Given that it's the 178th largest city in the country (per Wikipedia), and yet across the river from Nuevo Laredo (which in 2008 was the most dangerous city in the world), maybe not the worst idea to emphasize your safety when promoting tourism.
I think the idea is to point out to those who know about Nuevo Laredo that the violence isn't crossing the border without reminding those who don't know about Nuevo Laredo about the violence across the border.
That's why I said "poor Laredo". If your tourism bid starts with convincing people that you're safe (especially safer than your sister city where two mayors were assassinated within 19 days of each other) then you have a looooong uphill climb. Marketing Laredo as a tourist destination is tough in the best of times.
2 is probably right. Still, tough sell.
I don't know, the Lemurs seem like a natural draw.
Isn't the one thing most people know about Laredo that a young cowboy all dressed in white linen died on its streets of a gunshot to the chest?
That's pretty much all I know about Laredo.
7 made that song go through my head but then I realized I had switched to "Down in the west Texas town of El Paso...." I can't even do earworms right.
3 seems to me to nail it. It's like having your tourist slogan say, "Laredo, why the fuck would you want to come here anyway?"
"Laredo, where you stay while checking up on your assembly plant in Mexico."
Aw, I like the song in 9. The earworm I got from the post is "I saw a wainbow yestiddy..." from waterfalls.
El Paso is also surprisingly safe. I would have guessed that being a border town where the other side was incredibly dangerous would increase crime, but it actually might decrease crime. (Why shoot someone on the US side today when you could wait and shoot them on the Mexican side tomorrow?)
I like this one, a medley with its predecessor. The Texan gets to talk, at least. But no 'flash girls.'
10 makes me think of Indiana's state slogan, "The Crossroads of America", which I always render as "we're on the way to somewhere else."
13: Mexico will never improve its economy with that kind of attitude on procrastination.
Poor Laredo, so far from God, so close to Mexico.
15: A friend appends "where dreams go to die."
Taiwan had a longstanding advertising slogan of "Taiwan: beyond your expectations", which always seemed to be aiming kind of low to me, given the relativism. "I thought it was rubbish but it turned out kind of bearable".
Why shoot someone on the US side today when you could wait and shoot them on the Mexican side tomorrow?
This is presumably the slogan on Nuevo Laredo's billboards.
Given that twenty years ago most people would have been familiar with Taiwan mostly for cheaply manufactured consumer goods, it doesn't seem like a bad idea for a slogan.
I saw a Taiwan tourism booth that had signs saying "Taiwan is not Thailand!" So sad... that's just not how it's done, especially in a place like DC.
El Paso is also surprisingly safe. I would have guessed that being a border town where the other side was incredibly dangerous would increase crime
Coincidentally sat in on a conversation about this Monday. Supposedly for a while the stats were massaged in one county (Presidio?) on the specious reasoning that you couldn't classify it a murder if you couldn't identify the victim.
Also, while violent crime is low, corruption and bribery - especially of CBP officers - is supposed to have increased significantly in the past several years.
22: I don't know. People have trouble with that one. "You have relatives from Taiwan? I love spicy food!"
I should add that I've run into that confusion multiple times in DC.
Malaysia has gone with "Truly Asia" though which is kind of essentialist and snotty.
I had a hell of a time in 1992 convincing my relatives that they weren't sending me to Peace Corps Somalia.
I'd love to do a tourist trip to the South Texas border towns. A Rio Grande driving trip going to El Paso, Marfa, Big Bend, Nuevo Laredo, ending up in Brownsville (or maybe Corpus Christi) is a trip I've wanted to do for a while would be insanely interesting, one of the more interesting routes in the US. Of course time and adulthood will make this trip impossible but I'd love to do it.
New Zealand tourism slogans from Flight of the Conchords
22: One coworker kept referring to another as Taiwanese when he's Thai. I'm pretty sure she knew he was from Thailand but struggled with the adjective, but maybe I'm giving her too much credit. It is sad, though. Hate to think what it says to folks from those countries. "Americans - confused by monosyllabic countries!"
28: Bringing your trusty captive bolt pistol one presumes.
Ok, fine, I can be persuaded that Taiwan really does have a Thailand-name-recognition problem. But that just seems like a lousy place to start the conversation. I wish they'd talk about food, or scenery, or history, or their semiconductor industry, or really anything else, before getting to the WE ARE NOT THAILAND! part.
Along these lines, I like the signs advertising the "Surprisingly interesting Baltimore museum of industry!"
