon Indian men whose wives and bosses and parents will not let them simply relax and watch some cricket--but luckily for them, there's a new company or satellite channel or something that will solve this problem, somehow.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 10-28-13 11:58 PM
horizontal rule
97

soccer fans which seemed to feature a mainly stiff upper lips in the face of despair and hopelessness.

Sounds about right.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 10-29-13 1:04 AM
horizontal rule
98

I guess I'm supporting the Cardinals. It's just hard to work up much enthusiasm. "Oh, that World Series thing again?"


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 10-29-13 5:08 AM
horizontal rule