Re: Antidote

1

Saying stable on both fronts isn't going to get an exciting discussion started, probably.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:33 PM
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I've been pretty farty today. Helpful?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:39 PM
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1: it all turns on the definition of "stable."


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:40 PM
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3: Stalls, tack... the usual. What did you think?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:41 PM
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She's implying that Buck is hung like a horse.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:42 PM
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You know, I've always vaguely intended to have an Etiquette of Tooting thread, but find the topic kind of unpleasant.

Some people claim they can hold it in, in public. How does anyone know if they are actually doing so, or if it's seeping out? Do people exit situations rather than stink up a room? How do they have enough advance notice?

See, the whole topic makes me look bad.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:42 PM
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Dammit.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:42 PM
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2, 6: You guys are going to make ogged go away again.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:43 PM
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6: comes put their ears. Somebody says they're doing that? Stick a lighter in their ear. Fwoosh!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:43 PM
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8: sorry. Uhhhhh 9 is about sex, now.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:44 PM
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Oh my god. I'm not even going to read this thread.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:45 PM
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Sex with horses, in fact.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:45 PM
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Super boring, but I recently figured out that the boyfriend and I have been together about ten years. I'm not big on keeping good track of stuff like that and usually answer "long enough" when people ask. This means that we get to say fun stuff like, "I've been putting up with your [irritating quirk] for ten goddamn years!" So, at the risk of jinxing it, the love life is good.

There, back on topic?


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:47 PM
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Holding it in during sex is harder in certain positions, I'd think.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:47 PM
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usually answer "long enough" when people ask

Oh for crying out loud, get a tape measure and give us a straight answer already.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:48 PM
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Buck and I just hit nineteen years dating. It's weird being old.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:48 PM
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Aha! I have no sense of smell and have SO MANY QUESTIONS about farts, and I just realized Unfogged is the perfect place to ask. (Sorry Heebie.)

-Can people smell their own farts & if so, why is there a need for a social norm against farting in elevators, since everyone is already disincentivized to do that?

-How quickly do smells travel? If you're sitting across a table from me and I fart how soon do you notice? Is it a constant speed, or different for different types of fart?

-Do fart smells attach to the place in which they're released, or to the person releasing them? If I fart in one room, wait X minutes, then walk to a different room, how big does X have to be before the people in room 2 won't know that I farted? And how long will the smell linger in room 1?


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 1:53 PM
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17: Farts dissipate like any gas mixing with another. If the room is breezy they'll dissipate faster, if it's stagnant they'll linger. The fart pretty much stays where it is if you move, though some will get dragged along in your slipstream for a little while. Unfortunately your other questions are too quantitative for accurate answers without experimentation.

One thing worth noting is that meat eater farts smell worse than vegetarian farts, though IME vegetarians fart more. I don't think the total stench is conserved, though. Vegetarians definitely win on the non-stinking front.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:05 PM
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Huh, we also just hit 19 years. But we started early.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:06 PM
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SP just called LB old.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:07 PM
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We just started dating a mere eight years ago because we're so youthful.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:07 PM
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17, 18: I will say that I think people systematically exaggerate how offensive the odor of farts are based on hearing them. I have a fairly sensitive sense of smell, and I rarely (not never, but rarely) notice that someone's farted if I didn't hear it happen.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:08 PM
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Ogged = me?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:09 PM
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23 = me declaratively.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:09 PM
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I've been single for ten years this August. I can't say as I really mind. My back hurts, though. So the OP question answer is physical health is worse.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:09 PM
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LB called herself old, I'm just providing encouragement.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:11 PM
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I couldn't decide on an actual president.

I have an extended case of jock itch. I have never had this before.


Posted by: President Wilford Brimley | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:11 PM
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22 seems reasonable.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:11 PM
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22: You would notice with me, unfortunately. People have commented "must be raw sewage leaking from [nearby plausible culprit]" unprompted.


Posted by: No way | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:12 PM
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Twelve years next month. This might be my only chance to say I feel old here.

Pet farts are worse than people farts. Unless your pet is a fish.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:17 PM
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Can people smell their own farts

Yes but how is it that you don't know this? Do you just not fart?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:18 PM
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"I have no sense of smell," Neb.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:19 PM
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CAREFUL HE'S GOING TO EXPLODE!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:19 PM
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This weekend will be my and IB's 1-year anniversary. I'm going to be accompanying her on her recruitment visits to Georgia and DC, too. So the love life appears to be going quite well.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:20 PM
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I guess there's no hope for an update on your drunken ramblings from last Memorial day.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:21 PM
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... now if only I could give her some wonderful experience as an anniversary/birthday present, something like, oh, I don't know, visiting sunny LA for a romantic getaway in order to see a private screening of Veronica Mars and meet the cast members at a special reception.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:23 PM
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I HAVE NO NOSE.

AND I BITTERLY RESENT THE ASPERSIONS I SENSE THAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO CAST ON MY PERSONAL HYGIENE.


Posted by: OPINIONATED DOG | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:25 PM
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38

On the bodily ailments front, I just got my wisdom teeth removed. The no-chewing diet is a drag.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:26 PM
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39

Man was not meant to eat 30 plums in a single workday.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:30 PM
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Length of current relationship is a little tricky to define (Since the first date ever? The first hookup? The final resumption of dating each other after breaking up with other people?) but we're getting close to a decade of cohabitation, which is a definable milestone.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:35 PM
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39: If my man says he can eat 30 plums...
Alternatively
I heard he ate like 30 goddamn plums


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:36 PM
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Man was not meant to eat 30 plums in a single workday.

Time to start looking for a different job?


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:39 PM
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I will say that I think people systematically exaggerate how offensive the odor of farts are based on hearing them. I have a fairly sensitive sense of smell, and I rarely (not never, but rarely) notice that someone's farted if I didn't hear it happen.

I wholeheartedly agree that people systematically exaggerate how offensive the odor of farts are; most often, unless someone is unhealthy, the smell is interesting, not offensive. But saying they're rarely noticeable is crazy.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:40 PM
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36 -- OK, OK. I'm leaning strongly towards giving Trapnel and SheTrapnel the tickets. Does anyone else want to lobby for them? Let me know, publicly or privately. I'll set a deadline of 3/6/14 at 5pm Pacific time to make the decision, so if you feel you're the more deserving weirdo make your case now!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:41 PM
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35 years since our first date, 30 years fucking, 27 years married. You would not find much of interest in a more detailed report.

On health, 7 years since she gave me her kidney. Most recent year boring here too. In this category boring is unexpected, and good.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:42 PM
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46

...unhealthy how?


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:42 PM
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43: "Interesting" in the may you live in interesting times sense


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:43 PM
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My wife insists that she can't identify people based on the smell of their gas. I honestly don't believe she's ever really tried. If you pay close attention, everyone's intestines have a unique smell. They're as recognizable as faces.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:44 PM
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On health, 7 years since she gave me her kidney.

Wow. Is that the kind of thing where it's lucky you guys were close enough of a match? Or is she your sister?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:45 PM
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I of course read that as "30 fucking years."
We count from when we agreed to date which was a day (or two depending how you count) after first hookup.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:45 PM
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48 is wonderful.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:46 PM
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45: 5 years of dating before you two got it on?!?!

The GF and I just hit our two-year anniversary a couple of days ago. And after spending large parts of January in excruciating pain, I'm back to full speed at the gym and on the field.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:48 PM
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Spring Training's just begun, but 48 shows that Urple's always ready to hit one out of the park.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:49 PM
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They're as recognizable as faces.

On the other hand, you're not particularly good at faces.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:49 PM
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45: Five years from first date to fucking is interesting -- first date went nowhere and then you reconnected years later, or simply an impressive level of continence?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:50 PM
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Maybe your wife has posogasnosia.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:50 PM
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The last word of 48 is misspelled.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:51 PM
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I'm leaning strongly towards giving Trapnel and SheTrapnel the tickets. Does anyone else want to lobby for them?

I'll lobby for Trapnel and IB -- if nothing else Trapnel seems likely to be willing to write-up a short description of the evening afterwards.

My health is generally good, though I I continue to feel like I'm in a bit of an extended low mood-wise. It will pass, but I am getting tired of it.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:51 PM
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Ask you family members to let you come smell before they flush the toilet. Within a few exposures you'll be able to tell them all apart with your eyes closed. Guaranteed.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:55 PM
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Tell xtrpnl he only gets the tickets if he drops the sign for the next picture.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:55 PM
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45: First dates on a high school Summer program, different high schools and colleges, occasional letters (old school, with stamps and everything), reconnected afterwards.

49: If you marry an O positive, you're golden. Modern immunosuppressants take care of the rest. Remember this, single folk


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:56 PM
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unimaginative is Captain Wentworth?


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:56 PM
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52, 55: another interpretation is that they haven't had sex in the past five years. It just says "thirty years fucking", it doesn't say when that began.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:56 PM
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5 years of dating before you two got it on?!?!

And then after that, they got it on for 30 years straight, including fucking their way through their marriage ceremony.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:56 PM
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O negative is the universal donor, not positive.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 2:59 PM
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I just had to correct that to prevent anyone from making a terrible mistake in their choice of partner.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:00 PM
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65: Oh yeah. But as a B positive (same as my grade point average), O pos was fine.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:01 PM
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dz, did you lose your sense of smell at some point where you remember smelling or before? Mara doesn't have a sense of smell and I don't know anyone who hasn't ever been able to smell, just people who lost the ability as adults.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:02 PM
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If you pay close attention, everyone's intestines have a unique smell. They're as recognizable as faces.

Ask you family members to let you come smell before they flush the toilet. Within a few exposures you'll be able to tell them all apart with your eyes closed. Guaranteed.

And you use this ability to . . . do what? Solve crimes? Find incontinent people in the dark?

