Re: Just Words

1

Is this some kind of joke? Thomas Friedman, hands down.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 8:12 PM
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2

Is Josh Marshall tweeting btock-style?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 8:17 PM
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3

That is surprising.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 8:21 PM
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4

Twitter really is the nadir of human discourse.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 8:32 PM
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5

He sure tweets a lot.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 8:45 PM
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Political journalists seem to be really into Twitter, I guess because politicians are too.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 8:51 PM
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7

4 gets utterly, tragically wrong.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 8:52 PM
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8

All major pundits will one day rumble into the street
Incensed by comments
Intent on generating tweets

Just words, just words
You said they wouldn't hurt
Just words, just words


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:05 PM
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9

This thread is the nadir of human discourse. An opportunity to lose yourself in a bloody reverie about your most despised pundit, and you'd rather talk about Twitter yay or nay. #smh


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:06 PM
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10

Doesn't comment one sort of settle the issue, though? Who else is a candidate? Richard "I guess slavery was bad" Whateverhislastnameis?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:15 PM
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I'm not even sure that Richard is his first name. Oh look it is. Richard Cohen, walking shande far di goyim.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:16 PM
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9 -- it's your fucking fault for assuming the pundit would win. We (using the royal we here) want to fantasize about drinking the blood of Krauthammer and ... hmm Robert Samuelson and, fuck it, Josh Marshall, in our helms, mixed with mead, while pieces of their throats are still stuck to our battle-axes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:19 PM
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It sounds like ogged wanted more details about the fight itself, for some reason.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:20 PM
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See, he just needed to wait for Halford to show up.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:20 PM
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15

Tough call. Jonah Goldberg is a definite contender though. I can totally imagine him getting all puffy when he's drunk in a "don't you know who I am" kind of way and then quickly breaking down into tears as the beating begins.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:27 PM
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15 -- agree. Here's my outside-the-box plan for Goldberg: repeated, hard slaps to the face from an extremely effeminate gay man. At first he'd be all pompous buffoon-like fake macho dismissive laughing. Then the slaps get harder and the tears and the blubbering.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:40 PM
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9: I don't know, I don't spend as much time hating columnists as most people here. Like Maureen Dowd is horrible so I stopped reading her a very long time ago and don't have active murderous feelings about her. I guess it would be fun to get in a drunken brawl with Manuela Hoelterhoff? Because I'm a feminist? Actually this reminds me that I do read music writers I hate. So, final answer: Norman Lebrecht if I could cut off enough heads quickly enough to slow him down before he got any venomous fangs into me. He's not the worst of the worst, humanity-wise, but he's consistently like orange juice and toothpaste in writing. Better?


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:43 PM
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18

It's a shame that it seems so unchivalrous to fantasy fight the horrible women pundits. For example, having McMegan face the battle axe seems wrong; she should just be forced to be a desperately poor homeless single mother, shunned by everyone who ever knew her, for the rest of her life.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:51 PM
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19

Hmm, I might go with Steven Hyden from Grantland. Hate him. I would also enjoy fighting Bill Plaschke of the L.A. Times.


Posted by: torque | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:52 PM
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20

Oh my fucking God Plaschke. No axe is dull and disease-infected enough.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 9:53 PM
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21

I would've voted Friedman if he weren't already a punchline at this point. Watching Marshall squander his credibility this way, though, makes me want to test out the Hogan Leg-Drop and/or the People's Elbow on him. What a cunt.


Posted by: Lord Castock | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 10:19 PM
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22

Wait the original tweet was from a month ago? That's like 10 years ago in twitter time.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 10:32 PM
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23

Halford in the other thread has reminded me that I would like to drown Grover Norquist in a bathtub.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 10:33 PM
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22: Looks like more than 2 months, actually. May 23.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 10:35 PM
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Huh, right. I didn't notice the date until I'd scrolled down to July. Political journalism twitter is a slower moving cesspool of newspaper-style comments than I would have guessed.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 10:42 PM
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26

Now I know what you're thinking: it's awfully hard to drown a grown man in a tub, and he'd be a struggler. But I would first fill the tub with cold water, and, being unable to regulate his core temperature, he'd soon grow sluggish and unresisting.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 10:45 PM
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27

That actually makes it even weirder, since it would have been well before the latest Israel/Palestine blow-up.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 10:46 PM
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28

Everyone knows my answer is David Brooks, and has been for a decade. I promised myself long ago I would punch him in the face if I saw him, and then I saw him, and remembered that I would probably have to go to jail for a while and I had exams. *shame*


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 11:39 PM
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29

Not facing that kind of moral dilemma is one advantage of not living in New York.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 11:42 PM
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30

Can someone remind me who was the pundit whose name repeatedly appeared in an article by someone else on women's reproductive health, the author sheepishly explained, because while emailing drafts back and forth, his paper's net nanny withheld it because of too-frequent use of the word "vagina," so in draft form, he used the name of....


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 11:49 PM
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31

David Brooks is a coastal elite pretending to be heartland guy pretending to be a coastal elite.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 11:49 PM
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32

Mark Steyn!


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 11:53 PM
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33

Wait, Brooks was born in Canada? Did this come up in the earlier thread? Was he a childhood friend of Rob Ford?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 11:56 PM
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34

Sadly, Googling "mark steyn vagina" brings up a loooooot of hits, so I'm still tracking it down, but it brought me joy at the time. It was about a performance of "The Vagina Monologues." OK, it was originally this bit from AB at the Guardian, but I can't find the version where it initially said "The Mark Steyn Monologues."


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 5-14 11:59 PM
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The Vagina Monologues, which we intended to refer to in eBay, Manga and murder, page 2, G2, April 19, became, bizarrely, The [Mark Steyn] Monologues.

Bizarrely!


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:00 AM
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Sadly, Googling "mark steyn vagina" brings up a loooooot of hits

Really? What are they?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:04 AM
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37

Oh, shit like this. Mark Steyn has a lot of thoughts about "vascularized vaginas."


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:09 AM
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38

Ugh.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:14 AM
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39

Can I choose this guy? Because his cousin, a dear old friend, put this on Facebook as a "sane and concise" take on the fighting, and I gingerly expressed my reservations about his #2, leaving everything else alone, and now he's FB messaging to insist that

There is no moral equivalence between the election of Netanyahu and the election of Hamas, because Hamas's raison d'etre is not to bring peace, security, and prosperity to its people - it's to annihilate the State of Israel and the Jewish people along with it. People who celebrate death are not the same as people who celebrate life.

Of course, he's a bad pick, because he's ex-IDF and would probably kick my ass (or call in an airstrike on it before I got close). Back to hundredpushups.com.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:17 AM
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40

39: Yeah, probably best to stay away from Israelis in this context. American pundits who say insane things about Israel aren't that hard to find, after all, and they'd generally be much easier to take in a fight.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:23 AM
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41

Is 33 mixing D. Brooks with D. Frum? The latter is Canadian.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:24 AM
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42

It appears Brooks was born in Toronto, although he grew up in New York.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:25 AM
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43

And later Philadelphia.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:25 AM
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44

I sometimes actually look things up before posting comments.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:26 AM
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45

Cheater.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:27 AM
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46

At least he didn't provide a citation, presumably following the Perlstein model of "my citations are on some other website somewhere."


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:35 AM
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47

I was paraphrasing Wikipedia editor ###.##.###.#, a renowned expert on David Brooks' birthplace.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:40 AM
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48

I can't really think of any pundits, tbh. But there are several politicians that I'd punch without a second's hesitation.

Cameron, and Osborne, for a start. Certainly Cameron, who provokes a visceral almost physical reaction in me.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:00 AM
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49

48: well, it's not really a case of which you would punch so much as which you would punch first. Cameron before Osborne? Cameron before Gove? Gove before Lilley?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:09 AM
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50

I guess Gove is sidelined. So, Cameron first. Osborne I'd probably want to kick in the balls, tbh.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:15 AM
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51

I get to punch William Saletan.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:22 AM
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52

I could fight 50 pundits.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:22 AM
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53

A nice upward swinging kick to the nads is sometimes jokily referred to as an 'italian whip-kick [fouette italienne]' in Frenchy boxing. I've no idea if that's because Italians are reputed to be dirty fighters* or because of the ballet movement of the same name, which has the same upward swing:**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtrgKD6bg8g

So, Osborne, with that.

** standard savate fouette:

What Salem Assli is doing in slow mo' between 14 and 16 secs and again at 1:09:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yj3x521VaM

* juding/ref'ing international events, they are prone to go down claiming they've been victim of a nut strike, trying to get penalties awarded against their opponent.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:27 AM
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Speaking of pundits, Ezra Klein sat in for Chris Hayes last night, and it was interesting to see how less comfortable he was in the role of host as opposed to guest. Not a criticism, similar but different roles are very different, it was just quote apparent that he was pushing his comfort zone.

But, he comes off as very punchable; although I am probably still overly influenced by the histrionic squeakathons he and Chris Hayes engaged in last October/November when all of liberal proceduralism was in danger due to healthcare.gov. Joan Walsh proved she could take them both in a fight.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:35 AM
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55

Who can we poison with polonium?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:38 AM
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56

Pigeons in the park.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:43 AM
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57

Podhoretz.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:43 AM
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58

Let's mix it up with an old Unfogged tradition and ask which pundits would fight most viciously against a horde of 7 year old children and what tactics do you think they would employ?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:05 AM
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59

George Will would bore them to death.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:09 AM
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60

Friedman would totally kick a kid in the face. Brooks and Douthat would be in a race to see which one could send more kids to the hospital from spankings. Brooks would wind up in the hospital himself with carpal tunnel from delivering too many vigorous spankings.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:16 AM
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49 reminds me of a comic when I was a kid in which the hero infilitrated the Nazi A-bomb project (in an alternate timeline where it actually made progress). With his last bullet, he had the choice of Professor von Nogoodnik (or whatever) the evil genius/mad scientist, or Hitler himself. He decided on the scientist on the grounds that another fanatic could step into Hitler's shoes, but the Germans would never be able to replace their nuclear genius (having gassed or exiled all the others for being Jewish).

Similarly, if you were to render Cameron hideously disfigured and unable to appear in public without mass vomiting, they could promote Osborne to PM, or Eric Pickles, or some other reptile. But without Osborne...


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:26 AM
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49. And don't forget Francis Maude. ho would actually be third on my list behind Osborn and Drunken Spliff.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:29 AM
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63

I could fight 50 pundits.

50 duck sized pundits?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:34 AM
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64

With Tories it would probably be more like "would you rather fight one Tory cabinet minister or his three horse-faced daughters" than anything like a horse-sized duck.

I am going to hell, aren't I?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:39 AM
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65

Someone tried the '50 kids' thing, but it was football:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Jjeadvbzc

[There's a similar video with Real Madrid versus 100 or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfzPBgR-E1E

]


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:56 AM
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Pundits have the muscle conditioning of veal. You give Jonah Goldberg a loaded .45, you're still kicking his ass. The question is how many pundits could you fight and still win.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:05 AM
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I've long since identified Jonah Goldberg as the exception to my meek, Christ-like love for all creatures great and small,* even twisted perversions of the human like John Derbyshire and the punker-than-thee ressentiment-wankers at Gawker Media.

