Re: Band geeks are horny pervs? no way!

1

Jonathan Chait picked the wrong week to go on vacation.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 6:15 AM
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Exhibit B of that report is ghastly, and I'm not especially hypersensitive about these things. Like, seriously, no-joke-trigger-warning ghastly.



Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 6:29 AM
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I mean, really, what kind of degenerate, sick individuals build a communal identity around playful nicknames, shared knowledge of obscure trivia, and cock jokes?


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 6:43 AM
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The Aristocrats!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 6:55 AM
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It must be really disappointing to be hoping to join the band and then find out it's only open to people who like doing stuff like this.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:04 AM
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Horny. I get it.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:05 AM
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TBDBITL


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:07 AM
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Tiggles is apparently a sexual nickname, which is new to me. Also they misspelled cunnilingus.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:10 AM
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7: Oh, well. We still have the potato salad guy.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:11 AM
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8: The Original Party Animal


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:16 AM
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"Tulsa"?


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:39 AM
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What's geeky about this? It comes off to me like frat emulation. And I don't think the songs have the right subject matter to be called filking.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:44 AM
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12: Stereotypically a person in a school band is called a "band geek" despite no other evidence of geekery.

This may have been the first field in which the word "geek" came to replace "enthusiast", actually. Now you have basketball geeks, car geeks, economics geeks, etc.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:47 AM
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This may have been the first field in which the word "geek" came to replace "enthusiast", actually.

Magic the Gathering? Chess? Maths (as in the kids who did olympiads)?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:49 AM
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But those are actual geeky pursuits.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:51 AM
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As is playing a musical instrument, traditionally, unless it's a guitar or drums.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:55 AM
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Presumably the French horn players are the kinkiest.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:56 AM
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It must be really disappointing to be hoping to join the band and then find out it's only open to people who like doing stuff like this.

There's also the frankly shocking (for this day and age) level of homophobia, even if it is to some degree (one presumes) of the "doth protest too much" variety.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 8:01 AM
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15. Actual geeky pursuits surely involve biting the heads off live chickens. Anything else is metaphorical.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 8:06 AM
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I'd also dispute "horny pervs", which to me implies some kind of Caligulan environment. Pretty much everything described seems to have been about dominance and humiliation. How about "creepy assholes"?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 8:35 AM
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The trombonists are the growers.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 8:35 AM
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20: It seems to be sort of an Animal House environment. Too bad they aren't just horny pervs. I like horny pervs.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 8:53 AM
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Perv or not perv?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:13 AM
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OK come on what the hell Unfogged. Yes, imagine the horrors of signing up for the greatly educationally important thing that is *the band* and finding out that it is "sexualized" and apparently a bunch of stupid fun for its members. I mean I guess if you had actual complaints from actual female or gay band members that they felt horribly harrassed it would be one thing, but you all are siding with the investigation prompted by a "concerned parent" worried about sexually explicit nicknames in a completely pointless college activity?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:16 AM
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If you read the article in the Columbus Dispatch that is linked at the bottom of the page linked in the OP, it says there were two reports of sexual assault.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:27 AM
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Was any of that mentioned in the OSU report itself? I didn't see it on a fairly quick read, or indeed any mention of student-driven complaints.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:30 AM
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24: It's a concerned parent who was prompted by their unhappy kid.

And really, I think mildly prudish kids shouldn't be shut out of extracurriculars. There's organic nicknames, which are one thing, but this looked like you couldn't participate in the band without stripping, faking sex acts, getting a dirty nickname and so on. None of those are a nightmare if everyone's doing it for fun, but you shouldn't have to fake an orgasm to be allowed to play piccolo while marching in formation.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:31 AM
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27.last And certainly not while sitting in your younger brother's lap. Ick.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:34 AM
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26: It was in mentioned in a footnote. It's clearly not the focus of the report.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:35 AM
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Presumably you could also qualify by having a real one.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:35 AM
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Epic troll bro


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:36 AM
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26: Footnote 7 on page 12. Actually one sexual assault and one sexual harrassment complaint.

Second, an incident of sexual harassment by an Athletic Band member of a fellow
Athletic Band member occurred in March 2013. Significant concerns were raised at the time about the manner in which
Waters responded to the March 2013 incident. Both Legal Affairs and this Office had to intervene with Waters to ensure
Waters reverse a decision that, if not corrected, would have led to a possible violation of Title IX. Specifically, a female
Band member alleged sexual harassment by a male Band member, and Waters initially decided that both individuals
would be excluded from the next Band trip


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:39 AM
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I wonder how much of this bullying was done by the women and how much was directed at the women.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:41 AM
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I mean it's not even clear that any of this was involuntary or that you *couldn't* participate in this totally extracurricular activity if you didn't join in. And, the band itself is obviously co-Ed and run by both men and women. I mean sexual assaults are one thing, but the report itself is pretty clearly responding to sex panic by someone who didn't like the particular culture of a college group which was pretty fun for a bunch of other kids. I don't know that the University has an obligation to protect the sanctity of the college band from prudes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:42 AM
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As I said, I'm not hypersensitive about that kind of thing, and college students will be college students, etc. But the investigation documented (1) the utter pervasiveness of the perviness, sufficient to constitute harassment; (2) the apparent toleration for stuff that went well beyond sexualized humor (e.g. hazing routines that involved intimate groping, song lyrics that celebrate violent rape); and (3) the apparent indifference of the director to complaints brought by band members, such as the young women who felt uncomfortable being obliged to change clothes in front of their male peers.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:44 AM
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We still love ourselves!

