Re: The Scabbard Isle

1

When do we get results?

About 0600 GMT on Friday.

Do they have math and computers over there?

Yes, we invented them.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:47 AM
horizontal rule
2

So much math it's plural, in fact!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:48 AM
horizontal rule
3

Have we determined the consensus view among the Unfogged Scottish/UK wing?


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:48 AM
horizontal rule
4

I think Jacquard, who is French, should get credit for inventing computers. Maths were invented in India or something.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:49 AM
horizontal rule
5

Do we know what role Mel Gibson will play if the vote is Yes?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:50 AM
horizontal rule
6

Man, I was going to say 1.last. Mutatis mutandis.


Posted by: Annelig Gustator | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:51 AM
horizontal rule
7

Maths, like other torments of humanity (measles, mumps, smallpox etc) must clearly be plural. You can't have a mump.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:51 AM
horizontal rule
8

You can have a pox.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:52 AM
horizontal rule
9

Babbage was hella Scottish. Regular highlander, that guy.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:52 AM
horizontal rule
10

A pock. It's smallpocks, because there are lots of pocks. (they leave pockmarks.)


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:52 AM
horizontal rule
11

I though Shakespeare said "A pox on both your houses" but apparently he said a "plaque". I guess he wanted them to have bad teeth.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:54 AM
horizontal rule
12

Maybe he meant the kind that produces brain lesions.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:55 AM
horizontal rule
13

Yes, you know, one of those blue ones that says "ROMEO MONTAGUE born here 1581".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:55 AM
horizontal rule
14

7: for consistency, Americans should also refer to "physic" rather than "physics".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:56 AM
horizontal rule
15

Votes are counted by hand however. There's considerable public resistance to computerised voting. Not because people don't understand computers, but because they understand them all too well.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:58 AM
horizontal rule
16

Consistency being a hallmark of our shared language.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:58 AM
horizontal rule
17

The short answer is that I don't think we have determined the consensus of the Scottish Unfogged contingent. I'd vote NO if I had a vote; don't know about the others.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:58 AM
horizontal rule
18

re: 3

I'm a No, but I'd favour devo-max* and also a more federal UK in general, with more power for the English regions, and a number of other constitutional changes.

My wife is somewhat disgusted with me on this issue. She thinks I should be 'Yes' on general, 'Who the fuck knows how it might turn out, but wouldn't it be cool?!' reasons.

I can't vote, anyway, living as I do in London.

re: 8

Pox is plural, no? In etymology, if not in usage. Plural of 'pock'.

* basically independence as part of a federal UK, with a few shared top-level institutions/policy areas: central bank, foreign policy, military.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:59 AM
horizontal rule
19

18: that's what I would have guessed. I'd be for devo-max too.

ATTENTION: the "Q. Are We Not Brits? A. Yes, We Are Devo-Max" joke has been made on this site several times already.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:00 AM
horizontal rule
20

Pox is plural, no? In etymology, if not in usage.

In etymology, certainly. Webster's gives the plural as either pox or poxes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:03 AM
horizontal rule
21

18. A bit like those Americans then?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:04 AM
horizontal rule
22

Americans, like mumps, measles, maths and pox, are also plural, but I think it's a bit cruel of you to make the comparison.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:04 AM
horizontal rule
23

2 is the best.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:05 AM
horizontal rule
24

I can't really justify it and don't live there, and I think it's unlikely, but I'm rooting for independence. It would be an awesome thing, even if it's the wrong thing.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:06 AM
horizontal rule
25

She thinks I should be 'Yes' on general, 'Who the fuck knows how it might turn out, but wouldn't it be cool?!' reasons.

Interestingly, this was also the rationale of Democratic supporters of the invasion of Iraq.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:06 AM
horizontal rule
26

25 to 24.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:07 AM
horizontal rule
27

I mean you can't beat the middle fingers in the air, fuck you posh English dickheads part of it.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:07 AM
horizontal rule
28

Has anyone linked the Karl Sharro explainer on the Scotland referendum? Yes? Too bad, here it is again:

http://www.karlremarks.com/2014/09/we-give-scottish-independence.html


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:08 AM
horizontal rule
29

re: 27

I do get the emotional appeal of it, and I do suspect that if independence does come, it won't be the disaster that a lot of the 'No' campaign* say it will be.

* who have generally campaigned like a bunch of wanks, tbh.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:09 AM
horizontal rule
30

If my ancestors hadn't gotten kicked out of Scotland four hundred years ago, I'd vote no. Of course, a lot of other things would probably be different, too.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:10 AM
horizontal rule
31

Stupid question, maybe. But how does the timeline work if Yes wins? Is there a Constitution, laws, etc already queued up and ready to launch? Will there be a transition period?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:11 AM
horizontal rule
32

My dad's been working the phones for the No campaign and reports that the responses fall into six categories:

1. Voicemail.
2. "I'm voting No".
3. "I'm not telling you how I'm voting."
4. "I'm voting yes because I want Trident out of Scotland."
5. "I'm voting yes because of the posh twats" - the idea of Boris Johnson becoming PM has come up a lot in this context.
6. Senile dementia.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:12 AM
horizontal rule
33

25 is why I would probably be a "no" voter if it came down to it. (That and Krugman.)