* That scans as a lot more anti-semitic than I intended.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:14 AM
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68

How anti-semitic did you intend it to scan?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:15 AM
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"would you rather fight one Tory cabinet minister or his three horse-faced daughters"

The minister. I've read too much Wodehouse to fall for that one.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:16 AM
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70

How anti-semitic did you intend it to scan?

Not very?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:17 AM
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71

I'd like to suggest pushing someone off a slippery slope into a canyon. Krauthammer, maybe?


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:47 AM
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72

You really want to relitigate this?

Also, John Yoo writes a column for the Philadelphia Inquirer. Just sayin'.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:00 AM
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73

40 is evidence that at least that part of the early Zionists' dreams has been fullfilled.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:04 AM
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74

I'm thinking set this up as a single elimination tournament. Only the strongest is left alive at the end. (My money is on Coates.)

Liberal Intellectual Division
(1) Ta-Nehisi Coates
vs.
(4) Leon Wieseltier


(2) Peter Beinart
vs.
(3) Rick Hertzberg

Liberal Wonk Division
(1) Josh Marshall
vs.
(4) Ezra Klein


(2) Matthew Yglesias
vs.
(3) Jonathan Chait

Highbrow Conservative Division
(1) Reihan Salam
vs.
(4) David Brooks


(2) Ramesh Ponnuru
vs.
(3) Ross Douthat

Conservative Hack Division
(1) Michelle Malkin
vs.
(4) Dinesh D'Souza


(2) Andrew McCarthy
vs.
(3) Jonah Goldberg


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:33 AM
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75

It would be important to tape any pundit beatdown, since otherwise no matter how humiliated they were it would just make them more self-righteous.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:34 AM
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76

(My money is on Coates.)

Because he's the only athlete while the rest are scrappy?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:39 AM
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77

Because he's the only athlete while the rest are scrappy?

Heh.

No, because I figure he has the most practical experience.

I think Malkin takes the conservative division because she trains harder and has fewer scuples. In the liberal semifinal, Coates makes short work of surprise Division champion Chait.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:48 AM
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78

No, because I figure he has the most practical experience.

He has written a fair bit about overcoming a propensity to violent confrontation.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 7:01 AM
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79

And know Knecht wants to pull him back in. Reprehensible!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 7:12 AM
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80

79: yeah, and fighting an old jewish guy! You're going to get him arrested!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 7:21 AM
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81

74 et seq.: I feel bad for the poor man's TNC at Slate, Jamelle Bouie. I'm sure he'd love a shot at Wieseltier and he'd presumably be cheaper.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 7:52 AM
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82

Wasn't Klein a high-school (college?) wrestler? Might get him through a few rounds.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 7:55 AM
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83

And Coates writes mostly about having been not particularly successfully violent in a violent culture, IIRC his memoir correctly. Internalization of violent norms, but I don't think much personally achieved violence. Of that group, he's a biggish, fittish, youngish guy, but I wouldn't count on his personal history to make him an unstoppable pundit-crushing machine.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 7:58 AM
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84

an unstoppable pundit-crushing machine

That inevitably turns upon itself in a riot of self-destructive logic when Captain Kirk points out that it is itself a pundit.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 8:03 AM
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85

74 Watch out for Yglesias, he's a hair puller.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 8:10 AM
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86

For a fair number of the combatants, that's not a particularly useful tactic.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 8:15 AM
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87

86: Another reason we need more women in the media.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 8:24 AM
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88

No one wants to pummel me? Andrew McCarthy chosen over me as a conservative hack? I guess I am truly finished.

What's left for me? Accept Larry Flynt's offer to pose nude for Hustler?


Posted by: Opinionated Ann Coulter | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 8:27 AM
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89

A little off-topic, but I've been trying to remember when the last time was that I gave or received a serious blow: punch, kick or slap. I can't do it, it's been so long, at least 30 years. I'm not talking about shoving matches that don't escalate beyond epithets, or the--scary, heart-pounding--times I've faced somebody down without contact. That sort of thing occurs still every few years.

But my memory of actual violence, while vivid is based on events from long ago.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:06 AM
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90

A little off-topic, but I've been trying to remember when the last time was that I gave or received a serious blow

After the recent thread, I was expecting a different word to follow that.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:10 AM
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89: You really get into near-physical confrontations every few years? I can count the number of such things in my life on one hand. I'm more confrontation averse than most men, so maybe that's it.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:11 AM
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92

A drunk British guy tried to start a fight with me a few months back. I brushed him off and tried to de-escalate, and he went for the classic Euro head butt but he was so drunk that he just toppled over face first onto the ground. That's the most recent example I can think of. But certainly every few years sounds about right. No actual fight since ... college I think? Which is a long time now.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:21 AM
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93

Actually if we're counting stare downs it'd have to be at least once every six months on average.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:23 AM
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94

I think we had the same conversation when we talked about Coates a few years ago, but I'd be really surprised to hear anyone I knew in RL tell me about a fight or near-fight: I've never seen one in the US as an adult (and not really as a kid).


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:28 AM
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95

Seriously? I haven't had experienced or dealt any physical violence since high school sports. Outside that context, not since jr high.

In conclusion, halford, grow the hell up.


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:30 AM
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96

What the fuck? I haven't been in any kind of confrontation like that, stare-down or otherwise, since high school.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:30 AM
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97

I've never seen one in the US as an adult (and not really as a kid).

Never really saw a fight as a kid? Did you look away?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:31 AM
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98

I think I posted something after the cab driver jumped out of his car and semi-charged at me the other day, right? He was clearly trying to pretend to want to fight, although it wasn't very believable.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:31 AM
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99

I'm trying to decide whether it will be more fun to blame crossfit, paleo, lawyers, or Halford personally. No, wait. Sorry the divorce has been so contentious, Halford.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:32 AM
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100

Yeah, for me no physical confrontation or anything approaching it since eighth grade.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:32 AM
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101

Does it count as a fight if you get hit in the head a few times and don't think to fight back?

That's my glorious fighting career as an adult.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:33 AM
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102

Does it count as a fight if you get hit in the head a few times and don't think to fight back?

...by your three-year-old?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:34 AM
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103

95 -- seriously? (Also, fuck you). IRL I am actually not at all confrontational, but it's pretty hard to go to bars or sporting events or just deal with crazy men in a city without getting into an occasional stare down.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:34 AM
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104

Does running down the sidewalk while yelling at the driver of a car that almost hit you count?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:35 AM
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105

97: Well, mostly I was reading, so I could have missed a lot, but my elementary school was quite calm.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:36 AM
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106

In my experience that happens a lot more in California than anywhere else I've lived. No idea why. Lead, presumably.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:36 AM
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107

104: did the driver get out of the car?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:37 AM
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108

go to bars or sporting events

I have done these things! Still no confrontations. You were an asshole even before you started commenting here, right? I'd hate to think that your online persona is responsible for getting your ass beat.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:37 AM
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109

After my confrontation with the smirky asshole who feared for my kids' lives at 8:30 am, another guy approached my car window and tapped in nearly an identical scene, as I was leaving Amarillo yesterday morning. I had a huge adrenaline rush and rolled down my window, and he asked "How do you get your knowledge?" and handed me a Jehovas Witness tract, and was very sweet about the whole proselytizing thing. His giant gelled hair and outfit was so phenomenally old school 80s televangelist, and his manner so meek that I couldn't really fault him.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:38 AM
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110

For example, the confrontation with drunk British guy went something like this -- crowded situation, we bump into each other, I spill some drink on his shoes, I say "sorry about that," he says "what the fuck," I say something like "hey, I said I was sorry" he goes for the head butt and topples over.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:38 AM
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Actually given 108, now I'm wondering if it isn't all because of Halford.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:39 AM
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A drunk British guy tried to start a fight with me a few months back. I brushed him off and tried to de-escalate, and he went for the classic Euro head butt but he was so drunk that he just toppled over face first onto the ground.

I hope he didn't injure his war owl.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:39 AM
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People went to middle and high schools that didn't have tons of fights?!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:39 AM
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The wings actually provide valuable aerobraking in a fall.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:40 AM
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I think I feel my street cred enhancing.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:40 AM
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102: I wish. Account of both incidents are in the archives.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:41 AM
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"How do you get your knowledge?"

"Wikipedia, mostly."


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:42 AM
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Another example I can think of (this one is a few hear ago) is some noisy teen talking loudly on his cell in a movie theater, I ask him politely to be quiet, and then there's a stare down for a bit before he shuts up.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:44 AM
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Having been unfair, let me be fair: one reason I typically avoid bars and sporting events is that there are a lot of crazy people in those places.

A friend has a very funny story of a movie theater stare down that's a bit too long to recount, except to say that his wife, also a friend, is the epitome of the fiery redhead, and as he tried to de-escalate, she was standing beside him escalating. Wife of other dude says "You don't want to make him made." Our friend says "Are you abused?" And so on.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:51 AM
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119 -- well, if you were a man of serenity and maturity like Annelid Gustator, you could go to those places without ever having to worry about a confrontation.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:55 AM
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Once every six months still seems high, even to Fair Ogged, so you're still an asshole, but maybe not a crazy outlier.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:59 AM
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I think I feel my street cred enhancing.

You're in Texas. I though that down there you had to get in knife fights in order to have street cred, and that real Texans consider regular fist fights effete.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:08 AM
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Actual real fights fairly regularly through my teens, although they were fairly often things with multiple people -- getting jumped by football casuals, or whatever -- rather than one-on-one things. I've still got a couple of scars from being bottled, and from having my teeth kicked completely through my lip.

However, almost nothing beyond a bit of empty posturing since I was about 21. So, twenty years, basically. Although there have been a few scary or semi-scary things that could have turned very nasty since, but got resolved without actual blows. Although the sincere threat of blows was involved.

I do spar [boxing or kickboxing] most weeks, though. So it has been only three days since someone last punched me in the face.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:11 AM
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107: No, but he stopped to yell also.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:13 AM
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There were a few kids at my middle school who started fights, but they got expelled. Nothing at high school, not at the actual school anyway. Of course I've never been in a fight. A guy challenged me once, I think because I was tall.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:14 AM
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re: 113

Quite a few in my school. Most violent country in the first world, and all that. But I'd expect the majority of boys went through high school without getting in fights. They tended to be instances of bullying -- where the ordinary kid wouldn't a target -- or, much more often, various hard-cases fighting each other. If you were a nice ordinary kid, who didn't stand out either through being particularly vulnerable, or particularly aggressive, you probably wouldn't have any fights at a level above a bit of shoving and shouting.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:15 AM
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I feel like driver-cyclist staredowns must happen constantly. Except, of course, to man of peace Annelid Gustator.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:17 AM
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I'm sure I've recounted before that boxing was still offered for PE credit at OSU in the seventies, and I took it. Professor was an old urban Italian guy, full professor nearing retirement, who gave us to understand that he maintained the course against opposition.

