Re: Bygones!

1

she woke up around 2:30am to a group of late-teenaged guys (and one girl) shining flashlights in her bedroom.

When I read this I pictured them standing outside the house shining lights in through the bedroom window or something. But no, they were actually in the house. Not good!


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:09 AM
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2

Sorry, I'll clarify.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:12 AM
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3

I read that the same way- shining lights in from outside, creepy but maybe not illegal? Probably at least trespassing since I assume given that he's a wealthy athlete they're not in some apartment with windows facing a busy street. Actually in the house, clearly a crime, so WTF police?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:13 AM
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4

I wrote that very poorly. Changed!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:15 AM
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5

Ah, it's clearly because he moved to Florida instead of staying in MA. Cops up here used to be racist but I'm sure are much better now because Obama had a beer with one of them.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:17 AM
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6

Interesting that they co-sleep with four kids. I'll bet in a huge house, you can fit a bed big enough to make that comfortable!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:17 AM
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7

She could have legally shot them all, right?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:17 AM
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8

7: yes, definitely.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:19 AM
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9

According to FL law, absolutely. But I think we know what the result of a black person shooting (still assumed to be white) kids would have been.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:19 AM
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10

8: I thought we were all assuming that they were white. So no.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:19 AM
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11

7 to 6. Yes, under Florida law it is legal to use lethal force if your kids won't go to sleep in their own damn beds for one night.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:25 AM
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12

Actually in the house, clearly a crime, so WTF police?

Maybe they're idiots.

"Law enforcement officers are not permitted by Florida law to make an arrest for a trespass of this nature unless the crime occurs in their presence," the statement said.

Sure, if all you have are competing allegations and no independent evidence, video, whatever. However, if you (the cop) show up to such a call and the suspects admit to the crime, you're generally on solid ground to take some action.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:39 AM
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13

They're not dumb. They just don't want to arrest the kids of the rich white folks in the neighborhood.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:46 AM
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14

Which is not to say that I'm a big fan of arresting kids. But some fairness would be awesome.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:47 AM
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15

So ogged thinks they should have been shot.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 8:50 AM
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6: By the time a basketball player is getting a custom bed to fit his height, might as well get proportionate width. An acre of bed!

I bet the guest beds are also pretty long.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:00 AM
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17

Someone should really ask the cops that. So, she could have legally shot them, right? Yes. But you don't think they committed a crime. No.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:01 AM
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18

That's the Trayvon/stand your ground standard, isn't it? Ok to shoot someone if you feel threatened even if they're not doing anything wrong?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:09 AM
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19

Especially since there were 7 home invaders. Mr. and Mrs. Allen should have assumed they were going to tie up all members of the family and hold them hostage for a big ransom.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:10 AM
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20

Maybe there were 7 because they heard the beds were really big and wanted to see how many guys would fit in one. Like phone booth stuffing from the 50s.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:14 AM
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21

Generally in Florida you can shoot home intruders (without a duty to retreat) even if they don't do anything else threatening. However, I'm not totally sure if that applies in a case like this where the doors weren't locked.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:19 AM
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As long as you don't steal anything, or leave any fingerprints, you can engage in Manson family-style creepy crawling? Interesting.


Posted by: protoplasm | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:21 AM
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Hrm, poking around a bit more suggests opening an unlocked door is still "forcible entry." So yeah, it seems pretty clear she would have been within her rights to kill them all.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:21 AM
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24

Florida Men Are Watching You Sleep


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:33 AM
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Actually in the house, clearly a crime, so WTF police?

"Nothing to see here, officer. We're interns for the NSA."


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:35 AM
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They're not dumb. They just don't want to arrest the kids of the rich white folks in the neighborhood.

Could be both! I've had to have a chat or two with co workers who've said similar to that statement. "Dude, you have a suspect who admitted to the crime and a victim who wants to press charges. It's probably a bad idea to tell the victim to pound sand and then leave."


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 9:39 AM
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27

Does anyone remember an episode in which a black person broke into a white person's home and survived was not charged with a crime?


Posted by: carrotflowers | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 11:50 AM
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28

I actually don't think it makes sense to criminalize this kind of stupidity. Some sort of slap on the wrist with a "next time you do something this stupid you'll be in big trouble" seems like the right response. We don't actually want all teenagers treated the way the criminal justice system treats black teenagers, we want black teenagers to be treated with decency too.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:10 PM
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29

The kids were white, age 18-19, six men and one woman, at least according to the local TV news in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale. They also say Allen isn't happy that the cops wouldn't do anything about it.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:20 PM
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28: you don't think breaking and entering should be criminal?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:26 PM
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31

I can't begin to imagine how infuriating that must be.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:26 PM
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32

Civil suit. Trespass quare clausum fregit.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:29 PM
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33

Seconding 28. They fucked up. The probably know this.

Surely retribution is not the point of the justice system.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:30 PM
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34

Okay, I'm pretty well against most criminal justice as generally delivered but honestly I am not convinced "you get to break into a celebrity's house while they're sleeping ONE time without getting into trouble" is a good rubric for anybody.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:33 PM
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35

Surely retribution is not the point of the justice system

You're right, the point is to keep the black man in his place. Failure to issue any citation at all is definitely in furtherance of that goal.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:34 PM
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36

I'm sure Ray Allen understands "no harm, no foul".

What is getting these kids into trouble going to achieve, other than to waste a whole bunch of money and time and possibly fuck up the lives of the kids involved? That black kids are treated badly by the justice system doesn't mean the path of righteousness is to treat white kids equally poorly.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:38 PM
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37

With the caveat that I'm not really in favor of anyone being arrested ever, it certainly seems like a night in jail and 50 hours picking up rubbish along the highway would be about the best thing that could happen to these kids.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:39 PM
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38

37: I'd be happy with that.