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:12 AM
horizontal rule
34

31 - first they need to issue a bucket of blue paint to every able-bodied male.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:13 AM
horizontal rule
35

31: that is a bit unclear. There isn't a constitution ready to go. Declaration of independence is tentatively planned for March 2016. There will need to be a lot of stuff happening between now and then; division of assets, the currency issue, negotiations with the EU, negotiations with NATO and so on.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:13 AM
horizontal rule
36

re: 31

The current Scottish government has some proposals. They don't make much sense. There will be a negotiating period. Possibly Tory MPs might make it really difficult. No-one really knows.

It's complicated because the UK parliament and the EU basically don't want to show any of their cards and want to stoke maximum fear, for fear of helping the 'Yes' campaign.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:15 AM
horizontal rule
37

The only times I've ever come close to YES is when I hear some overbearing English type explaining what a disaster independence would be. Then I feel like declaring independence just to show him.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:16 AM
horizontal rule
38

re: 37

Yeah. I feel the emotional pull of 'No Tories!' but yeah. Some of the worst emotional reactions [provoked in me] have been by people I consider friends, or am at least generally sympathetic towards politically. Because there has been a current of, probably unconscious, condescension that makes the hackles rise.

'Look at the wee Scots, and their stupit ideas.'*

* even though the ideas are indeed, some of them, 'stupit'.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:18 AM
horizontal rule
39

I'm mildly "no", but mainly for selfish personal reasons, and I'm quite sympathetic to the "yes" arguments. I do think the pros are underestimating the downsides, or at least the risks, of a split, either deliberately or naively.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:24 AM
horizontal rule
40

By which I mean if I actually had a vote, I'd probably be a "yes".


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:27 AM
horizontal rule
41

I adore the "Yes" campaign's fantasy of transforming the pasty, belligerent, drunk Scots into the fair, fit and public-spirited citizens of a Scandinavian welfare state.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:28 AM
horizontal rule
42

I'd vote "No" based mostly on sentiment and the fact that it's personally inconvenient. CHANGEBAD plus "don't fix what ain't broke" fill out the rest of my reasons for choosing union over independence.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:33 AM
horizontal rule
43

I'm going to guess I'm not the only US reader who feels 37 and 38 ring a bell with regard to a lot of our own political arguments.


Posted by: widget | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:35 AM
horizontal rule
44

If yes wins, I vote we start referring to England and Wales as 'topless Britain'. No 'enlightened', because Scotland takes that as part of the deal.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:37 AM
horizontal rule
45

Regardless of the outcome of today's voting, it seems like tomorrow would be a good time to remember James Connolly's sage advice to his fellow Irish liberationists:

If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs.

Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:38 AM
horizontal rule
46

31 - first they need to issue a bucket of blue paint to every able-bodied male

It takes a surprising amount. I know I've related my attendance at the 1980 LCB--must have been one of the last--painted blue all over. I justified it to myself because it made admission free, which is characteristic. Also girlfriend wanted us to show off as a couple.

I'd vote no, but hope Whitehall is scared.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:38 AM
horizontal rule
47

The maths (all of them) were invented in Iran.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:50 AM
horizontal rule
48

re: 41

Both currents are, I think, real within Scottish society. I think English friends who go with 'You are just like us, you just mistakenly think you aren't.' are wrong, actually.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:52 AM
horizontal rule
49

No will win, I think. I would vote No although the worst possible outcome for Scotland is surely a No vote followed by a UK-wide referendum deciding to leave the EU. Then the poor bastards are marooned in the Atlantic with us for company, which is probably even worse than being adrift out there without us. But imagine the choice between rule by Boris and rule by Alex Salmond! Then grab the nearest bottle of Crawfords unleaded and drain it.

Parenthetically, the tasting notes on that! The only reason anyone ever drank it was because it was the cheapest rotgut in the bar.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:52 AM
horizontal rule
50

But imagine the choice between rule by Boris and rule by Alex Salmond!

I don't think that's a fair comparison, actually. Salmond might be a bumptious smug wee prick, but he is, actually, quite a competent politician. His two administrations have, as far as I can tell, done a decent if non-spectacular job on most things. He is also, as far as I can tell -- for all that he is prepared to talk a lot of shite to win the vote, and stoke the 'Braveheart' bullshit -- quite genuinely committed to the whole small-nation civic-nationalism thing. Which may [viz. Alex's blog] be stupid, post 2008, but it's not as repugnant as Boris's core beliefs.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:57 AM
horizontal rule
51

18 and 24 are both right. And 39, except if I had a vote I'd vote no.