What do Ohioans love most? Ohio, The Buckeye State and the Best Damn State in the Land. In a study done by Movoto Real Estate, that looked at social media and how many people had "liked" their own state, the state with the most pride is Ohio. (No, it's not Texas, promise.) According to the study, 55 percent of Ohio residents liked their state on social media. The place with the least state pride goes to good ole' sunny California. Even through winter's cold, Ohioans still love their state.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:46 AM
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Some of the nicknames (listed) are indecent, but most of the nicknames aren't listed; safe to assume that the report only listed the worst ones. Ditto the "tricks" which mostly seem pretty mild by, for example, rugby player standards.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:48 AM
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I don't know that the University has an obligation to protect the sanctity of the college band from prudes.

If there's only one band I think it probably does have such an obligation, since the oversexed kids can blow their oompahs in the band and then go and blow each other elsewhere without interfering with the prudes. On the other hand, if the college can support two bands, one can label itself decadent and depraved and the other upright and god fearing and it's all jake. They can compete against each other.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:49 AM
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39

I mean it's not even clear that any of this was involuntary or that you *couldn't* participate in this totally extracurricular activity if you didn't join in.

I think the report makes it clear that the hazing was quasi-official (e.g., the quiz addressed to 'Rookies' generally), and took place in venues (like the trip bus) where it couldn't have been avoided. Yeah, someone might possibly have been able to refuse to play along and not get thrown off the band, but they couldn't have gotten away from it, and it's still shit that would qualify as a hostile environment if it were in the workplace.

Totally extracurricular or not, a Big Ten marching band is a big-deal official college activity, and it's not unreasonable at all to expect that a student should be allowed to participate without being sexually humiliated.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:50 AM
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35 -- (1) and (2) seem way overblown, particularly taken out of context and put into a report like this ("sufficient to constitute harassment" on the university's analysis just means a generally sexualities atmosphere regardless of the consent of the participants or a sense of things being fun, probably correct as a legal matter but I'm not super interested in the legalities here). (3), if true, is a real problem, and obviously if the coach is covering up assaults or specific bad acts he should be fired.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:52 AM
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You're being kind of weird about this, Halford!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:56 AM
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"Sexualities" in 40 should be "sexualized." To 39 it's precisely the idea that the sexual environment of a college band should more or less match that of a workplace that I'm resisting, but that the OSU report seems to adopt.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:56 AM
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It's the workplace for the director of the band.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:59 AM
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regardless of the consent of the participants or a sense of things being fun

I venture that if the student leaders had been even a little bit more attentive to the consent of the participants and the inclusiveness of the fun, they could have continued their decades-long tradition of perviness for decades to come without interference. But they let it get out of hand and provoked a crackdown. I mean, if you cleaned up even just the most egregious homophobia and rape glorification, that's not going to crimp your fun that much, and it would make the administration's dossier a lot weaker.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:59 AM
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To make it personal, this would have kept me off the band (I probably wouldn't have complained -- one hates to spoil other people's fun, particularly as an insecure college student -- just not joined if I knew what it was going to be like ahead of time, or quit when I encountered the hazing), not necessarily because the level of hazing described would be traumatic, but that it would be enough to render the activity not fun at all. I don't particularly have any relevant moral objections, but I don't like being humiliated, and I really don't like watching other people be humiliated.

And that seems like a shame. Inexplicable as I find it, people care a lot about marching band, and shutting people out unless they're willing to parrot obscenities on command is pointlessly shitty.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:01 AM
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Epic troll bro

And epic bro troll.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:08 AM
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I systematically avoided anything to do with marching or "pep" bands, unless I could be dead certain the only aim would be anarchic disruption of whatever sporting or other event was at hand. So that allowed me to easily avoid all this crap. Marching bands attract martinets like overripe fruit attracts fruit flies, the entire enterprise is completely repellent to me. That said, I agree with LB if this band is the only game on campus they're idiots for letting things run riot like this. Also find it pretty striking how consistently Halford you argue for noncoerciveness in this kind of situation, seems to betray an empathetic blind spot. Large co-ed groups of 18-22 year olds socially dominated by white guys, somehow always equates in your mind to mutual orgiastic licentiousness with everyone rapturously embracing the race to the alcohol soaked bottom, anyone who might have a problem with it must be a prude. This seems at best silly.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:10 AM
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48

45.1 gets it exactly right.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:12 AM
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To 39 it's precisely the idea that the sexual environment of a college band should more or less match that of a workplace that I'm resisting, but that the OSU report seems to adopt.