I still haven't gone though.
32: unspoken for political reasons is the second part of the slogan, which is "NOR ARE WE PART OF ANY OTHER LARGE ASIAN COUNTRY THAT MIGHT COME TO MIND, LIKE, OOH, I DON'T KNOW, CAMBODIA, TO PICK ONE AT RANDOM".
Oops, it's the Baltimore Public Works museum and apparently it closed in 2010.
Not surprisingly interesting enough, it seems.
34: geez you call one teeny province "Siem Reap" and suddenly people get all touchy.
34: Indeed, Taiwan is coy about its plans to retake the mainland!
15: More miles of interstate per square mile than any other state!
Speaking of, I'm expecting Quemoy and Matsu to come back as election issues in 2016. It's over due.
Taiwan: We'd Still Be Called China if Nixon Hadn't Meddled
I dunno...Taiwan might want to capitalize on people's confusion. Thailand is a major global tourist destination, so the confusion would have to break in Taiwan's favor. Renaming themselves Thaiwan (Thaiwand?) might be a good first step.
Americans also routinely confuse Sweden and Switzerland. The names both start with Sw, but don't have much in common after that. The countries don't have all that much in common either.
They're both cold, more or less neutral, and full of well-off blond people.
33. There is a museum in Baltimore that has a bunch of industrial machinery, including a working Linotype. The guy who runs the linotype doesn't come in every day.
Americans also routinely confuse Sweden and Switzerland.
Seriously?
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This is a good thing, I think?
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44: Both countries in Europe, both start with "Sw", both neutral in WW2 -- how could we not confuse them?
Also, Americans often believe the Danish speak Dutch.
They could, if they applied themselves.
48: And obviously the people in Holland speak Hollish.
28 describes a dream trip of mine, though maybe my version would be taking the train some and renting cars some. HALFORD AND SMEARCASE ROAD TRIP 2014 WOO.
24 would also have the nice odd couple pairing that makes for a truly successful road trip, since we could combine Broadway show tunes in the car with daily workouts at faith-based Crossfit affiliates. I'll see if we can finance the trip by selling the novelization and TV rights in advance.
There's a guy hitchhiking on the intestate. Haven't seen that in a while.
right. Generally, where there's not a will there's not a way.
26: Perhaps the same people confused by Taiwan/Thailand think Malaysia is some sort of mal-Asia to be avoided.
I would totally drive down and meet Smearcase and Halford for brunch in Laredo during their Rendevous Through the Valley.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Z9kNVTXS0
I'm pretty sure heebie in 57 speaks for all of us. And the tv show would be the US version of The Trip, maybe.
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Meta-anxiety is the worst. I'm almost out of meds, and I'm worried that the next package won't arrive before I leave for a big family vacation. This is causing me to stress out about possibly stressing out.
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60: Can you (or Mary Todd, if it's too stressful for you, which is the one situation in which same-sex relationships are way superior because you can just lie about who you are) call the prescribing physician and ask to have the amount you need for the trip called in to a local pharmacy just in case? Presumably you'd have to pay more but it sounds like it would be worth it for peace of mind.
And apologies if I wrongly assumed you have a partner. "Big family vacation" could just mean family who doesn't live with you, but that didn't occur to me immediately.
And the tv show would be the US version of The Trip, maybe.
This has to happen!
Millions will tune in to see us drive into the Grand Canyon at the end. (It will have to be relocated to Texas.)
Called the dr., but its not really helping, because you know the thing about mental illness is that you are being irrational.
I'm sorry, Abe. I was answering with logistics but the obvious answer is that of course you're stressed by this. Even people who don't take anti-anxiety medication would want anti-anxiety meds for a big family vacation, right? You're actually being totally reasonable here.
Around here they've just started promoting Braddock's Field as the "Site of the 2nd Biggest Native American Victory in US History!"
That seems flawed on several levels.
Yes, it is totally reasonable to need anti-anxiety meds for family stuff. Which makes me think maybe I'll get some in advance of my sister's wedding later this summer. (20 years old is too young to get married, right? But there's nothing to be done about it.)
You can jump up when they ask for objections.
You could hire me to seduce her away from her intended if she has a thing for married guys more than twice her age.
The tourism bid for the place I am now should be something like "the part of Italy where you can get random deep-fried objects to eat and things that look and taste kinda like Totino's Pizza Rolls".
68.2: That calls for Xanax washed down with alcohol. Starting on the plane.
