Re: It's Going To Be Subtle

1

The blue in the flag comes from the Scottish flag. I guess they don't think that's as specifically Scottish?


Posted by: David the Unfogged Commenter | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:29 AM
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If they can't restart cross-border cattle raids, I don't see what the point is.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:33 AM
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I don't remember consciously noticing the funny off-center thing about the Union Jack before, even though it looks really striking now that I know what I'm looking for. Weird.

But what about the name of what's left behind if Scotland leaves? "The United Kingdom of Little Britain and Northern Ireland"?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:51 AM
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I feel that somehow your comment is insulting to Wales.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:54 AM
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1: Yeah. Without St. Andrew's flag is just going to be St. George plus St. Patrick's, so it'll be a red star on a white field. I don't see the problem.

Of course, either way it goes, this is an excellent opportunity to add a badass Welsh dragon to the middle.

I'm more interested with the name of the rump state. I recommend the United Kingdom of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland.

3: This is a practical problem because one way you signal that you're in trouble at sea is to fly your flag upside down. A lot of people apparently don't know which way that is and routinely screw it up.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:02 AM
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And, err. 5.3 before reading 3.2. Reading comprehension doesn't start until lunchtime.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:03 AM
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Oh, and if just the diagonal red cross wasn't there, you'd get precisely the flag of Great Britain between the Acts of Union, including during the American Revolution. Not a bad flag but it looks a little flat compared to the modern one.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:12 AM
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Unless they decide to promote Wales and add the St David's Cross (yellow on a black ground). Since Wales has recently been retrieved from the debatable place to which it was consigned by the Laws of Wales Acts of 1536 and given a devolved assembly, this might be regarded as only fair.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:21 AM
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I watched John Oliver's explanation of the upcoming vote, and he does point to one key factor in the sudden popularity of independence -- the very existence of David Cameron.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:23 AM
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8: I'd say add the dragon instead of St. David's. Yellow and black is great but it just wouldn't go with the rest of the flag.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:23 AM
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Scotland gets independence, Wales gets promoted to Scotland, and Cornwall gets promoted to Wales.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:24 AM
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If you google image search St David cross you get a lot of crazy ideas proposing just that. It starts to look like the vomit-inducing Maryland flag.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:24 AM
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9 was me.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:24 AM
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If they perform badly do they get relegated in favor of some other territory?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:25 AM
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That's how Normandy got demoted to France.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:26 AM
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12: The problem is that white/silver and gold are both metals, so you can do a pretty simple color substitution of black for blue and gold for white until you figure out how you get the white of St Patrick's cross and the gold of St David's cross to interact. This seems closest but is still iffy.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:26 AM
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12. Like this? I think it's quite pretty. Acid helps.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:26 AM
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17- That makes me think swastika, I think because of the rotating red arms in the middle.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:28 AM
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Yeah, the blue background's from the Scots flag as well. It's a different blue, customarily - dark on the Union Flag, sky blue on the Scots flag - but that's the origin.

The whole "flying it upside down is a distress signal" is a myth, I think - it would be a really poor distress signal, because you can't make it out unless you're really close and the flag is flying straight out.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:29 AM
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It's easier to make out with an American flag.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:30 AM
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You could do this, substituting the remaining blue for black, although what happened to half of poor St. Patrick?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:30 AM
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They should keep the flag as-is, and change the national anthem to "Every Breath You Take" by the Police.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:31 AM
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St Piran's Cross* (Cornwall) is white on black. So it would be hard to make it visible.

* The Cornish don't just make up flags, they make up saints to name them after.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:32 AM
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21. The other half of St Patrick buggered off in 1920.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:34 AM
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Flyingn an ensign upside down as a distress signal is, or was, a practice. Might or might not be a British one. http://www.seaflags.us/signals/warning.html


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:36 AM
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I suppose it would be easy-ish to make out with a British ensign, just not the Union Jack. But, come on guys, we have an entire Maritime Code of Signals to help you with things like that. "I will keep close to you during the night" and so on.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:39 AM
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But the ensign(s) doesn't look like the flag. Or rather it only has the flag in the top left corner, so it's very easy to identify which way up it is.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:41 AM
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I suppose it would be easy-ish to make out with a British ensign

A bit of rum and you're there, I'd imagine.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:41 AM
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I don't know, this one has a nice sense of, "Put it right here in the middle, baby."


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:41 AM
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You could be in distress and not have maritime signal flags.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:42 AM
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28: The fact that you didn't say whisky is why Scotland is leaving the UK.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:42 AM
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Whisky, sodomy and the lash?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:43 AM
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Whisky, sodomy, and the caber.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:47 AM
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Whisky, sodomy, and the tawse.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:51 AM
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3: The United Kingdom of England, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Falklands, and Lots of Places, Really, Too Many to Mention. Gibraltar! Did we mention Gibraltar? And the Isle of Man, did we mention that?


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:57 AM
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This is all a bunch of pointless speculation. Fox News tells me most of Europe will likely be flying the ISIS flag by next spring anyhow.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:58 AM
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Speaking of which, I propose that the alliance to oppose ISIS be named the Alliance of Nations United to Battle IS.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:01 AM
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38

Does ISIS have a cool flag?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:03 AM
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39

Not bad. Kinda punk rock.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:04 AM
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40

Have they considered maybe having somebody with talent draw it more neatly?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:06 AM
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41

The first nation-state where every flag is a photocopy.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:09 AM
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I suppose it would be easy-ish to make out with a British ensign, just not the Union Jack. But, come on guys, we have an entire Maritime Code of Signals to help you with things like that. "I will keep close to you during the night" and so on.

pwned like seven years ago, ajay.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:11 AM
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43

That provides a fun exercise is reading a non-Latin language as the Latin letters it most closely resembles. All u di all. There's a similar thing with a bar here called People's Republic where they use Cyrillic letters that resemble Latin ones to make it look vaguely Russian but if you actually know Cyrillic the sounds are complete nonsense.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:11 AM
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44

43: you mean like Toys Ya Us?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:16 AM
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45

Right, here's the sign


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:25 AM
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46

39: "God is Muhammad's Prophet"? That's pretty bold, theologically speaking.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:25 AM
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43: I'm disappointed in the idiotic reactionaries of yesteryear. No evidence that they ever protested Toys 'R' Us for being a fifth column for the communists.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:27 AM
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48

46: In Soviet Russia.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:27 AM
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Maybe there was a kindergarten that prosecuted kids for writing theirs Rs backwards in the 50s.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:30 AM
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There's a similar thing with a bar here called People's Republic where they use Cyrillic letters that resemble Latin ones to make it look vaguely Russian but if you actually know Cyrillic the sounds are complete nonsense.