After a session I'd carry a ringing sound in my ears around to other classes for hours.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:18 AM
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I have never had a physical fight and sometimes wish I had, just so it wouldn't be this totally unknown thing. So like the time a year or two ago when someone just about ran over me in an intersection and I thwapped his truck with my umbrella and he got out and started running toward me yelling "you little shitbag!" I would have had a clearer idea of what to do rather than stand there thinking "someone is probably about to hit me." (I mean the best thing would have been to rip the top off my takeout container of VERY HOT fish ball chow fun soup and boil his face, except for the felony charges, which I assume are also the reason he did not in fact hit me.)

In elementary school we would have elaborate conversations about who we could and could not beat up. I think even then I knew I was completely full of shit for even having the conversation. I was never sure if the other kids actually did get in fights or just talk about it.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:20 AM
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re: 128

Luckily most of my sparring tends to be controlled contact, so while a solid punch to the head can sting a bit, it's rarely at true head-ringing levels. I had a similar experience to you at a university boxing club, though, where everyone just wanted to bash away, full power.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:20 AM
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Halford is about to blow.

I know I've told the story of the kid in middle school who challenged me to a fight and the next thing I knew I was in the principal's office with the kid saying his lawyer had advised him not to fight. True story. I need to move.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:22 AM
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127: sure, except drivers don't get out of their cars, because why would you voluntarily give up your deadly weapon?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:24 AM
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Natargacm: "I barely get into fights, except of course for your normal shoving and shouting matches."
Halford: "I get into fights all the time, by which I mean threatening eye contact."


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:25 AM
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129.1: it took me a long time to realize that the truth of dudes acting like they want to fight is that very, very, vanishingly few dudes in fact want to fight. They just want to act like they want to.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:25 AM
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"How do you get your knowledge?"

An eclectic web magazine, I should have thought, would be the answer.

Actually if we're counting stare downs it'd have to be at least once every six months on average.

They don't count if you make out at the end. Otherwise yeah.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:26 AM
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I remember a conversation in the Principal's office after a fight with one of our high school bullies which I'd [completely unexpectedly, and against form and character]* won in a fairly one-side fashion.

(Deputy) Principal [to sobbing teenage boy, with burst nose]: So, what seems to be the issue here?
Boy: He burst my nose.
(Deputy): and he attacked you did he?
Boy: No.
(Deputy): and he hit you first?
Boy: [Sob] No.
(Deputy): Looks like you made a mistake then, didn't you?

* I'd guess if you'd re-run that fight several more times, I'd have lost each one.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:26 AM
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134 is definitely true. And I specifically said that I did NOT get into fights. The disbelief (for men of peace Annelid Gustator and Ogged) was that staredowns that do not result in fights occur sometimes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:28 AM
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A staredown every six months is still suspicious, Sunday School.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:34 AM
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Looks like you made a mistake then, didn't you?

Oh god, the reasonableness of it all. Here it was all solemn and serious and fighting was that than which no worse could be conceived. If anyone had actually drawn blood? We couldn't even contemplate such a thing.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:35 AM
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I gave a kid a bloody nose once, but it was an accident. Sort of.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:37 AM
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re: 139

I just got asked to leave the office, and not to take matters into my own hands again, or some sort of platitude. This was mid-80s, so I can't say that it'd necessarily be handled the same way now, although I suspect it probably wouldn't be wildly different. The kid in question was certainly 'known' to the deputy head. Maybe things would have been different if he'd been a different kind of kid. That said, I head-butted someone* in history class once, and no action was taken, other than a telling-off by the class teacher. I expect that wouldn't pass without further disciplinary action these days.

* provoked, honest!


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:39 AM
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140: Sifu jounced the limb.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:40 AM
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140: Me too! Also sort of an accident.

Well, I punched him in the nose on purpose, but I guess I didn't know my own strength.

This was in 2nd grade.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:40 AM
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provoked

"Your mum's a Scot!"
[headbutt] "Yes, yes, I suppose she is."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:41 AM
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142: hah!

143: yeah, something like that.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:42 AM
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It's Columbus time:

I'd been attacked and beaten several times by older boys, almost randomly, glasses broken etc. when I lived in the true north strong and free, but nothing formalized or ritualized.

In working class Columbus, Hilltonia MS, then Junior High on W. Mound St. fights were matters of squaring-off, and nearby girls would rush over to shout encouragement, or disappointment if nothing seemed to be happening. I was winning one when an older kid intervened and punched me hard on the jaw. But one time a locker banging shoving match escalated into stomach punches. I won that one, and years later an OSU basketball player told my brother he remembered it. Lucky not to have been observed by officials.

Worst I ever saw was at Jones JHS in tonier Upper Arlington. Kid slammed repeatedly against chain link, bleading profusely. I was in a really formalized one there, challenge, meet up after school, seconds, the whole bit. Lost badly, face swollen, my friend had to clean me up.

My experience that it might be more vicious up the income scale, contra Ogged, was confirmed by my son's experience at MS in Lincoln Park. He saw hair-raising things.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:42 AM
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re: 144

Heh. I had long hair, and the kid* behind me deliberately put a load of chewing gum in my hair [without me initially noticing] and then when I did notice, rather than keeping quiet about it, he bragged loudly to the whole class that he'd done it, and seemed to think that mocking me would have the desired effect of making him look big and me look small. He was somewhat surprised when I dragged him over the desk and 'butted him in the face. No real harm done, though, it wasn't hard enough to cause real damage.

His ego took a smack, though.

* as part of an on-going social-class related attempt at psychological bullying by him and another rich mate of his.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:44 AM
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No fights since junior high; nothing really that could have led to one. But then I've lived a cosseted and cloistered existence and only six of those years were in Beirut.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:49 AM
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Sifu jounced the limb.

Kids don't still have to read that, do they?


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:50 AM
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Never been in a real fight, fantasize about it fairly often. The problem is that the only real-world scenarios in which I'd start a fight involve someone doing something bad to someone I love, and imagining the specifics of what that'd have to be puts a damper on the fantasy.


Posted by: torque | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:54 AM
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Halford, I think that between this and the defense of drunken misbehavior that takes place on college campuses, you possibly are personally responsible for normalizing like 2/3 of all bad behavior everywhere.

[gives you the fisheye]


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:57 AM
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[what are you gonna do about it, huh?]


Posted by: Annelid Gustator | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 10:58 AM
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No fights for me, no fights when I was in school. I am not above using staring and significant eyebrow movement to force teens I don't know to pick up their litter or otherwise behave better, but that's not really a staredown. Lee yells and gesticulates at other drivers with the window open, which I'm still convinced will eventually get her killed or something.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:01 AM
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149: Where do you think all this interest in slash fic comes from if not spurred by "great" literature?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:06 AM
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My working theory is that the blogging law prof who was shot in Florida was the victim of road rage. The fact that they're looking for a Prius argues against this, I know.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:06 AM
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The fact that they're looking for a Prius argues against this, I know.

What? No way.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:13 AM
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No way they're looking for a Prius, or Prius drivers are just as murderous as anyone else?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:16 AM
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The latter.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:20 AM
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I mean, if we exclude outliers like southern kids rolling coal in F-350s or Halford or whatever.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:20 AM
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I certainly had road rage when I rented a Prius, although it was exclusively directed at the Prius.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:21 AM
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Well, I'd imagine them to be "you're not following the rules" death-stare types, rather than get out and shoot you in the head types, but in the South, this might be a distinction that doesn't hold up.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:22 AM
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You know what's a really decent car, though? The electric Honda Fit. Too bad they're not marketing them well enough.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:23 AM
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I have very much (if to a lesser degree) identified with TNC's comments about readjusting from a violence-based world to one in which one-on-one violence is never acceptable. Until I was in my mid-20s or so I had a serious problem not reacting to panic with violence. It still flashes to the surface sometimes and is very worrisome.

I was talking to a colleague here who grew up in an extremely violent neighborhood where fighting established all social hierarchies, and he still brags about breaking bones and knocking people's teeth out. The legacy of that is that he is obsessed with handguns. He's a PhD in a super-rural area with almost no street crime, and he illegally carries a gun with him at all times. The panic he feels when someone comes around the corner suddenly is intense. I quietly suggested that maybe that's all the more reason *not* to carry a gun on one's person.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:36 AM
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I've seen increasing numbers of these Honda Fit vehicles on the road recently, and find them ... attractive. To look at, I mean, enough so that I noted the make and model.

Back to the OP: no love for William Kristol? Probably my number one candidate at this time, he of the recent Weekly Standard piece advising Republicans to 'kill the bill' (immigration / border bill), which they more or less did, with arguments along the lines of those sketched by Himself.

I can't quite decide how he'd acquit himself in a fight, in part because I'm not a physical fighter in the first place.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:42 AM
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He's a PhD in a super-rural area with almost no street crime,

People specialize in odder and odder things.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:42 AM
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I've long wanted to punch that smirk off Kristol's face.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:49 AM
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149, 154: Newt was assigned A Separate Peace for summer reading this year. I have no idea on earth why. I mean, exploring different cultures through literature is valuable, I suppose, but wealthy New England boys in boarding school in the 1940s struggling with self-loathing inspired by suppressed homosexual desire wouldn't be high on my list of cultures they needed to learn about.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:55 AM
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I drove a regular Prius and hated it. My Prius C is fun though--especially when I need to make a quick turn left in the city.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 11:57 AM
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Yes, the Prius C is much better than the Prius regular.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:01 PM
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Yes, the Prius C is much better than the Prius regular.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:01 PM
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I think we've had this discussion before. We have a Prius (my wife had it before we got married). It's slow, but in the city, what difference does it make? And in the unmonitored definitely rural West of New Mexico, it would still do 100, which is about as fast as I'm willing to go in this, my dotage.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:02 PM
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Why is the Prius C particularly good at left turns?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:04 PM
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Well, if your argument is "I'm lame, why shouldn't my car be lame?" I can't really argue with that.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:05 PM
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Have I mentioned that Buck had a midlife crisis moment and bought himself a Dodge Challenger a couple of months ago? Silly thing to do, but it does go around corners in a satisfying kind of way.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:05 PM
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NICE


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:05 PM
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172: I'm glad someone else asked.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:06 PM
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re: 163

The panic he feels when someone comes around the corner suddenly is intense.

That seems odd. It doesn't fit with my experience of people who've grown up somewhere rough and are no longer living somewhere rough, at all. I'd expect something very different.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:06 PM
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Dodge Challengers do look good, in a sort of stupid-American-muscle-car way. Being European/British, my taste runs to small fast cars that corner properly on narrow windy roads. But there is something aesthetically interesting about the big-stupid-US variety, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:07 PM
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174: he should rebadge it like a LeMans and you can re-enact the French Connection chase.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:09 PM
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166: I've long wanted to punch that smirk off Kristol's face.

How would that go, though, is the question.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:10 PM
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Sifu jounced the limb.

Sifu swept the leg.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:11 PM
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I was talking to a colleague here who grew up in an extremely violent neighborhood where fighting established all social hierarchies, and he still brags about breaking bones and knocking people's teeth out...The panic he feels when someone comes around the corner suddenly is intense.

That panic doesn't sound like someone who was holding his own in physical confrontations.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:12 PM
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SXT or R/T? Also "cornering" not generally on the list of the Challenger's great attributes, but it's a hell of a car and I know what you mean, it does corner in a satisfying somewhat 70s-esque way.

