Re: ATM: The Fragile Christians

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Wow. This seems like a poor strategy. Just what were the poor dears going to do that made muzzling you necessary? Something very Christian?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:11 AM
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There are a whole host of issues where I was taught to lay low and not speak up, where I feel conflicted about encouraging my kids to be awesome and speak out.

Lesson 1 needs to be, choose your time and place carefully. If you're not sure about the time or place let it go. Good times and places include when not speaking up would compromise your sense of who you are, and when speaking up has a snowball's chance in hell of having any positive impact.

How you start to explain this stuff to a 4-year-old, I haven't a fucking clue.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:16 AM
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1: I think my parents were worried that there would be social ostracism and that teachers might not give a shit, because I had it coming or something.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:19 AM
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We haven't had to deal with this for religion, but have for foster care, adoption, having gay moms, having incarcerated parents, probably other stuff. I haven't actually used it yet because the girls aren't quite old enough, but for school-aged children I've heard really good things about the WISE Up approach. "The "W.I.S.E. Up!" tool is based on the premise that adoptive children are wiser about adoption than peers who are not adopted. The tool uses the acronym W.I.S.E. to teach children four options for responding to uncomfortable questions: W (walk away), I (ignore or change the subject), S (share what you are comfortable sharing), and E (educate about adoption in general)."

It seems like that might be an appropriate system for talking about a lot of uncomfortable things. Our girls know they don't have to answer any questions they don't want to (except from a doctor/therapist/lawyer/caseworker, generally while a mom is there) and we practice not-lying-but-not-whole-truth answers for things they might say if they don't want to get into the whole story.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:25 AM
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Oh, that's fantastic. It doesn't map perfectly onto religion, but having an acronym with options is a great way of helping a kid navigate a situation.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:27 AM
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I think the first part of your parent's advice -- not to bring up religion in personal conversation -- is a good one. People are raised differently and their different beliefs can't be cured via polite conversation. There's no reason that they should be either. To try to use a personal relationship to change a person's beliefs is rude. I don't know about the second part of the advice. It's essentially the question of what to do when someone is being rude to you. The answer to that is context dependent. You can't always throw a punch, but you can't never throw a punch.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:31 AM
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5: There's a book, but I haven't bought it yet because I'm lazy and half-assed about systematic parenting, but I need to get it soon because I think it will help Nia process her adoption stuff.

On that note, and totally hijacking early, any advice on answers to "How will my mom not be my mom anymore after her rights are terminated?" in a way that makes sense? Especially because we're a home where the answer is that she'll always be your mom, but a judge is saying that she doesn't get any more chances to try to take care of you the right way and you need to have parents who can do the mom jobs for the rest of your life.... But that doesn't seem to be enough for her, which is understandable because it's a big, messy question.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:31 AM
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And the question of what to do when people are simply being assholes, and there's no chance of redeeming their behavior, will always be present. You wouldn't want your child to always avoid conflict, or suck up to perceived power.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:36 AM
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any advice on answers to "How will my mom not be my mom anymore after her rights are terminated?" in a way that makes sense?

Oh god, that's a tough one. Maybe distinguishing between you and Lee, who make rules and keep you safe, and biological mom, who no longer gets to make rules anymore?

I can't imagine I'm suggesting anything that isn't elementary compared with the types of things you already do.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:43 AM
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People are raised differently and their different beliefs can't be cured via polite conversation.

People change their beliefs to adjust to new information, and one way such information is transmitted is via polite conversation.

But I also think this misconstrues the nature of the problem under discussion. Self-expression has important purposes beyond changing other peoples' minds.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:45 AM
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To try to use a personal relationship to change a person's beliefs is rude.

I wonder if it's possible to have a worthwhile personal relationship that doesn't involve at least the risk of one's beliefs being changed. I can't imagine it.

I've had professional relationships where an effort to change my beliefs would be inappropriate - Jesus, my dentist is annoying - but I can't imagine a personal relationship that I'd view that way.

