Re: High Dudgeon

1

Very, very very sad on all side, but regarding the 3 shot Israeli teenagers, the thing I always wonder is---how and why does one always assume it's terrorism and not simple . . .murder. Three american teen boys hitchhiking in the dessert in the US who turned up shot would not necessarily draw charges of terrorism, or have wider implications of guilt or complicity for the community in which they were killed. Why do we assume that a politically charged war zone has fewer dacoits and serial killers than other places?


Posted by: Ile | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 4:51 PM
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I'm going to take a stab at answering (1) and observe that it's convenient for the Israeli government to have an excuse to cause trouble with Palestine and to have some sort of rallying cry to get (even more) support for killing Palestinians. If it genuinely was Hamas it was kind of a bizarre thing to do (kidnap a couple people.... secretly?). But it's really great stuff from the perspective of the Netanyahu administration.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 5:01 PM
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I have already composed one restrained, simply inquisitive comment to a friend's facebook page and deleted it before posting.

Why do we assume that a politically charged war zone has fewer dacoits and serial killers than other places?

as a proportion of murders, that actually seems like a reasonable assumption.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 5:52 PM
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Why don't we, as Americans, run public service announcements pointing out all the places you can go be a serial killer with less chance of being caught than here.

I assume that back in the day various western European countries did something similar to steer their more dangerous residents here.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 5:56 PM
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I'll just say that "history started with the latest bad thing the other guy did" is the default position of any kid whoever got in trouble, ever.


Posted by: Calypso | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 5:56 PM
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Not sure exactly what to make of this report in Al-Monitor but it's certainly been reported in more depth than most everything else you see from the Middle East.

It suggests that the kidnapping-murders were both Hamas and not-Hamas -- committed without authorization by members of the Qawasmeh clan, who were too politically important for Hamas leadership to distance themselves from.

If Al-Monitor is some sort of wackadoodle operation than please to let me know, this just popped up in the feed of one of my more informed FB friends.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 6:55 PM
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More MIL complaining: I come downstairs at 4 pm to get some water, and she asks me, "Did you hear the awful news?" "Supreme Court?" "No, those kidnapped Israelis," sounding truly sorrowful, and all I can think is, a thousand innocent kids die every day; why should these three get a big share of sorrow from me?

But I assume NPR was treating it as a big story, so.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 7:15 PM
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It's really a little obscene. Those Palestinian kids were shot just a month ago, and hardly anyone has even heard that it happened.

Anyway, you know what would be kind of an awesome job? Spokesman for Hamas. The gates of hell!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 7:29 PM
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you know what would be kind of an awesome job? Spokesman for Hamas

Oh, that's not the only one.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 8:02 PM
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It's really a little obscene. Those Palestinian kids were shot just a month ago, and hardly anyone has even heard that it happened.

I had not heard anything about it until this thread.

It is more than a little obscene.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 8:17 PM
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as a proportion of murders, that actually seems like a reasonable assumption.

as a proportion of total violent deaths, certainly---dacoits and serial killers probably contribute a smaller percentage of the total murderous deaths than they would, say, here. But it seems like they should exist at approximately constant or even greater rates (war breeding poverty and insanity motivated violence more), so that when a corpse turns up without any clear political/military context (context, like, say, protesting in front of a battalion of occupying soldiers, or being "claimed" by a terrorist group) at least *some* effort should be devoted to making sure it wasn't killed by an apolitical individual or small group. Otherwise, yeah, 4---aren't you setting up your country/region to be a magnet for psycho cause-free murderers?


Posted by: Ile | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 8:18 PM
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Facebook's built-in translation isn't doing a very good job of helping me figure out what my Israeli acquaintances are saying about this. It looks like some of them are having a pretty vicious argument.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 8:50 PM
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12.last well that hardly ever happens


Posted by: turgid jacobian | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 8:56 PM
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4/11: That sounds like reasoning you'd expect from an antagonist from a Hideo Kojima game. (or a lesser Bond villain.)


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 8:58 PM
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Hey now, I'm sure Ile would make a great Bond villain.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:02 PM
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Ile seems more like a Bond Girl than a Bond Villain. Or there are some where those categories overlap, right? (I don't even know what to say about the rest of this, except that it may be time to hide or unfriend someone I know from knitting.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:11 PM
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I did like the response of the Muslim mayor of Teaneck, NJ. It's politicized, I'm sure, but kind of about what my feelings are.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:13 PM
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I assume that back in the day various western European countries did something similar to steer their more dangerous residents here.