Posted by: W. Breeze | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:41 PM
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39

36: You know, they probably frightened the hell out of that poor woman, and they did it out of stupid callous indifference to what anyone would feel like in her shoes (bedroom slippers? feet?) Maybe not jail time, but that seems like a very appropriate time to get some kind of record and some kind of consequence. Every dog gets one bite, but you want a record so you know about the first one when the second happens.

Also, 18-19? While young enough to be understandably stupid, not legally kids. Those are stupid adults.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 12:48 PM
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40

Right, some kind of minor consequence and a record that disappears after 5 years seems about right.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 1:01 PM
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41

36 and 39:

Accord to the reports, Shannon Allen was terrified, the kids were terrified, etc. They didn't know what was going on.

How many of us would like to wake up in the middle of the night with a stranger in our bedroom? I would guess: none. How forgiving would we be if they were just doing it "for fun"? I would guess: not very.

I live near a very sketchy person who has made trouble for various neighbors. If I heard someone in my house I'd immediately assume it was him, and frankly, I'd be in fear for my life.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 1:30 PM
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42

The problem with them not getting in trouble is that there isn't any incentive to change the system if only black kids get in trouble.

18-23 year old white kids = silly kids

18-23 year old non-whites = scary adults

Until we start treating white college students with the same i̶r̶o̶n̶ ̶f̶i̶s̶t̶ gloves that we use on black non-students, nothing is going to change.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 1:32 PM
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43

I once was voired for a jury that faced a 22-yr-old burglar, in a house at night while people were sleeping there. He was facing life without parole.

This is an extremely serious felony, even with no direct harm, because in many cases if the residents wake up, the best bet for the burglar is to kill the witnesses.

I did a lot of thieving, and cased joints for weeks watching for when people would be out. I would never ever enter a house with sleeping people. This is a very violent crime.

Nail these kids. 5-10 hardtime, 2-3 til parole


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 1:32 PM
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44

The poor Allen family will feel safer moving to Cleveland. Bob's sentencing guidelines seem harsh to me, but I would charge the numbskull trespassers with some crime and (at the very least) scare the bejeezus out of them. And bring a civil suit for damages.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 1:49 PM
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45

What damages? I mean, I think Bob is trying to out-bloodthirsty everyone, but I actually wouldn't be opposed to some jail time for them, so, yes, criminal prosecution. But there just aren't any substantial economic damages. Wear and tear on the carpets? Money for emotional trauma is hard to assess, and only very rarely available in the absence of anything concrete.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 1:54 PM
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46

They'll just have to hire a brilliant Unfogged attorney and figure it out.


Posted by: bill | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 1:58 PM
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47

44: I considered and rejected making one of my usual terrible jokes about this being part of Dan Gilbert and LBJ's plot to get Ray Allen to go to Cleveland.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 2:04 PM
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48

Class A felonies include murder, first degree kidnapping, forcible rape of a child under twelve years old, first degree robbery, and some drug crimes.

Class B felonies in Missouri include voluntary manslaughter and First Degree Burglary

For a class B felony, a term of years not less than five years and not to exceed fifteen years

Wildly underestimating the seriousness of this crime

I didn't know any cat burglars (sleeping people.) I didn't know any bank robbers either. Considered near-equivalent crimes.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 2:16 PM
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I did a lot of thieving, and cased joints for weeks watching for when people would be out.

Please do go on, bob....


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 2:35 PM
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50

49: Glad to. Part of rehabilitation

"I did a lot of thieving"

Got caught running out a back door with comic books when I was twelve. Paid for with apology.

"and cased joints for weeks"

didn't say I burgled, or even that any burgling went down, did I?


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 2:57 PM
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51

Ah. A less colorful story than I had hoped.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 3:00 PM
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52

They get to go back and tell all their stupid white college friends about this time they broke into a celebrity's house and nothing happened to them. Pour encourager les autres.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 3:08 PM
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53

Out here we have "plea in abeyance". If you don't have much of any record you often can plead guilty or no contest to a misdemeanor along with some stipulations like a small amount of time, or pay a fine, or do some community service. That along with no further violations for a year or whatever agreement you make with the prosecutor and the original charge will then get wiped out and not be on your record. It's likely they have something similar out in FL and it's perfectly possible to charge them with trespassing and not ruin their lives or spend undue amounts of time and money on crazy punishments.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 3:20 PM
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54

Will gets it right in 42.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 3:27 PM
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Yeah, I support something like 53 (or 37) but you can't get there, or, even to 28, without the police charging a crime. Without that, it's just the Allen family regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect . . .

45 -- $1 each, plus punitives (which wouldn't be much either, considering the likely net worth of the defendants) and the defendants' would incur legal fees, likely a sufficient deterrent to ever intentionally coming in contact with the legal system.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 3:53 PM
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This opinion was at that time fixed and universal in the civilized portion of the white race. It was regarded as an axiom in morals as well as in politics which no one thought of disputing or supposed to be open to dispute, and men in every grade and position in society daily and habitually acted upon it in their private pursuits, as well as in matters of public concern, without doubting for a moment the correctness of this opinion.


Posted by: Not Even Opinionated Chief Justice Taney | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 3:57 PM
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Well, actually, now that I've read what bob had to say, I've decided that they deserve 20 years at hard labor in the cane fields, where the life expectancy is only 9 months.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 08-18-14 5:46 PM
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They ended up charging the trespassers: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11384082/seven-people-charged-trespassing-ray-allen-home


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 08-21-14 11:46 AM
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