The US analogy is interesting. What if the Northeast, or the West Coast, left the US? (as in the old United States of Canada/Jesusland map.) It'd be pretty nice for those of us in the blue areas, but it'd be pretty bad for the world.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:57 AM
horizontal rule
52

48: On the "you aren't just like us", how much does that apply to Northern English? My impression is that there are real differences between Glasgow and Manchester or Newcastle but they're smaller than the differences between the latter and the South of England.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:59 AM
horizontal rule
53

re: 52

Yeah, that's probably right.

the worst possible outcome for Scotland is surely a No vote followed by a UK-wide referendum deciding to leave the EU

And that would be horrific, yeah.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
54

Pretty horrific outcome for rump-UK as well.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:09 AM
horizontal rule
55

51: It'd be pretty nice for those of us in the blue areas, but it'd be pretty bad for the world.

Why would it be bad for the world?


Posted by: real ffeJ annaH | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:11 AM
horizontal rule
56

51


Secession: How Vermont and All the Other States Can Save Themselves from the Empire
Paperback - April 1, 2008 Thomas Naylor and Kirkpatrick Sale


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:11 AM
horizontal rule
57

Why would it be bad for the world?

Presumably because rump-USA would be much more conservative and even more militaristic.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:13 AM
horizontal rule
58

55: I'm assuming that the redder rump state would, despite being poorer, be more willing to project its will on the world militaristically. I guess that's debatable as there's a lot of centrist Democratic hawks from blue states.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:13 AM
horizontal rule
59

The trouble with those (not here) talking like Scottish leftism is inherent to the nation - so easy to see a pattern over 20 or 40 years and get the impression it's indelible, when it's actually highly contingent and there's no guarantee it will continue. (Same wrong instinct with New England, California, etc.)

I'm idly curious, if independence happened and once constitutional issues were all over with, what domestic politics would look like. Would SNP be center-right in the Scottish window?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:16 AM
horizontal rule
60

the redder rump state

A nation of baboons?


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:16 AM
horizontal rule
61

ttaM, would you rather a politician up the arse of Donald Trump or one who'd put his arm round his shoulders? There's an argument that Boris has been a perfectly adequate mayor of London, too.

I do think that Salmond is in his private life morally superior to BJ. That's another thing he has in common with Hitler.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:31 AM
horizontal rule
62

18: I never understood while the Welsh parliament's powers were so wimpy. I mean, they united with England much earlier, so I guess that the national identity is less. But there are quite a lot fo Welsh speakers which might lend them to have a strong national identity.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:50 AM
horizontal rule
63

62: Wales came in more as conquered territory than as an equal partner. My understanding of the legal details is weak, but it's not just that it happened long before 1707, but on totally different terms.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:53 AM
horizontal rule
64

The thing that sort of pisses me off (and I don't have a right to an opinion) is this we want to be a separate country but we want to keep the Pound. I feel like saying that they should get their own currency or join the Euro.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:56 AM
horizontal rule
65

Kevin Drum saying that you're dead right, Scotland should have its own currency as a protective measure. Small countries need to be able to control their own monetary policy or you get things like what happened to Greece.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:58 AM
horizontal rule
66

The thing that sort of pisses me off (and I don't have a right to an opinion) is this we want to be a separate country but we want to keep the Pound. I feel like saying that they should get their own currency or join the Euro.

But you can see why it's such a tempting prospect to use a currency that you have no control over, from the experience of all those Eurozone countries that will never recover economically because they can never experience inflation.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:59 AM
horizontal rule
67

64: why do you hate Panama?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:04 AM
horizontal rule
68

I have an emotional antipathy to British/English nationalism that on the one hand makes me want to cheer on the Scots who are attempting to get out from under our control, and on the other quite afraid of what happens if we try for more self-determination by leaving the EU ourselves. I need to think this through more - what actually would be the consequences if the UK, rump or whole, were to leave? I just look at UKIP and have a gut feeling that it would be baaaaad.


Posted by: Ume | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:04 AM
horizontal rule
69

I was going to make a joke about how independent Scotland should adopt Bitcoin as its currency, but Googling reveals that a number of people have seriously proposed that.

Actually, now that I think about it, the idea of "independent Scotland with Bitcoin as its official currency" is no more an insane idea than "independent Scotland".


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:06 AM
horizontal rule
70

I started out thinking it was a really bad idea, but I seem to have come around to favoring Yes. Self-determination and whatnot.

Krugman is right about the currency, though. Leaving the UK but keeping the pound is madness.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:07 AM
horizontal rule
71

Speaking of Kevin Drum, I know that unfogged is dedicated to the CHANGEBAD motto, but would anybody interested in updating the sidebar to reflect the fact that Kevin Drum is at Mother Jones and not the Washington Monthly?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:09 AM
horizontal rule
72

Scotland should stay the fuck away from Bitcoin. But issuing its own digital currency, backed up by a central bank, would be an interesting way to go. Ecuador is about to do that.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:12 AM
horizontal rule
73

Geez, next you'll want them to remove "Cobb" and "Listen Missy" and all the other ones that haven't published since 2007.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:13 AM
horizontal rule
74

62: Wales came in more as conquered territory than as an equal partner. My understanding of the legal details is weak, but it's not just that it happened long before 1707, but on totally different terms.

