When do we get results?
About 0600 GMT on Friday.
Do they have math and computers over there?
Yes, we invented them.
Have we determined the consensus view among the Unfogged Scottish/UK wing?
I think Jacquard, who is French, should get credit for inventing computers. Maths were invented in India or something.
Do we know what role Mel Gibson will play if the vote is Yes?
Man, I was going to say 1.last. Mutatis mutandis.
Maths, like other torments of humanity (measles, mumps, smallpox etc) must clearly be plural. You can't have a mump.
Babbage was hella Scottish. Regular highlander, that guy.
A pock. It's smallpocks, because there are lots of pocks. (they leave pockmarks.)
I though Shakespeare said "A pox on both your houses" but apparently he said a "plaque". I guess he wanted them to have bad teeth.
Maybe he meant the kind that produces brain lesions.
Yes, you know, one of those blue ones that says "ROMEO MONTAGUE born here 1581".
7: for consistency, Americans should also refer to "physic" rather than "physics".
Votes are counted by hand however. There's considerable public resistance to computerised voting. Not because people don't understand computers, but because they understand them all too well.
Consistency being a hallmark of our shared language.
The short answer is that I don't think we have determined the consensus of the Scottish Unfogged contingent. I'd vote NO if I had a vote; don't know about the others.
re: 3
I'm a No, but I'd favour devo-max* and also a more federal UK in general, with more power for the English regions, and a number of other constitutional changes.
My wife is somewhat disgusted with me on this issue. She thinks I should be 'Yes' on general, 'Who the fuck knows how it might turn out, but wouldn't it be cool?!' reasons.
I can't vote, anyway, living as I do in London.
re: 8
Pox is plural, no? In etymology, if not in usage. Plural of 'pock'.
* basically independence as part of a federal UK, with a few shared top-level institutions/policy areas: central bank, foreign policy, military.
18: that's what I would have guessed. I'd be for devo-max too.
ATTENTION: the "Q. Are We Not Brits? A. Yes, We Are Devo-Max" joke has been made on this site several times already.
Pox is plural, no? In etymology, if not in usage.
In etymology, certainly. Webster's gives the plural as either pox or poxes.
Americans, like mumps, measles, maths and pox, are also plural, but I think it's a bit cruel of you to make the comparison.
I can't really justify it and don't live there, and I think it's unlikely, but I'm rooting for independence. It would be an awesome thing, even if it's the wrong thing.
She thinks I should be 'Yes' on general, 'Who the fuck knows how it might turn out, but wouldn't it be cool?!' reasons.
Interestingly, this was also the rationale of Democratic supporters of the invasion of Iraq.
I mean you can't beat the middle fingers in the air, fuck you posh English dickheads part of it.
Has anyone linked the Karl Sharro explainer on the Scotland referendum? Yes? Too bad, here it is again:
http://www.karlremarks.com/2014/09/we-give-scottish-independence.html
re: 27
I do get the emotional appeal of it, and I do suspect that if independence does come, it won't be the disaster that a lot of the 'No' campaign* say it will be.
* who have generally campaigned like a bunch of wanks, tbh.
If my ancestors hadn't gotten kicked out of Scotland four hundred years ago, I'd vote no. Of course, a lot of other things would probably be different, too.
Stupid question, maybe. But how does the timeline work if Yes wins? Is there a Constitution, laws, etc already queued up and ready to launch? Will there be a transition period?
My dad's been working the phones for the No campaign and reports that the responses fall into six categories:
1. Voicemail.
2. "I'm voting No".
3. "I'm not telling you how I'm voting."
4. "I'm voting yes because I want Trident out of Scotland."
5. "I'm voting yes because of the posh twats" - the idea of Boris Johnson becoming PM has come up a lot in this context.
6. Senile dementia.
25 is why I would probably be a "no" voter if it came down to it. (That and Krugman.)
31 - first they need to issue a bucket of blue paint to every able-bodied male.
31: that is a bit unclear. There isn't a constitution ready to go. Declaration of independence is tentatively planned for March 2016. There will need to be a lot of stuff happening between now and then; division of assets, the currency issue, negotiations with the EU, negotiations with NATO and so on.
re: 31
The current Scottish government has some proposals. They don't make much sense. There will be a negotiating period. Possibly Tory MPs might make it really difficult. No-one really knows.
It's complicated because the UK parliament and the EU basically don't want to show any of their cards and want to stoke maximum fear, for fear of helping the 'Yes' campaign.
The only times I've ever come close to YES is when I hear some overbearing English type explaining what a disaster independence would be. Then I feel like declaring independence just to show him.
re: 37
Yeah. I feel the emotional pull of 'No Tories!' but yeah. Some of the worst emotional reactions [provoked in me] have been by people I consider friends, or am at least generally sympathetic towards politically. Because there has been a current of, probably unconscious, condescension that makes the hackles rise.
'Look at the wee Scots, and their stupit ideas.'*
* even though the ideas are indeed, some of them, 'stupit'.
