Re: Pop, pop, pop music

1

just trolling for feminists

Isn't the correct form "trolling feminists"?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 7:02 AM
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If her fan base didn't contain so many young girls (including, to some extent, mine), I'd call it an interesting attempt to play with ideas about commodification. As it is, though, it is just irresponsible.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 7:02 AM
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How does she pronounce "body"?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 7:07 AM
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I wouldn't mind reading a bit more about lithe nudies.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 7:23 AM
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4: Because feminist.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 7:27 AM
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"Do What U Want" (feat. R. Kelly)

Look out, Ms. Gaga! He wants to urinate on your body.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 7:48 AM
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She's safe; she's too old for him.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 7:50 AM
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5: I don't like to call myself a hero, but, you know.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 7:51 AM
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The "you won't use my mind" line really stands out on pop radio.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 8:07 AM
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2
Is it LG's responsibility to cultivate her fan base, or is it her responsibility as an artist to put out work?
I'm asking because I'm surprised by how much I actually like her stuff--it seems pretty stand-out-serious-stuff against all the other pop music. I'd prefer she keeps doing this, rather than adjusting her music to the taste of ten-year old anyone.


Posted by: Mentioner | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 9:37 AM
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I have to admit I've gone from finding her (Lady Gaga) mildly interesting and sort of liking a few of her first big singles/videos, to fairly actively disliking. The po-faced pronouncements, the evident seriousness with which she takes herself, her bullshit aspirations to 'art'. Her music is pretty pedestrian, and it doesn't live up to the hype she invests in it. There's nothing wrong with making fun pop music, but hers isn't [to me] particularly good fun pop music, and the additional layers of pretension detract.

I know some of her more po-faced pretentious stuff is basically conscious trolling but that doesn't rescue it for me.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 9:45 AM
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Sounds like Zizek.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 9:55 AM
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The worst part for me is that she performed this as a duet with R. Kelly on SNL. R. Kelly!


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:13 AM
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Realizing that your favorite pop star does not share your values and/or is going off the rails is an important developmental stage for 10-year-old girls, especially the ones who will grow up to be sanctimonious and ditch their friends at the slightest sign of needless drama that might distract from finishing the lab report. I almost think it's a bigger problem that parents and others do occasionally tell kids that "good" celebrities are good role models for them, or that TV is poisonous but children's books (some of which are HELLA MESSED UP WHOA) are always okay. Treat everything with suspicion! I don't have any experience intervening in the lives of vulnerable kids subject to abuse, though, which is probably where the celebrity-cathexis/bad-messages-at-home combo is the biggest problem. This does not seem like a good song for them.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:14 AM
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OH SURE, AND I'M THE ASSHOLE


Posted by: OPINIONATED ROBIN THICKE | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:15 AM
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Annie Lennox has a better voice, and she sings Christmas Carols rather than making herself an addled Madonna retread.

As far as the shitty message, the solution to bad speech is more speech-- surely a rumpled parent mumbling sentence fragments about general principles will outweigh a pop star on the TV.

"I was just a backseat driver in the car of love" is an actual line from the Chi-Lites smoothass song Stoned Out of My Mind


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:16 AM
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(To clarify the above: hyperbole and hysteria begins at "especially" and ends with "suspicion"; rest is basically sincere.)


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:17 AM
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I kinda want to go to bat for these lyrics. Sure they're fucked up in a way, but it's striking and memorable. Just because you don't agree with a particular sentiment doesn't lessen the value of capturing the sentiment well.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:40 AM
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Come to think, this is probably on the album Sally just excitedly obtained. Art Pop? I think?

Parentally, I have total faith in my mumbled sentence fragments as keeping my children's psyches from harm. Or I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and trying not to think about it too hard.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:43 AM
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Eh, don't feel bad, LB. My 6-year-old is reading Twilight.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:45 AM
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The worst part for me is that she performed this as a duet with R. Kelly on SNL. R. Kelly!

Just after she collaborated in a performance piece with Jeff Koons. Jeff Koons!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:45 AM
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At 6, I'd be more impressed by the literacy than worried about anything negative she's going to pick up from it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:46 AM
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Don't we all already know that lyrics to pop songs don't matter and don't affect behavior.