This doesn't work with cursive Cyrillic because everything just looks like "Huuuucuuu uuu B puzu uouum mouuu".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:30 AM
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That Welsh dragon flag really is the best. If Wales leaves the UK, they should add an element where the dragon is chewing David Cameron.

Alternately new country flags should go in for the trend of writing messages in artful, twee fonts "THIS FLAG IS THE NATIONAL BANNER OF SCOTLAND" in some kind of fancy Helvetica on a faded blue background.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:48 AM
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some kind of fancy Helvetica

wat


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:52 AM
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53

He's old and confused, Josh. Don't make fun.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:54 AM
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54

Right, here's the sign

Aargh. This kind of thing drives me nuts. Especially how it's done here, which doesn't even use actual Cyrillic characters. There's no "backwards k", and there's no "backwards l", or at least not looking like that. And it's not even internally consistent - why is the l in "republik" reversed but not the l in "peoples"? Also the e?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:57 AM
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51 sounds like about half of the state flags, especially the ones from the nineteenth century. (20th century flags are generally pretty decent; New Mexico and Arizona both did pretty well.)


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:59 AM
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56

Probably somebody should get the bar name standards commission on the horn.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:59 AM
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57

Hey, Massachusetts has its own naval ensign, turns out. Neat. We should get the Massachusetts Navy going again.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:02 AM
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Nebraska has its own Navy. Bob Uecker was an admiral in it for reasons that I can only assume were pressing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:04 AM
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Huh, turns out the states almost all adopted their flags much more recently than I had thought. Good on Rhode Island for sticking with theirs.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:05 AM
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60

But seriously, Montana should think about getting a grown-up to re-draw their flag.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:06 AM
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61

It's weird that Montana's flag looks like it's advertising Oregon Trail.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:09 AM
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60: They got all the colors right and stayed within the lines. What more do you want?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:13 AM
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At the least, we should go back to before the late 70s, when they wrote Montana on it.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:17 AM
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50,54 The opposite direction, Russian rendered with lookalike latin, is widespread


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:18 AM
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The ones at the bottom. I particularly enjoy Mesa.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:19 AM
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All the state flags that have the state seal in the middle should be redesigned. How many is that, 40? Obama won't have anything to do for the last 2 years of his term, he should make this his top priority. Big stimulus for artists and designers.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:24 AM
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64- That's really annoying, it's like the current MLB thing about Jeter getting Re2pect or what was the other stupid movie thing involving a random 3 in the middle of a word?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:44 AM
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68

67: Se3en?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:45 AM
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I believe I've spoken up for the virtues of the Maryland state flag in earlier threads.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:49 AM
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67: the third game in a series called "F.E.A.R." was written as "F.3.E.A.R", presumably pronounced "fthreear."


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:05 AM
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Once Maryland is restored to its true borders, it shall be the flag of "Delaware," "Washington, DC," and southern "Pennsylvania" as well!


Posted by: OPINIONATED MARYLAND IRREDENTIST | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:10 AM
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The Maryland flag is a good lesson in flags -- go big, go crazy, people will remember you. So much better than state seal on blue background.

The California flag demonstrates the power of other important flag principles: (1) stick a bear on there (2) make sure the bear is big and badass; (3) don't fuck around with accuracy, claim the max possible sovereignty for yourself and go for "California Republic." And that's why it's the best state flag.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:15 AM
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Nothing compares 2 all of U guys! Lets go for a 3peat on the cool examples.

Welcome to your language.

What I find pretty interesting is the hands-making-a-heart in photos, I think that's an emoticon promoted to the physical world.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:15 AM
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I recommend "Sons of Cresap" for the name of your terrorist group. (You'll have to photocopy your own flag, though.)


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:16 AM
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75

Missouri has no less than three bears on its flag, which may exceed the number of actual bears in the state. They fall down in the badass category, though.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:25 AM
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What's with Georgia? According to Wikipedia they've had eight different flags (all lame), not counting any they used during the Civil War.

Make up your minds, Georgians!


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:30 AM
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77

Virginia gets points for going all the way to "dude stabbing other dude" but loses points for state seal on blue background.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:33 AM
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I guess maybe it's a lady, and more of a post-stabbing trampling. Still pretty sweet though.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:37 AM
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77 Technically not actually in the process of stabbing. Though the "holding a disembodied penis in the off hand" thing is pretty neat.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:38 AM
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80

Maybe he's into that sort of thing.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:40 AM
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81

I mean, are we sure that's not Aristotle on the ground?


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:42 AM
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82

68- Maybe it was The 3 Muske7eers.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:51 AM
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83

With the gold and the black and the red and the white, the Maryland flag actually has the same colors as would the flag of the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:51 AM
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84

And the Channel Islands.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:52 AM
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85

Aren't the Channel Islands held in fief to the King of France? So, not part of the UK?


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:13 AM
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86

What I'd like to know is, what would the Queen's official style in Scotland become? By analogy I guess "by the Grace of God, Queen of Scotland and Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth"?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:14 AM
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87

And would she have to lose the II there?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:14 AM
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88

85: No matter who the guy on the bus says he is, there's no more King of France.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:16 AM
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85: No matter who the guy on the bus says he is, there's no more King of France.