Curious -- would you feel the same way about the football team? Heavily sexualized hazing should be all right? Or is there a distinction between teams and the band that you're making?

I mean, this kind of thing seems like it'd be fine for some random bullshit club, so long as no one was complaining about having been harassed or made to participate involuntarily. It bothers me when it's a high-status official kind of thing, at which point implicitly excluding the prudish seems messed up.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:12 AM
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To put 44 another way, it didn't take a puritan bluenose to look at that situation and say "This has gotten out of hand". If the band had played it a little bit cooler, the university might have been content to sweep the controversy under the rug in the way that institutions are wont to do with their flagship programs. But you've got to give the administration some plausible deniability, or you leave them no choice but to make a show of cracking down.

The threshold level of egregiousness is going to depend on the size and prominence of the organization. A small frat that keeps to itself can push the envelope a lot more. An organization that a couple hundred fresh faced freshmen from all walks of life aspire to join every year is going to have tighter tolerances.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:13 AM
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...or what LB said.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:15 AM
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Halford, under your scheme, are horribly racist and misogynist frats harmless? Those blackface parties are totally optional, dude.

Also, what LB said in 45.1


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:15 AM
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Agreed with Knecht and LB. This isn't an informal club. If it were a bunch of people who regularly got together to play music together just for fun, and who also had a fratty ambiance then it wouldn't be any of the admin's business unless it crossed over into sexual assault. But here, if you want to be part of a major university supported student organization, you're required to deal with this stuff, and while I'm sure many, and quite possibly most of the people found it fun, including the women, nobody should be required to deal with it. And as LB suggests, there would also be self-selection since people who hate this shit would be likely not leave.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:16 AM
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ANd so pwned.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:16 AM
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Honestly, "I don't want to participate in band because I don't like their pervy hierarchical culture that they seem to enjoy" seems like a perfectly reasonable response for some people but also just not that big of a deal at all. OK, do something else. It's not like there aren't a lot of other choices, even choices involving playing instruments, that you can participate in as a college activity.

I agree with 50 as far as it goes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:20 AM
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Besides everyone knows if what you seek is lots of mutually consensual hot teenage action the regions youth orchestra overseas tour is where it's at.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:21 AM
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55: There is a huge prestige factor involved in being in the marching band. I admit that I didn't really understand why, but you can't really compare it to some campus music club.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:25 AM
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It's not like there aren't a lot of other choices, even choices involving playing instruments, that you can participate in as a college activity.

Have you no pity for the committed but demure sousaphone player? What outlet is there for the sexually conservative glockenspielist?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:26 AM
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57: Moby has lived in Columbus. He knows!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:26 AM
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The sousaphonist can join one of those anarchist brass bands that are popping up everywhere, probably.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:28 AM
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55: get back to me when any of those other options are regularly featured on national TV broadcasts.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:29 AM
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Musically, what's the anarchist equivalent of a 'march'?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:29 AM
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62: Script 'A' in circle.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:30 AM
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I was in marching band in high school (a sexually moderate glockenspielist, at that, although the vibraphone is much more fun to play). I wasn't interested in continuing with it in college--by junior year high school, it was mainly just a social club and an excuse not to do athletics--but some people get really into it (including the intrinsic hierarchical bullshit). There's no real direct substitute for it.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:30 AM
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Musically, what's the anarchist equivalent of a 'march'?

A scramble band.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:33 AM
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Honestly, "I don't want to participate in band because I don't like their pervy hierarchical culture that they seem to enjoy" seems like a perfectly reasonable response for some people but also just not that big of a deal at all. OK, do something else. It's not like there aren't a lot of other choices, even choices involving playing instruments, that you can participate in as a college activity.

What? There are zero other choices for playing french horn as a college activity. Good lord.

As the leader of a college club I became aware sometimes that new people weren't fitting in at the social gatherings, and tried to figure out what to do to integrate people who wouldn't naturally be friends with the existing groups of friends we had. The alternative is to say "Fuck off if you aren't the right sort of personality", which is OK for a fraternity because the only thing that unites them anyway is having parties together.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:34 AM
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67

So does this mean that that character played by Alyson Hannigan in American Pie was an accurate portrait of people who attend band camp? Who knew?


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:35 AM
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There are zero other choices for playing french horn as a college activity.