They called it transportation.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:13 PM
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Regarding Al-Monitor and the the clan Qawasameh, I know nothing of the former's credibility but just went through 25 pages of google results for [Qawasameh]. Of course there are other spellings . . . 10,000 is a lot of people for one "family", and the clan seems to have quite a diasporic academics, mostly scientists and engineers, among its #, from nearby in Jordan and the UAE to a lot of Americans. IT also clearly includes a prominent UN employee/human rights observer (Hamed), a inter peace.org activist Maysoun Qawamseh, Dr. Ali Al Qawamseh head of the Hebron Rehabilitation Committee , Talab al Qawamseh a Gaza-based politician who resigned in protest of Hamas, Osama al-Qawasmeh the spokesman for Fatah; Khaled al-Qawamseh Abbas's Fatah Minister of Local governance. I can't figure out what, if any, direct relation the Akram al Qawasmeh of this video has to the named suspect Marwan, or if the house shown in this video has any relation with the house belonging to Marwan that was blown up by Israel today, but before this incident the only mention of an Akram Qawamseh is of someone attending a meeting about promoting education and university attendance in one of Hebron's refugee camps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VygiVN_cPSk#t=247

"The Ethics and Efficacy of the Global War on Terrorism: Fighting Terror with Terror" has a chapter by Scott Atran that seems to hone in on the the high coincidence of suicide bombers with Qawamseh boys, and ties many of them to a single age cohort of cousins that played together on a single soccer team, with a lot of interview quotes from their disconsolate, regret-filled parents. Roger Friedland, Richard Hecht "To Rule Jerusalem" (2000, UC Press) mentions a Fahd Qawamseh mayor of Hebron, deported by Israel in 1980, despite being considered a moderate in Palestinian circles for his willingness to negotiate with Americans and ISraelis, and ultimately murdered for it by Black September Rejectionists in 1984 in Jordan. "Political Parties in Palestine: Leadership and Thought" by Michael Broning, 2013 has a lot to say about Hamaz but only mentions Khaled al Qawamseh the Fatah minister.

In other words, I suspect that narrowing down the problematic faction of Hamas to a "single" clan is not actually going to reduce the problem of collective punishment since that clan itself is huge and thoroughly embedded in West Bank society.


Posted by: Ile | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:32 PM
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I am sadly ignorant of the ways of Bond Villains, having only seen one Bond movie in my life, but I will take Thorn's assignation of me as a Bond girl and run with it.


Posted by: Ile | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:43 PM
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I've seen the original Casino Royale, which doesn't particularly work, and Die Another Day, so I'm pretty ignorant too, but I figured that doesn't need to be an impediment to posting here.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:44 PM
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Basically all you need is a skimpy outfit and a ridiculous name.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:44 PM
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Or maybe that belonged in the Piketty thread?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:44 PM
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That said, I've only seen a couple of Bond movies myself, so I'm hardly an expert either.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:45 PM
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Kawasmi seems to be the spelling of choice among Palestinian FBers, followed by Qawasmi. There are A LOT of Kawasmis in Jerusalem and the West Bank and Jordan. Maysoun, a Qawasmi by marriage, was featured in the NYT during the election. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/world/middleeast/all-female-ticket-a-first-in-palestinian-territories-campaigns-in-hebron.html?pagewanted=all

It's a very very big family and definitely seems to be all over the place politically.


Posted by: Ile | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 9:45 PM
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Anyway, you know what would be kind of an awesome job? Spokesman for Hamas.

In HS we did a peace talk simulation, and I was assigned to be the leader of Hamas. I took my role very seriously and did a lot of research into Hamas on the brand new Internets (it was the 90s! Now I probably have an FBI file for looking at terrorist websites). It was both a lot of fun and actually quite informative. I did reasonably well negotiating at first, but some "allies" betrayed me without warning and shit had to go down. I ended up taking a Westbank settler hostage, getting in a fist fight, bombing a desk, and shooting the teacher. I was arrested and kicked out until I agreed to continue negotiations from my prison cell, but all I could do was impotently protest the creation of "Greater Israel."


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 10:19 PM
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On the issue, (1) was my response too. It's terrible for those kids' families, but hitchhiking is a very dangerous activity. The tragedy of raising teenagers is they do stupid stuff. Most get lucky and grow out of it, but sometimes stupid stuff has consequences.

The IP conflict really lays bare that "we" just think some lives are more important than others, full stop, and people don't feel all that chuffed to hide this. A couple of years ago Derby/shire wrote an op ed somewhere about how the Roma just suck and deserve to be wiped out (he tries to frame it culturally to avoid outright support of genocide). Honestly you could probably write the same thing about Palestinians, without pretending you weren't calling for genocide, and not lose your job at N/RO.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 10:27 PM
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I've seen the original Casino Royale, which doesn't particularly work, and Die Another Day

Very similar to Heebie's reading group approach.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 10:30 PM
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I guess I shouldn't be surprised that someone felt motivated enough to gather a ton of info on Bond girls. And yet, it's a lot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_girls


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 10:32 PM
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Honestly you could probably write the same thing about Palestinians, without pretending you weren't calling for genocide, and not lose your job at N/RO.