Yes, it's partly because they could get away with offering less (Plaid Cymru was a lot less of a threat to Labour than the SNP in 97), and partly because the starting points were very different. England and Wales had a unified legal and education system. England and Scotland didn't.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
75

My theory is that the small European nations and France should band together, invade Germany, and inflate the hell out of the Euro while destroying Frankfurt. Sweden could invade from the North, Gustavus Adolphus style.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:14 AM
horizontal rule
76

And then you'll want to delete the links to blogs that don't even exist anymore, and the "Recent Comments" sidebar will vote for independence, and WHERE DOES THE MADNESS END????


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:15 AM
horizontal rule
77

Scotland should stay the fuck away from Bitcoin. But issuing its own digital currency, backed up by a central bank, would be an interesting way to go. Ecuador is about to do that.

This would have the bonus of really pissing off the goldbug/bitcoin types by making negative interest rates viable.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:16 AM
horizontal rule
78

57,58: Oh, sure, they would be much more conservative and militaristic, but so much poorer, as well as having a strong isolationist streak. The New Confederate States of America would not be pushing anyone around.


Posted by: real ffeJ annaH | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:23 AM
horizontal rule
79

Also, a lot of their military industrial capacity will be located in another country. And their West Coast ports will be in Alaska. In the East, a lot depends on who gets Norfolk.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:33 AM
horizontal rule
80

I know they're conservative, but there's just no way Alaska joins the confederate states over independence.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:36 AM
horizontal rule
81

It was surprising to us when we were in Shetland in June how many people spontaneously asked what we thought, and that they all really wanted to have a substantive chat about the referendum, they weren't just nattering about it. Coming from the land of endless ballot measures, it was very different.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:36 AM
horizontal rule
82

Just to be clear, "the land of endless ballot measures" is California, not the other 49 states.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:38 AM
horizontal rule
83

Well, some of the other 49 states.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:40 AM
horizontal rule
84

Shetland is threatening to break away from Scotland if the vote is "Yes". Whether they would reunify with England or join Norway I'm not clear. I know what I'd do.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:42 AM
horizontal rule
85

Does Shetland have all the oil or just ponies?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
86

85: They also have sweaters.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:45 AM
horizontal rule
87

I too have been curious about Minivet's question in 59. Also this: how much difference does it make that expats can't vote abroad? Do they lean significantly one way? There sure are a lot of them.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:46 AM
horizontal rule
88

My family over there AFAICT are all leaning "no" although I guess my one cousin can't vote because she's living in Leeds? Her sister is up in Edinburgh and my uncle is in Livingston.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:47 AM
horizontal rule
89

76: Well, we could keep the washingtonmonthly and Kevin Drum. I kind of miss Drum's successor.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:50 AM
horizontal rule
90

Many sweaters, much ponies, plentiful Paleolithic ruins, lots and lots of public swimming pools (see oil revenue). Norway was mentioned in every one of the conversation.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:53 AM
horizontal rule
91

I've gotten into the habit of googling "Scotland independence polling" to get the Wikipedia page with the latest results, and recently one of the autosuggestions that pops up is "Scotland independence next poll".


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:56 AM
horizontal rule
92

Shetland > Iceland y/n? Not that I'm likely to visit either any time soon.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
93

Iceland likely hipper, Shetland was amazing though.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:57 AM
horizontal rule
94

86: Unless Fair Isle secedes from the Glorious Hjetlandian Republic. Dunno why Orkney wouldn't want to go with Shetland--they have the big refinery/processing center at Flotta.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:59 AM
horizontal rule
95

90: We were in Scotland a few weeks ago. We couldn't make Shetland work, alas, but Orkney (where we'd been before) and the Western Isles were both amazing. Rural Scotland in general is lovely, and the Norse and Gaelic bits particularly so.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
96

And finally, perhaps Edinburgh Evening News cartoonist Frank Boyle is not the same person as comedian Frankie Boyle, but the former doesn't have a Wiki, so I'm going to assume they are one.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:03 AM
horizontal rule
97

RPF is a weird weird phenomena.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:13 AM
horizontal rule
98

Sorry, wrong thread.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in" (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:13 AM
horizontal rule
99

but the former doesn't have a Wiki … pedia entry.

FTFY!


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
100

I've been to Orkney AND Shetland, bitches. The Faroes too. A long time ago. I'd happily get a second home in the Shetlands when my billions come in.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
101

100: Not gonna lie, I've been trolling through Scotland real estate sites.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:22 AM
horizontal rule
102

92: is that a comparison or are you trying to redirect Shetland's independence movement via the shell? In which case, Iceland would probably prefer '>>'.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:24 AM
horizontal rule
103

FTFY!

Thank you! I honestly have no idea how that happened. I sometimes skip to future clauses and sentences as I write.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:29 AM
horizontal rule
104

Come to think, I have a vitally important wool delivery coming in from Scotland. How is independence likely to affect yarn supplies?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:31 AM
horizontal rule
105

We left Scotland today. It still seemed really up in the air, though some of that might be from having been on Islay (as the whisky industry as a large leans no), but even our married B&B hosts didn't agree. (Somewhat amusing - native Ileach was voting no, Irish husband yes.)