But it's possible I'm using the word "personal" in a fashion different from the way that you are.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:51 AM
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10: People don't typically change religious beliefs because different beliefs are expressed in a conversation. And there's no reason they should. I don't think I've misconstrued the nature of the problem, but rather addressed the specific subject -- religion -- which heebie brought up. And of course you haven't.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:51 AM
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11: Or it's possible that you're not actually talking about the subject at hand, which is introducing religion into a conversation.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:53 AM
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I just watched 7 Up Plus. Most of the kids, asked about religion, said they didn't believe in God or were indifferent on the subject. Quite a culture clash - I can't imagine such a thing in 1971 US.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:53 AM
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7.2: Maybe emphasize the relieving of responsibility from the biological mother, as something that also helps her in a sense?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:55 AM
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What to say when asked about religion is hard. I think in TX, I'd be more worried about attempted conversion/proselytization and breaking someone's belief system (however lousy) than ostracism. I think the answer follows from that. If another kid learns that yours aren't Xtian, they might want to invite them to church or "save" them - I think the response to that would guide how they should discuss their beliefs (or lack thereof). If they're independent enough to shrug off another kid thinking they'll be damned for not accepting Jesus, it's probably OK. If they'd be bothered by it, maybe it's a good topic to avoid. I do think evangelicals who take the Bible as literal truth are much more fragile than those who take it as a metaphor. I mean, it's a bit like Santa. Once someone asks how Jesus could perform a miracle or some other impossibility, it is hard for a kid not to question the rest, especially at the age when they start realizing magic doesn't exist. Non-believing playmates might spoil Jesus.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:02 AM
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To the OP, I was brought up quite irreligiously not far from where you are now. I had no trouble being assertive about it. Admittedly that was in a chichi Montessori school, but religion was still the norm among my peers, and I remember it not being an issue with any prominence besides the occasional argument. It's been long enough that I think the same should apply now for you. If parents decide to be fragile about it, screw'em.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:04 AM
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I just asked my mother if there was any religious difficulty I wasn't hip to, and her memory is the same as mine.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:07 AM
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7.2 - Is this maybe a more practical and less philosophical question? I don't know how long it's been since her mother was the custodial parent, so maybe she's wondering whether something else will change? Like, maybe she's worried there will be less contact with her birth mother? Or maybe you could talk about the sorts of decisions her legal guardians make that is usually a bio-parent's job (but hasn't been for a while in her case)?


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:07 AM
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People don't typically change religious beliefs because different beliefs are expressed in a conversation.

12: I see this sort of sentiment expressed so often, I think that I must be some kind of freak. My religious views have changed radically, and polite conversation was an important catalyst for that change. The same with lots of other views about difficult subjects.

And perhaps I misunderstood heebie. I didn't take proseltyzing to be the issue in play. If that's what it is, I agree with you that proseltyzing is often inappropriate. Again: My own experience seems to be different from yours. My Jewish friends are like my gay friends, in that they've never made a serious effort to change my orientation. (Admittedly, especially in the latter case, this may be merely because I'm not an especially desirable recruit.)

I took the central issue to be self-expression, where my Jewish and gay friends have had some problems.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:09 AM
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19: Yeah, I think phrasing it as things the judge is in charge of now that will become our choice (most prominent among these contact with her mom) once rights are terminated and the case is closed, because she's keenly aware of some of those. So being able to take a trip without prior permission or spend the night with a friend or call her mom are all concrete things that arise out of the termination/adoption, but they don't necessarily explain much about what happens to her mom. I think we're sort of stuck with that.

To the OP, I had a friend from the sort of place where people would ask what church you went to who learned to say "We have church at home," even though it was pretty much the church of pancakes and smoked fish like your family has. But it gave the right signals to the people asking that they didn't inquire further and didn't feel the need to prosyletize.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:20 AM
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Definitely proselytizing is not under consideration.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:20 AM
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22: so ostracism and winy titty baby crying (on the part of the fragile Christians) are the potential outcomes that are worrisome?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:32 AM
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I'm assuming it was obvious in 16 I meant others trying to convert yours, not vice versa.

When I was in middle school, church was the center of some kids' social lives - lock-ins (sleepovers at the church on Saturday with Sunday services at the end), Wed night Bible study, etc. I was lucky to have enough familiarity with Protestant religious tradition to accept invitations from friends and not stick out, but church youth groups were definitely a thing.