Based on your talent and your enthusiasm for it, I'm now thinking one of your ancestors must have been the love child of Sherlock Holmes and Watson's dog.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:03 PM
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And having a baby keeps my mind off the pain, but she prefers me to rock her so she can jam her chin int my shoulder and pinch a nerve there, so we're working on something that meets my needs better. Love life definitely worse than health problems, but there are also suitable distractions there.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:04 PM
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59. Dude, seek help.

Also, are the other members of your family equally dedicated truthseekers, or are you a Rothschild or Walton or something?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:08 PM
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Love life - er, happy but could be better. We're up to 18.5 years.

Health - I've got a cold.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:12 PM
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Anyway, antidote to what?


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:16 PM
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Thorn, never had one! Believed from age 4-10 that smell was an elaborate joke my family was playing. Sure Dad, you can tell what's for dinner when you walk in the house with your magical smell sense, not because Mom told you on the phone before you came home.

To some extent, I still believe this. At least, I believe that 22 is true not only about farts but about everything smell-related.


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:17 PM
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Come to think, I wonder what happened to Hillary Clinton, who was considering trying to negotiate an open marriage because her married sex life was pretty grim. Hillary, are you around? What happened?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:18 PM
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Urple, your results mean nothing to me without a blind. Get back to me when you've gathered and labeled different outputs from all your family members, randomized their order, and then tried categorizing them without looking at the labels.


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:19 PM
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74: I've tried to be very explicit about how it's okay that she can't smell things and she doesn't need to pretend, and gave her teacher a heads-up before she started kindergarten, because some of what I read online included people feeling guilty about not being able to smell or trying to cover it up because they think it's a trick. So far she's "smelled" ramen seasoning once and popcorn once and I think can sometimes tell if the oven is on, but that seems like some kind of response to chemicals in the air and not necessarily actual smell as most of it think about it. On the other hand, it means I don't have to change the diaper pail as often now that she's the one sharing a room with it, because she has no clue!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:21 PM
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60: I am glad that I wasn't the only person thinking this. (Actually, what I restrained myself from commenting was along the lines of "Perhaps a smaller, less wordy, sign might be more effective.")


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:22 PM
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Some kind of response to chemicals in the air is actual smell, isn't it?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:23 PM
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73 comments before someone was polite enough to ask. What a bunch of antisocial farters.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:23 PM
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74- I bet you thought scratch and sniff stickers were cruel.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:24 PM
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You could also be real with her and admit that it *is* a trick.


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:25 PM
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79 is true, but really, two confirmed incidents of that kind of smelling in over three years makes me feel like I'm not lying when I say "She doesn't have a sense of smell."


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:25 PM
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The "chemicals in the air" thing is familiar - I can definitely tell if a bottle of ammonia or nail polish is being held an inch from my nose, but I'm unsure whether to call it "smell" given that those are the only nose-responses I've ever had.

Can Mara taste? I predict yes.


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:27 PM
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She can taste, but her preferences are strongly influenced by textures and how the food looks. (She also has pica and eats things that aren't food at all, but I think for the most part that's separate since she doesn't only eat things that smell disgusting to people who aren't her.) Oh, and names of food, I guess, since sloppy joes are too sloppy to even be worth trying.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:29 PM
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Anyway, antidote to what?

The relentless parenting chatter.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:35 PM
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Can no one say how fast fart smells travel?


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:37 PM
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86: Sorry that I got my relentless parenting chatter in your antidote thread.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:38 PM
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87: I really think this calls for experimentation. But I'll speculate that about a foot a second is probably the right ballpark. Maybe half that. Assuming stagnant air.

It's been shown that getting lots of people to estimate and then averaging gets you pretty close in a remarkable number of situations. Perhaps everyone could pitch in with their fart diffusion velocity guess and we'll make a big spreadsheet to play with.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:41 PM
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A thread devoted to the two things I love to bitch about most?

A week ago Monday I had an unambiguously successful date. It lasted from 7:00-11:30. I ended it because I was sleepy and wanted to go home. There was fun conversation and making out. At the end he asked, "Would it be wrong of me to ask you back to my unkempt apartment?" And I said, "It wouldn't be wrong, but I'd say no." And he said, "I didn't do anything to make you uncomfortable did I?" And I said no, nothing at all. "We can see each other again, right?" And I said yes.

Then he didn't text, and didn't email. Two days past date I wished him luck, via email, with a thing he had on Friday. And he still didn't text or email until finally on Sunday night we had this exchange (I will highly condense all this):

Tia: I take the hint. But I would have preferred to be directly told it wasn't in the cards. Good luck with your pilot and everything else you're working on.

Guy: I didn't mean that. I would (would've?) liked to see you again. Maybe I didn't succeed in communicating how busy I am. I am terrible at email and better at texting. You're still welcome to text me if you want to. I have some concerns about your somewhat extreme reaction to not talking for a few days after a first date.

Tia: On one hand, I'm sorry I misunderstood. On the other, I think my interpretation was pretty conventional. I don't think I did anything extreme. Maybe it's best we just let it lie.

Tia, the next day, after having had another successful date with a different guy, also on Sunday night: P.S. This is excessive, but I am an excessive person. I would like to say the same thing over, but in a more open, vulnerable way. This is more for me so I can express myself the way I like -- feel no obligation to respond! [I proceed to express the same thing as in the previous email, but with a lot of I statements, talking about my subjective experience, etc. One thing I said was that part of my anxiety came from the simulated experiment where I went home with him and he did the same thing.]

I know this was ridiculous of me, but it got the best results:

Him, promptly, during his lunch break: A very kind email validating everything and apologizing, acknowledging the impression he gave and saying that his "async communication hygiene was poor." He thought we would have fun, at least, and who knows about more, but he respected my judgment. He also said that he would have done the same thing if we had slept together.

And I, to myself: I KNEW IT. His email was very kind, but for criminy's sake, it really takes some nerve to be inviting people home if you know about yourself that you don't even have the wherewithal to text them two affirming lines the next day. You are not too busy to do that unless your mom is dying, or you're filing a last-minute death row appeal, or something similar. TWO LINES. Just say that you had a good time and you're looking forward to seeing me again. This is one of the reasons -- not the only reason, but one of them -- I didn't! Because you don't have a chance to assess their communication hygiene and whether they're going to make you feel good about it afterwards. If you want people to be really freewheeling about sleeping with you, be one of the people that creates a respectful, safe environment.

But I decided he was nice enough in the revised version that I would sleep with him if he still wanted to, because I want to. Because I have made out with like three people this week (one of them is just a friend) and haven't had sex since November and my roommate is having very noisy sex with multiple women and I'm tired of most of the sensation coming from my body being pain and I want to protect myself from liking the second guy too much, and I don't know, I just do. I communicated as much today. We'll see if he still wants to. He has to text me though. I'm making that explicit.

This is part one of two. But I have to go. In truth I have no small degree of shame that this is my material, still, and I can't be a mommy blogger. But the invitation was so juicy and tempting.


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:42 PM
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75: That posting allowed me to write a poem-comment I am still very proud of but which was immediately bested by...I forget who, but they wrote something way better.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:47 PM
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Argh, my name keeps vanishing because I'm on "no homo" mode or whatever it's called on Chrome, because somehow this is supposed to mitigate how much of this fucking training I'm spending surreptitiously looking at internets. One of the women in my training class has forcibly adopted a catchphrase, and I'm feeling especially irritable about that.

p.s. to Tia: I am kind of you in the post-date behavior/expectations category. 90.10 makes sense to me but we both come off as high maintenance to other people for it.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:52 PM
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(Should I explicitly put that in the past tense so it doesn't look like I am still dating around? I guess that is clear to anyone reading. But I still vividly remember feeling like 90.10.)


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:53 PM
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90: Could also be that he didn't want to *say* he would have texted you if you had slept together b/c that answer implies that he's only interested in sex.

I think a lot of guys, myself included, get caught up in the unfortunate belief that the only way to really know if a woman likes you is if she's willing to sleep with you.


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:56 PM
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Actually, my experience is not that I come off as high-maintenance. My experience is that in hetero dating situations, if a guy wants to see me again, he will reliably affirm that the next day. That's why I felt sure that six days with no communication (when I had contacted him), was a rejection. Also, I can't think of a date with a woman I've had that went well where one party didn't say something the next day, but then it's less clear whose job it is.


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 3:56 PM
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"I have some concerns about your somewhat extreme reaction to not talking for a few days after a first date" is why I thought he was calling you h.m.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:00 PM
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right, he was, but I was honestly a little confused by color of the sky in his world where I wouldn't have thought that a six-day silence from a guy after a date (when I had contacted him!) was the writing on the wall. I'm just saying that basically every other experience leads me to believe I can expect a rapid follow-up from someone who communicated so explicitly that they liked me. In my email with the I statements, I made the joke, "I am aware of all internet dating traditions."


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:07 PM
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I've been slowing losing at battling a cold for 10 days now. Headed for a total rout, I'm afraid. Really need to get past it, because I'm going to Denver this weekend for depositions early in the week. Nothing new on the sciatic front. XCing feels good while doing it, really bad afterwards. Ditto shoveling snow, but that seems to be resolving on its own right now. I should really do those yoga poses my daughter recommended for me.

Married 31 yrs last week. I can't say how glad I am not to be dating in the electronic era. Letters were paper with stamps, and not only did people not have phones with them, but they didn't have answering machines on their home phones. Expectations were consequently different, and more helpful to the clue-impaired.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:11 PM
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Man was not meant to eat 30 plums in a single workday.

So it is YOU who keeps raiding the icebox!


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:12 PM
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Aches and pains department: I was sick an unconscionable amount this winter. Sucked ass. Constantly having sore throats, congestion, strep, ear infections, etc. Hoping above hope that this will now pass, because I've been unable to exercise. That means I've gone all soft around the middle and started to spread. *That* has been negatively impacting the "Oohs and Aahs" department.