It's not just that. I've spent nearly all of my adult life at universities that place an absurd level of emphasis on one or more sports team. Ohio State is the only place where the marching band was something the students or the alumni would give a shit about.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:39 AM
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I agree that there's no precise equivalent, but, come on, it's a marching band. "I had to give up on my lifelong dream of 'dotting the I' because I didn't feel comfortable when 'Mushroom' stamped people's faced with a penis stamp" is just not that big of a deal.

I mean look if I was an OSU lawyer I would give the same tired kind of analysis you see in the report and I guess it's their fault for pretending that band is a meaningfully educational activity in the first place. But come on, it's a dumb voluntary extracurricular pointless activity for dumb college kids trying to have fun.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:41 AM
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Presumably the French horn players are the kinkiest.
Nope.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:44 AM
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Also, my cousin played French Horn in a college orchestra.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:44 AM
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69: If you were a real man you would be posting that on the comments to the Columbus Dispatch news story!

Actually, probably should subsitute "troll" for "man" in that sentence.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:47 AM
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73

For example, are there any other marching bands that you can get a state-issued license plate for?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:49 AM
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74

I want to see Halford's ranking of college extracurricular groups by the extent to which they constitute a "big deal."


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:53 AM
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75

Road Trip Club


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:54 AM
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OK, 73 is crazy and does change the analysis somewhat. Still, there is no way that complaining kid and complaining parent aren't whiny prudes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:54 AM
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77

Under Halfordismo, faking an orgasm will be a condition of taking part in any group activity.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:57 AM
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78

Well this thread was certainly successfully trolled. To be successfully trolled myself, I will note that the report makes sure to point out that the band is -- and historically always has been -- heavily male-dominated. So it certainly seems like maybe the people who are not excited about the hypersexualized environment do quit the band.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:02 AM
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79

But come on, it's a dumb voluntary extracurricular pointless activity for dumb college kids trying to have fun.

Is there anything wrong with drawing the line at significant college funding? Maybe not any use of college resources -- I guess the Band of Depravity could use practice rooms or whatever without bothering me. But it seems to me to make a big difference if we're talking something that a bunch of kids are doing of their own accord as opposed to something where OSU is paying salaries and buying instruments and uniforms and so on. Once we're in the latter category, I think a reasonable level of decorum should probably be enforced.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:02 AM
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Musically, what's the anarchist equivalent of a 'march'?

The whistle gets blown by consensus.

Minor Mishap Marching Band at the Renegade Craft Fair


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:02 AM
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Link fail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fORk0CGhAb8


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:03 AM
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78: at this point I think Halford has even managed to troll himself.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:05 AM
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77: the All Blacks are well ahead of you there.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:05 AM
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84

I'm reluctantly OK with something like 79, maybe having a salaried university coach/director is the line, certainly if you get college credit for it you can draw the line there.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:05 AM
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85

Under Halfordismo, the resistance will consist of free love chamber groups, the French hornist, pianist and violinist in a passionate threesome, on the run, faint brahamsian motifs in ragged fragments drifting past on the chill rising from the cold, damp March maquis...


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:06 AM
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Still, there is no way that complaining kid and complaining parent aren't whiny prudes.

Yes, probably also a loser, pansy, weenie and party pooper.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:06 AM
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Band of Depravity

Band of Bro's.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:09 AM
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88

What about this English college sport team product that I saw referenced on a TV show the other day. Clearly unacceptable official university involvement in sexuality?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:11 AM
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Actually, I think the Stanford band is the closest thing going to an anarchist counterpoint to the typical regimented band. (Although they (and hundreds of other marching bands) are probably busy today burning copies of their off-color songbooks.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:15 AM
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90

The sexuality is not the issue, the bullying and hazing is the issue.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:15 AM
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91

Yes, my self-righteous friend, but 90 is clearly at least arguably not a purely "voluntary" activity either and I'd bet almost anything that the Warwick rowing team has some hazing rituals and sexually explicit songs.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:17 AM
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88: Interestingly, that one seems to be a response to insufficient official funding -- they started selling naked pictures because they needed the money to keep the team running. I think they're a commendable group of young people, and the men particularly showed praiseworthy initiative in a manner that is relevant to my interests.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:18 AM
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93

Also, "Jewoobs" is probably antisemitic.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:22 AM
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91: I was kidding a bit in my last comment -- there perfectly well might be something objectionable about it. But you haven't linked to anything showing that there was anything involuntary or harassy going on there ("Do I have any volunteers to pose for naked pictures for the fundraiser" doesn't bother me in at all the same way as "Do this embarrassing thing because I'm in charge and I can make you" does).