Also please tell him he has my permission to use whatever money you have to upgrade to a Hellcat this year (only 707hp).


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:13 PM
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SXT or R/T?

No idea. He has been talking admiringly about the Hellcat, but we'd have to talk the kids out of going to college first.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:16 PM
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if your argument is "I'm lame, why shouldn't my car be lame?"

You live in LA. I live in Chicago(ish). A fast car in an urban setting is an almost complete waste. I mean, enjoy those awesome highway merges. A nice car is different, if it's quiet, has a good sound system, etc., because you're mostly just sitting in it like a living room.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:16 PM
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182 before I saw 177, but yeah, what ttaM said.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:16 PM
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(My main point of comparison on the 'cornering' thing was the elderly Ford station wagon we drove until it died a few years ago. I may merely have been reacting to a car that was definitely not going to have any parts falling off it if I turned abruptly.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:17 PM
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A fast car in an urban setting is an almost complete waste.

Yeah. If I had my old car around here (not that it was so enormously fast) I'd mostly just feel bad about how it was silly for me to have my old car around here. "Man, I am going to jam through the three or four thousand miles I drive this year!"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:19 PM
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Sifu jounced the limb.
Sifu swept the leg.

Out of the night he burnt like a dead white star. Sifu opened his arms. Sifu kissed her on the lips. Sifu possessed it.

This moment brought to you by the very loose associations that happen in my tiny brain.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:20 PM
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174, 178: I agree it looks good, as does the Mustang. The Camaro looks like a talking character from Cars.

My son's gotten into guns and hot cars out there in ruralia. Partly because it's not hard or crazy in such a sparsely populated area, and no doubt to go against prevailing norms at the college.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:21 PM
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Sifu jounced the limb.
Sifu swept the leg.
Out of the night he burnt like a dead white star. Sifu opened his arms. Sifu kissed her on the lips. Sifu possessed it.

A banner with the strange device, EXSIFUSORE!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:22 PM
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Stormcrow way upthread at 54: Ezra Klein sat in for Chris Hayes last night, and it was interesting to see how less comfortable he was in the role of host as opposed to guest. Not a criticism, similar but different roles are very different, it was just quote apparent that he was pushing his comfort zone.

This is interesting: I didn't see it that way. Klein has guest hosted for Hayes a number of times before, and he was a lot more cocky and smirky (a literal half-smile on his face). He's been sitting in this week for a couple of days, and the smirk is off his face; his affect and vocal range is much flatter. He actually looks and sounds now like he's taking things very seriously, which is a nice change.

This is possibly because he's had a re-think on his stand regarding Israel. The sober face is an improvement.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:23 PM
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On a starred night Sifu Tweety uprose.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:23 PM
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There was at least one drive-by shooting outside my high school, but I don't think anyone was killed and the authorities were quick to point out it didn't involve current students.

Most of the fighting was run of the mill or involved freshman getting "jumped" which may or may not have been basically a mugging on school grounds. Closest I've been to a fight was trading shoves on a camping trip at the end of an argument. That was also in high school but not a school trip.

I do worry about provoking someone's road rage these days so rather than drive defensively I usually drive resignedly, inevitably getting cut off a fair bit. And still I end up cutting people off myself, like this morning when someone did that thing where they see you use your turn signal and immediately try to take the space in the lane you want to move into.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:25 PM
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Wait, so the Dodge Challenger is your family vehicle?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:48 PM
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Strictly, we don't really need (and haven't had for the last few years) a family vehicle; we'd been getting by on public transportation and occasional rentals. It is the only car we own, if that's what you mean.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 12:54 PM
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My new office is 420 convenient. Which is to say, my new office is 419.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:13 PM
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No idea. He has been talking admiringly about the Hellcat, but we'd have to talk the kids out of going to college first.

Grrr. No, you wouldn't. You just wouldn't be able to help them pay for it.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:14 PM
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We've been around this one before. Yes, I could throw them out of the house at eighteen and say "Root, hog, or die." Not going to, though.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:16 PM
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You live in LA. I live in Chicago(ish).

Worst argument ever. Buck lives in goddamn Manhattan and got himself a sweet Mopar muscle car.

Yes, I could throw them out of the house at eighteen and say "Root, hog, or die," AND HAVE A 700HP CHALLENGER HELLCAT. Don't forget that part.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:33 PM
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172: I stopped mid comment, because the ENT came in the room.

I mentioned left turns in particular, because I can accelerate quickly from a stop sign and make the turn even when oncoming traffic is approaching. Turning right, avoiding oncoming traffic is not an issue. In the UK, of course, I would notice it while making right turns.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:37 PM
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We've been around this one before.

Yes, but it still makes me growl.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:38 PM
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Honestly, my universe is rocked by the revelation that the Breath family rolls Challenger. So great.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:39 PM
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I would like to know more about the Challenger. Which engine does it have? What color is it?


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:41 PM
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Buck's a country boy, raised by two generations of Chrysler mechanics. I'm bemused, but as long as I still have access to public transportation, however he gets around is fine with me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:42 PM
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I had a quality old fashioned scrap the New Year before last; some little scrote had grabbed the landlord of the Irish pub on Kentish Town Road (not Quinn's, the nice one) by his tie and was giving him trouble. So I wandered over and grabbed said scrote by the neck and he let go. Then he sort of struggled and half punched me, then I punched him, then he ran away. It was all quite dramatic although everyone present was pretty drunk. I don't think I even got a free pint out of it.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:44 PM
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White. On the engine, I think it was the largest of the available options, but I honestly don't remember. Some kind of weirdo semi-manual transmission, where it's an automatic if you leave it alone, but if you want to shift up or down you can. (But paddles on the steering column -- no stick, no clutch pedal).

That may be all I know about it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:44 PM
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The SXT is a V6, the R/T is a V8.

I think the R/T only comes with a real manual, though, not a Tiptronic automatic, so it must be the SXT. Time to check.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:50 PM
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177/182: Yeah, though he admitted that part while extremely drunk. Most of the time it's all hard talk about how men gotta have guns to protect their families and shit. "You come between me and my kids, we've got problems," etc. Plus zombie apocalypse ha ha ha. I'm like, uh, it's not a ha ha ha if you're actually packing heat everywhere you go. He claims not to bring it on campus at least.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:50 PM
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Texting Buck gets the following response:

5.7 liter v8 hemi engine, 375 horsepower with sport extensions and track pack suspension and 20 inch rims.

Is that roughly what you wanted to know?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:50 PM
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Great, now urple and Halford are jerking off at work.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:51 PM
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I kind of am. Much approval.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:52 PM
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211: urple needs to know the color to get off.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:57 PM
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213: Yeah, me too.


Posted by: Opinionated John Mayer | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 1:59 PM
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On cars (and getting off): If you haven't tried Mimi Smartypants' game of putting the word "Anal" before car names, I highly recommend it.


Posted by: torque | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:08 PM
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Anal Probe!

Yeah, that was fun...


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:11 PM
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But wouldn't an Anal Fiesta be even more fun?


Posted by: torque | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:15 PM
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198/202: I bit my tongue, but it pleased me that Urpie didn't.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:15 PM
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So here's what I just do not understand. The sensation of speed is really fantastic on a motorcycle, especially low to the ground, or in sharp turns. Honestly, anything else is a distant second.

Having a big engine while in a metal box is kind of cool, but that sensation is basically improved on by a locomotive.

Cars just seem like an unfortunate midpoint between a responsive dirt bike and a maglev.

To 214, who broke up with whom, did you leave Jennifer or did she leave you?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:17 PM
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You've got different issues, though -- Urple has a problem with paying for college at all, you just think there's no reason it should be expensive for someone who has any sense.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:18 PM
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213 is great.

Buck is, of course, insane for buying such a car in Manhattan.

Anal Corolla
Anal Prius
Anal Camry
Anal Sienna

Toyota must have a filter for this game.

Anal 535i
Anal S550

Nope. Dumb game.

Anal Torque.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:19 PM
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Cars just seem like an unfortunate midpoint between a responsive dirt bike and a maglev.

If you think of them as an incredibly fast and controllable stagecoach that produces a surprisingly small amount of horseshit, on the other hand, they're awesome.

221.2: That subject was raised.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:21 PM
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No, my recollection is that Urple and I saw things more or less the same - that a perfectly good state education (ie Binghamton) is a reasonable thing to guarantee to your kids, and anything above that they can secure funds for, good for them. (I personally believe that your kids would be able to secure scholarships to a higher ranking school, but I also agree that it's not guaranteed, and that it's perfectly fine to send them to Binghamton if nothing else pans out.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:22 PM
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Anal Spike
Anal peep
Anal Eggplant


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:22 PM
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Anal Outback


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:23 PM
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To 214, who broke up with whom, did you leave Jennifer or did she leave you?

Jennifer? Which one?


Posted by: Opinionated John Mayer | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:23 PM
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214! I meant 214 is great. 213 is fine. There there 213.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:23 PM
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The "anal" game only works well for Ford and Dodge.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:24 PM
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My husband really wants one of the new Challengers, but has to pay down more on his Camaro before he can trade it in. I can't believe I'm married to a car guy.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:24 PM
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Nissan wins here-- armada, maxima, quest, cube


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:24 PM
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223: If to you, $160K (eight years of SUNY) isn't an alarming prospect, more power to you.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:24 PM
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Halford and dsquared confirm: never go to a bar.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:25 PM
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Where you might run into either of them.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:25 PM
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226. Aniston. Ever since Brad Pitt left her for Angelina Jolie, I have been curious about her actual personality.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:26 PM
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Even Toyota's got the Tundra, 4Runner, and Sequoia.


Posted by: torque | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:28 PM
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My growling was actually just a reaction to the very classist idea that kids whose parents can't afford to pay their way through college don't go to college. (Or at least, not to one worth going to.)


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:29 PM
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Oh, and what she drives of course, because cars give us freedom and simultaneously express our true inner personalities. Much more so than a capacity for reason or compassion or any of that other superficial bullshit.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:29 PM
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236. Dude, they're not going for the education, they can get that anywhere unless they're biologists or historians. They're going for a cohort effect that will both set norms and pay off in job contacts later in life.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:31 PM
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I.e., "He has been talking admiringly about the Hellcat, but buying one would mean we couldn't pay for the kids' college" wouldn't have produced a growl.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:33 PM
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229: We've been discussing our next car (which, knock wood, won't be for a couple of years) for the past three years. Then again, this thread makes me think we should just ask Halford.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:34 PM
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The "anal" game only works well for Ford and Dodge.

We've been over this before.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:36 PM
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Then again, this thread makes me think we should just ask Halford.

If you're basing your decision on performance, this is probably a good idea.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:38 PM
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I'm in a bar right now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:38 PM
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241 -> 230 as well.

My husband really wants one of the new Challengers, but has to pay down more on his Camaro before he can trade it in.

J. Robot is Jill Biden?


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:39 PM
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231: If my kids got absolutely no merit scholarships in that situation, and I didn't feel comfortable taking on 160K in loans, then we'd talk about what portion of the loans would be in their name. Or if they wanted to do the first two years at a community college.

I really hate myself for typing this out instead of letting sleeping dogs lie.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:39 PM
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You know what's great? Minivans.