My parents treated asking about someone's beliefs as rude and intrusive (like many, many other topics). Not forbidden, but I've got no clue what/whether either of them believes. The only time I've been asked was when my college roommate asked me to be her kid's godmother and I had to make sure she was OK with the irony of the kid having an atheist godparent.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:40 AM
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23: basically yes. Also the genie-in-a-bottle problem - on e your atheist secret is out, there's no getting it back.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 11:21 AM
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20: I don't think there is a clear line between expressing one's religious beliefs on the spot and proselytizing. Friends obviously influence each other in a wide variety of ways. That is why bringing up religion is inappropriate. One's religion may be tangentially relevant to a conversation, in which case it will come up tangentially. I don't think that's quite the same as telling someone, "oh by they way, I'm a muslim. what are you?"


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 11:23 AM
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I do worry about this here, or I will in a few years. Mormon culture pervades most everything here, and most are pretty nice, but it can be a bit lonely for outsiders. There's even a children's book written by the wife of someone notable about how kids should be in the "not even once" club and isn't it great to be in the clubhouse of never having coffee, tea, or sex or lying? Don't you want the candy in the clubhouse? No one can be in the club who doesn't agree to follow the rules.

It's a giant metaphor, you see.

I generally think it's fine for a kid to lay low w.r.t speaking out. I would really like it if other people would tell their kids to lay low, and not tell my kid his mom is going to hell for drinking coffee and having a job, so I'm cool with returning the favor.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 11:26 AM
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27 sounds like a hideous environment, Cala.

6: To try to use a personal relationship to change a person's beliefs is rude.

11: I wonder if it's possible to have a worthwhile personal relationship that doesn't involve at least the risk of one's beliefs being changed. I can't imagine it.

Here's a query, not to do with religion at all: a friend and I recently backed out of a gathering when we found out another friend would be present. Said other friend smokes indoors, in the room, with everyone gathered. It's annoying, obnoxious ... one comes home smelling like a bar, one feels the need to immediately strip off one's clothes and segregate them, as they stink.

The query: do we tell the hosts of the gathering that we didn't show up because Smoker was going to be there? Background: this has come up in the past, and the hosts have mildly protested that it's the holidays, they don't want to ostracize Smoker; I have in the past attempted to bring Smoker outside to smoke, and he protests that nobody's objecting, so it's not necessary.

It's just absurd now: I feel the urge to just tell the hosts that, love him as we do, we have to keep Smoker under control. I am told, however, that it's not my business to influence the hosts, or Smoker, for that matter.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 12:18 PM
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Weird. I know a fair number of habitual smokers and almost none of them smoke indoors at all anymore, even alone at home.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 12:29 PM
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So you backed out of a party because at the end of the night, you'd have to take off your clothes and put them in the laundry basket?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 12:30 PM
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And after that, drive home.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 12:39 PM
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I smoke alone and at home, but would change habits if I had visitors and they requested it.


Posted by: text | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 12:40 PM
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30: Yep. I could have handled it, but my companion couldn't.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 12:43 PM
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29 is my experience.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 12:44 PM
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Ditto to 29. I haven't really smoked for quite a few years [sometimes on holidays, occasionally when drunk] but even when I did, I rarely (if ever) smoked indoors at my own house, and never at other people's [unless they themselves were people who smoked indoors].


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 1:00 PM
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Right, I don't know anyone who smokes indoors, except said Smoker, and only at these hosts' house. I've been at other places with him in which there is simply no smoking indoors -- for that is the rule -- and he calmly goes outside to smoke. He doesn't smoke indoors at my house either, for that matter.

It's down to these particular hosts, and Smoker's relationship with them. They were college friends. I just want to tell them: they should make a no smoking in the house rule.

But again: I have been told that it's not my business to get involved. I can see this coming, though: I'm not going to be able to keep my mouth shut. I'm going to wind up telling them that everything would be cool if we could just make sure Smoker goes outside. For how hard is that?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 1:10 PM
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I do contend that this is, however tangentially, on topic.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 1:12 PM
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If your nonsmoking friend has a health issue with being around smoke (like asthma), your nonsmoking friend should ask the host in advance if they could keep the indoors smoke-free; the host should then ask the smoker to step outside to smoke.