How about the King of Spain?


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:19 AM
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90

85: They aren't part of the UK (along with Man), but I'm not sure what their official relationship to France is.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:22 AM
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91

85, 89 -- sort of. They're part of the Duchy of Normandy, and were held at least originally in that capacity. They probably have some different legal status now.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:27 AM
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There are three current pretenders to the French throne. One of them is Louis XX, which is more fun if you forget about Roman numerals.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:28 AM
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93

I'm pretty sure the Channel Islands are a personal protectorate of the royal family as successors to the Duchy of Normandy. Feudal law! Halford, you could treat with these guys and then eat a turkey drumstick while making your minions joust.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:29 AM
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91 - Pretty sure not, at an underlying level, although yes as a de facto thing. There was a whole to-do about this involving some billionaires trying to basically take over Sark. (Again, Halford, take lessons! "I shall conquer Sark" is good supervillain strategy, just feel how the words roll off the tongue.)


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:30 AM
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95

The current head of the House of Bonaparte works for Morgan Stanley while the head of House of Orléans manages a Burger King.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:31 AM
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96

"I shall conquer Sark"

I and the Sons ofGardes!


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:32 AM
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97

In the case of Andorra, which was established under the joint sovereignty of the King of France and the Bishop of Seo d'Urgel, Francois Hollande (pro tem. stands in for His Most Catholic Majesty on required occasions. But although Brenda holds the Channel Islands as Duke of Normandy (not Duchess), I don't think she has to go and swear fealty at the Elysee every time the French have an election.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:46 AM
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According to Wikipedia, the channel islands were originally part of the Duchy of Normandy but haven't actually been held in that capacity since the Middle Ages -- when the French Kings kicked the English ones out of Normandy, and abolished the Duchy in France, they signed a treaty allowing to English king to keep the Channel Islands as crown possessions but not part of the Duchy. So now the Queen formally reigns as the Queen in the Baliwick of Jersey and/or Guernsey (which is apparently called the "republique of Guernsey," formally, with the Queen ruling as the crown in right of the territory. Interestingly, they (and the Ile of Man) aren't not only not part of the UK, they're not part of the Commonwealth, either, but have a separate legal status of "Crown Dependencies" with different rules for relations with the UK and the Privy Council.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:46 AM
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99

I believe it was mentioned here a few weeks ago that the heir of the House of Habsburg was a game show host for a while.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:46 AM
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100

while the head of House of Orléans manages a Burger King.

I want to believe.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:54 AM
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98 is correct except that she also remains Duke. Hence, as I've mentioned before, the loyal toast in the two Bailiwicks: "The Queen, our Duke".


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:56 AM
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95. While the head of the House of Hohenzollern runs a company that "helps universities bring innovations to market". Minor German royalty are apparently still marrying each other as though nothing had happened.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:03 AM
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101 -- yes, but apparently that's completely inaccurate, she's not their duke, doesn't purport to reign over the channel islands in that capacity, and hasn't since 1291. So "La Reine

Figuring out the legal status of the channel islands and its government is kind of a lawyer's wet dream. I mean check out B">this weirdness Awesome! Presumably this is all mostly of interest now to lawyers who specialize in tax fraud.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:05 AM
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Minor German royalty has had a couple of centuries to get used to total inconsequentiality. Also, I invented the Burger King thing out of thin air. He's like 80-something anyway.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:05 AM
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103 was cut off. Apparently, "La Reine, Notre Duc" is still used as a toast in the channel islands. But, as a legal matter it seems to be completely, totally wrong, and has been so for centuries. The Queen doesn't herself claim to be Duke of Normandy anymore, and hasn't since either 1291 or 1801, depending on how you count. The English Crown arguably regained the capacity to be Duke of Normandy after Henry V and the treaty of Troyes, and the English kings claimed to be kings of France until 1801. Though, even then, that only made them dukes of Normandy to the extent that the Duchy of Normandy was a crown possession of the French crown, and, even during this period, the Duchy of Normandy no longer included the channel islands. And in any event the British Crown formally renounced its claim to a French title of any kind in 1801 and so no longer is Duke of Normandy in any conceivable capacity. So there's no formal sense in which the crown holds the channel islands in capacity as Dukes of Normandy, at all.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:16 AM
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I also hadn't really realized until I started this course of procrastination that the channel islands are barely "in the channel" (i.e., somewhere in the middle) at all, they're just tiny islands off the coast of France. Which makes sense, I knew the Germans occupied them in WWII, but I don't think I ever looked closely at a map.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:20 AM
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86: And will she be Queen Elizabeth the Second, or the more correct Queen Elizabeth the First?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:20 AM
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108

She rules the Isle of Mann as Lord of Mann.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:21 AM
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109

103. It's a little more complicated than that. As far as the French are concerned, there is no Duchy of Normandy. However, English and British monarchs formally retained their claim to the throne of France in right of Edward III until it became an (even greater) embarrassment when George III was sending armies and navies to support the restoration of the Bourbons (I think - it may have been until Charles II became a wholly owned subsidiary of Louis XIV, but anyway, it was a long time after Joan of Arc). Up to that point, English kings were crowned King of France in Westminster Abbey and could play make believe with French titles to their hearts' content. Hence the fictitious Duchy.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:21 AM
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110

109 pwned by 105.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:23 AM
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104: I figured, but I'm disappointed.

The main Romanov pretender and her family lives in a house in Spain; they apparently live as rentiers off of an inheritance from an American marriage in France (said American was killed in Buchenwald the day before liberation). Her son and heir's legal last name is "Prinz von Preußen."