60/65: Good luck, and that sucks. Travel is stressful enough. At worst, most big pharmacy chains will call your doc's office and fill a mini-prescription to get you through a trip if you have the empty bottle or info.
70: or hook her up with Ulysses S Grant's mother's new husband?
The American worker can't get a break because of people like you.
At worst, most big pharmacy chains will call your doc's office and fill a mini-prescription to get you through a trip if you have the empty bottle or info.
Yeah, pharmacists are usually really helpful in situations like that.
You can jump up when they ask for objections.
Sadly, it's one of those "family-friendly" Mormon weddings where I can't attend the actual ceremony because I don't have a card to get into the temple.
How is a reason not to attend a wedding awful? In general, I mean. Not going to a sibling wedding wouldn't be great, but for most other wedding occasions, it would be nice to have an out.
A dry reception is the real horror.
37: IME, when drink had been taken, Taiwanese guys are surprisingly not coy about their plans to take over the mainland. They are the most patriotic people I've ever met. I've been to a cousin's wedding where something like three quartets of the father of the bride's toast was about Taiwan.
Maybe he didn't like his new son-in-law.
@78: There was a girl in my graduate program who was like that, and she didn't even require drink: ultra political and would turn every conversation into a lecture about Taiwan's legitimate claim to the mainland.
I we t to a relative's wedding this year where the service was full of references to coding, burning man, and whatever the "maker's" movement is and where the couple asked for donations to the Electronic Frontier Foundation in lieu of gifts. Fortunately it wasn't a dry reception because let's just say that a lot of scotch was drunk by one guest.
I paid hard cash for the Indian massacre book but haven't read it yet because of French comuniss Thomas Piketty.
Wrong thread for 83, but a player like me just doesn't care.
Dry receptions really are the worst. Nobody dances, and none of the groomsmen has an excuse for hooking up with me.
Halford's relative sounds charming. Also it is seriously hilarious the degree to which I embody everything Halford hates. Wait, I kinda have a goatee! Hmmmm.
You guys would totally be BFFs. And she's a charming wonderful person. But it's the principle of the thing.
Americans also routinely confuse Sweden and Switzerland.
Seriously?
Seriously.
Lantos went on to describe for the president how the Swedish Army might be an ideal candidate to anchor a small peacekeeping force on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Sweden has a well-trained force of about 25,000. The president looked at him appraisingly, several people in the room recall.''I don't know why you're talking about Sweden,'' Bush said. ''They're the neutral one. They don't have an army.''
Lantos paused, a little shocked, and offered a gentlemanly reply: ''Mr. President, you may have thought that I said Switzerland. They're the ones that are historically neutral, without an army.'' Then Lantos mentioned, in a gracious aside, that the Swiss do have a tough national guard to protect the country in the event of invasion.
Bush held to his view. ''No, no, it's Sweden that has no army.''
I'm sure Europeans confuse Guinea and Guinea-Bissau or Montana and Missouri but don't get too worked up about it. I mean I love Switzerland and Sweden both but they don't really come up that much. Doesn't really excuse the President I guess.
I just drove past a tastee freeze and a hobby lobby. I'm in some weird foreign country.
Heaven's not a foreign country, SP.
93: stop by and say hi, stranger.
Actually I think I'm in ogged-land. It is heaven!
I did check-in at the other place if you want to know where I actually am. About an hour west.
When I was living in Australia, it was also a big deal when Bush thanked them for sending "Austrian troops" to Iraq. He also referred to APEC as OPEC. But even though Americans confuse the names Austria and Australia, they don't actually confuse the places.
Mixing up Sweden and Switzerland is far less egregious than, say, thinking Africa is a country, but it's tiresome if it occurs to you on a regular basis.
Sweden also has one of the oldest standing armies in the world. That would have been so awkward to be there with GWB.
OT: Today in the Polish parliament during a no-confidence debate:
Head of third largest party: Whore!
Speaker: Mr. Deputy!
Head of third largest party: I'm just quoting the minister.
Speaker: Ok, but not in parliament.
One thing I've learned from the tape scandal is that our foreign minister really likes sexual metaphors. The Poles give Americans blowjobs (and the Americans don't return the favor), Victor Orban keeps giving Putin handjobs (cause that's just the kind of cheap slut he is), and David Cameron is getting his brains fucked out (and not in a good way).
Sweden/Switzerland seemed to be a problem for some colleges sending me brochures back in high school. The Swedish postal service however didn't have a problem with figuring out that rue [xx], Geneva, Sweden meant Switzerland.