If that special someone in your life wants a fast car, tell him to buy a used 240Z or S2000 or WRX. Fast, fun, cheap, doesn't really matter if you wreck it!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:40 PM
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I have very current feelings on my minivan.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:42 PM
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Seriously, let's not malign bars because some of us have bad tempers.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:42 PM
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236: I got you. Does it help if I explain that my thinking was not that going to college was impossible without ones parents paying for it, but that parental guilt would make that level of frivolous spending impossible unless the kids promised not to want help paying for college? Driving up to campus in the Hellcat while the kids accumulated a crippling burden of student loans would take all the fun out of it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:43 PM
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It's no Challenger, but in terms of a compromise between performance, fuel economy, cargo room and all around utility, I've been very happy with my TDI sportwagen.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:44 PM
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The last sentence of 249 is clearly wrong.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:46 PM
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I went to a fancy college, paying for the tuition with scholarship and loans, while my parents were able to cover room and board and help with books. At the time, tuition was $30K a year. (Tuition there now is about $42K.) The deal we struck in high school was that I could go to any college I decided I could afford, but that I couldn't expect support for tuition, which meant I had to turn down Chicago.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:49 PM
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250: Passat or Jetta? I've given some thought to the former. We need to replace the Fleurmobile, which is now 10 years old and has cost us $4,000 in repairs already this year. I don't know if Fleur will ever love a car as much as that one.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:52 PM
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I don't actually think LB should buy a Hellcat with college decisions imminent. That is reasonable. Anyway, what's a hellcat?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:52 PM
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The thing about 252 is that the discount rate for fancy colleges can be extremely high, so the tuition doesn't really matter if the scholarships are being spent on attracting a big talented population. At my alma mater, almost everyone came because of a big scholarship, which meant that we were spared having to spend four years with all rich kids. I had a bigger package offer at another very good school, but they only made a few scholarship offers, so most of the other students were from wealthy families, so I didn't want to go there.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:53 PM
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249: yes, okay, that actually does help. You think college assistance for the kids is a more responsible use of money than buying a Hellcat. Nothing wrong with that.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:53 PM
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TDI Jetta sportswagen is a very respectable choice. The new GTI sounds like the best all purpose lifestyle supportive price/value car out there right now. Haven't driven one but am thinking about getting one. If you want something sporty/practical, that or a WRX. Also a big fan of the Caddy ATS as a reasonable value luxury car. If you need a bigger wagon the new Volvo actually looks very good, or an old 3 series.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:58 PM
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Did you explain your drunk-libertarian thing yet? I missed a lot today.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:58 PM
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To urple.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:59 PM
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255: Methinks you missed the extended, ill-tempered (me), not-well-resolved argument that this is building on.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 2:59 PM
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I am amused at the thought of scholarships as the price that schools have pay normal people in order to get them to spend four years with rich kids. The more rich kids there are on campus, the bigger scholarship they'll have to pay!

If only the world really worked that way.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:00 PM
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I wish that public universities were still affordable and reasonable alternatives to private education. I'll be paying back my undergraduate loans for a long time, while friends who did well at the local, reasonably priced, excellent university also ended up with great lives (in and out of academia). On the whole, I think going to a good state school would have been a fine choice in 1997. But now, state schools are getting more expensive, classes are more often taught by adjuncts, and you're less likely to be wooed by the kind of discount you'd get at a private school. At the college where I teach, we guarantee that anyone who is accepted will not be put in a position of taking more than a very particular loan cap. If they're accepted, the college makes it financially feasible for them to come. (Problems arise when, say, a sibling drops out of college and the expected family contribution doubles.)


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:07 PM
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Anyway, if LB's fears are that she's worried about footing a 160K Binghamton bill, then I've vastly misunderstood her concerns and we can declare comity.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:10 PM
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261: This is not far from the case. Those big discounts are to get a more diverse group onto campus. Cosmetic diversity serves to convince the world (and the students) that they're living in a little meritocracy, where everyone deserves to be there. God knows if it weren't for our enormous discount rate, almost no person of color would choose to live where I do.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:11 PM
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242: That is basically how most of the car conversations go now. These conversations make me silently (or not so silently) wish that our current car continues its run of good health because I'm not looking forward to having a car payment. It's funny that Halford's taste in cars is very similar to ours.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:12 PM
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I bit my tongue, but it pleased me that Urpie didn't.

Yeah, I wouldn't like urple biting my tongue, either.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:14 PM
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263: I am still considering paying for non-SUNY colleges; $160K -- the cost of SUNY -- was meant as a low end ballpark for the size of the problem. If that means no comity, then no comity.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:14 PM
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Our Anal Golf has been perfectly good to us and LB is still being weird about anal scholarships to anal-tier colleges.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:16 PM
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People put orange wedges in beer now. I don't know why this is allowed. I warned people that it wouldn't stop with Corona.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:18 PM
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267: My impression was that Binghamton was in the realm of unacceptable schools for reasons that pissed me off. If it's a safety school and you want to build up from there, have at it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:20 PM
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My impression was that Binghamton was in the realm of unacceptable schools for reasons that pissed me off.

I completely fail to understand why this is something you feel entitled to be angry about.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:23 PM
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Stop trying to find comity, Heebie. No one wants to live in Texas, ok?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:24 PM
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271: Because some of your reasons included dismissing giant portions of people as being too racist for your children to be exposed to, and implying that this wouldn't happen at better institutions. What a presumptive asshole I am to take that personally.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:27 PM
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I drove through Binghampton about ten years ago. It was sort of a shit hole, if appearances are anything to go by.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:35 PM
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If that's your entire issue, I will say (a) I have no reason to believe the students at SUNY Binghamton are any more or less racist than those at Yale, and that consideration forms no part of my thinking in relation to that school (b) I should not have used different standards of what level of racism/homophobia it might be acceptable to publicly express as a synecdoche for my concerns about the social atmosphere in a small rural school with a predominantly local student body in the South as being an unpleasant place for my kids to spend four years, given that I haven't actually attended such a school myself, and I apologize for doing so.

Now, is there anything else you're angry about?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:35 PM
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I completely fail to understand why this is something you feel entitled to be angry about.

Made me think of this passage from Frank Kogan.

It's unintentionally poignent when Flavor Flav says, "I got a right to be hostile, man. My people been persecuted." This reminds me of Chuck Eddy's "the Bad Brains have earned their anger" accolade, and it has the same problems. Hostility is a feeling not a right. But Public Enemy have to justify their hostility before they can feel it -- or at least before they can express it. Normal everyday hostility's not good enough -- it's got be righteous hostility. It's got to be world-important, or it's no good. So Flavor Flav's feelings are only real to himself in the context of "his people's" victimization.

Heebie can feel angry about anything she wants. You, of course, don't have to respond to that anger by changing either your opinions or actions, but you seem comfortable with that.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:39 PM
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The lack of economic opportunity in up-state New York?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:40 PM
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At the college where I teach, we guarantee that anyone who is accepted will not be put in a position of taking more than a very particular loan cap. If they're accepted, the college makes it financially feasible for them to come. (Problems arise when, say, a sibling drops out of college and the expected family contribution doubles.)

Just today we were informed my son's loan amount will be reduced by the amount my wife's institution's parity contribution increased, so his loan for the coming semester will be in 3 figures. His loan burden will be very small by contemporary standards.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:41 PM
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Nope, that was the bulk of it.

The way you phrased (b) makes me wonder about the non-synecdochal concerns, but if they're not based in overgeneralizations about a conservative/racist student body, then that addresses my anger.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:43 PM
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Awesome. I'm so glad we can put that behind us.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:45 PM
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Isn't CUNY still very cheap, and by definition not in a small town? This may be very out of date. Anyhow, every time this comes up, I push the Webb Institute, clearly the best value in American Education, plus you get to learn to build and sail on boats.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:46 PM
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275: I'm angry that we're not doing more to combat global warming.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:49 PM
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And I know that Cooper Union isn't free anymore, but isn't it still cheap?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:50 PM
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I'm angry that he's angry.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:50 PM
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I'll do my best not to jump on your case if you chat about Sally's application process as it unfolds. No promises.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:51 PM
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281: Jesus, Rob, give me a chance to get them out of the apartment. I love them, but I don't want them living at home. (Although it would be cheap.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:51 PM
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Not being used to being around white people accustomed to segregation was the big reason I turned down the rural southern college where I got the big scholarship. (That was my impression during my visit, not one I brought with me. Rich whites with rich whites, poorer whites with poorer whites, and I was not introduced to any people of color there by my white hosts.) It turns out there were still some of these people at the college I attended, but since it was in a 60% African-American urban area, they were the ones who had to get over it.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:51 PM
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What school was it?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:52 PM
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Careful, AWB. Them's fighting words.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:52 PM
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CUNY! CUNY forever!


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:52 PM
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W/ake F/orest


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:52 PM
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I'm openly hoping you say Carson-Newman.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:52 PM
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Damn. But I have a pretty negative impression of 291, myself.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:54 PM
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290 to 281, 291 to 288. I realize that it's possible I had a bad sample, but even the girl I stayed with told me, tearfully, not to come. We got to be really close during my visit because she was so lonely.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:54 PM
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All I can say now is what the everloving fuck.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:55 PM
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The people I know who love WF are all sort of awful.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:55 PM
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Sorry, I was out all afternoon and will proceed to extend moribund subthreads:

Being European/British, my taste runs to small fast cars that corner properly on narrow windy roads.

I was raised this way by my mom, whose first car was a TR3, and just this afternoon I saw what I'm pretty sure is the only TR3 in town (it has vanity plates, and is immaculately British Racing Green, which was the color my mom wished hers had been, so I always pay it attention). I don't give a shit about American muscle cars. Well, a small shit; I went to HS in North Jersey.

I was going to marvel at adults engaging in confrontation when I remembered that, maybe 10 years ago now, I brandished my bicycle at an asshole who got out of his car to yell at me (basically for being on a bike; I hadn't been breaking anything resembling a law). If he'd taken about 2 more steps, I would have swung it at him, but I think he read that I was angrier than he was.

Other than that, I don't think any confrontations since Jr. High. Maybe a staredown or two in HS, nothing memorable. Like togs, I'm pretty non confrontational.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:57 PM
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I stayed at WF for a night on a break from a college trip, and I do remember it striking me as a super-Southernified and likely racist place. I think we went to some kind of hay ride party and there was not a single person with any drop of color anywhere in sight.

Unlike the Webb Institute, which is free, full of minorities, and you get to build and ride on boats.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:57 PM
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Can we all pretend that 296 is about ogged's favorite supermarket chain?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:58 PM
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I will say that the WF admissions people were so incredible. They were really open and welcoming and warm. I remember their first question during my interview was something about my expressed interest in French cinema, and we ended up gabbing about the future of French filmmaking for the whole hour. And the girl I stayed with was really sweet and smart--obsessed with Buckminster Fuller. She wrote me letters in colored pencil for months afterward. But holy shit I hated every other person I met there.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 3:59 PM
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295: Is that to me?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:00 PM
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I'd need to compare with BioHazard, but I've probably got the most experience here with 1st generation muscle cars. This would have been in the 70s, when they were a few years old, although still highly-prized. Drove an early Firebird quite a bit. I'm endorsing Ogged's suggestion to get an older sports/muscle car you can be a little more relaxed about.