Oohs and Aahs department: contra the last statement above, nothing bad to report. 8 yrs married and almost 12 a couple and we're really getting that stuff figured out.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:24 PM
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I find dating discussions fascinating, largely because I'd be so hopelessly bad at it all. I was certainly terrible at it back in the day.

But expecting that someone who's interested in seeing you again will respond to communications within a couple of days seems pretty minimal in terms of expectations; I really can't see anyone reasonable disagreeing with that.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:26 PM
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If you think farts don't smell that badly, you aren't eating enough cheese.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:28 PM
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Because of everything in this thread, that's what I was moved to reply to.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:30 PM
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102: so cheese improves your sense of smell?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:30 PM
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Cheese improves how things smell to you.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:32 PM
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Well, that would be a *type* of improvement, surely.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:34 PM
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I limp.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:35 PM
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Cheese improves how sunny it seems to be


Posted by: dz | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:35 PM
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I have eaten
the plums
that were in
the icebox

and which
you were probably
saving
for breakfast

If it makes you
feel any better
I have diarrhea
like you wouldn't believe


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:41 PM
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Love life went to zero several years ago, have no urge to link up with yet another person, learn them, find places for their stuff, stumble over their baggage, or take the computer gear and books off their side of the bed. I've gotten very used to not thinking about negotiations and compromise. IMX the special Portnoy cut of liver plus porn do quite well as a substitute for a human and are lower in maintenance.

My health, to the chagrin of my docs, seems pretty good, much better than the many dead people I've known and usually better than the live ones even somewhat close to my age.


Posted by: biohazard | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:42 PM
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59. Dude, seek help.

Dude, given urple's past food exploits and the association between taste and smell, should we have expected anything less?


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 4:51 PM
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If you marry an O positive, you're golden. Modern immunosuppressants take care of the rest. Remember this, single folk

Alternatively, if you are an AB positive (universal recipient) you are golden no matter whom you choose as a partner.
Heh heh heh.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:01 PM
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Liver? Hasn't there been a technological revolution?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:02 PM
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On the other hand, filling all those hotel bathtubs with ice does get expensive after a while.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:03 PM
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I initially thought 113 was to the transplant comments.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:03 PM
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I thought you were imagining that biohazard has the world's most elaborate and disturbing masturbation routine.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:06 PM
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Now we are.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:08 PM
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114 was, of course, to 112.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:08 PM
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116: autonecrophilia is a bit of a tricky fetish, I admit. Kind of a combination of narcissism and Capgras syndrome.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:08 PM
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I continue to be amazed at how I seem to be able to become close friends only with people who live near me just long enough to become friends, then one or both of us moves away.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:09 PM
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Liver. It works fine, better for the environment than the silicones, and the cats like it after it's been warmed up.


Posted by: biohazard | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:10 PM
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better for the environment than the silicones,

I don't know about that, given that silicone is reusable. I suppose it depends on what the useful lifespan of the relevant object is, and so how much liver it substitutes for, and the environmental impact of each piece of liver.

And people say algebra has no real world uses.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:13 PM
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119: Oh. I was thinking he was abducting people, removing part of their liver in a hotel bathtub, and then using it a la Portnoy.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:13 PM
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123: Liver does regenerate, so there's an argument that he wouldn't be doing anyone any permanent harm.

Would that actually count as masturbation, though? There is another person involved, even if only partially.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:16 PM
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124.2: I think I'll leave that one to one of the resident philosophers.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:18 PM
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I think it's OK as long as you aren't actually masturbating to the corpse in the bathtub.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:24 PM
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The third citation for presentation of Capgras syndrome in the Wikipedia entry suggests either an unfortunate coincidence or a poor attempt at a joke in pseudonymising the subjects.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:25 PM
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126: Never mind, you aren't actually killing them.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:26 PM
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I got married to someone to someone with a much lower sex drive than me. She's great other ways, but it's still tough. I thought your sex drive drops as you age, but it hasn't, for me anyway. I did spend a lot of years single and screwed my brains out over all that time, so I have some memories to draw on at least.


Posted by: Dwight David Eisenhower | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:31 PM
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126: "To" is okay but in the incision is a bit gross, dontcha think?


Posted by: biohazard | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:32 PM
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I had sort of an odd experience with this girl last year -- we never were in a serious relationship, but for some reason everyone we ran into assumed we were a couple. I guess we just looked the part? Somehow we seemed compatible in a way that would work well in a marriage, but was just not that interesting when going on a date.

In short, my love life is boring, and frequently misinterpreted by others.


Posted by: torrey pine | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:36 PM
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I suppose I should give some thanks to ogged for my love life.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 5:54 PM
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Did you steal the liver from him?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 6:04 PM
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In the past year I haven't become overweight, but I have gained enough weight that I can't fit into most of my clothes. So I have nothing to wear, and don't have much spare change around to buy clothes. Plus, I harbor hopes of fitting into my wardrobe again. I feel super crappy about my appearance in the short run, though.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 6:04 PM
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I have the same colon infection I've had since last July. It's fun!


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 6:05 PM
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I'm thinking about changing jobs. We have to lay off a bunch of people soon, and while I get to influence who stays and I'm guaranteed a job post restructuring, my job probably won't be as interesting as it was and is kind of a dead end. But I feel a little guilty because I've also been told by a few people that if I leave it might set off a cascade of many people running and will screw the company, which I still think is a worthwhile place. But company loyalty is so 70s.
This isn't related to sex or health but seems to fit in the woe is me thread.


Posted by: Herbert Hoover | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 6:12 PM
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I'm working to get out of my position like an animal in a trap gnawing off a limb. My company is about to IPO, and if the timing works out wrong, my departure will absolutely fuck them. Can't decide how much loyalty I have left, especially since my options will apparently be worth dick-all after the reverse split.


Posted by: Herbert Hoover Junior | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 7:12 PM
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My cat had a diarrhea explosion on my office carpet. In addition to not knowing whether I'm hallucinating a lingering odor after multiple Nature's Miracle treatments, I'm worried this foretells the end of the (coming-on-17-years-old) cat.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 7:27 PM
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We had basically one date. We had been in some of the same classes several years earlier, so had a sense of each other from that, and we worked in the same office. She'd inherited a rare and unusual American car, and was having trouble with a brake light staying on and draining her battery. I volunteered to have a look at it after work on a Friday, after which we'd go have pizza.

Found the fault quickly, and we went out and started talking. We talked all night, about lots of things. She likes to make it ridiculous in the telling, so she mentions my talking with her about Matthew Arnold and 19th cultural criticism. I'll admit that was part of it but wasn't all of it.

She later told me she'd been impressed I'd gone home to shower and shave, which I guess she hadn't expected. She did say on that first evening/morning that she liked beards. I haven't shaved since.

That was 34 years ago this fall; we'll have been married 30 years in June. Both in good health, with a good love life.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 7:31 PM
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I seem to have developed some slight peripheral neuropathy from, I think, lithium toxicity. Mostly weakness and tingling in my left hand. I've been dropping things and having difficulty operating nail clippers.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 7:41 PM
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Really? What brings you in contact with lithium? Maybe switch to valium?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 7:52 PM
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142

Maybe carpal tunnel related.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 7:54 PM
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141: I am not aware of any common condition for which both of those are indicated.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 7:59 PM
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141: I think depakote would be next in line.
142: Haven't had any pain, but after taking the medication at night I was waking up with numbness in my lower arms. That stopped after I quit, but I still have those much milder symptoms.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:00 PM
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Depakote also causes slight neuropathy. But apparently it might enable you to develop perfect pitch.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:03 PM
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Depakote is not the worst thing in the world, though I don't remember anymore what it did to me when I was in medicine roulette. Tremors, I think. But neuropathy sounds terrifying and unacceptable if there are any other drugs you can try.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:05 PM
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139: That's sweet. Congratulations.

Not long ago I broke the half-plus-seven rule (for a short while--we came into compliance when she had a birthday). Things are good. It's probably not a coincidence that I'm physically feeling fine.


Posted by: John Quincy Adams | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:07 PM
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144.2: That doesn't sound carpal. Anyway, hands are complex shit so I just threw out an option.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:09 PM
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140: That's no fun, hope it improves. Didn't know lithium could do that. Not an MD, but my understanding is that peripheral neuropathy can take a while to improve (months not weeks).

134: I've been telling myself I need the extra fat to stay warm and that it will disappear when warm weather returns.

135: Sounds like it's fancy doctor time. Sounds awful.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:09 PM
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I was told the tremors were due to the neuropathy. Lots of people have other side effects from Depakote -- hair loss AND hirsutism, weight gain OR weight loss.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:09 PM
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Anyway, yeah, hope you find something without unacceptable side effect, Eggy.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:10 PM
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It's not bad, just annoying. It's quite mild. I'm sure I'll adjust so's to not drop things. The nails on my right hand might grow a little long.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:11 PM
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150: Does it just continuously regrow while they leave a trail behind them?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:13 PM
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Just call it your "mauling hand" and talks comfort in being awesome.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:14 PM
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153: loss on top, gain on palms


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:16 PM
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At the end of the month, I'll have been with my current company for 12 years, which is more than a quarter of my life.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:17 PM
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149: 140: I had intermittent tingling and feelings of heat in my hands and arms from one or more of the drugs the docs piled on after the stroke. 'Twas very annoying but not interfering with function. It did take months to go away after I stopped taking most of the crap.


Posted by: biohazard | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:18 PM
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157: Some folks at my workplace were running a drug efficacy trial where higher doses led to high rates of neuropathy. After a short drug vacation and switch to lower dose, almost everyone's resolved, but it took almost until the study ended for a few participants. I think at two years out, all but one were OK.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:27 PM
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Sometimes I get neuropathy in my hands for short spells when I am super anxious. I've had it twice since starting my new job two weeks ago. I am 100% ready to leave my field if I can find a way to.