If there was hazing going on there, I'd object to that too, sure.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:22 AM
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French hornist, pianist and violinist in a passionate threesome, on the run,

There are few things sadder than a pianist on the run. They try so painfully hard, but they can never get more than a few feet before the pursuit is on their heels.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:25 AM
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It's pronounced "Yevoobs". Common Rhaeto-Romansch name.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:26 AM
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85 And if a group of students want to form the Baroque Orgy Quartet where every practice and concert ends in a period costume fuck off with the players and selected guests, knock yourselves out. Any students who complain should be told to buzz off. Same goes for the naked D&D group. Why Halford thinks this is the same thing is incomprehensible.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:27 AM
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98

What about "you won't feel really comfortable on the rowing team unless you also participate in the naked calendar"?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:27 AM
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Honestly, "I don't want to participate in band because I don't like their pervy hierarchical culture that they seem to enjoy" seems like a perfectly reasonable response for some people but also just not that big of a deal at all. OK, do something else. It's not like there aren't a lot of other choices, even choices involving playing instruments, that you can participate in as a college activity.

Don't most bands involve scholarship money? Not full-ride money like athletics, but maybe a few thousand or so annually.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:27 AM
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from the cold, damp March maquis

WWII era resistance movements supposedly had an insane amount of fucking going on, which makes a lot of sense.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:30 AM
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95: You think I wished for a twelve-inch pianist?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:31 AM
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97 There was a naked D&D group? Why wasn't I told about this?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:31 AM
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Even if no salary is being paid, student organizations potentially get lots of university funds. (My preferred extracurricular had buckets of travel money.) It's reasonable to ask for a fairly high level of inclusivity when the university is funding the activity.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:33 AM
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Halford's just bitter cuz he's only now realized he completely missed out on the rapturously orgiastic college club of his dreams by not taking up viola at age 10.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:35 AM
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103: The budget for the band is a million dollars.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:36 AM
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95: try being a harpist on tour. Regular millstone, the harp.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:38 AM
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And boy it is rough on the fingers to try and strum a millstone day in, day out.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:42 AM
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Let's not be needlessly inflammatory by talking about grain-related things.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:43 AM
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I don't think the mere fact that a group receives college funding should be the cut-off (I mean, obviously it can be). But student-run groups should be able to receive some funding and support and still do what they want. Scholarships for participating in the activity should clearly be a cut-off, and I guess reluctantly that a million dollar per year program with its own state license plates and paid employees can exercise some more control.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:51 AM
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rapturously orgiastic college club of his dreams

Somehow I doubt the band is as orgiastic as all that. Conjecture: the amount of sex happening at any college organization is a logarithmically concave function of the amount of sex talk in the organization.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:51 AM
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110 seems plausible, but who knows. I only vaguely recall people in my college band but I'm pretty sure they were annoying.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:52 AM
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I was in my college scramble band. We had an obscene songbook! I think I have the WordPerfect file on a floppy disk somewhere. But we also had *two* buses, designated The Quiet Bus and The Singing Bus, for the comfort of a largeish fraction of the band didn't like the raunch. It helped of course that this cohort was large-ish, both genders, various levels of seniority, and felt free to speak up. (Presumably some people chose the Singing Bus for social reasons and cringed through the whole experience? Is that even a problem?)

If you asked me at the time I'd have said: the band is avowedly welcoming and inclusive and proud of it. I'm sure we had inclusiveness failures we were too insular to even notice. No hazing though.


Posted by: Scomber mix | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:53 AM
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knecht *still* can't find the orgy ... also, thinks violists play in the band???


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:53 AM
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110: plus: almost all dudes. Conjecture: nerdy organizations that are overwhelmingly male where any women who show up are instantly, enthusiastically sexualized are not hotbeds of raptorous (het) orgying.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:54 AM
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But we also had *two* buses, designated The Quiet Bus and The Singing Bus, for the comfort of a largeish fraction of the band didn't like the raunch.

I guess really this solves much of the problem right there, although WHAT IF YOU ONLY GET TO DOT THE I IF YOU RIDE ON THE SINGING BUS??


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:56 AM
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knecht *still* can't find the orgy

56 reminded me of the aphorism, "Experience is the comb life gives you after you have lost your hair."

also, thinks violists play in the band?

I consciously let that one go by unremarked.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:57 AM
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I don't always guess, but when I do, I guess reluctantly.


Posted by: The Most Persistent Troll in the Thread | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:57 AM
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"Experience is the comb life gives you after you have lost your hair."

So, most useful on your back?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:58 AM
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95: That's awesome.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 11:58 AM
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WHAT IF YOU ONLY GET TO DOT THE I IF YOU RIDE ON THE SINGING BUS??

If I remember scomber mix's alma mater correctly, the I was capitalized, so moot point.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:00 PM
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62 - The Blue Ribbon Glee Club.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:01 PM
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"Experience is the comb life gives you after you have lost your hair."

I'd like to see an interview with the guy below (from the OSU band wikipedia page) about all of this:

In 2013, 51 year-old Kris Tikson made the band, more than 30 years after graduating from OSU.



Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:05 PM
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My God, Kris Tikson was actually a 51 year old woman who was in the OSU band in 2012.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:11 PM
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There is a huge prestige factor involved in being in the marching band
Don't most bands involve scholarship money?