The secondary pretender is a banker.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:24 AM
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109 -- right, I think we agree. The crown lost the duchy of Normandy in 1291, but kept the channel islands as crown possessions. There was then a (briefly not, but mostly) fictitious claim by the English Kings to be Kings of France (and, through that fictitious title, to hold the Duchy of Normandy) between 1420 and 1801. That claim to the French crown (and thus any possible claim to be Duke of Normandy) was renounced in 1801. So the claim to the channel islands hasn't rested on the claim to be Duke of Normandy since 1291, and there's been no even arguable claim to be Duke of Normandy since 1801.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:25 AM
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113

Our British and Irish commenters must be marveling, with a touch of envy, at an entire hemisphere ignorant of Bergerac.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:28 AM
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114

Perhaps Argentina should invade the Channel Islands as revenge for the Falklands.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:30 AM
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115

There exists a member of the Romanov family named "Prince Jackson Daniel Danilovich".


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:33 AM
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116

The Romanian princess who was arrested for running a cockfighting ring with a bunch of drunk hicks in rural Oregon was pretty great. Also her father, who was probably the only monarch to reign over a communist country, is pretty interesting.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:35 AM
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The Devil's Rock is a Nazi occult horror movie set in the Channel Islands during WWII. I watched it on Netflix for reasons that I can't recall.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:37 AM
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Link here. It may have been the greatest trip down the social class waterslide in history, from actual literal royal princess of a real country to white trash cockfighting ring organizer in zero generations.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:37 AM
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I still don't see what's the problem with cockfighting. Compared to all the other shit chicken get put through, it doesn't seem bad.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:38 AM
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As long as they keep it out of the schools.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:40 AM
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118, actually 1 generation. She was born after her father abdicated and had to flee.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:43 AM
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lawyer's wet dream

I've had occasion to cite art. IV of the articles of impeachment of the Earl of Clarendon, which dealt with those islands (and was one of the abuses addressed by the habeas corpus act of 1679).


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:44 AM
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118: You can tell she's royalty because she lives in a triple-wide.

Bizarrely, her sisters (at least the ones with Wikipedia pages) are more like the other deposed royalty mentioned so far.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:44 AM
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Huh, I hadn't known that one of the sisters of the triple-wide living cockfighting ring organizer princess (who btw is Queen Victoria's great-great-great grandaughter, same degree of direct relation to Victoria as Prince Charles) dated Gordon Brown. Wikipedia!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:52 AM
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I'm going to put the Burger King thing on there.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:55 AM
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Lola Montez lived in a Sierra shack with a pet bear. She was a countess.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:59 AM
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87 to 107.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:59 AM
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Her name was Lola,
She was a countess
With a shack up in the air
and some kind of a pet bear


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 12:02 PM
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It's funny, I'm trying to think of a one-or-two generation social class decline that's even comparable to Irinia of Romania and am coming up short. Are there any competitors at all? It's true that she was born after her father was forced out of the country but, still, princess. Most of the kids of former royalty (or for that matter very rich people, obviously) seem to do just fine, not end up living in trailers in Oregon running cockfighting rings. Can anyone think of anything?


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 12:19 PM
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Presumably if they happen, one rarely hears about them.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 12:25 PM
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Who could forget in 2001, when King Simeon of Bulgaria was elected prime minister.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 12:28 PM
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130 -- I guess, but you'd think that there would be at least a few other examples at hand. The big US fortunes seem to take a few more generations to collapse out (if and when they do), and I can't think of another royalty example.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 12:39 PM
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Perhaps Argentina should invade the Channel Islands as revenge for the FalklandsBergerac.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 12:43 PM
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So Princess Irinia of Romania may be the greatest fuck up in history, where "fuck up" or "success" is defined by how much you rise or fall in social status relative to the social status conferred by your birth. Interesting.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:11 PM
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And "in history" is defined as "shit Halford remembered off the top of his head"


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:13 PM
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Sure, but WHERE ARE THE OTHER EXAMPLES.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:14 PM
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This won't apply to any family that keeps their money (unless they disown the person); that's why it's heard to find American cases, since American high society is so closely tied to money instead of some intrinsic social standing. The Romanian case is unusual for them being so resolutely kicked out, in a way that didn't let them pillage the treasury first. I guess I'd look at other Eastern European royals.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:16 PM
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Like the Romanovs who didn't get out of Russia. They fell quite substantially in social class, unless you count having a fuckton of diamonds right up to the end.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:21 PM
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I guess to really judge the individual fuckupitude (or success) of a person, you'd really want something like an Wins Below (or above) Replacement Heir Expected Trajectory. But that's too hard to figure out, and in absolute terms of status loss (status at birth to status at death) Princess Irinia really has to be up there.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:22 PM
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No to 138. Being a deposed/executed monarch isn't a status loss in the same way; neither they nor Louis XVI had turned into white trash when they died. Pu Yi is a more interesting borderline case, I suppose, but I'm still inclined to give Princess Irinia the crown because her decline is so much obviously more self-inflicted.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:25 PM
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Yeah, social status conferred by birth drops in value when the money goes away. There are still connections and regard and all that, but it can't make up entirely.

Sure, but WHERE ARE THE OTHER EXAMPLES.

You're the one who's fascinated here, how about you find them, instead of going all absence of evidence.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:26 PM
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Well, I'm trying, but Google searching "biggest wastrels of all time" isn't producing results.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:27 PM
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Maybe it's Oregon's fault. Look what happened to Tonya Harding.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:27 PM
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You need to ask Siri to make a sensual connection to the biggest wastrels of all time.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:28 PM
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Louis XVII of France was a genuine prince in a castle from his birth in 1785 to his father's beheading in 1793, when he became both a King and a cobbler's apprentice/servant, and was allegedly abused. He was imprisoned in 1794, and died of tuberculosis in 1795.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:29 PM
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give Princess Irinia the crown

Thereby raising her status back up a bit?