Posted by: Not Very Presidential | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:31 PM
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So, on the health front, I wear a splint on the fourth finger of my left hand. It's silver and looks like jewelry. It's meant to be unobtrusive, but I get lots of questions about where I got it. The conversation always gets awkward when I explain it's a splint available by prescription. I'm sure there's a better answer. I'd also rather not explain what I did to random strangers - I had flashbacks for the first couple months after I hurt it whenever I explained what happened.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:35 PM
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That's a clever bit of splint technology! Very elegant.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:43 PM
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Not long ago I broke the half-plus-seven rule (for a short while--we came into compliance when she had a birthday).

I did this. She was in grad school, and it took nearly 3 years to come into compliance. Her friends called me "Methuselah." But now she and I on the good side of that rule by about eight years.

I'm near the year anniversary of my new job, and it has improved everything about my life, including my health and, in a way that surprises me, my sex life.

Without realizing it, I had become that guy who says I shiver all the time, my kids won't sit in my lap, my wife won't sleep with me.

I'm thawing, and truthfully, I never had any idea how much I'd frozen.


Posted by: Lyndon Johnson | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:45 PM
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160: That is a pretty cool splint. I feel sad that I'm a random stranger.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:49 PM
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My love life is going great, but it no longer involves a horse.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:50 PM
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Can't decide how much loyalty I have left, especially since my options will apparently be worth dick-all after the reverse split.

Herb Jr., this is very surprising to me. I don't think they can legally change the value of your options with a reverse split - and if you're in an IPO situation, I'd be surprised if the options are really worth dick-all.

But IANAL, and maybe you've found some new way to get screwed that I'm unfamiliar with. I'd advise you to make sure you know what's going on before you do anything rash, though.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 8:53 PM
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161: Thanks! It helps a ton with my dexterity.

163: No, not a random stranger, an imaginary friend, right? Plus, you can't see how terribly uncomfortable I look explaining it. I snapped the tendon that holds the tip of the finger straight, which healed (sort of), but left me with hyperextension at the knuckle (called a "swan neck deformity"). I did it on a sailing trip two years ago. The jam to release my line was stuck, and when I got it unlatched (while coming about, so there was a lot of weight on the line), my left hand ended up wrapped the wrong way in the winch. Luckily, the boyfriend was there in a instant to unwrap it (I was in too much shock and pain), but the damage was done. I haven't been sailing since.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 9:09 PM
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An instant. Oops.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 9:13 PM
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Oh, ydnew, that sounds awful! It did leave you with a cute splint, but how scary!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 9:20 PM
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I have a lot of trouble sleeping while pregnant. You're not supposed to sleep on your back and it's impossible to sleep on my stomach so I flip from side to side all night. One side will go numb and my hips will start to ache and I'll flip, which starts the process on the reverse side until I'm in so much pain I might as well get up. It doesn't happen every night but it's having a cumulative effect. All the various pillow options suggested by the internet made the problem worse.

That being said, it's completely worth it to have a baby and everything seems to be going very well. I have a deep fear that the baby is going to be born with some issues, but I'm sure everyone goes through that.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 9:47 PM
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162 resonates with me. Work has all of these effects, whether you've got any at all to start with, and then the quality of it. I've been through all that in the last dozen years.

And the inability to get started, or get anywhere, seems to be depressing everybody I know under the age of 40.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 9:49 PM
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135: That sounds so awful. I thought for a second that you might be a pseud for Mimi Smartypants, but maybe your city just makes people sick.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 10:08 PM
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I think I met someone at the poetry thing I went to earlier tonight. I got digits and everything. It's been ten years. It was a good night.


Posted by: Zachary Taylor | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 10:18 PM
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I got digits and everything

Cutting off fingers on a first date is deprecated.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 10:26 PM
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Oh look, now I was asked to come up with a plan to generate another couple million dollars of revenue next year. Um, Bitcoin market manipulation?


Posted by: Herbert Hoover | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 10:32 PM
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I hold your hand in mine, dear
I press it to my lips...


Posted by: romantic tom lehrer | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 10:33 PM
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At the end of the month, I'll have been with my current company for 12 years, which is more than a quarter of my life.

It's weird sometimes to think that I'll likely never work anywhere else due to not starting until I was over 30 but then again, I like the gig, there's lots of variety, and I'm definitely a fan of the stability.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 10:40 PM
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Oh look, now I was asked to come up with a plan to generate another couple million dollars of revenue next year. Um, Bitcoin market manipulation?

That seems to be the easiest way this days, yeah.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 10:54 PM
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I ran with reindeer last weekend. It was rough on my knees but potentially good for my love life. So I guess things are going well.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 10:59 PM
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Whoops, link should go here.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:00 PM
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I'm not sure reindeer are good at long term commitment.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:08 PM
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It was rough on my knees but potentially good for my love life

The fruit... so low...


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:09 PM
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I was so going to quote Tom Lehrer. It's so difficult to be clever around here.

I just ate two marijuana gummi bears because I've been sleeping badly. We'll see how that goes.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:17 PM
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181: I hope he at least tied on a ribbon on the ones that kick.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:18 PM
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I'm not sure reindeer are good at long term commitment.

Well, neither am I.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:19 PM
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Short-term either, to be honest.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:20 PM
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It's so difficult to be clever around here.

Ain't that the truth.

I just ate two marijuana gummi bears

That's not going to help.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:24 PM
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186: yeah but...


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 5-14 11:51 PM
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188

Sounds like Smearcase is assimilating well.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 12:44 AM
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189

My love life is probably at its highest point ever, and I've even mostly stopped imagining all the horrible ways in which it could crash and burn. We've been seeing each other for around four months (originally met on OKC, I might have mentioned it on the previous love life thread), and when my lease came up a week ago, she asked me to renew it only up to the end of June, when hers expires. So I did.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 2:53 AM
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Part 2 of 2:

This isn't bitching. This is more mildly frustrated expounding.

So second guy also asked me to go home with him. I said no. Then he wanted to have a whole conversation about it, which he said, and I believed him, was not about trying to convince me, but about understanding my reasons for saying no. I had already told him the story about Guy 1 (this is unusual behavior of mine, but wevs, no one expects me to hew to a strict set of conventions), so I tried to refer to it, as the beginning of my list of reasons -- "I don't want to sleep with someone and then feel humiliated." "But why should you feel humiliated by their behavior?" he asked. He went on to say he knew how to be somewhat selfish in those situations; it was okay for him to get what he wanted from the momentary encounter and not let himself be hurt by anything that happened later.

Things I thought but didn't say:

1) Are you a conehead? (He wasn't a conehead about anything else.) Do I really have to find words to explain the phenomenon of retrospectively reinterpreting some sexual interaction in the wake of bad behavior from the other guy? Why it is that I might do that, even if you wouldn't? Why people let themselves be affected by dismissal or disrespect, even though in theory they don't have to be?

2) He said at some point later: "I can just tell by how you are that it would be beautiful to have sex with you." And part of me thought, you know what, it would. I, given minimal conditions for investment and comfort are sufficed, and sometimes even though they aren't, am a great lover. But I don't know that about you. Kissing can give me very negative information about what someone would be like in bed, but it's not all that definitive as positive information. I see how you feel like you already know enough to believe I would be a good place for your penis to hang out for a while, and some of the differences between how much information we need to believe that a sexual encounter would be fulfilling is just physiological. Realistically? probably? A first time would be not great for me (sometimes it is! it's just not what I expect). On time two or three maybe I would be starting to warm up to you, and you would be starting to figure me out, and we'd be on an upward trajectory. But going home with you now I don't even have solid reason to believe I'd ever get that. Later I said, "I don't want to have sex with you right now." And he said, "that's the perfect answer." And I thought, wait, no, because it's obvious that I don't want to, because I'm not doing it and nothing is physically preventing me; I was just explaining some of the inputs to the motivational function, because you asked what they were. But I didn't say that either, and I never did explain the input "why would I think I'd enjoy it?", because I don't know, I thought that might have been a little unsexy. Though I did quote myself from an earlier conversation: "I've had enough sex with men. I do not need more information about this topic." Which is to say that at this point it needs to be about something to be all that interesting. And yes, I know I just said I wanted to have sex with Guy 1, in a large part motivated by just wanting to have sex for the sake of it. I am large. I contain multitudes. (It turns out he does want to, which is I guess not shocking. Actually, having successfully negotiated a little snit over email now makes me feel better about prospects for communicating with him in the future. He's being nice.)

I just feel like people are falsely extrapolating from "women like sex" to "your average straight woman has reason to believe that a first encounter with a straight man, even one she is attracted to and likes kissing, is going to be that great, such that she can proudly say, 'I took what I wanted,' and it doesn't matter what happens afterward."

Everything is fine, really. I just like bitching and expounding.


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 5:11 AM
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And he said, "that's the perfect answer."
Thank goodness he approved.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 5:26 AM
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I was so going to quote Tom Lehrer.

That song was actually the first thing that came to mind. I should know always to go with Tom Lehrer around this crowd.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 6:26 AM
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I, given minimal conditions for investment and comfort are sufficed, and sometimes even though they aren't, am a great lover.