I had no clue that either of these was true, and I was in marching band in high school. It never even occurred to me that I might continue it in college.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:12 PM
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My FIL still plays with the scramble band at University of the Ruling Class from time to time. They have a tradition of off-color songs, too, but much less raunchy and minus the rapey themes, AFAICT. When I regard him and his contemporaries from the band, I get the distinct impression that there wasn't a lot of hanky panky going on in that crowd, whatever their bawdy traditions.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:13 PM
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I mean did 51-year-old-woman Kris Tikson find that some stupid raunchy nicknames prevented her from being named most inspirational band member in 2013? No. And it looks like the band is open to alumni, including grad student alumni, so maybe some of you could join.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:13 PM
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123: Is it wrong of me to wonder what her band nickname was?


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:15 PM
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My undergrad alma mater does not have an "i", except in "university". If everyone showed up, the band was large enough to spell out "university" in Braille. Dots for everyone!


Posted by: Scomber mix | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:15 PM
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Having moved 30 miles east of my location yesterday: my god, what did they do to Hyde Park? This is the nicest hotel room I've stayed in in at least two years, if not more, and the surrounding block looks more gentrified than I would have thought possible.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:18 PM
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||
D.C. Peoples,

I have two improv friends coming to town Sept. 27-30 who need a place to stay. They're performing in an improv festival near 14th & U but would be happy to be anywhere with a couple of couches near a Metro stop.

They're friendly and funny chaps.

Anyone have room . . . in their hearts?

|>


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:26 PM
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the surrounding block looks more gentrified than I would have thought possible.

Racist.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:42 PM
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the band was large enough to spell out "university" in Braille


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:42 PM
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Someone should bookmark this thread for when Halford's daughter turns 17.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:46 PM
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This comment in particular.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:50 PM
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||They're all Mexicans actually||


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 12:58 PM
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133, 134: I'm sure you don't mean it this way, but I do reflexively bristle at comments of the form "You're going to get more sexually conservative when you have a teenage daughter to protect." Presumably the heiress to Halfordismo will be raised in the aggressively crass manner her father expects.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:01 PM
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136: I took it more as, "Presumably Halford will not dismiss his daughter's putative future complaints about sexual harassment/assault as 'prudish whining'."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:02 PM
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Oh, go fuck yourself JRoth. I've been very clear that I'm not actually talking about condoning sexual assault.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:03 PM
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135 is pretty great, except that it's horrible.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:04 PM
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135 is amazing. Holy shit. You can't beat Florida at this game, no matter what.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:10 PM
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First rule of Band Club: Boys will be boys.
Second rule of Band Club: You do not whine about Band Club.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:15 PM
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138: Huh? I was parsing 133 and 134 for LB in 137. I wasn't arguing about you at all. If you want to tell someone to fuck off, it's Sir Kraab.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:16 PM
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No, I think Sir Kraab was making a joke. You were accusing condoning of sexual assault, which is fucking ridiculous. The whole point is that the conduct described in the report (except for one incident shown in a footnote, which incidentally was prosecuted and resulted in the offender being expelled) was not sexual assault, and in fact was not even obviously the subject of complaint of anyone at all besides a single student's parent (the only complainer mentioned in the report).


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:18 PM
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I do reflexively bristle at comments of the form "You're going to get more sexually conservative when you have a teenage daughter to protect."

I don't bristle but I am nonplussed at the ubiquity of this particular notion. I was on a very congenial project team a few years ago when this subject came up, and people who thought independently on many other subjects took it as a law of life. Didn't care to mention that I'd loaned my teenage daughter a Suzie Bright book the previous week.

I'm commenting because it's Friday afternoon, and while mine enemies haven't perished by the sword, they have at least gone home for the weekend.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:19 PM
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Sounds like you at least wounded them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:26 PM
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Kevin Drum has a new tabby cat. It's no Inkblot, but I suppose it'll do.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:32 PM
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The cat is clearly evil.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:35 PM
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His mom's, not his.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:39 PM
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Oh, I thought he'd acquired it through his mother, but on rereading you're probably right.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:44 PM
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Well, I'm glad that's settled.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:49 PM
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I wasn't suggesting that Halford condones sexual assault, but I wasn't entirely joking about the future. It's not that I think Halford will automatically become sexually conservative but that he may have different notions around hostile environments and social exclusion.

If Halford Jr. is raised properly and sees this as all in good fun, Halford will support her. If something goes terribly awry and HJr. is so uncomfortable with the hazing rituals for her school's nationally recognized Crossfit Carnivores that she drops out, he may sing a different tune.

I'd loaned my teenage daughter a Suzie Bright book the previous week.

That's awesome.