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:31 PM
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145: That's not even enough time to learn how to make shoes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:33 PM
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147: It's that kind of negative attitude that has stopped you from becoming King of France all these years.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:34 PM
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I have a sense of impoverished minor European nobility as con man as a literary trope from the late 19th century on forward, but I'm having trouble coming up with specifics. There's a Hungarian in Pygmalion who fits that pattern, but I know I've seen it a lot more.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:34 PM
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Huh, it just struck me that some family members of a commenter here (not the commenter personally of course) may definitely be in the running for the US fuckup crown, though still not close to challenging Princess Irinia for the world crown.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:39 PM
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her decline is so much obviously more self-inflicted

A big part of the decline happened before she was born, see 121, but I think the comparison with her sister is revealing.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:39 PM
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There's the Dolphin in Huck Finn, but I don't think that's quite what you're looking for.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:39 PM
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152 to 149


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:40 PM
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The Fortunes of War features a chronically destitute Russian prince as a major character who is portrayed as getting through a combination of sponging off of friends and various shady quasi-legal activities.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:42 PM
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getting through = getting by through


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:43 PM
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Search for decline and gentry or aristocracy.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:46 PM
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Maybe it's Oregon's fault. Look what happened to Tonya Harding.

It's nice to have the occasional reminder that our provincial backwater is home not only to hipster wastrels but also to redneck trash. The Eurotrash element is just icing on the cake.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:47 PM
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There are three current pretenders to the French throne. One of them is Louis XX, which is more fun if you forget about Roman numerals.

Indeed, because then I can imagine Louis CK is one of the other two pretenders.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:51 PM
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And the third one is, of course, Chrissie Hynde.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:53 PM
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The Last Emperor of China fell pretty hard, according to a movie I saw once.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:53 PM
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140 to 160.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:54 PM
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Apparently his name was Pu Yi and I am owned by 140.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:54 PM
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158: Mix up your Latin and Greek and you can make him Louis the 900th.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:55 PM
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And owned again by 161. I should go home.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:55 PM
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The Fortunes of War features a chronically destitute Russian prince as a major character who is portrayed as getting through a combination of sponging off of friends and various shady quasi-legal activities

Prince Yakimov, with his miss-matched shoes, anticipating French comedy by 30 years, and Hispano-Suiza sports car.

I always wondered if his development into a competent journalist was meant to be a dig at journalism.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:55 PM
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163: I was thinking Louis the 100,000th.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 1:59 PM
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The Last Emperor of China fell pretty hard, according to a movie I saw once.

And evidently the Last King of Scotland didn't even live in Scotland.

But if they vote for independence, maybe he won't have been the last one after all!


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:01 PM
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Kebede and Boateng are just two of the many lesser-known royals who live in the Washington suburbs. They include King Kigeli Ndahindurwa V, who ruled Rwanda until his overthrow in 1961 and now calls Oakton home, and Iranian Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi, who lives in Potomac and runs an advocacy association that is outspoken about the need for democracy in his home country.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:04 PM
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I was thinking Louis the 100,000th.

Great, now I have "Louie Louie" stuck in my head, and I don't even know the words.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:07 PM
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Just like his ancestors.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:07 PM
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170 to 168.last.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:07 PM
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Maybe the wastrels are hard to find because we're looking at monarchies that fell in the 20th century. By then, the sample size had shrunk, most of the European monarchs remaining were of nation-states or large states, so there was more wealth per royal family they could loot (or be pensioned with). By contrast, in the 19th century, with the chaos of the Napoleonic Wars and then the unifications of Germany and Italy, some might have fallen very far very fast.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:15 PM
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I used to work with the Princess of an island in Lake Victoria. She taught math.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:19 PM
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And evidently the Last King of Scotland didn't even live in Scotland.

The British-Russian Princess Marie of Edinburgh, also known as Marie of Romania (of Dorothy Parker fame) didn't live in Edinburgh, but rather in Kent, Malta, and Germany, and even for a time in Romania. A bunch of her stuff is in a remote museum on the Columbia, downstream from where her trashy relative had the cockfighting ring.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:20 PM
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The princess of an island in a lake on an island in a lake probably has many employment options.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:20 PM
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One here's the occasional story of Cherokee princesses having fallen far.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:21 PM
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Wrong trajectory as she ascends rather descends, but the Princess Halm Eberstein is one of my favorite all time fictional characters. I think she just took over the novel from deep deep within Eliot and ends up being almost unbelievably appealing for an "unnatural mother." Daniel & Mirah seem damp before she arrives on the scene but after they're just plain old wet.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:23 PM
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I thought Marie of Romania lived her whole life after marriage in Romania.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:23 PM
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or hears.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:29 PM
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177: Daniel was about the least interesting titular character possible, wasn't he? If Gwendolyn was off-stage, I was bored.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:31 PM
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It's pretty impressive how until extremely recently, members of royal families mostly married members of other royal families.

Thomas, Duke of Genoa, died 1931. Married to a princess of Bavaria. Sister married to King Umberto of Italy.

Had six children. Four of them, including the last duke of Genoa (Eugenio, died 1996) were married to other princes and princesses.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:32 PM
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178: Huh, you're right. I thought she'd left, but she only left Bucharest to live in the countryside. Other things I didn't know about her was that she converted to Bahá'í.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:34 PM
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Didn't one of the dissolute heirs to Mellon fortune end up dead of a drug overdose in a gutter or something similarly wretched?

And let's not forget Patty Hearst.

Of course, these are run of the mill rich people, not noble blood.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:35 PM
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180: yes! Although I have a soft spot for crazy ass Mordechai.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:35 PM
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It seems like just about every heir to the Duke and du Pont fortunes ended up dead of a drug overdose in a gutter, based on various captivating magazine articles I've read recently.