Sweden is also neutral, though. Has been since 1809. So Swedish/Swiss neutrality is a thing that lends to the confusion.
I think the Taiwanese government still had maps showing their China including the mainland as late as the 1980s. But I may be confusing this with old West German politicians griping about the Oder-Neisse.
When I was in a Goethe Institute in Germany in the mid nineties my classroom had a map with the 1937 borders and a faint dotted line separating the 'under Soviet occupation' part and 'under Polish administration section'. The teacher and head of the institute were profusely apologetic in the way liberal Germans get in situations like that.
101
True, but Sweden is neutral with an army.
Both Sweden and Switzerland made it out of WW2 with better reputations than they ought to have, but probably Switzerland has the biggest mismatch.
If Wikipedia can be gone by, Sweden is now non-aligned rather than neutral - maybe something about being open to purely defensive alliances. At the same time, some people at Wikipedia seem to have a bug up their ass about the policy not making them omnipotent angels.
Also, how is Switzerland's militia not effectively an army? They have more active-duty personnel than Austria.
Also, how is Switzerland's militia not effectively an army? They have more active-duty personnel than Austria.
Provided you don't try to show up before 8:30 am, after 5 pm, or between 11-1 pm.
But the Swedes have a real military, which is different from Switzerland.
At the same time, some people at Wikipedia seem to have a bug up their ass about the policy not making them omnipotent angels.
Yeah, wow, that is straight out of the textbook defensive Swedish apologetics. It would be like if the article on Nazi Germany in WW2 had a section being like, "You know, Hitler was an Austrian, and anyways, what were we supposed to be, psychic? The Bolsheviks were a big threat to Germany in the 30s. But you wouldn't understand, anyways, what do you know! Why do you young people blame us for everything? It was mostly Goebbels's fault, anyways. I need my meds!!"
But the Swedes have a real military, which is different from Switzerland.
No kidding, they "sank" a US carrier during a war game in 2007.
Given this is now the semi-gratuitous WW2 thread, one of the reasons that Sweden wasn't invaded is likely because they'd spent the 30s building up their armed forces. Given the difficulties of invading the non-armed Nordic countries, Hitler and Stalin thought twice about invading the Nordic country with an actually decent army.
I would totally be down for a road trip through the Texas border towns, of course (and may actually do it some day). There's so much cool stuff down there, only some of which I've seen. Hueco Tanks! Ysleta del Sur! Seminole Canyon! Those crazy ranches where you can hunt exotic game!
(Those are all places I haven't been. I've been to Marfa and Big Bend.)
Last year, without thinking about time zones, I left Blythe, CA at what seemed like a reasonable not too late hour, driving east. Crossed Arizona, then New Mexico, then got to Texas and realized I had just gone from the east edge of one zone across another and then across the west edge of another and it was now 2 hours later than I expected it to be when I planned that day's drive.
I ended up in Van Horn, at midnight, and it was windy and chilly, in the 30s. Supposedly there's a lot to see within reach of Van Horn but I got up and drove east for about the same number of hours and miles as the day before. I was still in Texas.
I haven't really been anywhere out there except watching it all go by out a train window and getting out for a minute in Alpine. Maybe West Texas should always remain this thing I find wildly intriguing that I haven't discovered is actually boring.
Supposedly there's a lot to see within reach of Van Horn
There is, but it's not, like, close. "Within reach" is a pretty flexible concept in West Texas.
Maybe West Texas should always remain this thing I find wildly intriguing that I haven't discovered is actually boring.
Well, there is actually a lot of interesting stuff. Actually getting to it involves a lot of driving, though.
Wait, what is this bullshit about the Swiss not having an army in the world wars? Swiss neutrality was and is armed neutrality (less so today), and in both world wars the difficulty of attacking Switzerland was one major factor (among others, including the benefits of neutrality and concessions to major powers) that kept Switzerland from being invaded. The country remained quite militarized through the cold war with a consistent plan of making it too unpleasant to invade to be worth it for any major power.
Potential invading forces would have to wait until they were sure of their success beyond a reasonable redoubt.
Probably the most interesting thing near west Texas for me is Carlsbad Caverns, but I finally went there this year. So I'd be up for an actually in Texas west Texas trip. On the other hand, there's a smell in what I assume are heavy oil producing/processing areas that kind of makes me nauseous. Noticed it on the way east and then back west.
I kind of imagine us sticking away from the oil-producing areas, closer to the river and in the weird ass desert mountains. I know a guy who owns a huge ranch near Van Horn where he kills and eats all kinds of wildlife, in case that entices anyone.