I'm mildly "no", but mainly for selfish personal reasons, and I'm quite sympathetic to the "yes" arguments. I do think the pros are underestimating the downsides, or at least the risks, of a split, either deliberately or naively.
By which I mean if I actually had a vote, I'd probably be a "yes".
I adore the "Yes" campaign's fantasy of transforming the pasty, belligerent, drunk Scots into the fair, fit and public-spirited citizens of a Scandinavian welfare state.
I'd vote "No" based mostly on sentiment and the fact that it's personally inconvenient. CHANGEBAD plus "don't fix what ain't broke" fill out the rest of my reasons for choosing union over independence.
I'm going to guess I'm not the only US reader who feels 37 and 38 ring a bell with regard to a lot of our own political arguments.
If yes wins, I vote we start referring to England and Wales as 'topless Britain'. No 'enlightened', because Scotland takes that as part of the deal.
Regardless of the outcome of today's voting, it seems like tomorrow would be a good time to remember James Connolly's sage advice to his fellow Irish liberationists:
If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.
31 - first they need to issue a bucket of blue paint to every able-bodied male
It takes a surprising amount. I know I've related my attendance at the 1980 LCB--must have been one of the last--painted blue all over. I justified it to myself because it made admission free, which is characteristic. Also girlfriend wanted us to show off as a couple.
I'd vote no, but hope Whitehall is scared.
The maths (all of them) were invented in Iran.
re: 41
Both currents are, I think, real within Scottish society. I think English friends who go with 'You are just like us, you just mistakenly think you aren't.' are wrong, actually.
No will win, I think. I would vote No although the worst possible outcome for Scotland is surely a No vote followed by a UK-wide referendum deciding to leave the EU. Then the poor bastards are marooned in the Atlantic with us for company, which is probably even worse than being adrift out there without us. But imagine the choice between rule by Boris and rule by Alex Salmond! Then grab the nearest bottle of Crawfords unleaded and drain it.
Parenthetically, the tasting notes on that! The only reason anyone ever drank it was because it was the cheapest rotgut in the bar.
But imagine the choice between rule by Boris and rule by Alex Salmond!
I don't think that's a fair comparison, actually. Salmond might be a bumptious smug wee prick, but he is, actually, quite a competent politician. His two administrations have, as far as I can tell, done a decent if non-spectacular job on most things. He is also, as far as I can tell -- for all that he is prepared to talk a lot of shite to win the vote, and stoke the 'Braveheart' bullshit -- quite genuinely committed to the whole small-nation civic-nationalism thing. Which may [viz. Alex's blog] be stupid, post 2008, but it's not as repugnant as Boris's core beliefs.
18 and 24 are both right. And 39, except if I had a vote I'd vote no.
The US analogy is interesting. What if the Northeast, or the West Coast, left the US? (as in the old United States of Canada/Jesusland map.) It'd be pretty nice for those of us in the blue areas, but it'd be pretty bad for the world.
48: On the "you aren't just like us", how much does that apply to Northern English? My impression is that there are real differences between Glasgow and Manchester or Newcastle but they're smaller than the differences between the latter and the South of England.
re: 52
Yeah, that's probably right.
the worst possible outcome for Scotland is surely a No vote followed by a UK-wide referendum deciding to leave the EU
And that would be horrific, yeah.
Pretty horrific outcome for rump-UK as well.
51: It'd be pretty nice for those of us in the blue areas, but it'd be pretty bad for the world.
Why would it be bad for the world?
51
Secession: How Vermont and All the Other States Can Save Themselves from the Empire Paperback - April 1, 2008 Thomas Naylor and Kirkpatrick Sale
Why would it be bad for the world?
Presumably because rump-USA would be much more conservative and even more militaristic.
55: I'm assuming that the redder rump state would, despite being poorer, be more willing to project its will on the world militaristically. I guess that's debatable as there's a lot of centrist Democratic hawks from blue states.
The trouble with those (not here) talking like Scottish leftism is inherent to the nation - so easy to see a pattern over 20 or 40 years and get the impression it's indelible, when it's actually highly contingent and there's no guarantee it will continue. (Same wrong instinct with New England, California, etc.)
I'm idly curious, if independence happened and once constitutional issues were all over with, what domestic politics would look like. Would SNP be center-right in the Scottish window?
the redder rump state
A nation of baboons?
ttaM, would you rather a politician up the arse of Donald Trump or one who'd put his arm round his shoulders? There's an argument that Boris has been a perfectly adequate mayor of London, too.
I do think that Salmond is in his private life morally superior to BJ. That's another thing he has in common with Hitler.
18: I never understood while the Welsh parliament's powers were so wimpy. I mean, they united with England much earlier, so I guess that the national identity is less. But there are quite a lot fo Welsh speakers which might lend them to have a strong national identity.
62: Wales came in more as conquered territory than as an equal partner. My understanding of the legal details is weak, but it's not just that it happened long before 1707, but on totally different terms.