Add us to the list of people eyeing property in the islands - would kill for a holiday home there.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:35 AM
horizontal rule
106

105.last: I have a list of options.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:36 AM
horizontal rule
107

105.first: The Irish are known for their love of the English. Despite the polls, Yes signs were everywhere we went; there were only a few places No visibly dominated (a village on Lewis, and along the A9 south of Inverness.)

105.last: This is the one that caught my eye. I pointed it out to my wife from the ferry and she's up for it for when we hit the big time.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:41 AM
horizontal rule
108

We left Scotland today. It still seemed really up in the air

First spindizzies, then freedom!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:43 AM
horizontal rule
109

107: I left out the part where he'd lived and worked in England since age 10 or so. Couldn't think of an easy way to summarise.

We saw far more No signs than Yes signs, but I suspect we spent most of our time further south than dalriata.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:49 AM
horizontal rule
110

108


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:50 AM
horizontal rule
111

Apparently the blog doesn't like ascii hearts. 108 is awesome.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:51 AM
horizontal rule
112

107.last: Very nice. I think Orkney is farther north than I could deal with.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:51 AM
horizontal rule
113

We were in Edinburgh and didn't see any No support there, either. It was during Fringe, and before the Yes-ahead poll so perhaps the Nos realized they have to actually make some noise.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:52 AM
horizontal rule
114

Could be the areas you were in, too. Stockbridge was coated in No signs, and I assume that's in part because the richer and older you are the more likely you're to vote no.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:02 AM
horizontal rule
115

Could be the areas you were in, too. Stockbridge was coated in No signs, and I assume that's in part because the richer and older you are the more likely you're to vote no.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:03 AM
horizontal rule
116

How about this place. Probably super not warm but whatever, why are you in Shetland to begin with. Only 190,000 pounds which is like what, $315,000? Who's in it with me for the ultimate remote lair.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:29 AM
horizontal rule
117

Also it's on the Island of Yell which (a) is an island in the middle of the ocean literally called "Yell" (b) according to Wikipedia is huge and has a population of 915.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:32 AM
horizontal rule
118

117: And not just Yell, but Mid Yell. It's like, YOU CAN TAKE OUR LIVES BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE OUR FR—oh hey, that looks like a nice place.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:36 AM
horizontal rule
119

If anyone from unfogged buys a place on the Island of Yell, I'm glad to come be your knitting consultant. I'd even be willing to learn to spin.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:18 PM
horizontal rule
120

115: Mostly Old Town. Because tourists.

116: Want.

The best part of owning land in an independent Shetland is that you could presumably get a license to do some modern and progressive Viking raiding. That oil money isn't going to last forever.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:28 PM
horizontal rule
121

I think Krugman is wrong about the currency issue. Scotland's economy is tightly integrated into England's economy, much more tightly integrated than Germany and Greece, so it doesn't face the same risks from using the pound that European countries face using the Euro.

I wonder about the control issue as well: It's better to have some say in your currency than no say, but how much say does Scotland really have now?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:28 PM
horizontal rule
122

I think Krugman is wrong about the currency issue.

Stiglitz is also skeptical.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
123

121: There is something called the East Caribbean Dollar. It's the currency of 8 small states in the Caribbean and is fixed to the US dollar. They seem to do okay with a pegged exchange rate.

And symbolically, the Scots ought to come up with a new currency and peg it to the British pound, if they want to abdicate responsibility for monetary policy.

I just found out that the man who was a priest at the church I went to as a kid just came out for Yes in the Guardian.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:41 PM
horizontal rule
124

I'd vote Yes, but then I'd have voted Oui in Quebec in the 90s. If I'd, you know, been a member of that polity.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:46 PM
horizontal rule
125

123: Wouldn't that mean that they wouldn't be able to run budget deficits? Or devalue? If you want to have a high-service, high-cost government in a country that depends upon exports that seems iffy.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:47 PM
horizontal rule
126

I'd vote for Vermont independence too, but then I'd be worried that Quebec would try to annex it.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:47 PM
horizontal rule
127

If they do come up with a new currency, they should call it the Sterling Pound. 'cause it's their city and all.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 12:50 PM
horizontal rule
128

No, the Pound Stirling.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:06 PM
horizontal rule
129

Some former colony in a desert should have the Pound Sand.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:08 PM
horizontal rule
130

126 -- Me too, but I'd call doing so reclaiming the independent republic, to spite Texas. And California's flag.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:10 PM
horizontal rule
131

I'd vote for Vermont independence too, but then I'd be worried that Quebec would try to annex it.

YOU MEAN "ONTARIO" THANK YOU VERY MUCH.


Posted by: OPNIONATED AARON SORKIN | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:10 PM
horizontal rule
132

128: ack. Yes. That.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:12 PM
horizontal rule
133

125: If they peg to the pound, then they can't independently devalue, but their economy is sufficiently correlated with England's that most of the time when they would want to devalue, England would want to devalue as well.

As Greece demonstrated amply in the 2000s, not having your own currency is no obstacle to running a deficit.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:15 PM
horizontal rule
134

They should call the currency the dong because why should Vietnam get all the fun.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:27 PM
horizontal rule
135

If they peg to the pound, then they can't independently devalue

Well, it does give them one solid "release the peg" play, which is always a nice thing to have in their back pocket.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:28 PM
horizontal rule
136

133: Make that "they can't run a consistent deficit if they don't want their economy to go to shit."