Posted by: cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:36 PM
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There's a Samoan word that used to get translated as princess, and I knew a bunch of them. Given that it was a village-level title, though, princess probably wasn't the best translation.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:45 PM
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Hereditary Ward Captainess doesn't roll off the tongue.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 2:47 PM
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181.1: While reading up on the Romanovs, I discovered that their interpretation of Salic law considered all marriages with non-royals--even just regular nobles--to be morganatic and thus not valid for dynastic continuation. This is of present concern because the mother of the primary pretender was of a Georgian family that had formerly been royal, but might be considered merely noble after Georgia was incorporated into the Russian Empire. This may be a more general rule that applies to a bunch of other countries (but clearly not the United Kingdom). Man. The aristocrats!


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:04 PM
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She'd be Her Grace Elizabeth, Queen of Scots, I think. Not fid. def, that's an English title. (It's not like the Cth realms, where the monarch is a clone of the UK one, but rather it's a splitting out of the original Scottish title from the combined UK one.)

She doesn't use Elizabeth the Second in Scotland much anyway.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:07 PM
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OK, Halford, I nominate Queen Nazli of Egypt, who died penniless wrorking as a housecleaner in Los Angeles, having been stripped of her royal titles and dispossessed of her pension. She may not have sunk as low as Irinia, but she started higher.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:15 PM
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Hey you comic book nerds connoisseurs of graphic novels: Are the Elfquest books any good? Are they appropriate for a twelve year old girl?


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:24 PM
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Speaking of her Satanic Majesty, did you know that QEII becomes the longest-reigning English monarch on Oct. 20, 2015? That's right around the corner!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:29 PM
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191: I never got into them, but if they're not appealing to a 12 year old girl, I'm not sure who they're supposed to appeal to.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:30 PM
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Nice. 190 is perfect. I didn't read the link that carefully but I think it's her daughter, Princess Fathia, who had the roughest fall -- she started off as a princess (she's the little one with the bunny in the photo)married a commoner, provoked the ire of her brother the king by doing so, lost her fortune, had to sell off the mansion, and ended up as a cleaning lady in Los Angeles, was stripped of her titles, and then got killed by the no-good commoner, who was charged with manslaughter.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:33 PM
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I read some of Elfquest when I was a twelve year old girl (thirteen? fourteen?) off a similarly aged friend's shelves. They're crap, but probably harmless, although if you had strong feelings about retrograde gender roles (and maybe racism?) I'd give them a flip-through in the bookstore to make sure there's nothing that seemed fine from a 1980s perspective but looks weird now -- I wouldn't want to guarantee them as inoffensive based on a vague memory.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:37 PM
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But certainly when I read them I was the target audience. Elves! From Space! Riding wolves! That I think they're telepathically bonded to!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:38 PM
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I think it's her daughter, Princess Fathia, who had the roughest fall

Yes, I see you are correct.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 3:42 PM
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In my local cemetery there is a genuinely awesome tombstone listing several titles of nobility for the decedent, including prince of two different entities, principalities I guess. Before his royal entombment the guy was a suburban dentist, known to be an immigrant from Nigeria but otherwise unexceptional.


Posted by: Unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 4:05 PM
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||
Moby alert: What's the most likely cause of a horrible squeak and some effusion of smoke from a top-loading washing machine?
It's gotta be the belt, right?
If there's peels of belt-material all around the inside of the cabinet and it looks all torn up inside? Definitely the belt? Is it hard to change one?
|>


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 4:06 PM
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I have only repaired a front loading machine. Google the model number plus the symptoms. It worked for me.

But it is all about the belt.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 4:16 PM
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Once Scotland breaks away, North England should do the same and form a Northern Alliance with them.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 4:41 PM
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If you need a part, you can type the number into Amazon to get the part/destroy the independent retail sector.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 4:48 PM
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176. My wife is descended from a Cherokee "princess" (not that there was any such thing) and she hasn't fallen far at all, or so I claim. (Cherokee chiefs "married" multiple women, many of whom were not wives in the sense we use the term, but rather "people taken into the household.") This particular ancestor was an actual wife (or so Cherokee geneologies say) but she was Juliet-age when wed.

191. My memory of Elfquest is that it isn't appropriate for some 12-year-olds, but it's been a long time since I read it. Maybe "Mists of Avalon" (which has no pictures) would be better, depending on how much she likes to read words-in-a-row. But then MZB: child molester, but you can tell her that later.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 4:50 PM
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Once Scotland breaks away, North England should do the same and form a Northern Alliance with them.

THE SPUGGIES ARE FUCKING FLEDGED, BITCHES


Posted by: OPINIONATED BASIL BUNTING | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 4:57 PM
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Boy do I not think Mists of Avalon is appropriate for a 12yr old. I read in 8th... Kind of yikes.

What about pern books or a wrinkle in time?


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:03 PM
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If you're going in that direction it has to be Wizard of Earthsea, surely.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:12 PM
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What is the appropriate level of incest in literature for kids.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:15 PM
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When I read that the Queen would most likely appoint a Governor General for Scotland in the event of independence, I felt a little vicariously insulted - she spends enough of her time there, couldn't she do the duties personally rather than treat it like an overseas Commonwealth member? But I imagine the responsibilities would multiply, and I can't find anything saying she currently, for example, opens Holyrood every year like Parliament.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:19 PM
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But it is all about the belt.

'Bout that belt. No tub-ble.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:20 PM
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201: apparently the shetlands are in fact threatening to join norway if the vote turns up aye


Posted by: turgid jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:25 PM
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Since it's getting to GMT hours, I'd like to state preemptively that I am aware Commonwealth status is not the same as having QE regnant.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:26 PM
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206. Wizard of Earthsea, wonderful as it is, may be less good for a young woman than a young man. You don't encounter positive female role models until later in the series.

I remember my daughters reading MoA when they were in middle school and liking it, so YMMV.