The thing that sort of pisses me off (and I don't have a right to an opinion) is this we want to be a separate country but we want to keep the Pound. I feel like saying that they should get their own currency or join the Euro.
Kevin Drum saying that you're dead right, Scotland should have its own currency as a protective measure. Small countries need to be able to control their own monetary policy or you get things like what happened to Greece.
The thing that sort of pisses me off (and I don't have a right to an opinion) is this we want to be a separate country but we want to keep the Pound. I feel like saying that they should get their own currency or join the Euro.
But you can see why it's such a tempting prospect to use a currency that you have no control over, from the experience of all those Eurozone countries that will never recover economically because they can never experience inflation.
I have an emotional antipathy to British/English nationalism that on the one hand makes me want to cheer on the Scots who are attempting to get out from under our control, and on the other quite afraid of what happens if we try for more self-determination by leaving the EU ourselves. I need to think this through more - what actually would be the consequences if the UK, rump or whole, were to leave? I just look at UKIP and have a gut feeling that it would be baaaaad.
I was going to make a joke about how independent Scotland should adopt Bitcoin as its currency, but Googling reveals that a number of people have seriously proposed that.
Actually, now that I think about it, the idea of "independent Scotland with Bitcoin as its official currency" is no more an insane idea than "independent Scotland".
I started out thinking it was a really bad idea, but I seem to have come around to favoring Yes. Self-determination and whatnot.
Krugman is right about the currency, though. Leaving the UK but keeping the pound is madness.
Speaking of Kevin Drum, I know that unfogged is dedicated to the CHANGEBAD motto, but would anybody interested in updating the sidebar to reflect the fact that Kevin Drum is at Mother Jones and not the Washington Monthly?
Scotland should stay the fuck away from Bitcoin. But issuing its own digital currency, backed up by a central bank, would be an interesting way to go. Ecuador is about to do that.
Geez, next you'll want them to remove "Cobb" and "Listen Missy" and all the other ones that haven't published since 2007.
62: Wales came in more as conquered territory than as an equal partner. My understanding of the legal details is weak, but it's not just that it happened long before 1707, but on totally different terms.
Yes, it's partly because they could get away with offering less (Plaid Cymru was a lot less of a threat to Labour than the SNP in 97), and partly because the starting points were very different. England and Wales had a unified legal and education system. England and Scotland didn't.
My theory is that the small European nations and France should band together, invade Germany, and inflate the hell out of the Euro while destroying Frankfurt. Sweden could invade from the North, Gustavus Adolphus style.
And then you'll want to delete the links to blogs that don't even exist anymore, and the "Recent Comments" sidebar will vote for independence, and WHERE DOES THE MADNESS END????
Scotland should stay the fuck away from Bitcoin. But issuing its own digital currency, backed up by a central bank, would be an interesting way to go. Ecuador is about to do that.
This would have the bonus of really pissing off the goldbug/bitcoin types by making negative interest rates viable.
57,58: Oh, sure, they would be much more conservative and militaristic, but so much poorer, as well as having a strong isolationist streak. The New Confederate States of America would not be pushing anyone around.
Also, a lot of their military industrial capacity will be located in another country. And their West Coast ports will be in Alaska. In the East, a lot depends on who gets Norfolk.
I know they're conservative, but there's just no way Alaska joins the confederate states over independence.
It was surprising to us when we were in Shetland in June how many people spontaneously asked what we thought, and that they all really wanted to have a substantive chat about the referendum, they weren't just nattering about it. Coming from the land of endless ballot measures, it was very different.
Just to be clear, "the land of endless ballot measures" is California, not the other 49 states.
Shetland is threatening to break away from Scotland if the vote is "Yes". Whether they would reunify with England or join Norway I'm not clear. I know what I'd do.
Does Shetland have all the oil or just ponies?
I too have been curious about Minivet's question in 59. Also this: how much difference does it make that expats can't vote abroad? Do they lean significantly one way? There sure are a lot of them.
My family over there AFAICT are all leaning "no" although I guess my one cousin can't vote because she's living in Leeds? Her sister is up in Edinburgh and my uncle is in Livingston.
76: Well, we could keep the washingtonmonthly and Kevin Drum. I kind of miss Drum's successor.
Many sweaters, much ponies, plentiful Paleolithic ruins, lots and lots of public swimming pools (see oil revenue). Norway was mentioned in every one of the conversation.
I've gotten into the habit of googling "Scotland independence polling" to get the Wikipedia page with the latest results, and recently one of the autosuggestions that pops up is "Scotland independence next poll".
Shetland > Iceland y/n? Not that I'm likely to visit either any time soon.
Iceland likely hipper, Shetland was amazing though.
86: Unless Fair Isle secedes from the Glorious Hjetlandian Republic. Dunno why Orkney wouldn't want to go with Shetland--they have the big refinery/processing center at Flotta.
90: We were in Scotland a few weeks ago. We couldn't make Shetland work, alas, but Orkney (where we'd been before) and the Western Isles were both amazing. Rural Scotland in general is lovely, and the Norse and Gaelic bits particularly so.