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 1:37 PM
horizontal rule
137

The trouble with those (not here) talking like Scottish leftism is inherent to the nation - so easy to see a pattern over 20 or 40 years and get the impression it's indelible, when it's actually highly contingent and there's no guarantee it will continue.

Fair enough, but my impression is that Scotland has been pretty leftist for as long as we've had leftists. James Maxton, Keir Hardie, Ramsay MacDonald, Red Clydeside and so on. I don't think you'd be able to point to a time when Scotland was definitely politically to the right of England.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 3:49 PM
horizontal rule
138

If they peg to the pound

Snerk.

one solid "release the peg" play, which is always a nice thing to have in their back pocket.

SNERK.


Posted by: nosflow. | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 3:53 PM
horizontal rule
139

137: No, but it looks like there were long periods of time Scotland was no more to the left than the rest of the UK.

Looking at party with highest % of popular vote in Scotland vs. UK-wide:
1945: Labour 47.9%; Labour 47.7%
1950: Labour 46.2%; Labour 46.1%
1951: Conservative (with Unionist) 48.6%; Conservative 48.0%
1955: Conservative 50.1%; Conservative 49.7%
1959: Labour 46.7%; Conservative 49.4%
1964: Labour 48.7%; Labour 44.1%
1966: Labour 49.9%; Labour 48.0%

In the 70's it gets less comparable because the SNP becomes a significant party.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 4:06 PM
horizontal rule
140

137. Is it really the case that Scots leftism isn't like the sort of union "leftism" we often get in the states, which is about protecting their jobs and oppressing the out-groups?

(Intended as a serious question, not a troll, btw.)


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 4:18 PM
horizontal rule
141

Are there a lot of people who should be fired from the job of "Scotsman", but hang on because of contracts with corrupt politicians?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 4:47 PM
horizontal rule
142

141: well, no TRUE scotsmen.


Posted by: turgid jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 4:49 PM
horizontal rule
143

The wait is frustrating. With math and computers we'd know by now. Is everyone in Scotland up drinking until 6am tonight?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 5:23 PM
horizontal rule
144

"How is this night the same as every other night?"


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 5:24 PM
horizontal rule
145

The leavening.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 5:41 PM
horizontal rule
146

That and the sitting up straight.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 5:43 PM
horizontal rule
147

Clackmannanshire votes No. It's crazy to have almost 90% turnout.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 5:44 PM
horizontal rule
148

147.last: nor in australia... well from one direction


Posted by: turgid jacobian | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 5:48 PM
horizontal rule
149

Another 45 minutes till someone else declares and we can all stop pretending to care about Clackmannanshire.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 5:57 PM
horizontal rule
150

"Chibs," the somewhat randomly Scottish character on Sons of Anarchy, votes Aye.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:02 PM
horizontal rule
151

I VOTE MASHIE NIBLICK


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:03 PM
horizontal rule
152

No in Orkney! By 67% to 33%!

Good old Orkney.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:07 PM
horizontal rule
153

149: you're in luck. Orkney voted No, 67%, 83.7% turnout.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:07 PM
horizontal rule
154

Just to say that I am not going to sleep any time soon as I am just to the left of the Andes this week, so it's still quite early.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:08 PM
horizontal rule
155

I tried. Back to my Highland Park.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:08 PM
horizontal rule
156

Do we now have to pretend to care about Orkney?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:09 PM
horizontal rule
157

156: I really do care about Orkney. It's a great place, they have carnivorous sheep, their own dialect, and three trees, all leaning well to the northeast (away from the prevailing wind).


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:10 PM
horizontal rule
158

Also Scottish leftism / nationalism is pretty obsessively non-in/out group-y, obviously not perfectly because who is, but still.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:10 PM
horizontal rule
159

Will there be live coverage of people burning shit down, or should we just check the news in the morning?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:11 PM
horizontal rule
160

Nah. They were expected to go No and they're all the smallest council area.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:11 PM
horizontal rule
161

I can't tell if this is a joke. If it is, it's not very funny. If it's not it is possibly the stupidest analysis of all time.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:14 PM
horizontal rule
162

157: I love it there too. There isn't a single tree there that isn't within ten meters of a building. It doesn't have the terrain relief of the rest of the highlands but the culture's great and unique, there's endless history and it's beautiful in its own way.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:14 PM
horizontal rule
163

Oh yeah this is all quite speculative until the big urban booths come in. Still, the trend is looking Really Bad for Yes.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:15 PM
horizontal rule
164

Good old mashie niblick.


Posted by: Andrew Wyke | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:15 PM
horizontal rule
165

161: it's a joke. They should be focusing on how much healthier the rUK would be.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:16 PM
horizontal rule
166

This vote needs more media spectacle. Why am I not seeing a hologram streaming live vote counts to my phone?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:21 PM
horizontal rule
167

166: have some more Highland Park, Korea's finest Scotch.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:22 PM
horizontal rule
168

Contrary to what you'd expect given the name, it isn't actually made in the highlands. It's from Detroit.