I mean I guess I have at some points been "going off the rails on a crazy train" but.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:49 AM
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Watching Key and Peele the other night, we realized that Sally may have a future in the music industry as a hype man -- Peele's character is very much Sally when she's on a tear.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:50 AM
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21,22: Be impressed until she decides to try Stephen King's It. I did that a little later, but not much, and it wasn't a good choice.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:50 AM
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At a similar age, I picked up John Gardner's Grendel. I can still make myself shudder just by thinking about the cover.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:52 AM
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I read Joseph Wambaugh's "The Choirboys" at age 9 or so. The plot, as I remember it:

- Cops drink constantly
- Cops have sex with fat women
- Cops bully and make fun of each other
- Cop commits suicide because of peer pressure
- Cops beat up people for no reason
- Racism


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 10:58 AM
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I started reading the crime section of the local paper too young.

Is this a Scared Straight type exercise, do not let your children do what I have done here in the house of the rising sun, just maybe yyou can still escape a fate of internet commenting.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 11:03 AM
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I vividly remember reading a book about a woman with multiple personalities when I was 9 or 10. It detailed all the sexual abuse required to have your personality split 12 different ways.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 11:08 AM
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I read a similar thread when I was seven years younger than I am now.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 11:14 AM
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30: That last comment about displaying symptoms in alphabetic order is brilliant!


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 11:15 AM
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6: Have you introduced her to the work of Tamora Pierce?


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 11:21 AM
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Aren't these lyrics mostly pro-pron feminist? I guess I'd have a stronger case if it were "I'll do what I want with your body", but isn't the story: dudes a chump, she's not gonna let him control her, but sure, go ahead, pound away, that sounds fun.


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 11:28 AM
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26: I had been forbidden a variety of books as a child, ranging from The Lord of the Rings to Bleak House and the Phillip Marlowe stories, all on the theory that I was not mature enough to understand them.

I read the Phillip Marlowe stories in secret when I was 11ish, and Red Harvest was really upsetting. I remember thinking that perhaps my parents had been right.

Although actually given that I also read Clockwork Orange, Lord of the Flies, a whole bunch of Stephen King and a lot of miscellaneous Anthony Burgess other than Clockwork Orange around that time - oh, and a lot of Harlan Ellison - good old Dashiell Hammett was pretty lightweight. Honestly, there ought to be some genre theory which encompasses mid-century creepy-white-dudes-with-reactionary-ideas which could encompass Burgess, Golding, Ellison, Phillip Larkin, Donald Davie and maybe Mailer. (I mean, I like quite a lot of Davie and Larkin because I have terrible taste in poetry, and Ellison doesn't think he's a reactionary, but still.)

There is some hilarity in how my parents forbade me Dashiell Hammett but actually bought me a Stephen King anthology. They are very unworldly and did not, I think, realize how much gore and uneasy-making material was therein.

They would never, never have let me buy pop music at Sally's age, though. Or watch regular television. I still remember when they realized that I was watching One Day At A Time reruns and told me I had to stop.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 11:59 AM
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29: I think I read that same book. I also don't remember what it was called, or who the author was. I do remember it was quite harrowing.


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:00 PM
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36

You guys aren;t thinking of Sybil are you?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:01 PM
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33 Seconded. Do the parents here really feel that a message of wanting casual sex with some dude who they think is hot but don't want a romantic relationship with is something that they should warn their daughters about? There's a broader issue of the prevalence of sexual (self) objectification in pop culture and the general objectification of women but much of that is an aggregate problem with many specific instances, like this one, pretty innocuous in isolation.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:05 PM
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35: I bet the book was called When Rabbit Howls. Another book that was not forbidden by my parents, but oh, it should have been. Way too much sensationalizing of sexual abuse. Also, apparently, total nonsense on the scientific front.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:06 PM
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39

Oh, and it wasn't Phillip Marlowe; it was the Continental Op. The Phillip Marlowe stories were much less traumatizing.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:08 PM
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The African Queen was the most harrowing of the Phillip Marlowe stories.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:09 PM
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At 6, I'd be more impressed by the literacy than worried about anything negative

Honestly, I'm pretty laissez faire about it. I did draw the line at Carrie, which she saw a trailer for and has been obsessed with seeing ever since (quote: "I think Carrie doesn't have a good relationship with her mother."). But she is indeed crazy off the charts with the reading level.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:13 PM
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42

Just because you don't agree with a particular sentiment doesn't lessen the value of capturing the sentiment well.

and

Don't we all already know that lyrics to pop songs don't matter and don't affect behavior. I mean I guess I have at some points been "going off the rails on a crazy train" but.

There are too many of you all being annoying for me to keep quoting. The point is that she's trolling feminists and just trying to get a rise out of people. Not that the lyrics are actually going to make young girls go off the rails on a crazy train.