I love this sentence.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 6:41 AM
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Well that didn't work at all. Another not so great night of sleep.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 7:24 AM
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194: That's unfortunate. I was thinking last night how badly I could have used some of those gummies.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 7:36 AM
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||

Man, I like making fun of bitcoin as much as the next guy, but was publishing a picture of the founder, his family home, street address, and car with quite possibly visible license plate number really necessary, newsweek? He did quit the project several years ago, you know.

|>


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 7:42 AM
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196 sounds like the work of a genuine asshole.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 7:52 AM
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194: I haven't slept well in a couple of months. The problem is getting worse not better. Originally, I began waking up every single day, after tossing and turning at night, at precisely 5:45. Now I'm waking up at precisely 3:45 most days. It's not an ideal situation, but I'm assuming it will get better when I find the time to write this thing that needs writing. Or maybe this is just the new Abby Normal.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:18 AM
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Come to think, I wonder what happened to Hillary Clinton

I'm afraid I don't have any exciting updates to report as I've yet to follow through on sleeping with a man other than my spouse. I have however had multiple conversations with my spouse about my dissatisfaction with our sex life. Things have improved with him and it's clear that he is putting more effort into it than he was in the past.

I still really want to sleep with someone else though so it's clear to me that that desire is at least somewhat independent of how my sex life is faring within my marriage.

While sex has been better with my spouse, I find I'm questioning our relationship more than ever and doubting whether we will be able to make it work long term. I've spent the past few months trying to figure out what a typical level of emotional closeness is in a marriage and if our seeming lack of it is actually all that is to be expected. He treats me with respect and we enjoy spending time together but there isn't a lot underpinning those seemingly superficial ties. But maybe that's normal?


Posted by: Hillary Clinton | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:18 AM
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199. Common, but shitty. Good luck.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:21 AM
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199.last: Can you elaborate a little on what emotional closeness means to you? Is it a matter of being able to talk about everything and anything, or a willingness to be vulnerable in front of each other or what? I don't really have a good grip myself on what's reasonable to expect in a relationship.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:31 AM
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I've spent the past few months trying to figure out what a typical level of emotional closeness is in a marriage and if our seeming lack of it is actually all that is to be expected. He treats me with respect and we enjoy spending time together but there isn't a lot underpinning those seemingly superficial ties. But maybe that's normal?

I think the difference between all-superficial and sufficiently-intimate-in-a-longterm-sense is whether or not the couple can easily shift gears on those occasions when someone has something more heavy to share. It's not the frequency of heavy conversations, but rather the ease of shifting when one person has something on their mind.

If one person feels inhibited from bringing up heavy topics, then the intimacy is missing altogether.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:35 AM
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So what is it with the Xtians and going full-cross on the Ash Wednesday smudging? Didn't it used to be just a teeny smudge? And now it's this big gothic holier-than-though crucifix? Pretty soon they'll be looking like The Crow.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:37 AM
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203: Obesity epidemic among priests?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:39 AM
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Oh, the value of the options (that is, the percentage of the company that I have the option to own) stays the same. But the company goes through an evaluation period by potential investors prior to the actual public offering. During that period, it's determined how much the company as a whole is worth, and a target price per share is set.

Once that price per share is set, they go back and do a reverse split with anyone who either owns existing shares or options. The current rumor I have heard (from an executive in the know) is that the spit will be on the order of 50:1. Thus, if I had 100,000 options (I don't, but for example), they would now become 2000 options post-reverse-split. Those 2000 options will now be worth approx. $10 each (what they shoot for when deciding how to apportion the reverse split). So I went from thinking I was going to have a significant portion of xxx dollars to well, substantially less. I knew there was going to be a reverse split, but no idea the ratio would be so high. Probably just my naievete, but it sucks.


Posted by: Herb Jr. | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:43 AM
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201: Yes to both being able to talk freely and a willingness to be vulnerable.

An example: last year I found a breast lump, went to my doctor to have it checked out, she was concerned enough to schedule me for additional tests. That night I told my spouse about it and he made the appropriate noises--I'm sorry, that sucks--but after that he never mentioned it again. I didn't bring it up to him again because I was curious to know what he would do or say, if anything, to follow up on supporting me through this situation. But he did and said nothing. I'm sure after that first night it just left his mind and he forgot about it but then I had about two weeks of stress to endure without his support until I got my results.

That is one of the more extreme examples but I feel like that pattern plays out on a small scale in our relationship every day.


Posted by: Hillary Clinton | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:44 AM
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205: I'm still not quite following. If the reverse split is 50:1, that should mean that the value of each share goes up by 50x. They're doing a reverse split but keeping the share price the same?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:48 AM
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206: That should be keeping him up at night. Were the tests okay then? I'm sorry you had to go through that without his support.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:52 AM
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I've been out of the game for awhile, but I'm also confused about the reverse split thing. If I'm remembering correctly, splits generally wind up bumping the (objective) price per share a bit, while reverse splits can go either way. I.e., after your 50:1 split, your $2/share price would automatically go to $100/share, and then probably fluctuate a bit one way or the other. However, I worked almost exclusively with listed stock options, so the mysteries of ESOs are often occluded from my sight. If only dsquared were here!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:54 AM
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I'm sure after that first night it just left his mind and he forgot about it but then I had about two weeks of stress to endure without his support until I got my results.

Why do you think this?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 8:58 AM
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Because he never mentioned it again, never asked when my appointment was or how I was doing, never asked how he could help, never asked what my results were after the fact (I'm fine, btw). We had that one conversation that first night, which was positive in the moment, and then he went on as if nothing had changed.


Posted by: Hillary Clinton | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:02 AM
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Maybe he's thinking that if it really were something you would bring it up?

You should try telling him that you are clear, and see what he says. (Bad sign: if he says, wait, what lump?)


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:10 AM
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That certainly indicates a wild chasm in communication, but it does not indicate a lack of intensity on his part. Distancing is usually a sign that someone is (poorly) managing intense emotions, and it's highly unlikely that he's indifferent to this unraveling relationship.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:11 AM
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Josh, I think you've got it. It's just that the value of the individual options before the reverse split is so fucking small because of dilution that you have to do the reverse split at such a high ratio to get the individual shares up out of penny stock territory. So, say an individual share pre-split is worth 20 cents. Post split (after 50 pre-shares have been crammed into 1 post-share) it would be $10. So every 50 shares I had are now combined to 1 share at $10. I knew my shares were being diluted, but no employee had visibility into how bad it was going to be, so I got suckered (most likely by myself) into thinking my options were worth a lot more than they were.

Probably too many Twitters and Googles and Facebooks out there clogging up what a typical IPO looks like for me to have a realistic understanding of what I might come out with. I wasn't shooting for the stars, but thought a lump sum equal to 1-3 times my annual salary wasn't out of the picture. Now it's just a few paychecks.

Oh well.


Posted by: Herb Jr. | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:15 AM
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212.1: That was our past pattern during stressful events: I would go to him for the support I needed, he would respond appropriately, but he would never offer support spontaneously. That worked for a while and in certain situations but it's also work to always have to go to someone for support and when things are really stressful the balance sometimes favors not taking on that extra work of seeking out support in favor of conserving internal strength.

213: I did tell him about my results after I received them and his response was "Oh! I'm glad you're ok!" but the oh part sort of conveyed that he had forgotten about it.


Posted by: Hillary Clinton | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:22 AM
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So the issue is mostly that you didn't have an accurate sense of what percentage ownership of the company you had? Your options were defined as a number of shares (which number will now shrink through the reverse-split process), but you didn't know the denominator of the fraction?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:22 AM
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214: Gotcha. But it doesn't sound like your shares have been diluted; you still own the same percentage of the company as you did before. That's good! I mean, it sucks that the company is worth so much less than you thought it was, but at least that's something that can potentially change for the better. Still, sympathies.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:23 AM
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...but I did wake up with a new appreciation for the guitar solo in In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida.

He said, because jokes you finish an hour later are always hilarious.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:23 AM
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215. Is he capable of thinking about any other person-- a child, a parent, a sibling? I can see where that would be an unfortunate way to live.

From what you write, it's not clear whether you're getting his best behavior and are unhappy with it, or whether he can demonstrably do better and isn't doing so in how particularly attentive he is to you.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:29 AM
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212.1: That was our past pattern during stressful events: I would go to him for the support I needed, he would respond appropriately, but he would never offer support spontaneously. That worked for a while and in certain situations but it's also work to always have to go to someone for support and when things are really stressful the balance sometimes favors not taking on that extra work of seeking out support in favor of conserving internal strength.

My uninformed guess is this: he will avoid making himself vulnerable until it wrecks the relationship. He was happy to comfort you but not share things that bothered him, because he didn't have to be very vulnerable then. Then that stopped working, because that's not actual intimacy, and now he's freaked out and burying that and more unwilling than ever to actually be vulnerable.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:31 AM
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But just to be clear: he acts indifferent because he's terrified to be vulnerable, not because he's actually indifferent. Yes, he needs to grow up and do things that are scary, though, or else this is doomed.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:33 AM
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But it doesn't sound like your shares have been diluted; you still own the same percentage of the company as you did before.

The deal is that they were diluted along the way, and he has only now come to realize that the percentage of the company he owned all along was quite small. Do I have it right?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:34 AM
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Now I'm waking up at precisely 3:45 most days. It's not an ideal situation, but I'm assuming it will get better when I find the time to write this thing that needs writing. Or maybe this is just the new Abby Normal.

Time for some wee-hours writing? Not that I ever do that.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:36 AM
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Buck's new boss, since August or so, is a chronic insomniac, and is apparently productive 20 hours a day. If she's not working, she's doing craft projects or something else energetic.

On the rare occasions I've had trouble sleeping, I've never managed to do anything but be miserable.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:38 AM
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221 is some terribly complicated bank shot. Isn't it much more parsimonious that he's just doesn't read emotional clues well or pay enough attention to other people to keep track of their emotional state?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:51 AM
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225: I'm talking about his unwillingness to share his emotions, not whether or not he can read hers. Everyone has emotional stuff. If he were willing to talk about things that make him vulnerable, she'd be willing to say "hey! I need support here, and you're missing my cues!" which is easy to say when it's easy to broach heavy topics.