The wife had some Ardbeg. Still not sure if I love it or think it's foul smelling stuff.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:33 PM
horizontal rule
169

I've been working my way through a bottle of this incredibly good value Scotch. $20/bottle!


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:34 PM
horizontal rule
170

If you don't want it I'll have it.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:34 PM
horizontal rule
171

but then I'd have voted Oui in Quebec in the 90s.

I really doubt that you would have. Had you been a member of that polity.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:34 PM
horizontal rule
172

Let's not be hasty now. Scotch is scotch.

Something I am confused by: a bottle we bought in the UK is 70cl. A US bottle from the same distillery is 750ml. Both seem to be standard. Any idea why?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:43 PM
horizontal rule
173

Well, those are British Centiliters. Slightly larger than the regular ones.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 6:46 PM
horizontal rule
174

Well, those are British Human Centiliters. Significantly more horrifying than the regular ones.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:00 PM
horizontal rule
175

Hmm. Blended cheap-ish Scotch, or expensive single-malt not-actually-from-Scotland single malt whisky, from Japan? Each sends some kind of a message, I suppose.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:01 PM
horizontal rule
176

I have some Fernet. Free Italy and/or the Mission!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:06 PM
horizontal rule
177

Blended, cheap Canadian sends a more clear message.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:06 PM
horizontal rule
178

I have some grappa con ruta, I guess I can do something regretfully?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:06 PM
horizontal rule
179

"I'm on the wrong side of increasing economic inequality," it says.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:07 PM
horizontal rule
180

I'm in a bar, but I don't know if they have grappa. How would that sit on to of a reuben?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:09 PM
horizontal rule
181

What, like if you poured it on top? Probably not well.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:12 PM
horizontal rule
182

It's in my stomach, along with cole slaw (because it's closer to being an actual vegetable than fries).


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:14 PM
horizontal rule
183

If your stomach can deal with the grappa, adding a reuben's probably not going to make things any worse.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:14 PM
horizontal rule
184

Speaking of which, I guess I am now officially lactose intolerant. That's what I get for flaunting my lactose privilege all these years, I suppose. Sucks. I really like many dairy products. And this is the midwest! They're pretty fucking hard to avoid. Sigh.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:16 PM
horizontal rule
185

I have Lagavulin, Laphroiag, Highland Park, and Yamazaki. I guess I could make my own blend?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:18 PM
horizontal rule
186

No grappa. I'm not going to ask about Fernet because I'm pretty sure that's anise-flavored.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:18 PM
horizontal rule
187

It's like they say, "Grappa then Reuben, your name is Steuben. Rueben then Grappa, keep an eye on Orkney."


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:18 PM
horizontal rule
188

It is not anise-flavored! It's kind of like a minty pine forest, but no anise.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
189

That sounds worse than anise.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:23 PM
horizontal rule
190

Just get some ouzo.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:26 PM
horizontal rule
191

I cannot believe we failed to put in scotch for this occasion. I guess I'll have some... bourbon?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:27 PM
horizontal rule
192

Not looking good for an independent Scotland.

I am now officially lactose intolerant

What, did you get a stamp? Anyway, it's not so bad. I'm pretty intolerant but can have some sheep and goat milk cheeses, and soy milk is everywhere, and if you really can't avoid cow's milk cheese, you can pop some lactaid pills and not worry too much about it. You will come to notice just how much stuff gets bathed in cheese, however. There's no reason for that! (Well, except that it's relatively cheap and filling.)


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:28 PM
horizontal rule
193

'm pretty intolerant

Also to lactose!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:29 PM
horizontal rule
194

184: Depending on severity, cheese (esp hard cheeses) and yogurt are often OK for people who are lactose-intolerant. For everything else, there's Lactaid. Lactose-free milk is kind of odd, though. It's a little sweeter than normal, so it tastes funny to me both by itself and in baked goods.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
195

ok, off to get a mars bar


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
196

191: to celebrate the head of the House of Bourbon-Orléans's Burger King franchise management.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:31 PM
horizontal rule
197

Yeah, I had a yoghurt parfait the other day that seemed to help somewhat. And some cheese doesn't seem to be as problematic. But my doctor has been bugging me to go vegan for awhile now for my general health, so I probably should.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:33 PM
horizontal rule
198

I have always been a big fan of goat chevre too. There's one cafe nearby that makes grilled goat cheese sandwiches that are incredibly tasty.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:34 PM
horizontal rule
199

All the best chevre is goat chevre.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:47 PM
horizontal rule
200

5 councils out of 32 declared, all "no", 77k to 64k at present.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:55 PM
horizontal rule
201

Well, that's completely out of date now - Dundee (Yes) and E Renfrewshire (No) just declared.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:57 PM
horizontal rule
202

Dundee!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:58 PM
horizontal rule
203

199: Nothing is chevre like a goat chevre, amirite?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 7:58 PM
horizontal rule
204

168.2 Wait, since when do you have to choose between these two things? Half the stuff I like smells, you know, interesting.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:00 PM
horizontal rule
205