And finally, perhaps Edinburgh Evening News cartoonist Frank Boyle is not the same person as comedian Frankie Boyle, but the former doesn't have a Wiki, so I'm going to assume they are one.
RPF is a weird weird phenomena.
Sorry, wrong thread.
but the former doesn't have a Wiki … pedia entry.
FTFY!
I've been to Orkney AND Shetland, bitches. The Faroes too. A long time ago. I'd happily get a second home in the Shetlands when my billions come in.
100: Not gonna lie, I've been trolling through Scotland real estate sites.
92: is that a comparison or are you trying to redirect Shetland's independence movement via the shell? In which case, Iceland would probably prefer '>>'.
FTFY!
Thank you! I honestly have no idea how that happened. I sometimes skip to future clauses and sentences as I write.
Come to think, I have a vitally important wool delivery coming in from Scotland. How is independence likely to affect yarn supplies?
We left Scotland today. It still seemed really up in the air, though some of that might be from having been on Islay (as the whisky industry as a large leans no), but even our married B&B hosts didn't agree. (Somewhat amusing - native Ileach was voting no, Irish husband yes.)
Add us to the list of people eyeing property in the islands - would kill for a holiday home there.
105.last: I have a list of options.
105.first: The Irish are known for their love of the English. Despite the polls, Yes signs were everywhere we went; there were only a few places No visibly dominated (a village on Lewis, and along the A9 south of Inverness.)
105.last: This is the one that caught my eye. I pointed it out to my wife from the ferry and she's up for it for when we hit the big time.
We left Scotland today. It still seemed really up in the air
First spindizzies, then freedom!
107: I left out the part where he'd lived and worked in England since age 10 or so. Couldn't think of an easy way to summarise.
We saw far more No signs than Yes signs, but I suspect we spent most of our time further south than dalriata.
Apparently the blog doesn't like ascii hearts. 108 is awesome.
107.last: Very nice. I think Orkney is farther north than I could deal with.
We were in Edinburgh and didn't see any No support there, either. It was during Fringe, and before the Yes-ahead poll so perhaps the Nos realized they have to actually make some noise.
Could be the areas you were in, too. Stockbridge was coated in No signs, and I assume that's in part because the richer and older you are the more likely you're to vote no.
Could be the areas you were in, too. Stockbridge was coated in No signs, and I assume that's in part because the richer and older you are the more likely you're to vote no.
How about this place. Probably super not warm but whatever, why are you in Shetland to begin with. Only 190,000 pounds which is like what, $315,000? Who's in it with me for the ultimate remote lair.
Also it's on the Island of Yell which (a) is an island in the middle of the ocean literally called "Yell" (b) according to Wikipedia is huge and has a population of 915.
117: And not just Yell, but Mid Yell. It's like, YOU CAN TAKE OUR LIVES BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE OUR FR—oh hey, that looks like a nice place.
If anyone from unfogged buys a place on the Island of Yell, I'm glad to come be your knitting consultant. I'd even be willing to learn to spin.
115: Mostly Old Town. Because tourists.
116: Want.
The best part of owning land in an independent Shetland is that you could presumably get a license to do some modern and progressive Viking raiding. That oil money isn't going to last forever.
I think Krugman is wrong about the currency issue. Scotland's economy is tightly integrated into England's economy, much more tightly integrated than Germany and Greece, so it doesn't face the same risks from using the pound that European countries face using the Euro.
I wonder about the control issue as well: It's better to have some say in your currency than no say, but how much say does Scotland really have now?
I think Krugman is wrong about the currency issue.
Stiglitz is also skeptical.
121: There is something called the East Caribbean Dollar. It's the currency of 8 small states in the Caribbean and is fixed to the US dollar. They seem to do okay with a pegged exchange rate.
And symbolically, the Scots ought to come up with a new currency and peg it to the British pound, if they want to abdicate responsibility for monetary policy.
I just found out that the man who was a priest at the church I went to as a kid just came out for Yes in the Guardian.
I'd vote Yes, but then I'd have voted Oui in Quebec in the 90s. If I'd, you know, been a member of that polity.
123: Wouldn't that mean that they wouldn't be able to run budget deficits? Or devalue? If you want to have a high-service, high-cost government in a country that depends upon exports that seems iffy.
I'd vote for Vermont independence too, but then I'd be worried that Quebec would try to annex it.
If they do come up with a new currency, they should call it the Sterling Pound. 'cause it's their city and all.
Some former colony in a desert should have the Pound Sand.
126 -- Me too, but I'd call doing so reclaiming the independent republic, to spite Texas. And California's flag.
I'd vote for Vermont independence too, but then I'd be worried that Quebec would try to annex it.
YOU MEAN "ONTARIO" THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
125: If they peg to the pound, then they can't independently devalue, but their economy is sufficiently correlated with England's that most of the time when they would want to devalue, England would want to devalue as well.
As Greece demonstrated amply in the 2000s, not having your own currency is no obstacle to running a deficit.