If there's no health issue or anything similar, you and your nonsmoking friend should either go to the party and be polite by not trying to enforce your own will in someone else's house, or don't go and send polite regrets.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 1:17 PM
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Bave, yeah, that's the assessment of a third party friend -- who knows none of these people. It's what my companion seems to think as well, that he should say nothing.

I'm just watching a set of friendships fall apart *with no honest explanation*, and that seems suboptimal. I also feel badly myself for backing out with a lame excuse.

Also. There is apparently the complication that part of my companion's objection is that Smoker has begun to hack horribly whenever he smokes. I didn't know that, haven't seen the guy for several months myself.

Intervention! Yes? No.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 1:26 PM
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Don't stage an intervention for a smoker. Save that for easier things like heroin.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 1:29 PM
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I don't know. I feel like it's just wrong to leave the hostess in the dust like this, without explaining that there's a problem with Smoker's situation, so that's why she had way more food than she needed, and I am sorry that we couldn't be there.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 1:48 PM
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You didn't RSVP that you weren't attending, to an event where headcount mattered?

When you RSVP, just send an email saying "I'm sorry - [X]'s smoke drives me nuts."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 2:53 PM
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Mrs. Pierce is such a slut that I do not love her victualls.


Posted by: Samuel Pepys | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 4:09 PM
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I don't see anything wrong with telling the hosts now, after the fact, that you're so sorry you couldn't come, but the smoke really bothers your companion. You'll likely be told that you should have spoken up before, and of course given modern customs, having people smoke outside is a sensible policy. There's a non-trivial chance you'll not be invited next time the smoker is going to be there, but if you weren't going to go anyway, this isn't much of a loss.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 5:50 PM
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Going back to the topic-topic, I was also raised to not talk about religion even though I was of the locally dominant religion. It was put to me as a way to avoid making people uncomfortable and to avoid big fights.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 6:57 PM
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I was also raised not to talk about butts. At least, I assume I was since I knew not to do it. It's one of those things where it had not occurred to me would be a hard thing to teach until I had to teach it to a child.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 7:08 PM
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I guess my parents didn't teach us the butt thing explicitly, because once we were in line at a drugstore, and my younger sister said at full volume to my mother, "That woman has a really big butt!" Referring to the woman in front of us. I can still remember how palpable my mom's embarrassment was, even to me at however young an age (pretty young) I was.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 7:37 PM
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46: Amen, brother. Amen.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 7:48 PM
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Oh god, my brother had a piano teacher named Adele who was very pear-shaped, and three year old Heebie could just not resist pinching her butt. Apparently if my parents didn't keep a tight grip on me, I'd be across the room in a flash. I actually still remember what her butt looked like, sitting on a piano bench, in maroon polyester pants.

(I've told this before, I'm sure.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 7:49 PM
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EVERYONE I KNOW HAS A BIG BUT.


Posted by: PEEWEE HERMAN | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 7:55 PM
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I cannot remember being three years old. If only something had made as big an impression as that butt.


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 7:56 PM
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I have a couple flash memories from three. One was in a hospital bed after getting my tonsils out and getting a wooden puzzle of the three little pigs with a fuzzy wolf, and I was rubbing the wolf. The other was a neighbor telling me not to touch a model airplane he'd just finished painting, just to look at it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 8:02 PM
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I've got a decent amount of very early memories - being in my crib, the impression that grown ups can cover a room incredibly fast, what it's like to reach up for a doorknob, and later noting that now the doorknob is the same height as my head. A cabin from a trip we took, when I was 2 or 3, and a particular nightmare I had there. A few things I found hilarious like "It's not your ammy, it's MIami!" Adele's bottom. A preschool, although I was there through age four. Wanting to be carried specifically so that I could see what was going on, in an indoors ordinary type situation. Being young enough that someone automatically picks you up when you want it, as opposed to being three or four when you're pushing it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 8:13 PM
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I remember a hellish transit trip in Geneva when I was about three. My mother had an obstetrician appointment (for an ultrasound?), and she had to drink liters of water, and we were running badly late (which makes her panicky). She was scarily unpleasant. After we returned to the US, I had nightmares for a year or so about monsters on trains.