Stop being annoying.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:20 PM
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43

The African Queen is nothing like The Big Sleep. Moby lied.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:21 PM
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Was it good anyway?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:23 PM
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just trying to get a rise out of people

That's essentially her entire career, isn't it?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:25 PM
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I suppose so. Here the shtick grates.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:30 PM
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"Young girls" is throwing me a bit. I may be confused, because I don't listen to any of this, but Lady Gaga isn't primarily marketing to pre-teens, I don't think -- it's not like she's Miley Cyrus as Hannah Montana. If she were, I'd get feministy judgier about appropriateness. But as an adult pop star who, even if she's appealing to teenage girls, isn't making children's music, I come down sort of where tkm does, with maybe a larger helping of "Eh, it's pop music."


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:30 PM
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42 to 47. Will you all stop accusing me of clutching pearls.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:33 PM
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Not exactly doing that -- I'm just thinking that this doesn't even seem like enough to call trolling.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:37 PM
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50

Oh. Well maybe not.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:39 PM
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49-50: You have to admit she's kind of into evil clowning, though.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:42 PM
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Sure, that's her schtick, basically, as far as I know.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:44 PM
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Was wondering if it theoretically possible for the troller to be "dead" in the way that the author is now dead*. Think not since authorial (or curatorial) intention is an essential part of the definition.

*And therefor heebie is *right* if she genuinely feels trolled**.

**Unless she's trolling us, in which case 42 and 47 are well-played.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:47 PM
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As long as nobody's accusing me of getting my panties in a twist over these lyrics. For some reason that's the most irritating misreading of the OP.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:48 PM
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Look, if you're going to slut-shame and not expect to be called out for it, I don't know what to say.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:50 PM
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54: The annoyance being that she is attempting to troll you, but that she has in fact not done so successfully because that would manifest itself as some sort of response to the provocation?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:51 PM
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Obviously the trolling has been successful, since heebie made this post.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:52 PM
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56: Yes! but no! Except where I come out winning.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:53 PM
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If the OP isn't intended to express some concern about Gaga's messaging to young girls, it's pretty poorly written.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:54 PM
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That slutty slutbag better keep her cougar paws off my daughter's snatch I'm not being trolled.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:54 PM
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getting my panties in a twist over these lyrics

I assumed that was just to keep the chicken legs from falling out.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:55 PM
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I find the song deliberately obnoxious, because she's fucking with feminists. She's not successfully fucking with this feminist, but solidarity.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:56 PM
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The point is that she's trolling feminists and just trying to get a rise out of people.

So, she's just trolling feminists, not trolling you. Because... you're not a feminist? That's odd. It's also odd that the OP starts off by saying "I feel like I'm being trolled by these Lady Gaga lyrics, right?" Since that's not what you're saying at all, apparently.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:57 PM
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64

Go ahead and say "63 without seeing 62" right?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:58 PM
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62: Ah, I get it... she's just trolling the stupid feminists. The OP wasn't clear on this point.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:58 PM
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66

Stupid feminists? Of course not. The shrill ones.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 12:59 PM
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67

Which feminists is she fucking with, heebie? Are you actually aware of any?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:00 PM
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68

56 -> 57 et. seq.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:00 PM
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69

I'M NOT SHRILL AND THERE'S NO CHICKEN IN MY TWAT.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:00 PM
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67: I'm pretty sure there are colleagues of mine that, if they saw an article calling out this song, would vehemently post it on FB. There sure were a lot of people who hated on Miley recently, and this seems a lot clunkier a provocation.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:02 PM
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You should loop 69 over a pounding electronica beat. And maybe wear a meat dress.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:02 PM
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71 made me laugh out loud.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:05 PM
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I am the combination KFC and Twat-o Bell.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:07 PM
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The Heebie Paradox:

"Attempts to annoy me, even if unsuccessful, annoy me."


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:09 PM
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75

That's a fair summary. Feminists are easy punching bags. (Don't go for the fruit.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:13 PM
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69: I'm trying to picture the circumstances under which someone would successfully explain to some earlier version of you how you would come to type that sentence (attributed to a pseudonym) in a place where it would be relatively easily accessible to literally billions of people (many of whom could not read it, admittedly).


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:18 PM
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Or to me that I would respond to it. "Vannevar Bush's Memex ain't the half of it, little boy."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:20 PM
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I'm generally touchy as all get out on feminist stuff, but I'm still not seeing exactly what set you off on this one -- clearly, it's pro- I don't know what to call it, maybe not totally empowered or self-actualized or whatever sex. But what makes you think it's meant particularly to get a rise out of feminists, rather than oh, virginity pledge types?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:22 PM
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Aren't the lyrics just kinda watered-down Peaches?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:23 PM
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Well, if she were talking about having a sex drive and wanting lots of sex, she'd be trolling the virginity police. But as long as she doesn't want them to do whatever, then I think the evangelicals aren't exactly being trolled.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:25 PM
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Maybe she just needs a bosom for a pillow.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:30 PM
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82

The R. Kelly part of the song is pretty unambiguously sexist, though I don't think it's exactly trolling feminists:

I could be the drink in your cup
I could be the green in your blunt
Your "pusha" man, ya I got what you want
You wanna escape all of the crazy shit
You're the Marilyn, I'm the president
And I'd love to hear you sing, girl

Do what I want
Do what I want with your body
Do what I want
Do what I want with your body


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:31 PM
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I mean, unless "trolling" means "peeing on."