They should call the currency the dong because why should Vietnam get all the fun.
If they peg to the pound, then they can't independently devalue
Well, it does give them one solid "release the peg" play, which is always a nice thing to have in their back pocket.
133: Make that "they can't run a consistent deficit if they don't want their economy to go to shit."
The trouble with those (not here) talking like Scottish leftism is inherent to the nation - so easy to see a pattern over 20 or 40 years and get the impression it's indelible, when it's actually highly contingent and there's no guarantee it will continue.
Fair enough, but my impression is that Scotland has been pretty leftist for as long as we've had leftists. James Maxton, Keir Hardie, Ramsay MacDonald, Red Clydeside and so on. I don't think you'd be able to point to a time when Scotland was definitely politically to the right of England.
If they peg to the pound
Snerk.
one solid "release the peg" play, which is always a nice thing to have in their back pocket.
SNERK.
137: No, but it looks like there were long periods of time Scotland was no more to the left than the rest of the UK.
Looking at party with highest % of popular vote in Scotland vs. UK-wide:
1945: Labour 47.9%; Labour 47.7%
1950: Labour 46.2%; Labour 46.1%
1951: Conservative (with Unionist) 48.6%; Conservative 48.0%
1955: Conservative 50.1%; Conservative 49.7%
1959: Labour 46.7%; Conservative 49.4%
1964: Labour 48.7%; Labour 44.1%
1966: Labour 49.9%; Labour 48.0%
In the 70's it gets less comparable because the SNP becomes a significant party.
137. Is it really the case that Scots leftism isn't like the sort of union "leftism" we often get in the states, which is about protecting their jobs and oppressing the out-groups?
(Intended as a serious question, not a troll, btw.)
Are there a lot of people who should be fired from the job of "Scotsman", but hang on because of contracts with corrupt politicians?
141: well, no TRUE scotsmen.
The wait is frustrating. With math and computers we'd know by now. Is everyone in Scotland up drinking until 6am tonight?
"How is this night the same as every other night?"
Clackmannanshire votes No. It's crazy to have almost 90% turnout.
147.last: nor in australia... well from one direction
Another 45 minutes till someone else declares and we can all stop pretending to care about Clackmannanshire.
"Chibs," the somewhat randomly Scottish character on Sons of Anarchy, votes Aye.
No in Orkney! By 67% to 33%!
Good old Orkney.
149: you're in luck. Orkney voted No, 67%, 83.7% turnout.
Just to say that I am not going to sleep any time soon as I am just to the left of the Andes this week, so it's still quite early.
Do we now have to pretend to care about Orkney?
156: I really do care about Orkney. It's a great place, they have carnivorous sheep, their own dialect, and three trees, all leaning well to the northeast (away from the prevailing wind).
Also Scottish leftism / nationalism is pretty obsessively non-in/out group-y, obviously not perfectly because who is, but still.
Will there be live coverage of people burning shit down, or should we just check the news in the morning?
Nah. They were expected to go No and they're all the smallest council area.
I can't tell if this is a joke. If it is, it's not very funny. If it's not it is possibly the stupidest analysis of all time.
157: I love it there too. There isn't a single tree there that isn't within ten meters of a building. It doesn't have the terrain relief of the rest of the highlands but the culture's great and unique, there's endless history and it's beautiful in its own way.
Oh yeah this is all quite speculative until the big urban booths come in. Still, the trend is looking Really Bad for Yes.
161: it's a joke. They should be focusing on how much healthier the rUK would be.
This vote needs more media spectacle. Why am I not seeing a hologram streaming live vote counts to my phone?
166: have some more Highland Park, Korea's finest Scotch.
Contrary to what you'd expect given the name, it isn't actually made in the highlands. It's from Detroit.
The wife had some Ardbeg. Still not sure if I love it or think it's foul smelling stuff.
I've been working my way through a bottle of this incredibly good value Scotch. $20/bottle!
but then I'd have voted Oui in Quebec in the 90s.
I really doubt that you would have. Had you been a member of that polity.
Let's not be hasty now. Scotch is scotch.
Something I am confused by: a bottle we bought in the UK is 70cl. A US bottle from the same distillery is 750ml. Both seem to be standard. Any idea why?
Well, those are British Centiliters. Slightly larger than the regular ones.
Well, those are British Human Centiliters. Significantly more horrifying than the regular ones.
Hmm. Blended cheap-ish Scotch, or expensive single-malt not-actually-from-Scotland single malt whisky, from Japan? Each sends some kind of a message, I suppose.
I have some Fernet. Free Italy and/or the Mission!
Blended, cheap Canadian sends a more clear message.
I have some grappa con ruta, I guess I can do something regretfully?
"I'm on the wrong side of increasing economic inequality," it says.
I'm in a bar, but I don't know if they have grappa. How would that sit on to of a reuben?
What, like if you poured it on top? Probably not well.
It's in my stomach, along with cole slaw (because it's closer to being an actual vegetable than fries).