My wife's grandfather kept his '67 Charger registered into the 90s, and I had the job of taking it for its emissions tests. Out Lake Cook near Milwaukee, if I remember correctly. I'd take it on the Edens for a "poor man's tuneup," a couple of full-to-the floor accelerations, starting from slow on the ramp to stay legal as long as possible. Now that I think of it I'd probably have been safer on the toll road but was too cheap/dumb. Acceleration was fun, not like a motorcycle but not like most cars either. But the steering was really sloppy, and the car fishtailed a lot trying to get back down to legal speeds. Drums all around, bias ply tires, not maintained. Hairy, as we used to say.

My brother's Viper, my only other comparison in recent years, was not very refined either but was a lot better than that.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:00 PM
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301: You betcha.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:02 PM
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Anyhow, what is LB worried about. Her kids will be fine at random Southern backwoods scholarship college as long as they show up in their sweet ride, the Challenger, especially if they can show pictures of Dad's new Hellcat.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:03 PM
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They can paint it orange, to fit in better.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:04 PM
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303: Yes, you're supposed to distinguish between specific colleges and not assume that Agnes Scott is going to be Southern Gentrified like Wake Forest. That's why I said it's the overgeneralizations about conservatism and racism that make me see red.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:06 PM
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Agnes Scott isn't rural, though. Decatur's nice.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:08 PM
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The new GTI sounds like the best all purpose lifestyle supportive price/value car out there right now.

Anecdotally, VW's seem kind of prone to electrical problems.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:09 PM
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To be fair, even a lot of the grand old Southern schools have been working like hell to integrate since I looking at colleges. W&L used to be one of the worst, and I've heard it's gotten a lot better. I didn't even apply after visiting campus in 1995. I had racist drunken white rich shithead tremors for a week after. But it's getting considerably better, from what I hear.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:11 PM
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I had a quality old fashioned scrap the New Year before last; some little scrote had grabbed the landlord of the Irish pub on Kentish Town Road (not Quinn's, the nice one) by his tie and was giving him trouble.

Hey, I like Quinn's. Also, it's not really an Irish pub, despite the name and the appearance. It's a Belgian beer pub.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:11 PM
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Guess which former Kentish Town resident was responsible for that post.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:12 PM
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You have no idea how much your reaction has reinforced my concerns. Anyplace where people are so touchy that things like the following:

To get specific, I think my kids would have a really hard time anywhere they had to listen to casual racist language, or where people were aggressively hostile about atheists. I'm not worried about them in the South or West, but the very local non-cosmopolitan bits of the South and West, I'd be afraid I was setting them up for four years of being outraged and being that NYC asshole who thinks they can tell everyone else how to talk.
are a setup for being pissed off for months, I'd really hate to be stuck there for four years.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:12 PM
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People put orange wedges in beer now.

The non-smoky bar does that with all their wheat beers, which I think is pretty common. For anything else, probably a monstrosity.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:13 PM
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Catching up to the more recent comments, I believe that I commented last time generalizations about the South came up that I think it's fucking hilarious that it's supposed to be slanderous to make generalizations about the racial politics of the region that decided to abandon 120 years of fervent allegiance to the Democratic Party the moment that the GOP committed to being more racist than the Dems. Sure, it's only an electoral majority; if you consider all the nonvoters who disagree, I'll bet it's just a substantial plurality, same as all those states that don't uniformly vote for the Party of White Resentment.

For the record, I bet LB's kids would be pretty unhappy at Lock Haven University. Would I trust Central Pennsylvanians to be one iota less racist than rural Texans? No.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:14 PM
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If they go to the Webb Institute, the kids could have the Challenger, Buck could have a Hellcat, and the kids could also have access to boats, the capacity to build boats, and guaranteed jobs far away, like a freighter off the coast of Malaysia. This is the plan where everyone wins.

308 -- oh, yes, don't get a pre-2011 VW for sure. Description applies to new model only, it won't be the most reliable car on the market but it probably won't have the ridiculous issues plaguing VW in the late 90s-mid 2000s. But a WRX is definitely way more reliable and if you're looking used you should most def look there.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:14 PM
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The new GTI sounds like the best all purpose lifestyle supportive price/value car out there right now

We would not, still, buy a car from that country. Something about cars, especially that make. The prohibition does not extend to dishwashers, thank goodness.

Then again, I've a Korean-Friend who's grown up avoiding Japanese electronics, which is harder.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:17 PM
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The service academies are also free, except that people here don't believe in serving their country.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:17 PM
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Sally's got a friend who's hoping for West Point, actually. She's not much of an athlete, though, and I kind of think that's required, isn't it?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:18 PM
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309: To subvert 314, I'd be pretty shocked if Generation Gay Marriage isn't substantially more racially enlightened, even if it's not quite a sea change. I strongly suspect that the process is one of refining the populace from a lot of people with broadly held racism to a core of genuine, committed racists (who may hold self-justifying delusions along the lines of "undeserving poor", but nonetheless identify as the right sort of people).


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:18 PM
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I'd be afraid I was setting them up for four years of being outraged and being that NYC asshole who thinks they can tell everyone else how to talk.

OMG, this is my life. Yes, yes, yes. It is horrible. Every single thing I say is interpreted as some snobby crap that east coast elite types say. And this is from people with PhDs. Being anti-racist, or interested in art, or wishing aloud that one could have sushi or curry in a restaurant turns me (no joke) into a blind item in student blogs and the school paper, where I see my comments repeated as a joke about those crazy coastal snobs. If you read restaurant reviews on Yelp from my town, they all say, "Oh sure, maybe this food ain't good enough for those snobby coastal elite professors, but it's good enough for me!" Any conversation I have here with a new person doesn't go two sentences without the person musing, "Well, you're sure not from here" and turning around. I am positive that not all rural colleges and towns treat their professors this way, but it makes me extremely wary about accepting a similar position again.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:19 PM
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I feel like my mommy and daddy are arguing. Don't blog divorce!


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:19 PM
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Then again, I've a Korean-Friend who's grown up avoiding Japanese electronics, which is harder.

316: If they were Korean-Amish it would be easier.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:20 PM
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supposed to be slanderous to make generalizations about the racial politics of the region that decided to abandon 120 years of fervent allegiance to the Democratic Party the moment that the GOP committed to being more racist than the Dems.

Not slanderous, just intellectually sloppy and amusingly self-congratulatory.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:20 PM
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For the record, our '04 Passat wagon had one pretty substantial electrical issue during the warranty period, but otherwise none in the last 10 years/81k miles. But I don't doubt we've been luckyish on that front.

Great car, though. For a long time we talked about replacing it with something a bit bigger, so as to accommodate 2 kids with a friend each (think Mazda 5, available with a stick), but lately we've been talking about investing a chunk of money in this car with the goal of getting it past the point of having 2 kids at home.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:21 PM
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Right, should have been Korean-American friend...


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:22 PM
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IME, rural stereotypes hold more true than South/North stereotypes. I'm not in the South, and certainly rural Pennsylvania and parts of Ohio are like Nazi territory. We have Nazis here too. When I don't want to go to the bar frequented by Nazis, I am told this is because I am a coastal elite snob.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:23 PM
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I am surprised at comments re: coastal snobbery in student blogs + school paper; must not a fair number of students come from citified places?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:25 PM
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Come on, Nazis have great bars. It's like you haven't seen any WWII movies or that episode of Hogan's Heroes.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:25 PM
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327: INDEED. In fact, two students who quoted me this way in the paper this spring are from famously liberal urban places. But part of getting along here is proving your allegiance to the middlebrow by selling other people out.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:26 PM
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When I don't want to go to the bar frequented by Nazis, I am told this is because I am a coastal elite snob.

You coastal hipsters probably prefer to hang out in bars frequented by the Iron Guard.

"The Iron Guard? They're a pretty obscure fascist group. You've probably never heard of them."


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:27 PM
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"I was bored with the Nazis before the Anschluss."


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:28 PM
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330: Romanian?


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:29 PM
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Oh God, and the Yelp review I'm thinking of (we don't have many) that goes on and on about upper-class San Francisco snobs not appreciating the food (at this fucking vile pizza place, which he admits is not good, while giving it 5 stars) is a former student who lives in DC.

I am really irritable on this topic and should stop thinking about it.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:30 PM
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amusingly self-congratulatory

Call me the moment a CSA state elects a senator as progressive as second generation douchebag Casey.

Look, I'm sorry you hail from/identify with a region that sucks even worse than sucky northern states (and they're pretty sucky! ask about contract housing!), but it's not clear to me how pointing out that not literally every Southern white is an unreconstructed racist is a defense. The defense is when you can point to electoral majorities that favor progress over resentment. We're not talking about isolated rural districts here; it's an entire large, varied region united by one electoral trend that's 200+ years old.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:30 PM
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Romanian?

Da!


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:31 PM
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321: Heteronormativist!


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:32 PM
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It's not statewide, but do the mayors of let's see Houston TX and Jackson MS satisfy you? I guess the socialist who was mayor of Jackson died.

In other words, 326 gets it right.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:34 PM
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the mayors of... Jackson MS

Did I just see a profile of this guy somewhere? Can't remember his name, but he sounded spectacular.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:36 PM
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pointing out that not literally every Southern white is an unreconstructed racist

Riiight.

I'm not interested in defending anyone against their own smug certainties, so I guess I won't be calling you.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:37 PM
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I'm a bit of a connoisseur of Fascism: in Malaga 25 years ago I wanted to look for Leon DeGrelle's house but my companions thought I was nuts.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:39 PM
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338: The guy I'm thinking of just died recently, I don't think I know anything about the current mayor.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:45 PM
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318: One of my former students transferred to West Point, just finished his first year there. I've been appalled by pretty much everything he's told me about it w/r/t to the conservativism & anti-intellectualism of the student body. This student is a conservative evangelical himself (though not at all anti-intellectual), so I assume the situation must be dire if he's complaining about it.

Re:WF, I used to spend a weekend there every year during high school, as they host the national early bird high school debate tournament. The main thing I noticed at the time was all of the fancy ashtrays indoors.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:46 PM
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The fact that southern governors are shitheads who refuse Medicaid expansion has very little to do with whether a kid might have a really great experience at Tulane for four years before moving somewhere else. It's actually sometimes great to live somewhere unexpected for four years.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:47 PM
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(Also, my husband informs me that his Camaro SS is faster than Buck's Challenger, even though it has a smaller engine.)


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:48 PM
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(Also, my husband informs me that his Camaro SS is faster than Buck's Challenger, even though it has a smaller engine.)

It's too easy.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:52 PM
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Tulane: in one of the coolest cities in the world.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:52 PM
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343: Has anyone said a bad thing about Tulane? I admit I didn't list it specifically, but from the prior thread:

The thing is, off that list, Emory or Rice or Georgia Tech would be absolutely just fine with me;

The comments that were offensive enough that you were stewing over them since April certainly weren't a blanket condemnation of all schools in the South.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:53 PM
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I'm not rebutting anything, just wondering if we have any examples of a rural Southern college or university that's just wonderful. Most rural Northern colleges and universities also suck socially, but I can think of quite a few that don't.