(My further guess is that she has said "hey! I need support here!" before, but it's not a fix to the freezing up of communication, if he's never vulnerable.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:57 AM
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225: 221: Etc:

Yeah. Bill Clinton is being faulted for not reading Hilary's mind and providing what's needed without being shown the list? Fuck that, they're better off apart.



Posted by: biohazard | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:59 AM
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224: Oh god, same here. If I could just manage to clean, or do something productive, I'd feel better about not sleeping.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:59 AM
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227 has nothing to do with anything I've said.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:01 AM
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I'm, as usual, probably a worse person than anyone else here. From everything else HC has said, there are huge relationship issues, and her perception of it is probably accurate. Limited to this precise story, though, I was kind of thinking that I could fuck up like that if the initial conversation left me thinking that the situation wasn't a genuinely upsetting one (like, that the odds of a bad result were low enough that everything was probably fine), at which point I could merrily forget the whole thing unless actively reminded.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:01 AM
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(Saying that I might plausibly do something is not meant to indicate that I think it's an okay way to behave. I am genuinely not a good or particularly supportive person.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:02 AM
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Herb Jr. explains it right here:

so I got suckered (most likely by myself) into thinking my options were worth a lot more than they were.

So yeah, Herb, LB, Josh, rfts and me are all on the same page. I was Googling around, trying to figure out if there was some way that a reverse split could change the value of options, and I ran across this item, which tells the story from Herb's point of view, with the perceived loss of value - but doesn't explain what actually takes place until way down into the story:

Of course, in a strictly rational sense, a reverse share split shouldn't matter at all. If an employee is granted 10,000 shares at a company with a total of 100 million shares, that's the same percentage ownership in the company as 2,000 shares from a total of 20 million shares. And investment bankers will point out that a 100 million-share offering will bring in a much lower price per share. But often, employees don't see it that way after the fact.

But I've got another question for Herb: In a pre-IPO situation, when a company gives you stock options, is it obligated to give you any kind of prospectus? That is, is it required to tell you anything about the business, so that you can evaluate the risks associated with the stock options you receive?

As LB says, the key number here is the denominator. Did they at least disclose that?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:02 AM
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I was kind of thinking that I could fuck up like that if the initial conversation left me thinking that the situation wasn't a genuinely upsetting one (like, that the odds of a bad result were low enough that everything was probably fine), at which point I could merrily forget the whole thing unless actively reminded.

Sure, you could. But in a healthy relationship, your spouse would just verbally whack you with a newspaper and you'd apologize and then you'd both just have an emotionally honest conversation about the original topic. It only snowballs when there's distancing going on.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:03 AM
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On the rare occasions I've had trouble sleeping, I've never managed to do anything but be miserable.

I can and do get scutwork done -- clearing out the inbox, refereeing manuscripts that don't demand a huge amount of attention, administrative crap that demands attention but not brain power -- but I can't write. If the insomnia persists for long enough, I'm sure that will change.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:07 AM
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227: Until recently, I had always been direct with him about what I need in terms of support. What I'm unsure about is whether it's reasonable to expect support without that heavy prompt. Maybe it is unreasonable, like I said I've been seriously questioning my expectations and whether I am asking too much of him.


Posted by: Hillary Clinton | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:07 AM
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I think that at most 10% of adult relationships meet the deep fears anytime threshold in 233.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:07 AM
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Well, maybe. I have no idea what the percentages are; I only know how to diagnose all problems perfectly.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:12 AM
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237. Isn't that tiring?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:16 AM
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I never comment in the relationship threads and probably shouldn't in this case either, but I suspect that heebie may be right (always a safe thing to say): Bill Clinton is scared of making himself vulnerable, perhaps especially scared of making himself vulnerable to someone who isn't at all sure she wants to stay with him.

I don't mean to absolve Bill of responsibility, because, as ever, it's impossible to know what's happening in other people's relationships. But from what Hillary has said here over a relatively long period of time, she has real doubts about the sustainability of the relationship (and, I'd hazard to guess, sort of wants out). And if I've got this right, Bill doesn't want out. So for all of his faults, he's pretty committed to being with Hillary, right?

If that's the case, he surely must sense that Hillary's devotion is hardly unwavering, and he's very likely scared shitless. All of that said, I want to reiterate that he may be culpable in any and all of the above for all manner of reasons. Which is to say, I don't want to cast any blame in Hillary's direction. Relationships are complicated!


Posted by: not especially opinionated mary jo kopechne | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:17 AM
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226: Actually, no, not everyone has emotional stuff going on all that often.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:18 AM
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235: This is one of those things we can't tell you without being there. If you're a master of disguise, so emotionally controlled that there's no way to tell anything's bothering you without explicitly using your words, maybe your expectations are unreasonable. (Not that you didn't tell him about the situation, but he could have misunderstood what was needed.)

But it's just as likely that he's really not paying attention in a way that he should be.

It's funny, I usually have strong opinions on things like this (sometimes I don't say them, but I usually have them.) What you've said here together with the earlier thread, though, I've been wavering madly between "It's over, you should be figuring out how to get out of the marriage with the least damage to anyone," and "This is a totally fixable rough spot, if you stick it out everything might easily be fine in a couple of years." Which means I'm no use at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:18 AM
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I don't generally share my opinion unless asked, and I'm not trying to solve the relationship woes of the world, so: not tiring.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:19 AM
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(I don't mean to be attacking HC here, who I'm sure is right. I'm attacking HG.)


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:19 AM
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No, no denominator, nor any sense of how many additional shares were being issued during each round of financing. I don't think they're obligated to.


Posted by: Herb Jr. | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:20 AM
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239: I don't mean to absolve Bill of responsibility, because, as ever, it's impossible to know what's happening in other people's relationships. But from what Hillary has said here over a relatively long period of time, she has real doubts about the sustainability of the relationship (and, I'd hazard to guess, sort of wants out). And if I've got this right, Bill doesn't want out. So for all of his faults, he's pretty committed to being with Hillary, right?

Well, another way to read it is that Bill doesn't want out, because the current relationship is meeting his needs. And he doesn't want to change anything to make Hillary happier, because the current relationship is meeting his needs. So if he can keep his head in the sand indefinitely, maybe nothing will ever change.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:21 AM
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Actually, no, not everyone has emotional stuff going on all that often.

No, but on occasion. A colleague dies and you're a little rattled; a parent gets sick; etc. No one is free from emotions.

But more importantly, HC's partner is in a highly emotionally charged relationship, because it's disintegrating. At best, he is willfully ignoring his emotions and distancing on auto-pilot.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:22 AM
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Well, another way to read it is that Bill doesn't want out, because the current relationship is meeting his needs. And he doesn't want to change anything to make Hillary happier, because the current relationship is meeting his needs. So if he can keep his head in the sand indefinitely, maybe nothing will ever change.

This is correct. And further: it's super scary for him to take his head out of the sand. He'd rather pretend everything's fine until it self-destructs than actually deal with the reality of the situation.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:24 AM
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245: that is indeed another way to read it -- and in fact I think that's probably right; I'm not sure the two readings are mutually exclusive -- which is one of the reasons I said I don't want to absolve him of responsibility.


Posted by: not especially opinionated mary jo kopechne | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:25 AM
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Phew. So long as I'm still agreeing with heebie, I figure I'm on reasonably safe ground.


Posted by: not especially opinionated mary jo kopechne | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:30 AM
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I read heebie's theory as totally plausible. Not bank-shotty at all.

I read biohazard's comment as less taking issue with the notion that HC's expectations are reasonable.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:30 AM
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I believe the primary issue for us (and this theory has been supported by more than one of our therapists) is that we don't have a shared way of addressing problems in our relationships. We are lucky in the sense that our lives have not been terribly troubling and when things are going well for us as individuals, things in our relationship are great. But even though we've been fortunate to have somewhat easy lives, we've still had the everyday problems that come with children, jobs, sickness, etc. Anytime even a small issue arises in our relationship, it sends us into a tailspin. My approach is to pursue, pursue, pursue the problem and address it until it's resolved and his approach is to retreat, retreat, retreat. We've haven't found a way to meet in the middle, where I pursue the problem less and he retreats less.

Is that a solvable problem? It seems like it should be and it's why we've both really tried to make this work and not have it be the end of our relationship.


Posted by: Hillary Clinton | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:31 AM
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So if I'm understanding this thread, Herb Jr. is thinking about getting together with another company. His current company didn't want to appear vulnerable so they held back on what they're sharing until now a split is imminent. They haven't even been interested in Herb's concerns about the lump sum.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:32 AM
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Heebie, I think your comments on this are insightful.


Posted by: Michelle Obama | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:37 AM
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Ah, that makes sense. I had a relationship with a similar issues, things worked great if things were smooth but several bad feedback cycles when even small problems arose. We never sorted it out, but we were immature then and maybe other people do figure it out. But strong feedback loops can be really tough to break.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:38 AM
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My personal belief, HC, and I'm super sorry to say this, is that things are doomed. Your only choice is to stop pursuing intimacy so much (which you did, with the breast cancer scare) and if that doesn't free him up to start expressing more intimacy, then you're out of options.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:39 AM
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more than one of our therapists

I feel like a jerk saying this, but your relationship should not be that hard. Unless you move frequently, I think multiple therapists is enough of a good college try. Even if he magically gave what you want, I think the resentment of having to threaten to leave to get it is still going to be there.