Posted by: Sir Kraab | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:49 PM
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||

Turns out my lab-mate had a vial of supertaster strips. Turns out I'm a medium taster, although it tasted pretty darn bitter, so maybe I'm a supertaster with a really high pain tolerance? Anyhow, I'm relieved I'm not a non-taster.

|>


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:54 PM
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Just like the guy in the They Might Be Giants song.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 1:59 PM
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The real test of Halford's parenting is whether he allows his children to study non-band instruments thereby paving, nay subsidizing!, the way to their future participation in orgies, baroque clothing optional.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 2:20 PM
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I knew I shouldn't have given up on the piano.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 2:21 PM
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My mother still gets wistful suitors from her (very competitive) high school marching band. Apparently the trips were all sexed up but severely chaperoned. Also, mom was a hottie. (French horn!)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 2:23 PM
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hot instruments, in no particular order:

French horn
bass clarinet
'cello
viola
double bass
vibraphone
bari sax
koto
hurdy-gurdy


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 2:26 PM
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The piano is not un-hot, and neither is the HUMAN VOICE


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 2:26 PM
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157: Thanks, neb.

158: neb/Tom Waits slash fiction contest starts now.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 2:41 PM
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Re: 157

I dispute hurdy-gurdy.

Koto is hot, though.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 4:38 PM
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Arch lute.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 5:06 PM
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Bless you.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 5:08 PM
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What about the glass armonica? Bone Machine's Conundrum? Simeon's Simeon? The stylophone or the Zeusaphone?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 5:32 PM
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Late to this one, but...

you shouldn't have to fake an orgasm to be allowed to play piccolo while marching in formation

New mouseover text?


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 5:38 PM
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I had several friends in college who were in the marching band, and from their stories the atmosphere sounds pretty similar to the OSU report (though probably not quite as hypersexualized or coercive, and certainly more gender-balanced). All the people who talked to me about it seemed to like it just fine, but of course there's no way to know how representative they were. I hadn't really thought much about any of this until now.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:13 PM
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Anyway, "horny pervy geeks" certainly did describe that band, which colored my initial read of the OSU stuff. On the other hand, they sure as hell didn't have license plates or a million-dollar budget.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:23 PM
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The comments on the Deadspin thread suggest that every band was pretty much more or like this, without seriously bad consequences. But I guess that's going to change for the better since with the inevitable changes following the report these collegians can put distractions aside and focus on what's really important about being in a marching band.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:25 PM
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166 --I don't think I knew anyone in that marching band in my time. I do recall them seeming to have some whole different world focused around their band, and also kind of scaring the hockey players with how into the hockey games they were.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:29 PM
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168: Both of those impressions are entirely accurate IME. The band really was basically their whole world.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:31 PM
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By the way, on a related topic, if you're roughly my age plus minus 5 years or so, let me just say that American Pie: Reunion is just an incredibly depressing movie, especially if you watch it on cable with insomnia. It assumes that you have been so deeply into the American Pie characters over the years that you are excited about seeing them over a decade later becoming mysteriously old, decrepit, and filled with ennui.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:38 PM
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I'm pretty sure no one's that into the American Pie characters. The original movie was a major cultural touchstone for people my age, though. I haven't seen any of the sequels.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 7:42 PM
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I was in marching band in HS, near OSU and in fact modeled on it, inevitably. We played Across The Field every game, and imitated a fair amount of their schtick. I'd ushered OSU games as a boy scout, so I was familiar with all that and knew it when I saw it.

Really band was the only school-related activity I participated in, and it filled what would have been a huge hole in my social adaptation or experience. It's due to having been in the band that I actually had any of the typical HS experiences, or knew much of anybody, of either sex. So it's a subculture that accounts for all of my HS memories.

I belonged, and worked at belonging, but always thought the rituals and traditions were lame and mediocre. Despite that, irreplaceable memories.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 8:05 PM
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170: Isn't Orange is the New Black semi-explicitly (in the narrative rather than sexual sense) an American Pie reunion? Only for two characters, I suppose, and not necessarily the two you'd care about, but surely better than what that movie came up with.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 8:39 PM
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173: Huh. You mean Jason Biggs and Natasha Lyonne? Or is there anyone else from AP running around?


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 8:59 PM
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It really is the most depressing film ever, though. To watch American Pie: Reunion is to realize that they have wasted their lives, you have wasted your life, the past is awful and embarrassing, the future worse, that brief moments of apparent happiness are pathetic, and that they, you, and everyone else is despicable, and that there is no hope except death.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:01 PM
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174: I think just the two of them, yes. But I also think I only watched American Pie 1 way after the fact and don't have any emotional connection to it, so I'm really not the person to ask about any of this. I agree with the last part of Halford's description as it pertains to my life, certainly.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:03 PM
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175: So it's an Ingmar Bergman movie?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:13 PM
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I haven't seen any of the American Pie movies, and most of the discussion I remember hearing about the original one at the time was about the boy-fucks-pie scene that they showed or heavily implied in all the advertisements, so I always kind of had the impression there wasn't much else to it.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:15 PM
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178: That's the scene people (especially people who haven't seen it) often focus on, but there's way more to it. It's a pretty recognizable, though exaggerated and cartoonish, version of the experience of teenage sexuality as experienced by a bunch of horny virgins.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:21 PM
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Not that that's something that most people actually want to (re)experience, but if you're in the midst of it yourself it's nice to see a movie you can identify with. Most teen comedies are much less relatable, IME.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:35 PM
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I liked the part of "Not Another Teen Movie" where Molly Ringwald tells the kids how pointless it all is. Also Randy Quaid was great in that movie.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:39 PM
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175: so basically it's a documentary?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 9:42 PM
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177: Towards the end, life is more like "De Düva".