207. Just as long as you stay away from Nabokov's "Ada" and "Flowers in the Attic."


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:27 PM
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HMQ already appoints Commissioners to carry out her duties in Scotland (and in the UK, for that matter). No reason that couldn't carry on.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:39 PM
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OT: I shall note for the record that TWYRCL will be on stage during this evening's America's Got Jesus Card-Trick-Doing Christ Are These Judges Absolute Imbeciles? Talent, exact time unknown.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 5:55 PM
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As long as it doesn't involve reading stories about way too friendly siblings.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:04 PM
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!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:10 PM
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No promises.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:11 PM
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Can your write me a note so my wife won't mock me for watching the show I mocked her for watching?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:15 PM
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205: I mean, I read the Pern books when I was that age, but in retrospect dragon-assisted rape was perhaps not the most age-appropriate material.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:17 PM
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Yes. Yes I can.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:17 PM
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Do you want specifically a fantasy-ish graphic novel, Knecht? (Anya's Ghost is lovely, but maybe a little on the nose for a 12-year-old. Maybe not though! Mouse Guard? Bone?)


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:17 PM
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Children should read the Chronicles of Narnia and I will fight anybody who mentions (i) The Last Battle, (ii) Susan or (iii) Neil Gaiman.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:20 PM
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Any twelve-year-old not already reading Tamora Pierce should start.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:21 PM
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Is she one of the violinists for Emily west?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:27 PM
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She's on viola. (They're all miming the violin part so their bowing doesn't look weird.)


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:28 PM
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Hooray for Lunchy!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:30 PM
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219: There's a subset that's less rapey, or at least that's how I remember it. And they're about a 15 year old girl. In terms of age-appropriateness, I discovered and devoured a bunch of Stephen King when I was 12, so I'm probably a bad judge of what's right for that age.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:31 PM
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I'm going to call my new band the Less Rapey Subset.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:34 PM
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Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword is a Newbery winner about a teenage girl who gets all sword-swingy and whatnot.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:36 PM
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Is she in more than one act? Sons of serindip also had back up strings.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:48 PM
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I don't think so, but they might have changed at the last minute. Several of her friends should be up there, though.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 6:48 PM
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Somebody should do a Pern book for very young kids. "If you give a person a psychic connection to a fantastic beast that is required to save your entire planet from thread..."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:01 PM
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233

But which thread??


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:06 PM
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234


||
Dear person from C()de for Amer/ca: in principle I am 100% supportive of your organization's mission, and I wish you every success. But your brash youthful irreverence makes me want to punch you in the face. I thank God I don't live in the Bay Area and have to deal with your kind every day, because I would punch someone in the face for real.
|>



Posted by: Presidential santa's helper | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:07 PM
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It is weird to me that If You Give a Mouse a Cookie is a canonical children's book. The weirdness is partially because it was published in my picture-book dead zone, when I was too old to be reading them myself but too young to be babysitting. But also because it is deeply... so what-ish. Not even irritating! It just lies there.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:10 PM
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The art does have charm, to be fair.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:11 PM
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To be unfair, the art is worse than Hitler.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:23 PM
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235 is wrong. Those books are irritating. I don't like the "then he'll want to"'construction and it doesn't really make much sense.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:27 PM
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I am willing to believe that I would find them irritating on extended exposure. I didn't even realize until I was looking into them online just now that there was more than one. Bleah!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:30 PM
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"If You Give A German Dictator The Sudetenland."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 7:37 PM
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234: those folks are so much less annoying than the startup bros they don't even register.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:14 PM
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227: well, I mean, I read most of late Heinlein at that age (plus all of Pern, plus McCaffrey's godawful romances, plus the pr0n story in her short-story collection) and it probably didn't do me too much damage. But I'd still be leery of giving even the Harper Hall books to a kid, 'cause they're gonna finish them quickly and then want to read other stuff set in the sane world...


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:20 PM
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That's why we have so many 'If you give X a Y' books.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:25 PM
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12 is right around when I was stumbling around into things like I Will Fear No Evil (yikes!) and the rapidly ramping up in raciness sequels to Clan of the Cave Bear. If you give a Jondalar the First Rites...


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:37 PM
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The reading Flowers in the Attic thing happened at my school in fifth grade (age 10) which seems pretty dang young in retrospect for that sexy bizarro incest. Everyone knew it was dirty though.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 8:50 PM
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I could imagine poet laureate Frankie Boyle telling people the vote was about the expulsion of England.

What will their official language be ?


Posted by: Econolicious | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:41 PM
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Pictish.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 9:42 PM
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234: I applied for and was quickly turned down for a position with them a couple of years ago. They seem a lot better than the Teach For group they apparently got named after.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 10:42 PM
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Re: 246

The Nats used to keen on gaelic, which would be harsh on the ~100% of Scots who don't speak it.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-16-14 11:57 PM
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Hey, it sort of worked for Ireland. (Actually it worked much better for Wales, but I assume the Scottish nationalists don't want to draw attention to that precedent.)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 12:00 AM
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It is interesting that the betting markets have decided so decisively that independence is a non-starter. One big firm is already paying out; another is limiting your bets to £195.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 12:04 AM
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Or not.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 2:13 AM
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Thanks. Good spot. They were only closing part of the betting, on the fixed odds section. Even on the exchange market, though, you can get 7/2 for a yes vote, which is where you bet against other interested parties.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 2:35 AM
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I think that the independence vote is obviously going to lose, so I'm not surprised bettors are betting against it. It's pretty tempting to tell a pollster "Yes" if you're abstractly in favor of independence, but I think when it comes to actually pulling the trigger on upsetting the status quo that much, many people will lose their nerve. The yes vote would have to have a much bigger polling lead for independence to seem like a likely outcome.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 2:48 AM
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I'm generally of the school of thought that if you read a book at age X and weren't traumatized by it, then it's probably fine for today's X year olds.

On the other hand, the books I read at a young age that contained sketchy material were things I discovered on my own. Recommended by a parent is a bit different.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 3:23 AM
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The interesting thing about Princess Irinia, I think, isn't so much the magnitude of the fall - it's the quality of the transformation, the cross-range rather than the drop. She didn't end up homeless or destitute, but integrated perfectly into redneck culture. In a sense, she became the woman Sarah Palin plays on TV, for real.