I bet you could each separately find someone whose style will complement yours, and it will be so much easier than trudging along.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:43 AM
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I am also confused about where this all stands relative to the IPO and previous rounds of financing. Really, I think, it would be the previous rounds of financing that would have screwed Herb over, but that's the chance you take being an earlier equity holder. And, of course, the company is (broadly) always free to issue more shares after the IPO, so it's not like you can ever say "I own x% of ABC Inc., a public company, and this will never change." Plus, the company could be holding shares of stock in its treasury (is that the right phrasing? It's been 16 years since I passed my 7) which they could distribute at any time, in any fashion the directors see fit, which doesn't actually dilute your equity, but could have a deleterious effect on the value of your shares. And, of course, the other thing is that we are not in a crazy IPO bubble, as Herb acknowledges above, so it's well to remember that some portion companies that go public never get back up to their IPO price, even if they're not technically penny stocks anymore. But, again, ESOs were the province of other people in my department, so there may be any number of pertinent details that are escaping me.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:48 AM
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256: Except married, except I think kids, IIRC. "Your relationship should not be that hard" works for me before kids -- if Hillary and Bill were just dating, I'd say shake hands and part friends. If I'm right about the kids, though, that makes putting a lot more work into making things work proportionately reasonable. That doesn't mean infinite work, it just means that getting out of the relationship is going to be hard and messy enough that there isn't an easy way out.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:48 AM
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Tl;dr: 252 gets it right.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 10:50 AM
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HC just said HG was right.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:01 AM
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I suspect one key to the way Herb Jr. got screwed here is that his stake in the company was granted in a way that's not taxable - and therefore he never had any way to value it at all. With shares, at least, the company has to put a number on the value, but options aren't taxed until they are exercised, I don't think.

Sorry, Herb. I imagine over time there's been a lot of nudge-nudge, wink-wink implications about the value of your options - maybe even from people who were themselves misled. That sucks.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:05 AM
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252: They had to tell Herb because they had to tell the public. I'm sure they would have kept concealing it as long as they could have otherwise.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:07 AM
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258: I don't disagree that marriage and kids means you have to try harder. I'm with you right up until them seeing multiple therapists. I mean, most people don't go for funsies, right? So, maybe the first was a bad fit, so they saw a second. Maybe they moved and got a third, but at what point does it become clear that even the help of a professional isn't improving things? If she'd said "both of our therapists," I wouldn't make the same assumption. The quoted line implies at least two of three, possibly more.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:11 AM
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I mean, most people don't go for funsies, right?

Depends on if they're the kind of therapist that has a ball pit and skee-ball.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:14 AM
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The trick most people fall for is they get some number of options and people talk in general terms about the target price of an IPO which implies your options are worth (IPO-option price )* #options but neglect to mention that getting IPO price to the target range may involve large changes in # of options of the final merged shares.
I have 16k shares in a company that's managed to stay in business for 10 years but still isn't public and hasn't been bought out. When I left the company I had to choose whether to exercise within 90 days, so I did since I was one of the earliest employees so the exercise price was low (10 cents.) At that point it becomes the same as a public stock purchase- hold it for a year it becomes a long term capital asset, etc., you just can't do anything with it until the company is public or is bought out (the contract actually says this- you own the shares but are forbidden from selling them to anyone, which I don't see how they can really enforce- I can enter a contract that someone pays me $20k now and when I'm allowed to in the future the shares will be transferred to their ownership.)
Unfortunately it's entirely possible that a 50-1 reverse split to a target price of $5 brings the actual value right back to my exercise price, as sounds like the case for Herb Jr. The incentive to stay with the company is that the options remain options, if you ride it out until the company dies or succeeds you have no up front cash investment or risk. Although, if you immediately flip your options once you're allowed to sell the shares, you'll get taxed as a short term gain so it's best to buy and hold for a year if possible.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:17 AM
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Even if he magically gave what you want, I think the resentment of having to threaten to leave to get it is still going to be there.

I've put myself in this position and do resent it and really don't know what else to do or have done or whatever. I'm really appreciating this conversation.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:17 AM
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With you, though, the kids are exactly what makes the outcomes so, uh, thorny.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:24 AM
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My guess is that HC has genuine contempt for her husband, has for a long period of time, and that of course that creates distancing, and that there's not much to be done and the relationship is fucked. Don't have enough information to know whether the contempt is mutual. And it doesn't really matter whether or not the contempt is justified; if it's there, and has been for long enough to not be turned around pretty easily, the relationship is doomed.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:25 AM
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Oh yeah, forgot about the exercise price -- so that doesn't change, even with the reverse split? I'd have to look that up.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:25 AM
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I think Ydnew's point should be considered seriously. OTOH 268 seems a to go beyond the information we have by a considerable amount.

I wish I had a more useful contribution. Good luck HC.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:32 AM
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AISIMHB I had 10k or so options in a company (where I worked) that got bought by another much larger company; our options got converted to immediately exercisable options in the larger firm, but we weren't allowed to sell them for a year. Some people decided to exercise and buy them right away so they would get taxed on the larger company's current share price, rather than the share price in a year when they could sell them; this required upfront capital, but if the larger company's shares continued to go up, then it would save money. In the year between the purchase and when people could sell their options, the larger company's shares lost 91% of their value; by the time I could have sold them my options were underwater, and I never exercised them.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:33 AM
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267 to me? Yeah, she'd sort of forgotten I'd put leaving on the table until last night and now she's totally freaked out that I'm planning to leave. Which I am, but only because it's my half of the nuclear arms race, not because it's a done deal. It would be better for the kids if we could work things out and not delete anyone from the family.

I was going to send a specific ATM about how to be a better partner to someone who's depressed and hates the world, but I might as well just throw it out here that I'm open to suggestions. (I think Cognitive Behavior Therapy is going to help her and the new medicine she started today might, but I need to figure out how to do my part better.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:38 AM
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Coming in late, but I think the love life may be looking up. Of course, I'm currently reduced it importing from out of state, but we do what we must.

Someone local, in fact, is hitting on me, but I'm hesitant to pursue it because we both attend a group activity that is important to me in a relatively small group, and fucking that up is something that I'm loathe to do. Call that one of those lessons it only took me 25 years to figure out.


Posted by: grumbles | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:41 AM
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I don't feel like I have contempt for him, it's more of a sadness that our relationship isn't working out as I hoped. Part of it is frustration: we are both fairly easy going, don't have any major mental health issues to complicate things or other huge life stressors for that matter, so why the hell can't we make this work?

Discussing this here has been very helpful to me because this has been very difficult to talk about with my close friends and family. People understandably freak out when they hear that a couple they think has it all together really doesn't.


Posted by: Hillary Clinton | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 11:51 AM
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272:

I'm chronically depressed, and relationships died because of it and second-order things related to it. Some of those relationship murders were group efforts, though, and that's where this is coming from. Some of it may be obvious, but it wasn't to other people, so take it for whatever it is worth to you.

Don't try to fix things. You can't, and if they could, they would. It leads to frustration for both and frequently made me feel worse, feeling guilty that I was causing frustration. it can get bad enough to become anger, shut down a lot of important communication and lead to awful patterns.

Take care of you. Being around me when I'm in hell is not pleasant. It sucks. Do whatever works for you to keep yourself healthy. And remember it isn't about you. At least for one of my exes, this was a huge problem.

When you can, if you can, where appropriate, shoot for humor. It really does help, at least a bit.

This one depends more on the person, but for me at least, it does help - try for novelty. It doesn't have to be big things; new experiences, activities, or even just conversations can take me out of what I think of as hell's rotisserie, the same old fucking thoughts over and over.

Good luck.


Posted by: grumbles | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 12:01 PM
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Does Lee have a history of depression, possibly undiagnosed in your opinion?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 12:08 PM
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276: Yeah. I didn't always take it seriously because it's low-grade most of the time, but she has historically benefited from anti-depressants and then got totally overwhelmed by the clusterfuck around losing her job and has never really gotten back on track since. She's certainly depressed and miserable and finally getting better treatment for it, I think.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 12:11 PM
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And "not take it seriously" isn't really fair. It doesn't manifest itself as huge and life-destroying like mine used to, though maybe she's there now. I think the problem is that it's not depression and really something else (something like OCD seems likely to me, attachment problems are a given) and so this dream of a wonder anti-depressant that will solve the problems is not really the right solution. But I'm not in charge of that part.

grumbles, thanks. I'm working on not taking things personally. It's not easy. So far not depressed myself, not even miserable all the time, but I'm plenty sad about things nonetheless.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 12:17 PM
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Sorry, I know we've moved on, and to much more important topics (my sympathies, Thorn), but I had this realization a couple weeks ago, and really no one to share it with:

So the cliche is that everyone likes the smell of their own farts. I've never liked that cliche because A. gross, and B. not really true. If I had a bottle of my own gas smell, I would never, ever open it. BUT. It is true that there's a certain positive feeling you have about your own gas that you don't about others. Why? Because it's directly associated with a positive physical feeling (pressure relief). It's a simple, and really direct, Pavlovian thing.

Also, we now know that if we ever want to have a thread about Ogged without him participating, we just need to start out talking about farts.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 1:27 PM
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190: this is such total horseshit on so many levels. The guy sounds like a manipulative tool. Someone who won't be patient about sex because you're unsure of his depth of interest is obviously not really that interested and is just looking to hit it and quit it -- obviously he could prove his depth of interest by just sticking around, which would be no burden if he genuinely enjoyed your company.


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 2:24 PM
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273: because we both attend a group activity that is important to me in a relatively small group, and fucking that up is something that I'm loathe to do

Perhaps you could ask the DM for advice?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 2:48 PM
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280? To me? Regarding Guy 1 or Guy2? They both seem willing enough to stick around for a second date. I have plans with both of them.


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 2:59 PM
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Threesome!


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 3:00 PM
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282: I guess so. Regarding Guy2 (or the story in 190). Past a certain age, guys who try to wheedle/argue women into bed once the woman has turned them down are sort of pathetic. And the things he was saying are inane. (Including that he wasn't trying to persuade you -- 'I'm just trying to understand your reasons', come on).


Posted by: PGD | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 5:51 PM
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274: I don't feel like I have contempt for him, it's more of a sadness that our relationship isn't working out as I hoped.