Yeah, there's a pretty big difference between the Permian Basin and the Rio Grande Valley. Both have interesting stuff, but the latter is probably more pleasant in general.
Assuming you stay on the American side, I guess.
Switzerland still has an army. If you ride the trains in Switzerland, it's not that unusual to be on a train car with somebody in an army uniform carrying an automatic weapon. (The weapons are always broken down into two pieces, I assume by army regulation.)
No one is saying the Swiss didn't have an army during WW2. And both Sweden and Switzerland had the same strategy, which was to be a "tough nut to crack." The difference is that Sweden doesn't have the fortune to be perched at the top of Europe's tallest mountain range, so they had to have a much larger military than Switzerland. They also had the very real possibility of a two front war with Hitler and Stalin. I can't find exact figures for Switzerland, but here are the figures for Sweden. Sweden was the second strongest naval power in the Baltic, after the USSR.
By 1945 the Swedes had a standing infantry army of over a million men, about 600 aircraft fighters, almost 900 bombers, some with the ability to reach Moscow, 800 tanks, 28 destroyers, etc.
From what I can find the Swiss had a bunch of heavily armed forts, some anti-aircraft cannon, and a total military size of 430K. Yes, the Swiss had an army, but it's really not a comparison.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_equipment_of_Sweden_during_World_War_II
*I mean, the same strategy of being a tough nut to crack while simultaneously cutting morally dubious deals with the Germans.
Sweden is also neutral, though. Has been since 1809. So Swedish/Swiss neutrality is a thing that lends to the confusion.
But both countries have a rich set of mostly non-overlapping national stereotypes and well known factoids. I mean, it seriously hadn't occurred to me before that anyone would ever confuse them (and Bush doesn't count because there's nothing he couldn't confuse). Are the Swedes notorious for keeping stolen Jewish gold? Are the Swiss famous for their furniture emporiums?
109. Stalin had probably also noticed that he had been unable to conquer Finland; therefore Sweden might be a country too far.
99. TKM, I'm all for Daveybloke being roundly abused by people with some influence in the world, but what happened to make the Polish government step up to the plate at this moment? I feel I've missed something.
There was some sort of scandal with leaked tapes, I think.
127. Thanks. Still not quite clear, but it's something to google.
Switzerland was on the winning side of WWII*, the Milo Minderbinder side.
*Actually, WWII + Cold War.
A lot of hard-faced men who look as if they had done very well out of the war.
Nixon was a small-scale Milo during the war.
"The Seabees did it and we got the materials in various ways -- all more or less legal!" Nixon wrote Pat, after a round of successful scheming that left he and his team of air-traffic coordinators with screened tents, showers, a 12-seat latrine, and a mess hall. "It all took a lot of bargaining but now that it's done I feel pretty happy."
Nixon shared the fruits of his finagling with the transport pilots whose missions he helped orchestrate. They carried supplies to the front, and fetched the wounded back, and would stash an extra case or two of beer or Coca-Cola on their planes for the well-liked proprietor of "Nick's Snack Shop," who served them hamburger sandwiches, with cold juice or coffee, between flights. An extra case of beer, Nixon knew, went a long way with the Seabees.He also won a lot at poker.
"You asked how much of the $675 was from poker," Dick Nixon wrote his wife, Pat, in July 1944. "All of it! In fact I've won over a thousand to date. More about that later."
Both Sweden and Switzerland made it out of WW2 with better reputations than they ought to have, but probably Switzerland has the biggest mismatch.
I'd disagree, actually. Switzerland kept hold of a lot of gold for a lot of unpleasant people. That's unquestionably immoral but it wasn't actually doing anything to help the Nazis win. In fact, if the gold had been kept in the Reich instead, it might have been seized and used to buy stuff for the war effort. Sweden, on the other hand, actually sold vital war material to the Germans - ball bearings, iron ore, and even weapons like the very excellent Oerlikon 20mm cannon and the equally good Bofors 40mm cannon.*
*both of which a very young ajay learned to shoot in his spare time, though he had to stand on a box to reach the controls of the Oerlikon, because it wasn't designed for child soldiers.
131: I heard of a guy who pulled off a similar deal in Iraq, hiring a passing Royal Engineer to dig a big hole in the ground with a JCB, bribing a Kuwaiti water tanker driver to sidetrack his cargo, paying another Kuwaiti to bring up a plastic pool liner from Kuwait in the back of a truck, and finally pinching a boarding staircase from Basra International Airport. Result: swimming pool with high diving board!