If your stomach can deal with the grappa, adding a reuben's probably not going to make things any worse.
Speaking of which, I guess I am now officially lactose intolerant. That's what I get for flaunting my lactose privilege all these years, I suppose. Sucks. I really like many dairy products. And this is the midwest! They're pretty fucking hard to avoid. Sigh.
I have Lagavulin, Laphroiag, Highland Park, and Yamazaki. I guess I could make my own blend?
No grappa. I'm not going to ask about Fernet because I'm pretty sure that's anise-flavored.
It's like they say, "Grappa then Reuben, your name is Steuben. Rueben then Grappa, keep an eye on Orkney."
It is not anise-flavored! It's kind of like a minty pine forest, but no anise.
I cannot believe we failed to put in scotch for this occasion. I guess I'll have some... bourbon?
Not looking good for an independent Scotland.
I am now officially lactose intolerant
What, did you get a stamp? Anyway, it's not so bad. I'm pretty intolerant but can have some sheep and goat milk cheeses, and soy milk is everywhere, and if you really can't avoid cow's milk cheese, you can pop some lactaid pills and not worry too much about it. You will come to notice just how much stuff gets bathed in cheese, however. There's no reason for that! (Well, except that it's relatively cheap and filling.)
'm pretty intolerant
Also to lactose!
184: Depending on severity, cheese (esp hard cheeses) and yogurt are often OK for people who are lactose-intolerant. For everything else, there's Lactaid. Lactose-free milk is kind of odd, though. It's a little sweeter than normal, so it tastes funny to me both by itself and in baked goods.
191: to celebrate the head of the House of Bourbon-Orléans's Burger King franchise management.
Yeah, I had a yoghurt parfait the other day that seemed to help somewhat. And some cheese doesn't seem to be as problematic. But my doctor has been bugging me to go vegan for awhile now for my general health, so I probably should.
I have always been a big fan of goat chevre too. There's one cafe nearby that makes grilled goat cheese sandwiches that are incredibly tasty.
5 councils out of 32 declared, all "no", 77k to 64k at present.
Well, that's completely out of date now - Dundee (Yes) and E Renfrewshire (No) just declared.
199: Nothing is chevre like a goat chevre, amirite?
168.2 Wait, since when do you have to choose between these two things? Half the stuff I like smells, you know, interesting.
We were given a bottle of Fernet a couple of years ago by a somewhat clueless out of town guest, I suppose on the basis of living in SF? Truly mind-blowingly foul stuff. It sort of lurked in the cupboard for a bit out of a sense of social obligation, then got the boot.
Why is the football game somewhere Mexican?
Fernet is so good! I have 1/2 a bottle downstairs, and have lobbied successfully for its addition to the roster at several local bars.
Why is Tampa sucking so very, very much.
I love Fernet. I go through it pretty fast when I have some. I like most other Amaro, too, but I like Fernet the most.
Gerard Depardieu says he drinks up to 14 bottles of wine a day, with Champagne for breakfast. Time to restart the Auld Alliance.
Time to restart the Auld Alliance.
No can do. Depardieu is a Russian citizen these days.
Fernet is really good. Like other bottles in the same part of the store, but without any sugar. (and with a mysterious menthol taste)
I got addicted to Fernet & cola. Apparently it's huge in Argentina.
323k NO to 285k YES! Still a long way to go...
Can someone explain to me what are the major factors in why one part of Scotland is more pro-independence than another part? It's hard for me to understand the pattern that results in a maximum at the fourth largest city.
I like most other Amarokind.
Have you had the arugula-based one? I find Fernet fucking disgusting, but that stuff's pretty tasty.
218: Bi-modal distribution with most of the Yes vote coming from those who have the least and most contact with English people.
Varnelli Sibilla is the best amaro. Followed closely by their dell'Erborista.
Grappa then Reuben, trouble with your tubin'.
Rueben then grappa, Bob's brother's your papa.
I'm confused, did you mean to say most of the No vote?
I brought Fernet to a friend's Thanksgiving two years ago. The Hanky Panky went over well. Went back last year. The bottle was not lower.
Here we currently have Cynar (artichoke), which I'm enjoying mixing with bourbon, vermouth, soda, even Campari variously, and Nardini, which is really complex and I've been sipping straight for the full effect.
I got a couple of very nice bottles of Scotch for turning 40 -- an Ardbeg and a Bhunnahabhain. I suppose this might be the night to crack one of them.
222: Possibly. I can't remember which way the vote is structured. My thinking is that those who have no dealings with the English will vote for separation because they won't experience any costs and those who have too many dealing with the English will vote for separation because they'll decide the cost is worth it.
But that theory doesn't match the results in the slightest.
I'm not watching the results. I was watching a baseball game, then a football game, then nothing.
I just wanted to insult the English.
If it helps, I remembered to feel vaguely bad about providing indirect support for an evil system when I was watching the football game.
For example, what makes Dundee and Aberdeen so different? At first glance to a naive outsider they seem pretty similar: both are medium sized cities outside the Glasgow/Edinburgh major population belt.