I would be surprised if someone hasn't, actually.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 10:39 PM
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Eh, Marty Peretz came close at the New Republic, and that was long after he no longer owned it.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 11:20 PM
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Well, maybe not recently. But I wouldn't be surprised if there was something along the lines of "exterminate the brutes" in National Review back in the 70s or 80s.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-30-14 11:26 PM
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In the name of honesty, it turns out the particular anti-Roma article I was thinking of was written by a different racist right-wing hack, with some of most offensive bits quoted by Derb|yshire in a separate article.

A common thing on N|RO type sites I have seen is the claim that the Palestinians aren't really a people and so don't deserve their own state, because they're really just A-rabs. 1 point for acknowledging ethnicity is a social construct, -1000 points for totally missing the point of what that actually means.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 1:45 AM
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Well, that's a pretty standard right-wing trope in these disputes, in both Israel and the US. Wrong, of course, but hardly unusual.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 1:49 AM
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34
Right. They're pretty much the same people after all.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 2:57 AM
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34: We just need to expand the trope so that it includes Jews. I mean, they're all just swarthy monotheists with weird food rules, right?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 4:01 AM
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26: I insist that Buttercup tell more autobiographical stories!


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 4:40 AM
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I ended up taking a Westbank settler hostage, getting in a fist fight, bombing a desk, and shooting the teacher. I was arrested and kicked out until I agreed to continue negotiations from my prison cell, but all I could do was impotently protest the creation of "Greater Israel."

I like to think that at least some of these things occurred outside the game.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 5:48 AM
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The IP conflict really lays bare that "we" just think some lives are more important than others, full stop

Not everybody is Halford. Some of us have much more nuanced views on the intellectual property conflict.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 5:49 AM
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The implication that dacoits and serial killers don't think of their own personal safety seems faulty. Most serial killers are, unless and until they have some poor, abused woman or child at their mercy, sweaty, reeking little cowards.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 6:16 AM
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And even those hose personal hygiene is immaculate and ho are built like linebackers don't generally carry placards advertising that they're serial killers.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 6:46 AM
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And even those hose personal hygiene is immaculate

It always, always puts the lotion on its skin.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 6:48 AM
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42 reminds me of one of the greatest things ever in Cracked.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 7:07 AM
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They're pretty much the same people after all.

Sure, but you say that to a Palestinian or an Israeli, and they get really adamant that they're not.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 7:07 AM
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Sure, but you say that to a Palestinian or an Israeli, and they get really adamant that they're not.

That's not really my experience with the (lefty, naturally; not saying they're representative of Israeli sentiment in general) Israelis I know. The range of Israeli opinions on this stuff is, I think, much much broader than the permissably "pro-Israel" line in the US.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 7:12 AM
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45.last: The range of opinion in Israel is vastly broader than the acceptable range in the US. I've seen everything from calls for a single state which would eventually inevitably have an Arab majority to calls for outright ethnic cleansing of the West Bank, and that's just through fairly casual reading.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 7:18 AM
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They're pretty much the same people after all.

Haha oops. I meant NRO writers and the American right-wing. e.g. Da|niel P|ipes.

I avoid assigning ethnic labels to Israelis/Palestinians with a 10 foot pole.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 7:27 AM
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"Talk to the pole."


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 7:30 AM
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I meant NRO writers and the American right-wing

Ha, yes, the actual same people.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 7:32 AM
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I can't even really get upset about any of this anymore. NI, IP, Chicago, school shootings, Haiti, wherever. If the revolution ever actually happens, I'll be right there with you, killing whitey, but until then...

Defo going back to the financial industry. Screw trying to make things better. Just need to get money.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 7:48 AM
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From some rabbi:

At Kfar Etzion, we spoke with Col. Bentzi Gruber who commands 20,000 IDF soldiers. He powerfully contrasted Hamas' terrorism with the extraordinary lengths the IDF goes to avoid civilian deaths in a horribly challenging context.

What the fuck ever, fucking fascist.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:13 AM
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I avoid assigning ethnic labels to Israelis/Palestinians with a 10 foot pole.

Thank you. Though I get that the motive is more self-preservation than anything else, but still.

They're pretty much the same people after all

This is just one of those things that we're allowed to say but you aren't, Butt Cupper.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:15 AM
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Don't know what happened to me there, but I managed to misunderstand you in the most annoying way possible. That's what comes of skimming threads. Sorry, Buttercup! I hang my head in shame.