(A passing general: "What's that over there?"
"Er, emergency water supply, sir. For fire-fighting."
"Why is it chlorinated?"
"Health reasons, sir. Stops the mosquitos breeding."
"...and the diving board?"
"No explanation, sir.")
"Camouflage, sir. We're disguising it as a swimming pool so the enemy won't target it."
"Ah, that's the Bluth Company's vehicle sir. They're inspecting the homes they built here."
Okay, so Halford will work on the movie rights to fund the project. Whichever commenters have forced their kids to major in petroleum engineering can now make them stake out a spot in the Permian Basin, where Moby can build a giant cob house(/cob sex grotto?) to serve as home base for Mineshaft Texas. What else do we need?
For reasons unknown, a passing Texan gave my parents a case of Modelo beer. Is that a Texas thing?
It's a common beer. I like it. Especial or Negra?
But both countries have a rich set of mostly non-overlapping national stereotypes and well known factoids....Are the Swedes notorious for keeping stolen Jewish gold? Are the Swiss famous for their furniture emporiums?
Both of these are not prominent facts in my mind. As in, the Jewish gold one I know, but if you told me I had the country wrong I'd probably believe you. The furniture one I had no idea what you meant until halfway through writing this sentence and now I realize how obvious it was all along.
Obviously, I'll just drink one and see. But later as I doubt it compliments Cheerios and coffee.
126 Sikorski was referring to the results of Cameron's diplomacy in the EU and his handling of his own party. It's part of hundreds of hours of secretly recorded private conversations by senior government officials. A group of waiters installed bugs in the Warsaw elite's favorite restaurant VIP rooms. Who was behind it, and how one of Poland's main newsweeklies got hold of them is unclear. There is talk of corrupt businessmen with grudges and ties to the Russian energy sector, but that could just be convenient spin/lies.
The officials seem to curse a lot, and by that I mean Deadwood amounts, and forget about diplomatic niceties when talking privately. They also engage in wheeling and dealing. The two most explosive conversations involve the head of the central bank negotiating the terms of propping up the economy in the run up to next years elections and a minister offering to help a businessman with some tax problems. In the latter case the fact that the minister had been dismissed several months before the tapes were revealed limits the damage. In the former the terms at least don't involve any bribery or other personal advantage, just getting rid of the finance minister (he was fired soon afterwards, pure coincidence I'm sure). I'm sure there's more to come, only a small portion has been released. My main worry is that this might help the opposition win next year. The governing party sucks, but the opposition sucks way, way more.
What else do we need?
Can we have an ekranoplan? Maybe with a ball turret mounted Oerlikon 20mm cannon. For ajay.
I mean, there are quite a few of them. One has the Large Hadron Collider, while the other has a ridiculously long bridge to Denmark. One gave us Ingmar Bergman while the other gave us banking secrecy laws and tax evasion. One makes fighter jets and the other makes chocolate. One protects the Pope, the other protects Volvo drivers. One of them has four official languages, the other is notoriously culturally homogeneous. One is famed for its parental leave policies, the other is famed for its clocks and watches.
144: But possibly fitted for child soldiers, just in case?
147 Sure, and by the time we get it built the Unfogged babysplosion cohort should be the just the right age.
I know all the stereotypes mentioned so far except the fighter jets and the Nazi gold one.
148 should be the just s/b should be just
One makes fighter jets and the other makes chocolate and keeps its fighter jets hidden in secret caves in the mountains.
I think the Taiwanese government still had maps showing their China including the mainland as late as the 1980s.
They also included territories, like (Outer) Mongolia, that were part of Imperial China but which the PRC has stopped claiming.
One is also known for it's biggest party's very distinctive campaign posters style: For better security ( the little smile face holding a Swiss flag and saying 'Swiss Quality' is a nice touch) or Stop or Passports for all? (Ann Coulter must love them given how she just wrote that people with foreign born great-grandparents are clearly not real Americans).
On the other hand the Swiss really don't have an iconic furniture company with byzantine ownership structures and run by a Nazi activist.
The interesting thing about the Swiss Air Force is that it's equipped with fighters designed for carrier based service because of the shortage of long runways in Switzerland.
And also because you need a pretty compact plane to fit it inside a secret cave in a mountain, I'd assume.
Thunderbird 2 wasn't very compact.
I bow to none in my appreciation for the realism of supermarionation but they might have had access to engineering solutions denied even the Swiss.