231: Oil! Aberdeen has prospered mightily for the last four decades from being the shore hub for the North Sea oil fields and Dundee... hasn't.
Where mycology and gothness coincide. Actually they probably coincide elsewhere too.
So basically "Yes" does best in areas that are denser, poorer, and don't have as many English immigrants?
Yes. And, probably, places that don't have as many relatives of expats - if you've got a son working in London or a son-in-law who's from Manchester, you'll probably be more unionist than otherwise.
Depending on the son-in-law. Unless you're worried he won't be able to go back.
The bar where we had last winter's* meetup with Kraab and Thorn specialized in amarokind. Somehow that's a thing in a flavor category (bitter, herbal, maybe something else) I don't much like, and yet I tend to like them.
*two winters ago?
I don't think that's helpful for me as I have no idea why one part would have more expats than another (other than being richer and denser).
238: well, Aberdeen has a lot of expats and relatives therof because it's an oil town and Aberdonians go all over the world to drill holes in it.
Edinburgh probably as well because it has a huge financial sector.
No union or no splitting up the union?
No splitting up the union. The question was "Should Scotland be an independent country?"
At least I don't have to learn new things. Good night Great Britain.
The moon and the red balloon can go fuck themselves.
I'm not going to ask about Fernet because I'm pretty sure that's anise-flavored.
A common mispronunciation but accurate.
BBC's calling it for the No side.
I can tell the difference between margarine and butter,
I can say "Saskatchewan" without starting to stutter...
I can calculate expected pension benefits based on the projected stability of the currency that will be current in Scotland, I guess.
Explanation from Prof John Curtice (via BBC):
Those areas with more middle-class folk were more likely to vote "No" than those areas with more working class people.
Those areas where there were more people who have come to Scotland after being born in the rest of the UK have a relatively high "No" vote.
Thirdly, those places with a relatively older population are again the places where "No" did well.
Although it is true that the overall "Yes" vote seems to be below what the opinion polls were predicting - it looks as if it might be short by three points or so - that is not uncommon in these referendums where people are being asked to make a big change. They often draw back at the last minute.
I can take apart the remote control, and
I can almost put it back together.
I can add colors to the chameleon,
Change shape with Proteus for advantages,
And set the murderous Machievel to school!
Can I do this, and cannot put the remote back together again?
So it would seem.
Well, how lame. Scotland, you think you are badass, but turn out to be cowered by economists and Boris Johnson types. Chance at awesomeness blown.
Now I can kick myself for not putting a substantial bet on the outcome I believed in.
Don't worry, Halford, there's always the Alaskan Independence Party. (Although they seem to now be in favor of reverting to territorial status rather than independence per se. This is actually a considerably less insane and incoherent position than some others they've held in the past.)
Also UPETGI's 80 is totally correct. Alaskan secessionists are crazy, but in a very different way from Southern secessionists.
I'm not saying Yes was the right vote, but it was the more metal vote.
Presumably Shetland joining Norway would be even more metal.
The great problem with this vote is that it has broken my backup plan, which was to emigrate to a free and independent Orkney. I could have lived off trout, and running a B&B for the commentariat.
On the substantive issue of Scottish independence, I haven't been following things closely, but to the extent that the independence movement was driven by the idea that oil revenue would make an independent Scotland rich and self-reliant "No" was definitely the right choice. (This is also why Alaskan independence is a bad idea, as the past couple of years have clearly shown.)
258: Can't you do that anyway? Orkney does still exist.
I even found a house in this very thread for the B+B.
Maybe the UK has done a poor job managing the trout fishery, and an independent Orkney would do better?
I wanted Yes to win, and would have voted Yes if I had a vote. But I'm still slightly mopey.
Wait, but Yes lost. Surely you have a reason to be mopey?
Ugh, whoops! I mean, I wanted No to win, and would have voted No.
But also very proud of the turnout. Highest turnout in sixty years, maybe highest turnout ever in the UK.
The true tragedy is that England has yet to throw off the iron boot of West Lothian.
258: Orkney does still exist, but it groans under the twin fascist jackboots (only six to go to make up the full octopus!) of Edinburgh and London. So it's no good as a shelter from Borissismo
Oh, I'm sad I missed the whisky discussions. I've gone from somewhat agnostic to definite fan, after 11 distillery visits (it may be Stockholm syndrome). I don't want to admit how many bottles of whisky are in the boot of the car right now.
268: Orkney probably has horribly slow broadband, anyway. Where is there that's beyond the reach of a Tory government and has both excellent trout fishing and download speeds of at least 20 Mbps?
Sorry, I lied - I think it was 8. Ardbeg, Kilchoman, Bruichladdich, Jura, Caol Ila, the one I can't spell that I call Badabing, Lagavulin and Laphroaig.
For those still puzzled about how Scotland voted., Ken MacLeod has tweeted the definitive political map. I particularly love the Argyll towns of Tobermory., Balamory, Jackanory and Polyamory.