Maybe William & Mary? Sort of? It's not very Southern or very rural, but many super-cool people I love went there. I just visited Williamsburg and that area of VA (if not the resort town) is very integrated and friendly.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:55 PM
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Another comment from the prior thread:

I don't think I'm doing that -- big schools down south are fine with me, so long as they're big/prestigious enough to be used to outsiders. It's the idea of making them spend four years being targets. I don't know, specifically, how much that's going to be a problem at any given school in a conservative area that doesn't get a lot of students who didn't grow up within shouting distance. But I don't think I'm being completely closed-minded in worrying that it might be a enough of a problem in that kind of school to make being a city kid raised as a semi-socialist difficult.

So, the intolerable generalization was that there might possibly be social problems for my kids in some schools with a very local student body.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 4:57 PM
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348 -- Appalachian State, Berea College, New College of Florida (not really rural, but close enough for LB's purposes), each and every one of the flagship state universities in every single southern state, except maybe Ole Miss and Alabama. This is all based on reputation, of course.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:00 PM
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Yeah, I have a (non-white) friend who teaches at Alabama, where he is friendless and spends a lot of his time being the guy to whom students from the black sorority tell about the crosses burned outside their house.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:02 PM
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I mean I don't really know how awesomely wonderful any of those places are, but they're most definitely not just hayrides with blonde sorority racists.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:03 PM
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A couple friends of mine really loved attending Auburn; both very socially liberal, one from Alabama and one not.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:03 PM
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350 - Are you prepared to die on the hill that is "Gainsville, Florida, is just wonderful"?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:04 PM
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333: if the most recent review on the Chinese place in your town is any guide, a) I'm kinda on the locals' side and b) you're not the only coastal snob for them to complain about.

(I'm actually really curious as to the story behind that review. I want to punch whoever wrote it in the face.)


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:05 PM
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I'm half-hoping at least one of my girls will choose Berea, especially if it meant I could justify buying a loom for us to share or something. Messing-about-in-Boats U sounds more up Mara's alley at this point. And tuition issues are different for us, too.

I never know what to say about the southern stuff because my not self-identifying as southern is part of the whole dynamic. I just think talking about southern white people as comprising The South means you're missing a lot.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:05 PM
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Sort of OT: I just witnessed the most horrible family fight (my wife's family, actually) that I've ever seen. There was no physical violence -- nor any threats on twitter -- but it was extremely uncomfortable. I suspect we're off to a hotel in a few minutes!


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:06 PM
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Oh yeah, Auburn counts, as long as you don't mind football. It's a great school with neat students.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:07 PM
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353: yeah, one of my friends (who grew up in Alabama and is very liberal) went there and seems to have liked it quite a lot.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:07 PM
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357: Serpentine, VW!


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:08 PM
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a rural Southern college or university that's just wonderful

There are some very nice places in the NC mountains--UNC-Asheville, Warren Wilson--but they aren't that academically high powered. Everything I know about Wake Forest involves basketball, so I can't say anything about the culture there. I can only think of one person I know who went to Wake Forest, and he's more of an imaginary internet acquaintance.

But yeah, the issue is rural versus urban, not rerally southern. The Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill-RTP is way way more liberal than just about anywhere in Idaho or Montana.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:10 PM
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Both of my parents went to Auburn. Chapel Hill is, of course, a goddamned awesome place to spend four years of your early adulthood.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:12 PM
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350 - Are you prepared to die on the hill that is "Gainsville, Florida, is just wonderful"?

Um...


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:13 PM
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A Muslim friend of mine had a terrible time at Chapel Hill, which surprised me. To him, the whole experience was conversations about how great Gone with the Wind is. But I think it was his first year in the US and everything was pretty isolating.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:13 PM
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Say, I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but it just occurred to me today that people tend to make a lot of generalizations about stereotypes and stuff, and that's really wrong. Everybody should be equal, you know? And if everyone is equal, then we shouldn't criticize what they do, because we're really being just as bad as the people we're criticizing, for the stuff that they don't actually do, but we do do, except that since we're all equal, we don't do it either, I guess?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:15 PM
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You could probably come up with a pretty informative map that drew a twenty-mile (or so) radius around every decent-sized (10,000 students?) secular college in the country. Those are safe zones. The rest: gonna be weird.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:15 PM
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Asheville is pretty young and hip.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:15 PM
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Asheville is fabulous. Was high on our list of places to move. Too many trees though. Hate trees. Also, "not humid for the South" is still pretty fucking humid.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:16 PM
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The comments that were offensive enough that you were stewing over them since April certainly weren't a blanket condemnation of all schools in the South.

Haven't gone back to the thread, so I don't actually remember very well. If that quote is the extent of everything, boy am I a jerk. I do remember you protesting that you had no way to distinguish a culturally awful school from a nice one, and also persisting in arguing against Heebie U, which I was in no way arguing in favor of.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:16 PM
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The real question is where are you likely to have the opportunity to fight a future pundit? Sadly, the Ivy League dominates this category too. But a fight with a future editor of a [State] Monthly or [something] Quarterly Review may be just as satisfying.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:17 PM
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conversations about how great Gone with the Wind is

Wow does that not line up with my experience at all.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:18 PM
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366 fails utterly for VW's new institution.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:18 PM
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352: but they're most definitely not just hayrides with blonde sorority racists

On the other hand, the schools that are just hayrides with blonde sorority racists have some amazing grant packages.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:18 PM
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Now that everyone is on to other topics, I can quietly note that I just remembered that I completely flipped my lid at a stranger in public about eight years ago. Hey, it happens. We're all adults here. Let's move on.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:19 PM
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But seriously, what's wrong with Gainesville, or am I being trolled, aren't I.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:19 PM
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371: Mine neither. But I have friends whose experience of NYC is all housewives talking about what their husbands like for dinner, and I'm like, wha? Sometimes you fall down a weird social rabbit hole and have a hard time getting out.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:20 PM
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A 20-mile radius is way way too big. The abortion signs start less than 5 miles out of town where I live.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:20 PM
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375: I'm going to Gainesville early next year. Tell me what to do there if I have free time.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:20 PM
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A 20-mile radius is way way too big

Yeah, I think you're right. 5 miles sounds better.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:21 PM
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I have a grandparent-level relative who was several times nat'l uphill motorcycle racing champion of USA, there's Indy 500 pit crew bosses in the near family tree, and not too far back rodeo champs as well. I seem to have dodged the relevant speed, derring-do and fascination with things that go genes sufficiently thoroughly that I often cannot find our car in a parking lot. The nuture of LPs of Bonneville flats drag races played after Thanksgiving dinner fell on stony ground chez moi.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:23 PM
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369: If that's your reaction to that quote, I'd actually appreciate it if you reread the whole thread. I just did, and I don't think what I said was more offensive than that.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:25 PM
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Too many trees though. Hate trees.

This has probably come up before but I'm surprised anyway.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:26 PM
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I had an overnight visit at Duke in highschool when I was looking at colleges. I don't remember it all that well, and don't remember having a particularly bad time, but I sure came out of it with the impression that it was not for people like me in a way that has lasted far longer than why I thought it. I don't think it was racism as such, more some sort of rich coolness that I found very offputting.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:29 PM
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Trees aren't so bad one at a time. Get a few trees together though, and suddenly you have a forest. And where there's a forest, that's right, bugs.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:29 PM
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I was surprised to learn that an essay author I am reasonably fond of went to Sewanee and really loved it. Because I am hopelessly provincial, it hadn't occurred to me that anybody with any particular redeeming qualities (at least on an intellectual level) would have gone there.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:31 PM
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The person I know who went to Sewanee is pretty great too.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:33 PM
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375: I'm going to Gainesville early next year. Tell me what to do there if I have free time.

Go see some alligators! Lake Alice is walkable from campus. If you have a car, go to Payne's Prairie or one of the sinkholes.

Campus area has ordinary levels of campus-y charm: there's probably live music and guest speakers. There is not much in the way of charming Southern cuisine, but there's normal-decent Thai and Indian and Cajun restaurants.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:36 PM
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I also have a friend who went to Sewanee (and played football there!).


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:36 PM
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Sewanee has a very liberal seminary attached to it. But otherwise that place really does look on a first glance like the worst of the worst.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:36 PM
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I always thought it was just for senior citizens who didn't get out much.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:36 PM
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Here's a charming quote to make LB's point from a Sewanee alum:

"I think they ought to leave it the way it is," said Dr. David W. Aiken, an alumnus who is an orthopedic surgeon in Metairie, La. "I wouldn't be for changing anything. I think they're doing quite well. What is the purpose of making it a more national school? Do I want kids from California, New York coming there? Not really."


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:38 PM
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Apparently they have a really excellent fiction program?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:39 PM
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Oh wow, the college thread again. Wheeeee!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:40 PM
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Holy shit, they have stained glass confederate flags in their fucking chapel.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:40 PM
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I visited Sewanee, but didn't apply. I think women had to wear dresses to class, which was a dealbreaker. But a friend of mine went and loved it, despite really not fitting in socially. She talks a lot about being too poor, not preppy enough, etc., but she got a great education and still has a lot of college friends.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:40 PM
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So far on that thread,

Comment 138:
LB:Leaving NYC, fine, and expected. Leaving urban areas generally, also fine. Going to a small rural school where they don't ordinarily get people who grew up more than four hours drive away seems like it could be sort of horrific;

Me: My impression - and again, everyone should be doubting my credibility - is that it doesn't mean going completely rural, but perhaps to a city of under a million.

So I wasn't arguing in favor of rural, then. Back to that thread.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:41 PM
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To be clear, my friend who went to Sewanee is from rural Alabama.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:41 PM
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Continuing on:

141 (LB): I honestly don't know, I just worry, but in terms of the student body in the sort of place you're talking about, would being located in a small city make much of a difference in terms of how much of a freak a Harlem/Washington Heights kid would be treated as?

I'm getting riled up all over again.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:42 PM
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I think Sewanee was on my list of places to apply at some point. I don't remember why except I got mail from them and didn't have a clear sense of how high I should be aiming.

+1 about trees sorta, especially in light of 384. Similar feelings about hills, it turns out. A few small, tasteful ones are pretty. A bunch of them that obscure which way to civilization and if starts to feel adversarial.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:46 PM
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398: At my college, we picked on the rural kids quite a bit for not knowing how to cross the street and being afraid of black people. It's not unreasonable to assume that urban kids can get shit on a bit in rural places.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:46 PM
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there's Indy 500 pit crew bosses in the near family tree

This really piques my interest, I know a shocking amount about those guys in certain eras. Really living a monastic and nomadic life, like the artists they were.

Some things are true even though Tom Wolfe says they're true.

Also love traditional hill climb bikes, with those long rear suspensions. And Bonneville.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:46 PM
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I've expounded at length about the horrors of my experience going to a tiny rural college in NW Wisconsin, the main of which was getting into a feud with the assholes who hung Confederate flags in their windows, so I won't go into greater detail now, but it sure seems to me, that, based on that experience, LB is absolutely right. I mean, I was at a school with a plurality of kids from Madison, Milwaukee and Rockford, and it was still pretty isolating and creepy and racist and weird.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:47 PM
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Wasn't Wisconsin recently named the most racist place in the US? Quite a distinction!