Or a pretty wide secret cave.
Supposedly there's a lot to see within reach of Van Horn but I got up and drove east for about the same number of hours and miles as the day before. I was still in Texas.
Re: Swedish fighter jets, and in connection with that awful dragon-f***ing-a-car image that was linked here a while back, here is a picture of a Saab Draken.
.The difference is that Sweden doesn't have the fortune to be perched at the top of Europe's tallest mountain range, so they had to have a much larger military than Switzerland.
Quite but not quite. The major cities of Switzerland are at the bottom of the mountains, not the top; Bern and Basel are basically undefendable and Zurich and Geneva not much less so. Swiss national defence strategy has always been to abandon the cities and fight the guerrilla war from hell in the mountains (although, apparently, anyone trying to take a mechanised army through Basel would encounter more than enough nasty surprises to make him reconsider the wisdom of the plan before the town fell).
Sweden has a smaller army than Switzerland if you count reservists, which you have to because that's how the Swiss army works. It has a larger standing army and much more of a capacity to fight outside its borders (a totally alien concept to the Swiss), but that's at least as much a legacy of its past as a pretty major imperial power as anything else.
It really is hard to beat Switzerland's consistent 20th century military strategy for awesome-soundingness. "Abandon the cities, retreat to the underground mountain lair and fight 'til the death" just sounds cool.
It is even more awesome than you imagine. If all the population are military reservists then, for example, all the architects and civil engineers are reservist military engineers. Apparently (never officially admitted but widely known to be true) the entire Swiss road system, all the tunnels and all the bridges, can be turned into a massive booby trap if need be.
164: Don't forget the bicycle troops!
McPhee's La Place de la Concorde Suisse, about the Swiss army, is dated but still worth reading. And probably shorter than one chapter of Piketty.
164: Some of the underground mountain lairs are now hotels.
Also, Swiss apartment buildings come with bomb shelters, so it's like every single person in Switzerland has their own underground lair.
164: And put into action when the Tripods came.
132: Sweden, on the other hand, actually sold vital war material to the Germans - ball bearings, iron ore, and even weapons like the very excellent Oerlikon 20mm cannon and the equally good Bofors 40mm cannon.
Well, that was part of their strategy of remaining uninvaded, plus the German conquest of Norway made it difficult for them to sell to the Allies as well. If Sweden had withheld the exports, it might have been worth Hitler's while to invade to get access to the exports again; as long as they were willing to export freely, there wasn't really any good reason for him to do so (plus the "tough nut to crack" bit).
I'm sure the Allies would have preferred that Sweden not export that stuff, but they weren't really in a position to protect Sweden from the consequences until rather late in the war. "Dude - if we stop exporting, you'll give us the same security guarantees you gave Poland? Thanks, but I think we'll carry on here just the same."
The Swedes were consistently neutral on the winning side throughout WW2: I once talked to an old person who had been one of our spooks in Helsinki and said it was hilarious how Swedish attitudes changed after Stalingrad.
Since at least the mid-Sixties the Swedish armed forces have been a complete joke. A friend of mine did part of his national service as part of the ceremonial guard outside the royal palace in Stockholm (in a hairnet). Inside the sentry box was a big grey button to press in case of emergency - it summoned the police.
It was labeled, "In case someone is standing too close to you."
Oh I should go delete that out of embarrassment.
Yes, the Swiss plan of retreating into mountain fortresses and fighting to the death with bayonets if necessary is cool, but we're not talking about which country had the cooler defense plan, but which country had the larger military in WW2. The answer is still Sweden, by a long shot.
No one has provided any information or cited anything which indicates the Swiss defense plan relied on actual military deterrence rather than 'mountains.' And yes, bombing your country to smithereens and then retreating into the mountains is still relying on mountains as your primary form of defense.
Actually, your original claim was that Switzerland was neutral without an army, which turned out to be totally wrong. You then, after googling and realizing you were completely wrong, retreated to a claim about the size of the army (which is also basically wrong, if you include reservists, as you must for Switzerland). Now you've retreated further to the bizarre claim that somehow building massive military fortifications in the country's terrain was not a military strategy. The fact is that both Sweden and Switzerland during the world wars had policies of armed neutrality designed to convince major powers that it would be too costly to invade because of a largely militarized population and competent defensive armed force. I don't know why you're continuing to fight this battle you started for no reason, but it might be better to imitate either Switzerland or Sweden and fight on safer defensive terrain you know something about.