And after all, the notion of being a princess of Romania was pretty damn theoretical in 1947.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 3:39 AM
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The remaining interesting questions around the Scottish referendum seem to be:

i. Will the Scots be able to make Cameron keep to his pledges on devo-max, given the Cameron is an unconscionable liar with the morals of a cock-fighting organiser?

ii. If a mostly English majority vote to leave the EU, will there be enough residual feeling in Scotland for Holyrood to declare UDI on the basis of staying in?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 3:50 AM
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The reading Flowers in the Attic thing happened at my school in fifth grade (age 10) which seems pretty dang young in retrospect for that sexy bizarro incest. Everyone knew it was dirty though.

It occurs to me that 20 years from now, today's fifth graders will be talking about how they surreptitiously read mom's copy of Fifty Shades of Grey



Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 4:11 AM
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258: And people say that civilization is not in constant decline.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 4:13 AM
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227, 242: I read all the same stuff at the same age, and lived through it. I think you're kind of right about Pern, even the Harper Hall books (or at least the third one), though. As porny fantasies aimed at teenagers go, "Good sex is something that overcomes you without your control or your consent that you have no responsibility for," even in the contexts in the books where it's less on the rapey end of the spectrum, is about as pernicious as it gets.

On the other hand, it's not like there's all that much light reading out there that gives a healthy picture of sexuality.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 4:57 AM
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I was forbidden to read The Group because, my mother said, there was an unimproving description of copulation in it. She was right. But I never saw the point of the rest of it.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 5:35 AM
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Oh, hey, knecht, I put on a thin white cotton shirt this morning and then took it off again because even with a bra it was too revealing, but of course thought of you. Creepy sexual content comes from all corners!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 5:38 AM
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229 - I read McKinley's Deerskin a decade or two ago--it's pretty rape-centric, but certainly not in an approving or normalizing way.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 7:12 AM
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It is interesting at least that the polling position of Yes has gone up over time. In California it's common wisdom that an initiative needs to start out pretty persuasive and high up in the polls to win, since it drops in response to almost any opposition. Of course I imagine UK voters don't have nearly the referendum fatigue of Californians, which is also a factor.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 7:40 AM
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191 et seq: elfquest is actually awesome but you should make the effort to buy an out-of-print trade in black and white, there are four volumes up to the most major obvious stopping point and it's quite clear where that is. They've been digitally colorized and SO BADLY. really they're good though. compared to the dragonriders of pern 'sexual impulses are beyond my control' thing you have people who experience sexual compulsion (since they can only ever get pregnant by/impregnate one other elf, after 'recognition' of one another) but don't act on it violently in any way. the male hero is deeply frustrated at one point and one of his tribesman is like, 'just go for it dude, you know she wants it.' this latter thing is true, but the hero knows enough to know the heroine doesn't want or deserve to be raped either. even when he's challenged by his rival for her affections (her former lover and fellow tribesman) and wins, she still says that was just between them and it's up to her to decide what she wants to do with herself, and everyone's like...ok that seems fair. so: microscopically low on the rapey scale for 70s/early 80s fantasy, I can tell you what.

blue sword and the others are awesome. the pern books...eh they're bad like that but they have actual female protagonists that get up to cool shit and are in charge of the plot. I LOVED them at that age and really, does a little consensual BDSM hurt anyone's adult sex life? pshaw.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 7:50 AM
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I'm pretty sure I think of knecht 30% of the time I pick out a camisole, just in a 'hail fellow well met' way. here in the tropics we do a lot of transparent gauzy. I wear a lot of camisoles, dawg.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 7:52 AM
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244 made me giggle. Thirding or whatever recommendations of The Blue Sword and Tamora Pierce.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 8:43 AM
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264. I think it's mainly Cameron fatigue in Scotland. The "No" campaign had the sense to put up a Scottish Labour ex-minister as their front person at the beginning, because they knew Cameron was worth votes for the separatists, but they couldn't make him keep his trap shut.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 9:16 AM
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268: I watched one of the debates (the one in Kelvingrove) and I was surprised by how many personal attacks against Darling from the audience (and this was followed up with some more on a BBC Radio Scots programme the next day). It's especially intriguing because there were none against Salmond, even though he's much more likely to be in power if Yes wins than Darling would be if No wins.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 9:22 AM
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It is interesting at least that the polling position of Yes has gone up over time.

It is one of the few issues with bipartisan support.


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 9:39 AM
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re: 269

I don't live in Scotland, and haven't for a few years now. But, part of it may be to do with the fact that the public associate Darling and the last Labour administration with a lot of pretty vile things. Salmond's government has shown itself to be relatively successful, and he's been able --- at no political cost, because they aren't things he has any power over, anyway --- to successfully position himself to the left of Labour on some key issues. People feel pretty pleased, I think, about the lack of tuition fees, and free prescriptions, and free care for the elderly, and they associate [not necessarily correctly] opposition to those, and support for war crimes [correctly] with the Labour party.

FWIW, I'm not a Nat, and have never voted SNP.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 11:12 AM
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i. Will the Scots be able to make Cameron keep to his pledges on devo-max, given the Cameron is an unconscionable liar with the morals of a cock-fighting organiser?

Only if Scotland can credibly hold out the threat of a "Neverendum" scenario, where the question of powers and their division/devolution is never quite settled, and the prospect of another referendum is always just visible on the political horizon. In Canada, the province of Quebec made good use of the Neverendum dynamic for a good 20 years or so.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 7:35 PM
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258: "The Class of 2029 has never known a world without Fifty Shades of Grey"


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 7:54 PM
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271: thanks. I think it was mostly monetary stuff, which makes sense given him being ex-chancellor.

But clearly a complex scenario.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-17-14 8:50 PM
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