Posted by: Awl | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:18 AM
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Your people do that a lot.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:20 AM
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53

Haha no worries. I'm enjoying the cellphone autocorrect.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:23 AM
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Col. Bentzi Gruber who commands 20,000 IDF soldiers

Wow. That's a division or maybe a corps. All under the command of a colonel.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:26 AM
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That seemed high to me too, but I don't know that much about IDF ranks/command structure.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:28 AM
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53: I also made that misunderstanding and was close to saying something particularly stupid. This is why I should stop reading threads backwards.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:29 AM
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.uoy rof ffo yap lliw tibah taht tniop emos ta erus m'I ,atairlad ,onnud I


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:30 AM
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45, 46: 47 understood my (attempted) joke.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 8:31 AM
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It's also probably wise not to write things on the internet that, taken out of context, sound kind of offensive. Especially not when they're somewhat related to a fairly inflammatory topic.

Semi-related autobiographical anecdote, though not as exciting as the previous one: when addressing her own family members, my grandmother refers to us as "you people." As in, "I don't get why you people have have Easter dinner so early" or "what are you people doing this Saturday afternoon?" She refers to my uncle (her SIL) as "the boy," and has done so for 40+ years now.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:10 AM
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It's also probably wise not to write things on the internet that, taken out of context, sound kind of offensive.

That's what my dick said!

Years ago, that is, in the early days of the internet. Richard was prescient about such things.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:13 AM
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I avoid assigning ethnic labels to Israelis/Palestinians with a 10 foot pole.

That's good; using a pole--of whatever length--for that would just be awkward.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:13 AM
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It's also probably wise not to write things on the internet that, taken out of context, sound kind of offensive.

Depends on what you mean by this. Things that are offensive when literally taken out of any context, but are excusable if you have a deep understanding of how the speaker means well or the referent of the terms isn't what you'd think, yeah, fair enough -- you say something like that and it goes bad, it's on you.

But something like what you said ("they're pretty much the same people") isn't offensive out of context, it could only be offensive if you took it out of the correct context and then put it in a related but wrong context (as a bunch of people did accidentally here). And if people are going to do that, there's no way to write carefully enough to stay safe.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:18 AM
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I am at least 99% accurate in my ethnic assignments, and not awkward at all


Posted by: pole of ethnic assignment | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:19 AM
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Oddly enough I read that as I avoid assigning ethnic labels to Israelis/Palestinians who are propelling a punt or taking part in an assisted high jump competition. Or possibly trying to open a very high window.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:20 AM
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We can still deliberately misunderstand the context of a clear statement to make a stupid joke, right? Some of us have hobbies.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:21 AM
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West Slavic, yup!


Posted by: Pole of ethnic assignment | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:22 AM
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I was picturing using the pole to avoid assigning the ethnic labels. ("You think you can make me describe the ethnicity of that resident of Jerusalem? Not so fast! I have a very long pole!")


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:27 AM
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So, yes to 67.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:28 AM
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Vaulting away, perhaps, LB?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:28 AM
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I assign ethnic labels by using a blowgun.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:29 AM
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I AM THE ORIGINAL POLE OF ETHNIC ASSIGNMENT.


Posted by: OPINIONATED PENIS | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:29 AM
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YOUR MENTION OF "BLOWGUNS" INTERESTS ME, WALT SOMEGUY.


Posted by: OPINIONATED PENIS | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:32 AM
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I assign ethnic labels by using a blowgun.

You should hurl them with an atlatl.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:42 AM
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Someone on my Facebook feed says that Hamas introduced villainy into the canteen, if I am to believe Facebook's translation.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:44 AM
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71: I was imagining swinging it threateningly at people. "Back! Back! I won't label you!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 9:50 AM
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77 was funnier when I was reading the thread backwards and it seemed clear that Sifu was referring to his penis.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 10:04 AM
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Q: Who does a 10-foot pole label?
A: Whoever he wants.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 10:27 AM
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78: wasn't I, though?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 10:28 AM
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78: See, it's dangerous stuff. Good thing we've been derailed by puns.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 10:33 AM
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they're pretty much the same people

You silly little homo sapiens, going around thinking you're all so different from one another. Well, you're not. And we're not going to reveal ourselves to you until you get your shit together and learn to get along.


Posted by: Intergalactic Conference of Opinionated Sentient Beings | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 11:22 AM
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Oops. Can one of the trans-temporal moderators go back and delete that? And this one too. Thx.


Posted by: Intergalactic Conference of Opinionated Sentient Beings | Link to this comment | 07- 1-14 11:23 AM
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And we're not going to reveal ourselves to you until you get your shit together and learn to get along.

O RLY?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07- 2-14 1:29 AM
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