No one is saying the Swiss didn't have an army during WW2. And both Sweden and Switzerland had the same strategy, which was to be a "tough nut to crack." The difference is that Sweden doesn't have the fortune to be perched at the top of Europe's tallest mountain range, so they had to have a much larger military than Switzerland.
This is the claim I made. It's still the claim I'm sticking by. No one has cited anything to the contrary. Show figures that the Swiss had a larger army. Any figures I can find place the Swiss army, with reserves, at a total 850K. That's still smaller than the standing Swedish army of 1 million, not counting the Swedish reserves. If you can easily prove the Swiss military was larger, than do so. If you can't than simply saying you're right doesn't make you so, especially when you're obviously wrong:
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/18358-swiss-army-in-wwii/
I made a comment about the Swedish military *unrelated* to Switzerland--that the Swedes had a real military during WW2 (in implicit contrast to the other Nordic countries), which was a point of deterrence. Nowhere did I ever claim that this was in contrast to Switzerland during the war. I was simply pointing out that, consistent with the point that Sweden actually has one of the oldest standing armies in Europe, they were an actual military force during WW2.
But the Swedes have a real military, which is different from Switzerland.
Notice how this comment is in the present tense.
This claim I'm willing to back off from a bit, because Switzerland does have more active personnel than the Sweden, presuming active personnel are counted in the same way. The Swedes spend more on their military every year than the Swiss (over 6 billion USD vs. not quite 5 billion USD for the Swiss).
If you want to hang your hat on a relatively small difference in total army size, go for it, but your original distinction between the two was pretty clearly straight bullshit, as you now admit.
If anything, the more I'm reading about the Swiss army during WW2, the less I'd call it an army. Destroying your country and fighting a guerrilla war in mountain caves isn't the strategy of a country with an army.
If you want to hang your hat on a relatively small difference in total army size,
Um no. If we're talking about the very specific argument that the Swedish military was better (bigger, more powerful) during WW2, which is indisputable, then it rests on the fact the Swedish military was better, basically, in every single respect. The claim you made in response was that the Swiss military was bigger. However, the *total size* of the Swiss military, including reservists, was at max 850K. The Swedish standing infantry army was over 1 million, not including reserves, not including other branches like the navy or air force. And the Swedes had a better navy than the Germans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_equipment_of_Sweden_during_World_War_II
The Swedes had a plan to prevent invasion of Sweden and if necessary launch counter attacks. The Swiss planned to bomb their own cities and hide in the mountains and fight to the death. Notice that one of these plans relies on having a military that provides credible deterrence. The other relies on living up in the mountains.
The way this argument got started:
You said: Wait, what is this bullshit about the Swiss not having an army in the world wars? Swiss neutrality was and is armed neutrality (less so today), and in both world wars the difficulty of attacking Switzerland was one major factor (among others, including the benefits of neutrality and concessions to major powers) that kept Switzerland from being invaded.
My response was: No one is saying the Swiss didn't have an army during WW2. And both Sweden and Switzerland had the same strategy, which was to be a "tough nut to crack." The difference is that Sweden doesn't have the fortune to be perched at the top of Europe's tallest mountain range, so they had to have a much larger military than Switzerland.
This point is absolutely true, and no one has cited anything even remotely contrary.
The point about contemporary I made was that the Swiss had a militia not an army, whereas the Swedes have an army. That I'm willing to back off on, but that has nothing to do with the Swiss vs. Swedish armies in WW2
If you had said, "bullshit, the current Swiss army is bigger than the current Swedish army, even given that it's mostly a militia" or something like that, then I would say, "oh, my bad."
True, but Sweden is neutral with an army.
Both Sweden and Switzerland made it out of WW2 with better reputations than they ought to have, but probably Switzerland has the biggest mismatch.
Ok, here's another place that might have seemed confusing, because I mentioned the current Swedish army and bring up Switzerland during the war in the same comment, except the latter part of the comment refers to the whitewashing of both Sweden and Switzerland's post WW2 reputations, and not Swiss military capabilities.
anyone trying to take a mechanised army through Basel would encounter more than enough nasty surprises to make him reconsider the wisdom of the plan
Anyone trying to take a taxi through Basel will have a very similar experience.
Apparently (never officially admitted but widely known to be true) the entire Swiss road system, all the tunnels and all the bridges, can be turned into a massive booby trap if need be.
Also southern England - a lot of bridges built between certain dates have cavities built into the piers and arches that are in exactly the right place to put a demolition charge.