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:31 PM
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84

When did we start saying this song was about casual sex? I thought it was clear that it was about her relationship with the media, and thus she is saying "Sure, commodify my body."

This actually goes along well with another part of Art/Pop where she says "One second I'm a Koons, then suddenly the Koons is me."

Poly Styrene struck a similar pose, only with more bitterness and irony. I think it is a legitimate statement for an artist to make. I suppose I shouldn't complain that her fan base skews young. If Caroline starts listening to this song, I can give her a little talk about commodification that she will ignore because everything I say is stupid and boring

Really the main problem here is that the only worse artist she could have picked to team up with would be Hirst.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:34 PM
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Because I'm pretty sure that's what R. Kelly wants to do.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:34 PM
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Even if it were about casual sex, "you can do what you want with my body," isn't exactly the most empowered approach to it.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:36 PM
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"One second I'm a Koons, then suddenly the Koons is me."

StabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStabStab


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:39 PM
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One second I'm a Koons

So racist.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:41 PM
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Sort-of on the topic of pop music:

Architecture Could Use Some Help From Kanye West

Our very own Armsmasher doing the Slate-thing, trolling the architects.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/11/19/kanye_west_speaks_on_architecture_at_harvard_graduate_school_of_design_more.html


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:44 PM
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First there is a pop star, then there is no pop star, then there is.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:45 PM
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This actually goes along well with another part of Art/Pop where she says "One second I'm a Koons, then suddenly the Koons is me."

I thought she was saying "Kunst".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:46 PM
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The beginning seems to be about media, but once the R. Kelly bit starts up it's hard to argue it's not about sex. No reason one song can't be both, but either way, most people are not really listening to the lyrics in any detail and aren't going to get much more out of it than "do what you want with my body," which in isolation sounds a lot more sexual than it does like a commentary on the media. Whether it's feminist, or trolling, or whatever is above my pay grade.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:47 PM
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She's alluding to the folk-song lyrics --

My body you may imprison,
My heart you can't confine


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:55 PM
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94

Methinks the 'you' of the song is polyvalent


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 1:58 PM
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95

It would have been better if Kelly had just echoed "you can do what you want with my body," and then Gaga would say "No, no, you can do what you want with my body," and then Kelly would echo "You can do what you want with my body," and then Gaga would say "Dammit, we can't both be submissives here."


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 2:07 PM
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96

Speaking of pop music, did everybody but me know about stuff like this? Is that why people seem more annoyed with them than I figured they should be based on the music?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 2:12 PM
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Definitely polyvalent. One target, according to the fan sites, is a high-profile blogger that's basically made a hobby out of stalking her, getting or sourcing unflattering photos, and then making fun of her body. "Then you print some crazy sh*t that makes me wanna scream" is early in the song, and so specific to the media that it never occurred to me to feel trolled.


Posted by: Cady | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 2:15 PM
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The R. Kelly verse is definitely meant to be ambiguous. Sure, it can be read as sexist or sex-referencing, but I heard it literally: let me give you an escape, a chance to relax away from the spotlights. Possibly doing things that the media would LOVE to have pictures of but yo! they're not invited!


Posted by: Cady | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 2:23 PM
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84, 91, etc.: wait, did I not actually post that comment about thinking the line was "One second I'm a K√ľnstlerin, suddenly the Kunst is me"? Goddamn it. I was so happy about that line. I was picturing her switching between Die blaue Engel and Nina Hagen on her preferred multimedia device. I don't know what a Koons is, unless it's her pet name for de Kooning.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 3:16 PM
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36: It was way way worse than Sybil. I think Sybil only has one sexual abuse part. This has like 10. Amazingly, I remembered that the woman's name is Kit Castle. Here's the book.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 5:09 PM
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re: 95

Heh. Like Kool Keith? With Princess Superstar?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 5:10 PM
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102

re: 96

I don't know. I always hated their music pretty much solely for the music [although I liked their last single].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 5:11 PM
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99: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Koons


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 11-19-13 6:41 PM
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