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:48 PM
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Milwaukee has been the most segregated big city in the country for decades.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:48 PM
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What we were specifically arguing about was schools whose student body was primarily drawn on a 400-mile radius, such that LB's kids would be at a geographic advantage. Context for

364 (LB): I don't think they'd be happy spending four years someplace where objecting actively to bigotry made them weirdos. I think they'll handle situations where they have to interact with bigots fine, but I don't want to trap them for four years in a small school where they're too heavily outnumbered.

Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:49 PM
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That's what it is. (Cleveland gave a huge *whew*.)


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:49 PM
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Right but that's because of Southrons.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:50 PM
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Me in 377:

I haven't even been telling anyone to go rural. Go to a city.

Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:50 PM
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I have a close relative who loves Gainesville. I'm not sure why. It was absurdly humid.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:50 PM
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Let's just copy the entirety of that other thread into this thread comment by comment, rather than readjudicating it in the indirect fashion prosecuted thus far.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:52 PM
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The wonderful band PopCanon was from Gainesville so it must be pretty decent.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:52 PM
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400: My response to that comment from that thread:

Kids just aren't treated like freaks according to where they're from. Kids are treated like freaks according to their charisma or lack there-of. Almost no one is treated like a freak in college, because it's not mandatory to spend endless hours with people you hate. Everyone who basically forms friendships easily will be fine socially; people who have trouble forming friendships will have trouble, regardless of how closely they resemble the median student.

Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:53 PM
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I am ashamed to say that most of my knowledge of Gainesville comes from my comprehensive reading of Pat Hughes's Diary of Indignities blog.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:54 PM
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Oh yeah, it's crazy humid there. Unbearably so. That's a valid criticism.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:55 PM
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I have one of his team shirts around the house somewhere. Uphill dude, there's a very dramatic picture of him coming off a bike near the top of a hill sometime in the 30's, maybe early 40's, still shows up in bike shops, on calendars, etc. Relatively recently his name was still widely recognized. Fairly miserable individual as a human being, but definitely knew his way round bikes.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:55 PM
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403: Worst place to be black, I think.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:56 PM
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That's a valid criticism.

Your criticism has been judged valid, Citizen Hick.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:57 PM
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My recollection of The Great Debate was that the issue was whether the LB offspring would be OK serving as geographical diversity in a distinctly regional college in the South/West. I took Heebie's side in this but I have to say that most (but, importantly, not all!) of these regional universities in the South look absolutely terrible socially while at the same time many of these places in the West are totally great.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 5:57 PM
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Nothin' more fun than Redlands.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:02 PM
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Gotta say that almost all of these Southern regional colleges also look pretty intimidating for a NYC kid.

As for the West, I've never heard of most of these places, even the ones in Southern California, and let's ignore one listing in particular, but at least you have some good cities to choose from.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:05 PM
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Here's a less-spectacular pic of him, from earlier:

http://genealogyimagesofhistory.com/images2/Harley-Davidson.jpg

Funny, mostly in family pics I don't remember him on a harley. In real life most of my memories of him are of waiting in the parking lot while one of the adults dragged him off a bar stool to come out blinking in the daylight and subject himself to seeing/being seen by the kids.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:07 PM
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420: I had cousin who got kicked out of Okla. Baptist for being *too* Baptist. We do not fuck around.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:10 PM
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LB's kids should go live with Halford for a year to establish residency*, then go to UCSD so they can have a chance to be in the Geisel Library when it lifts off to join the mothership.

*And also to condition their wheezing, etiolated urban physiques to proper standards of brutal troglodytic superiority.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:13 PM
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Nor do you dance, IIRC.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:14 PM
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Jesus h crust, UC is over 12k per year now? Obscene. And recently found out UCB doesn't let undergrads take composition classes so there goes that plan.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:16 PM
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The Geisel Library is a pretty fun building to hang out in. Shitty library, but who cares.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:17 PM
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Northwestern students can study in Oman or Romania and pay the on-campus tuition price, or they can stay in town and participate in student clubs and events.

Um, ok. Something tells me the letters were starting to swim around 3 am when the US News blurb-writer was considering Northwestern College (of Iowa).


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:17 PM
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I assume you're talking to me not-so-young neb. You are correct. At our wedding, instead of dancing, we asked the placidly seated guests to give us advice about a happy marriage. No one wanted to go first, so I called on baa.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:18 PM
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neb was snarking at Baptist me.


Posted by: AWB | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:20 PM
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Ah, how embarrassing for me.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:22 PM
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Sally is nothing if not brutal and troglodytic.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:22 PM
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we asked the placidly seated guests to give us advice about a happy marriage

...he explained in a thread titled "Just Words".


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:25 PM
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Which has been making me hum "More Than Words" all day long.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:27 PM
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so I called on baa


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:27 PM
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A friend of a friend does a weekly Wednesday comedy game show thing. My friend goes semi-often. It doesn't start until 9:30 or so and runs late.

I never, ever want to actually go out and put on real clothes and be around strangers until I'm maybe at least not pregnant. But given that I've got a long time to go, tonight's as good a night as any. But now that it's time to change, I just want to go to bed.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:33 PM
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so I called on baa

He had a better answer at the wedding.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:34 PM
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until I'm maybe at least not pregnant

IANAOBGYN, but I didn't think that was one of the possible conditions, unless you're pregnant with Schroedinger's Cat.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:36 PM
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Ugh, I just found out that it's basically standing room only. No no no.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:38 PM
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Back to the OP, Erick Erickson making a bold pitch to be everyone's preferred target [not linking]:

Not every Christian survives. Many are martyred. We, as Christians, should understand each person is called by the Lord in different ways. Ann and I are called to our keyboards to write and speak boldly. Dr. Brantly was called to Africa.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 6:49 PM
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439: best twitter response: "Erickson misspelled 'badly'".


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 7:32 PM
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I shouldn't even bother to say this, but the mockability of that line aside, the column isn't really so bad (it benefits from being a response to Coulter, who is the saddest of all things these days: a desperate troll).


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 7:40 PM
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I guess now we know which pundit ogged doesn't want to fight.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 8:11 PM
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You know in the old days
When a desperate troll was a strong troll
All the people they'd step back
When a desperate troll walked by


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 8:25 PM
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"[A] body nourishing social gospel"? He really didn't think that line through, did he?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:24 PM
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He doesn't need to think about what he writes. The Lord has called him to the keyboard, and whatever comes out is the pure essence of the divine.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 6-14 9:38 PM
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Damn you Stormcrow! NOw I have this stuck in my head

People try to put us down
Just because we troll around
Why don't you all f-f-f-fade away
and not try to tweet what we all say?


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 1:02 AM
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310: the beer at Quinn's is fine and the food not too bad, but you have to admit it is at the stabbier end of the spectrum. What's the one I'm thinking about called? Reilly's or something. I don't even live in Camden anymore.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 1:51 AM
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it took me a long time to realize that the truth of dudes acting like they want to fight is that very, very, vanishingly few dudes in fact want to fight. They just want to act like they want to.

As I seem to remember remarking in another context, the thing to understand about truly dangerous people is that, if they want to hit you, they will hit you. They will not spend quarter of an hour beforehand puffing up their chests and informing you in detail of how much they want to hit you.

I never, ever want to actually go out and put on real clothes and be around strangers until I'm maybe at least not pregnant.
Staying in, not putting on any clothes and being around people you know really well seems like a good way to not become not pregnant.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 2:14 AM
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They just want to act like they want to.

In other species of ape, ethologists describe this as an "aggression display".


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 2:50 AM
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310: the beer at Quinn's is fine and the food not too bad, but you have to admit it is at the stabbier end of the spectrum. What's the one I'm thinking about called? Reilly's or something. I don't even live in Camden anymore.

Maybe the Kentish Town spectrum, but not the London spectrum. It's not the loveliest of pubs, I'll grant, but it's not particularly rough. And, yes, I assume O'Reilly's is the one you're thinking of. Can't say I ever drank there myself. Too far away from my flat to be convenient and nothing in particular to get me to go out of my way.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 3:26 AM
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422: OK, I can't stop wondering - too Baptist?


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 4:20 AM
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I got in a fight at a party in college once. This dude said Malaysian crabs were better than Maryland crabs, and it came to blows. Afterwards, we drank more beer.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 5:06 AM
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449: not just apes. Very common for males of many species, usually when trying to impress females.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 5:46 AM
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452: So who gave crabs to whom?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 5:52 AM
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Ann and I are called to our keyboards to write and speak boldly.

[Choking sound, teeth grinding south, rustling and clunking while I look for a hardcover edition of something appropriate with which to beat that little twerp unconscious.]


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 6:54 AM
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They will not spend quarter of an hour beforehand puffing up their chests and informing you in detail of how much they want to hit you.

The closest I came to a real fight involved a jerk doing basically that. He actually tried to kick me in the face but misjudged the distance. I talked myself out of the situation but all the while hoping he'd try the face-kick move again because now that I was expecting it I was ready to answer with a swift one to the bollocks. The funny thing is that my sister knew him (she ran with a rougher crowd than me) and bitched him out until he was at the point of tears.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 7:42 AM
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The other unusual feature of his childhood was more mundane: but it meant the removal of all practical obstacles throughout his entire career. Hardy, with his limpid honesty, would have been the last man to be finicky on this matter. He knew what privilege meant, and he knew that he had possessed it. His family had no money, only a schoolmaster's income, but they were in touch with the best educational advice of late nineteenth- century England. That particular kind of information has always been more significant in this country than any amount of wealth. The scholar- ships have been there all right, if one knew how to win them. There was never the slightest chance of the young Hardy being lost -- as there was of the young Wells or the young Einstein. From the age of twelve he had only to survive, and his talents would be looked after.

This is from C. P. Snow's introduction to G. H. Hardy's A Mathematician's Apology

This passage resonates with me because we've lived the American analog to the phenomenon. As despite our own marginal success we've steered our kids through the Chicago Public Schools, to selective programs and schools, to scholarships and financial aid at good liberal arts colleges, we've employed the same kind of information, of privilege if you will, as Hardy's parents.

But the word survive, at the center of the last sentence, is equally important. The parents can steer, prepare and plan, but the child has to be subject to the rigors that accompany the privileges. There was never a question about Hardy taking his scholarship to Winchester, despite his thin skin and delicate nature, and Winchester was an awful place to be like that. Orwell tells a parallel story in Such, Such Were The Joys, and he was tough and hard even as a boy.

In fact, a few paragraphs on from the quoted passage, Snow tells the story of Hardy at Cambridge, earnest in his atheism, forced by the dean to write his parents about it if he would avoid compulsory chapel.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 08- 7-14 8:25 AM
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.if they want to hit you, they will hit you. They will not spend quarter of an hour beforehand puffing up their chests and informing you in detail of how much they want to hit you.

However it is still worth sloping off to the pub down the road, as they often change their mind about whether they really want to hit you towards the end of the evening when they've had a few more, or been wound up a bit by their idiot friends.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 08- 8-14 5:14 AM
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