Contempt might not be the right word, but I think Halford's 268 is describing a common way for a relationship to break down, where you start to see superficial annoying behaviors as symptoms of some underlying character flaw. Moreover, Bill Clinton, if he's aware that he's screwing things up, might also want you to attribute his mistakes to some immutable character flaw on his part, because that frees him from any obligation to try to fix things. </projecting my own relationship problems onto yours>


Posted by: torrey pine | Link to this comment | 03- 6-14 9:53 PM
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I did believe him at the time. My hypothesis was that this whole conversation was motivated by the fact that when he was very young he had spent three years in seminary studying to be a priest, but had lost his faith, went through the expected dark night of the soul, etc. So that maybe even though that was a long time ago, saying no to sex to him still is freighted with a lot of rigidity that he rejected. That was his reason for saying that "I don't want to," was "the perfect answer" -- he felt that "I don't want to" meant "I am not letting imposed constraints restrict the expression of my authentic desire," when that wasn't what it meant to me, although it was true that I wasn't letting imposed constraints restrict the expression of my authentic desire, except to the extent that desire itself is shaped by those constraints.

I didn't feel pressured or hurt. I was just mildly exasperated at the implication that the sex you're refusing is this beautiful gift that lights up the minute with the fire and music that give life meaning. The exasperation comes from accumulated fatigue at not having my perspective and experience understood, although I'm sure there are many ways I'm failing to appreciate other peoples'.

He invited me to the symphony. (I couldn't go on that day, or thought I couldn't, so now we're just going to have dinner the day before.) I think that's a move that signals that even if he didn't get it before, he sees now that he's going to have to treat this a little more like a conventional dating relationship.


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03- 7-14 6:40 AM
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I've been single for a while now. I really wasn't lonely until I became an empty nester. Even after being an empty nester, I stayed fairly busy dating. But it is difficult to find the right combination. Lots of factors to consider.

Do they have kids? How old are their kids? Do they want more kids? (Do they wear make up!?!?)

So, I finally decided to try online dating a month or so ago. It is exhausting. It wasn't that I was crushed by the onslaught of fabulous women who wanted me desperately. It just involved so much checking websites and emailing and going on first dates. And you have to learn the rules about ignoring emails/responding to emails/sending emails/blah blah blah.

I should have just asked Tia for a 15 minute tutorial.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 7-14 7:16 AM
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I've been single for a while now. I really wasn't lonely until I became an empty nester. Even after being an empty nester, I stayed fairly busy dating. But it is difficult to find the right combination. Lots of factors to consider.

Do they have kids? How old are their kids? Do they want more kids? (Do they wear make up!?!?)

So, I finally decided to try online dating a month or so ago. It is exhausting. It wasn't that I was crushed by the onslaught of fabulous women who wanted me desperately. It just involved so much checking websites and emailing and going on first dates. And you have to learn the rules about ignoring emails/responding to emails/sending emails/blah blah blah.

I should have just asked Tia for a 15 minute tutorial.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 03- 7-14 7:16 AM
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And you have to learn the rules about ignoring emails/responding to emails/sending emails/blah blah blah.

Is there a FAQ for this?


Posted by: Zachary Taylor | Link to this comment | 03- 7-14 7:39 AM
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If you submit an ATM, there could be. We can show off Flippanter as proof that the Mineshaft's dating advice is incomparable.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03- 7-14 7:41 AM
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It's too bad that happened before it would have been possible to make "Twitch plays OKCupid" jokes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 7-14 7:42 AM
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Will, we should have a swimming/online dating skillshare!


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03- 7-14 8:35 AM
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An online dating advice thread would be a good idea. I messaged someone on OKC last night and she actually responded!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 8-14 10:33 PM
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What's OKC?


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 03- 8-14 10:35 PM
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An ATA.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 8-14 10:38 PM
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OkCupid. It's an online dating site.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 8-14 10:38 PM
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(Age-testing acronym.)


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03- 8-14 10:38 PM
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I'm not actually in need of advice myself; I already responded to her message and I think I have a good sense of how to handle this. But I think it would be an interesting topic for a thread, and some other commenters upthread seem to agree.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 8-14 10:44 PM
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OK Computer. It was an album by Radiohead back in the dark ages.

Teo, you of all people should know better than to ask for dating advice here!


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 4:29 AM
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298 to 299. I'm not asking for advice myself; I just think this would be an interesting topic for a thread.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 4:32 AM
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Do they have kids? How old are their kids? Do they want more kids? (Do they wear make up!?!?)

Wait, what about make up? Is that a dealbreaker? If so, then which (with/without)? I ask since my own OKC success story comes from a rather different cultural background than I do. To the topic at hand, she wears a lot of makeup, and I can't help but feel a twinge of "too much!" sometimes. But so far I haven't brought it up and I don't think I will.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 5:22 AM
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I met my husband on Match, so I might have a thing or two to contribute.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 7:49 AM
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So, a couple of days ago one of the keys on my keyring was gone.


Posted by: David the Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:18 AM
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OK, so the next question is which one?


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:23 AM
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Online dating is like wading through the comments section of all the websites hoping to find Unfogged. The answer isn't to get off the internet, but it sure is a lot of work and leaves you depressed about humanity. But we're out there.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:25 AM
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The answer isn't to get off the internet, but it sure is a lot of work and leaves you depressed about humanity. But we're out there

A few years ago my therapist, a man of my age, told me that these days it's the only way to do it. He wasn't giving me advice, just speaking generally. I think the point is that it's a venue allowing so much more exploration of personality and compatibility, in relative safety, than any other. The people you'd be likely to meet irl seem almost random by comparison, even when your associations are rather specialized, even arcane.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:35 AM
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Surely there's money to be made in writing an algorithm to solve this problem.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:37 AM
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I mean, one that works- I'm sure the dating sites have been trying for years.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:37 AM
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"If your best attempts at pick up lines are greeted with cries of 'New mouseover!', are you puzzled/hurt/delighted?"


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:47 AM
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Surely there's money to be made in writing an algorithm to solve this problem.

Oh, there was an article I almost posted at some point about this. Some guy wrote a script that signed up for thousands of profiles, and basically discovered statistically what kind of profile got the best response from the kind of women he liked best. Then he waded through first dates until he got involved with his current girlfriend.

He managed to seemingly skirt the razor's edge of maximizing his specific personal chances without misrepresenting himself or doing anything sleazy or manipulative - like what aspects of his actual personality should he emphasize in his profile, etc. Photos of him with his dog, that sort of thing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:52 AM
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310: I thought that article was discussed here, but I guess it was at the other place. Maybe... k-sky?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 8:59 AM
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"OK, so the next question is which one?"

Key to my bike.


Posted by: David the Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 9:00 AM
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The thing I liked about online dating (OKCupid) was the sense that you were pre-screening out lots of incompatible people. The percentage of people in this town I'd be compatible with, dating-wise, is really, really small. And that can be depressing if you're trying to meet new people out at bars or parties. But the feeling that, by answering more and more questions, I was weeding out incompatible people made the whole thing seem purposeful and kept me coming back. And then Thundersnow appeared and said something funny (about my beard) and then we dated and now we don't date but are still friends who once found five dollars.

On second thought, I'm involved in a sort of club at school that puts on a big event each spring. As it's nearly spring, this club is now in full swing. And it seems that nothing brings people together (in the sleeping-together sense) quite like working together on a project. So, really, will, you should probably go join a club of some sort (does RVA have anything like this?) or maybe go get really into building Habitat homes.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 9:00 AM
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Key to my bike

Hate that.

313.2 Gets at something important: working together brings out a purposeful, task-oriented compatibility, the moreso if it's physical.

I can remember giving teo tmi advice, I'm sure in the middle of the night then as now, about how working college jobs in kitchens: mixed company, heavy labor, sweat was the source of most of the truly casual encounters I've ever had in my whole life.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 9:07 AM
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One has to chip in a comment in favor of the online thing, as otherwise one would not have met She Who Must Be Obeyed TWYRCL, despite our having spent our college years about a mile apart.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 9:10 AM
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you should probably go join a club of some sortpolitical campaign


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 9:47 AM
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I did a bunch of online dating pre-Jammies. I liked it for the exact same reason as Stanley - it lets you sift through a lot of incompatible people very efficiently.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 9:59 AM
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The online thing worked for me almost 2 decades ago. Nothing formal, just "chemistry" after relatively few words exchanged in a Compu$erve forum and then in emails. I agree, the filtering is much more efficient on the net, I'd use it in preference to anything in meatspace if I were going to go looking again.


Posted by: biohazard | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 10:02 AM
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I really enjoy telling people "We met on craigslist" and watching their reaction. Even though in the time since then internet dating has been totally mainstreamed at the same time craigslist has gotten seedier.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 10:14 AM
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It makes me feel old to think that I can remember a time when online dating was still widely considered to be kind of weird.

Anyway, surely Wolfram Language will soon solve the dating problem once and for all. The only hitch is that Stephen Wolfram might end up with the legal rights to your relationship.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 10:23 AM
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I'd use it in preference to anything in meatspace if I were going to go looking again

Subjunctive case would do a fair amount of filtering all by itself.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 10:52 AM
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321: Yes, and my use of "yclept".


Posted by: biohazard | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 10:57 AM
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Anyway, surely Wolfram Language will soon solve the dating problem once and for all. The only hitch is that Stephen Wolfram might end up with the legal rights to your relationship.

Take my cellular automata... please!


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 11:04 AM
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I met my wife online!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 11:07 AM
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We have friends who met on Craigslist and have three kids now, they should get their kids to tell people they were conceived on Craigslist.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 11:49 AM
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I can't think of any non-weird explanation for my missing key, so I'm a bit worried I might be sleepwalking. It's creepy as fuck, anyway.


Posted by: David the Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 12:54 PM
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Maybe you ate it?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 03- 9-14 12:56 PM
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