The other really vivid memory is from a trip to Mesa Verde. I was not quite three. My parents had decided I was big enough to climb those ladders on the cliff faces. I panicked (the ladder was wobbly) and threw a huge crying fit partway up one while on a guided tour. I remember seeing the horizontal log rungs and the leather thongs tying the ladders to the cliff face. My father remembers, too, since he had to toddler whisper me up the ladder so everyone else in the tour group could continue.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 8:30 PM
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One of my sisters recounts memories from age three or even two; I'm at the other extreme and have only a few specific memories of experiences before, oh, middle school.


Posted by: joyslinger | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 8:46 PM
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To those in recovery, or religious types, it might be useful to speak to the text. Whatever text that might be.

People fuck up. The interesting parts are when we pick up the pieces.


Posted by: Grumbles | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 8:48 PM
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54.2: Hey, those ladders are scary even for adults. It's not at all surprising that a toddler would freak out.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:12 PM
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57: Kind of you to say so. I went back years later and was fine, although I spent most of my childhood avoiding all but the most sturdy ladders.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:22 PM
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Speaking of sturdy ladders, I use one that says it is rated for 200 pounds. I'm quite a bit lighter than that, but a gallon of paint, some tools, and work clothing must weight close to 20 pounds.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 9:27 PM
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I know I was a bit nervous the last time I climbed a ladder at Mesa Verde (at age 20 or so). I was fine, of course, and they're actually plenty sturdy. Still, they don't always look it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01- 1-14 10:15 PM
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I was never taught not to discuss religion, but I spent my entire childhood doing the "E" version of WISE on another aspect of my family.

It honestly never would have occurred to me that WIS would be okay to do, although my younger sister managed it just fine. (It would have felt like cheating or being dishonest had I blithely let people assume I was "normal" the way she did.)

On the religion topic, I realized only as an adult that I had somehow absorbed/developed the belief that all religious people were stupid. I remember being horrified when someone assumed I was Jewish, not because of anything about Judaism but because I thought it meant I was coming across as dumb and gullible.

I actually became religiously observant as an adult, although not of any of the religions that struck me as stupid as a child. It was a defining moment in adulthood when I started to meet obviously-observant people who were also thoughtful.


Posted by: Abigail Adams | Link to this comment | 01- 2-14 10:22 AM
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I was thinking about this and ended up wondering whether there's a huge geographical issue here. Aren't there places where regular churchgoers assume that the people they meet outside of church--especially in a public school--are not going to have the same religion?

(Where I grew up was isolated enough--at least in the public schools--that I remember a bunch of Jewish Girl Scouts sitting around arguing about whether Christians are a subset of Catholics or the reverse. That's also why I was never really Ivy League material in spite of my SATs: none of us, and possibly few of the adult advisers, would have thought to maybe go to a library or something.)


Posted by: bianca steele | Link to this comment | 01- 2-14 7:03 PM
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Aren't there places where regular churchgoers assume that the people they meet outside of church--especially in a public school--are not going to have the same religion?

Knifecrime Island, for one.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 01- 3-14 4:04 AM
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63: or, in that case, any religion at all.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 01- 3-14 4:53 AM
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Aren't there places where regular churchgoers assume that the people they meet outside of church--especially in a public school--are not going to have the same religion?

Sure. I suspect anywhere where there are enough distinct groups that no one group constitutes a clear majority will tend to do that, while someplace that is more of a religious monoculture will have the reverse tendency.

When I was in (public) elementary school in the 60s (Westchester County, NY), the kids who went to the Wednesday afternoon release time were mostly Catholic, although my (mainline Protestant) church had its own Wednesday program for a couple of years, and there were enough Jewish kids that we got the high holy days off as school holidays. So we were generally pretty aware that a bunch of our peers had different faiths, although we didn't know everyone's individual traditions. One of my elementary school friends became Baha'i in high school, and invited me over for an informational session about it.


Posted by: Dave W. | Link to this comment | 01- 4-14 6:12 PM
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Right. We go to a church school which is part of the same mainline Protestant denomination in which we're active churchgoing members, and even there because of big city demographics maybe maximum 20% of the class could be reasonably assumed to be religiously Christian at all, and maybe 5% are active members of the denomination. The prayers taught in school and the religious instruction assume that much of the class is either of different faiths or not religious at all.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 01- 4-14 6:33 PM
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