Posted by: biohazard | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:00 PM
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I really liked American Pie. It seemed generally non-shamey and pro-female-pleasure. And funny.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:10 PM
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184: Yes, that too. Just miles ahead of most other movies in the genre in many respects.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-25-14 10:21 PM
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(Which is not to say that there aren't any aspects of the movie that seem problematic in retrospect, because there certainly are.)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 1:39 AM
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88. What LB said, plus:

1. There's a fine old British tradition of unlikely people posing naked for fundraising calendars;
2. Nobody's showing any naughty bits (unless you think arses still count as risque in the c.21);
3. There's no suggestion that anybody's making them do it as a precondition of being in the team.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 3:17 AM
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I was heavily involved in marching band in HS (drumline captain! band president!), and I thought I'd do the pep/scramble band when I got to college, but it turns out they (the drumline, anyway) were singularly terrible at playing music. So that was a big turn-off. No idea if they were also into hazing, but they definitely weren't into sounding good. (Oh, snap.)

So instead I started writing for the snarky alternative student news magazine, where I met a lot of people I'm still good friends with. And then my senior year, I played in a small-group jazz trio (for school credit! [one credit hour/semester]), which was awesome and our "professor" was a semi-famous jazz dude, who would wander in during our practices and give us compliments and pointers.

In conclusion, every school should have a shitty scramble band, thus channelling reams of aspiring musicians into the worlds of snarky writing and jazz.

Oh, also: I'm pretty sure that marching band students are getting school credit. It's a band class, just like band class in high school, with an incredibly burdensome time commitment. And lots of the players are music majors (either performance or education). I don't know how you'd carry a full load if you weren't getting, say, four credit hours/semester for marching in the band. Thus, to pile on, Halford is wrong.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 5:48 AM
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The American Pie series (at least to judge from the commercials. I've only ever seen the first one) seems kind of unusual in that the characters are aging along with the actors in more or less real time. Is there another movie series that does that?


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 5:50 AM
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175: Does it feature the daughter of a judge in an awkward moment?


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 6:30 AM
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Like Forty-Nine Up, but with more dick jokes?


Posted by: conflated | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 6:30 AM
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191: New mouseover text?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 8:20 AM
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||

I don't care how clear you think it is, the truth about 9/11 is not appropriate date conversation.

|>


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:00 AM
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193: I dunno, it's the kind of thing that could potentially set of the "RUN!" alarm, which is useful to have out in the open on the first date as opposed to the seventh.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:04 AM
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What do you mean "could" "potentially"?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:06 AM
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Well, he could just mean she was just talking about the actual 9/11 conspiracy, not the one involving Mossad, Saddam, and the lizard people from outer space.


Posted by: teraz kurwa my | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:13 AM
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193: Now you know for next time.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:14 AM
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I managed to avoid learning who the putative conspirators were, but my knowledge of how skyscrapers collapse was tested.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:15 AM
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I'd have thought the identity of the conspirators would be issue number one. Perhaps that's second date material. You should liveblog next time and we'll feed you questions and suggestions.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:20 AM
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I'm pretty sure it's your basic "inside job" stuff.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:25 AM
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I really wish I could find the picture someone posted on (IIRC) Crooked Timber years ago of someone in a furry purple Shmoo costume holding a sign that said "9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB".


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:34 AM
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Also, seems like 9/11 trutherism is precisely the sort of thing it'd be good to find out on a date. You want to flush out the crazy as early as possible.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:35 AM
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Yeah I mean fair enough.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 9:58 AM
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It's like the "what music do you listen to" conversation. You want to sniff out Dead Raven Choir fans early.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 10:01 AM
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I lost one of my best and oldest friends due to 9/11 trutherism. It came as a complete shock to me. Much less so than when he came out to me a couple of years after high school. I'd known him since first grade in elementary school and he was the best man when I married #1.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 10:15 AM
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Ohio State to form task force after band scandal


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 10:49 AM
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You want to sniff out Dead Raven Choir fans early.

I would be ecstatic to be on a date with a Dead Raven Choir fan.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 07-26-14 1:15 PM
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