The site of the Unfogged B&B is marked as untenanted, or "Nae Cunt" in the vernacular.
268: Sorsele. On the other hand, it's dark for four months of the year, and in that time the river is frozen so hard that Mercedes test drive their cars on the stretch in that photo.
And if you can't afford a merc, you travel on one of these..
To the party.
Classic East/West split there. I'd personally hoped it would be closer, to give the English politicians less wiggle room in the upcoming negotiations on federalism. I still want to know what the Scots will do if the English vote to leave the EU. Burn shit down, for a start...
There was a poll published a couple of weeks ago, which I'd missed until now, which broke down voting intentions by age group:
16 - 18: 57% No
19 - 45: 56% Yes
46 - older than the rocks amongst which she sits: 57% No
Next time, I suspect today's teens are more likely to change their minds than today's youngish adults.
259 was where I came down. Oil is the casino gambling of natural resources.
It all seems sort of anti-climactic. I would have voted "No" but "Yes" was definitely the more exciting choice.
There was a good Slate-pitchy piece (maybe it was even in Slate!) I read yesterday about how a "No" vote would doom the UK anyway, assuming the government isn't lying about devo-max.
re: 275
In the actual voting, teens were strongly 'Yes'.
Am I the only person here who feels really uneasy at giving 16-year-olds the vote? I wouldn't trust my sixteen-year-old self to cross the road without fucking up.
If they're old enough to need a dress code to keep them from distracting the general population, they're old enough to vote.
I really strongly believe in votes at 16.
I mean, I think they are fucking idiots, but so are 26 year olds, and so are 36 year olds, and so are 66 year olds, so why not?
If it's instrumental reasons, there's no real suggestion that they'll either form a large enough bloc or behave coherently enough to actually alter election outcomes at all, except for very close elections which, really, may as well come down to 16 & 17 year olds as tie-breakers as anything else.
And if it's anything else, well, why not let them vote? It doesn't hurt anyone.
(Also voting's a habit and like any good dealer, you want to hook them young. (Especially in this case, get them while they're still living at home / hooked into community-school-parental obligation networks.))
re: 279
My 16 year old self was in university, and had a job. I don't have any issue with it, and it seems as good a cut-off age as any. It's the same age you can sign contracts, too.
We could vote at 18 but not sign contracts until 19.
And drive on public roads at 12, but only if it was a tractor.
258: Orkney does still exist, but it groans under the twin fascist jackboots (only six to go to make up the full octopus!) of Edinburgh and London.
This is only a slight exaggeration of how our Orcadian B&B runner explained why he was voting no. Broadband was actually fine.
Glad no won. Onward to devo-max.
I'm definitely in favour of votes at 16. We let them join the army at 16, for heaven's sake.
I'd also be more opposed that, but it doesn't happen here.
277. The UK is not doomed, but there will be big changes. There would likely have been big changes anyway, because unbeknownst to most foreign correspondents, plans are already being made to transfer significant powers to "city regions" in England, and the Welsh have been flexing their muscles. It's going to be a bumpy ride, but I think the UK in some form has got another generation's life in it.
I'm definitely in favour of votes at 16. We let them join the army at 16, for heaven's sake.
But only with parental permission, so we don't regard them quite as fully-fledged adults yet. But it's also the age at which the state stops being able to send you to school.
Brazil and Argentina, among others (mostly Latin American for some reason) have 16 as the voting age.
Others include Iran, for goodness sake.
288: not for 16-year-olds but 17-year-olds it does.
Anyhow, aside from being able to join the army with a note from your parents most marker-of-adulthood type things in this country are pegged to 16, with the exception of drinking, renting a car (25) and running for national office (25, 30 and 25, for rep, senator and president, respectively).
16 in 293 should have been 18. I am clearly not old enough to post correctly.
Scotland is, historically, a bit less keen on the 'note from your parents' thing and keener on the 'full adult at 16, except for booze', which is why historically young English people use to elope to Gretna to get married.
I like 16. Making teenagers feel they have a voice will help reduce alienation. Even if democracy is a farce.
I don't know about that. You can't vote, smoke (or at least buy smokes), or own a gun until 18.
I didn't realize that legal majority was over 18 in so few states. Only Mississippi, Alabama, and Nebraska. Also Puerto Rico.
293. As I understand it you can't legally fuck in the US until you're 18, which is ridiculous, but in keeping with the rest.
That varies by state. And also by how old the person you want to fuck is.
In 1880, the age of consent was 7 in Delaware.
293.last is actually 35 for president.
I guess one thing this whole business has taught me is that Scotland has a much smaller population than I would have thought. It's just about the same as Minnesota or Denmark. I would have guessed more like 15 millions just off the top of my head. Given that, it seems like just another reason to stay in the Union. If I'd had a vote, I would have voted for getting the Queen off the money, but I can't imagine being a campaigner for one side or the other.
So, Salmond has resigned as First Minister. Looks like Scotland will have a female First Minister by November.