We were given a bottle of Fernet a couple of years ago by a somewhat clueless out of town guest, I suppose on the basis of living in SF? Truly mind-blowingly foul stuff. It sort of lurked in the cupboard for a bit out of a sense of social obligation, then got the boot.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:04 PM
horizontal rule
206

190: I just stuck to beer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:05 PM
horizontal rule
207

Why is the football game somewhere Mexican?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:06 PM
horizontal rule
208

Fernet is so good! I have 1/2 a bottle downstairs, and have lobbied successfully for its addition to the roster at several local bars.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:07 PM
horizontal rule
209

Why is Tampa sucking so very, very much.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:09 PM
horizontal rule
210

I love Fernet. I go through it pretty fast when I have some. I like most other Amaro, too, but I like Fernet the most.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:10 PM
horizontal rule
211

Gerard Depardieu says he drinks up to 14 bottles of wine a day, with Champagne for breakfast. Time to restart the Auld Alliance.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:11 PM
horizontal rule
212

Amari? Amare? Amaros?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:12 PM
horizontal rule
213

Time to restart the Auld Alliance.

No can do. Depardieu is a Russian citizen these days.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:17 PM
horizontal rule
214

"kinds of amaro"


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
215

I like most other Amarokind.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:19 PM
horizontal rule
216

Fernet is really good. Like other bottles in the same part of the store, but without any sugar. (and with a mysterious menthol taste)

I got addicted to Fernet & cola. Apparently it's huge in Argentina.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:23 PM
horizontal rule
217

323k NO to 285k YES! Still a long way to go...


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:23 PM
horizontal rule
218

Can someone explain to me what are the major factors in why one part of Scotland is more pro-independence than another part? It's hard for me to understand the pattern that results in a maximum at the fourth largest city.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
219

I like most other Amarokind.

Have you had the arugula-based one? I find Fernet fucking disgusting, but that stuff's pretty tasty.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:46 PM
horizontal rule
220

218: Bi-modal distribution with most of the Yes vote coming from those who have the least and most contact with English people.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
221

Varnelli Sibilla is the best amaro. Followed closely by their dell'Erborista.

Grappa then Reuben, trouble with your tubin'.
Rueben then grappa, Bob's brother's your papa.


Posted by: Mr. Blandings | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
222

I'm confused, did you mean to say most of the No vote?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
223

I brought Fernet to a friend's Thanksgiving two years ago. The Hanky Panky went over well. Went back last year. The bottle was not lower.

Here we currently have Cynar (artichoke), which I'm enjoying mixing with bourbon, vermouth, soda, even Campari variously, and Nardini, which is really complex and I've been sipping straight for the full effect.

I got a couple of very nice bottles of Scotch for turning 40 -- an Ardbeg and a Bhunnahabhain. I suppose this might be the night to crack one of them.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
224

-h


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 8:59 PM
horizontal rule
225

222: Possibly. I can't remember which way the vote is structured. My thinking is that those who have no dealings with the English will vote for separation because they won't experience any costs and those who have too many dealing with the English will vote for separation because they'll decide the cost is worth it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:01 PM
horizontal rule
226

Tanksgiving?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:01 PM
horizontal rule
227

But that theory doesn't match the results in the slightest.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:03 PM
horizontal rule
228

I'm not watching the results. I was watching a baseball game, then a football game, then nothing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
229

I just wanted to insult the English.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
230

If it helps, I remembered to feel vaguely bad about providing indirect support for an evil system when I was watching the football game.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
231

For example, what makes Dundee and Aberdeen so different? At first glance to a naive outsider they seem pretty similar: both are medium sized cities outside the Glasgow/Edinburgh major population belt.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:10 PM
horizontal rule
232

231: Oil! Aberdeen has prospered mightily for the last four decades from being the shore hub for the North Sea oil fields and Dundee... hasn't.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
233

Where mycology and gothness coincide. Actually they probably coincide elsewhere too.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:14 PM
horizontal rule
234

So basically "Yes" does best in areas that are denser, poorer, and don't have as many English immigrants?


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:16 PM
horizontal rule
235

Yes. And, probably, places that don't have as many relatives of expats - if you've got a son working in London or a son-in-law who's from Manchester, you'll probably be more unionist than otherwise.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:17 PM
horizontal rule
236

Depending on the son-in-law. Unless you're worried he won't be able to go back.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:19 PM
horizontal rule
237

The bar where we had last winter's* meetup with Kraab and Thorn specialized in amarokind. Somehow that's a thing in a flavor category (bitter, herbal, maybe something else) I don't much like, and yet I tend to like them.

*two winters ago?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:19 PM
horizontal rule
238

I don't think that's helpful for me as I have no idea why one part would have more expats than another (other than being richer and denser).


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
239

238: well, Aberdeen has a lot of expats and relatives therof because it's an oil town and Aberdonians go all over the world to drill holes in it.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
240

BBC's calling it for the No side.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:23 PM
horizontal rule
241

Edinburgh probably as well because it has a huge financial sector.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:24 PM
horizontal rule
242

No union or no splitting up the union?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:24 PM
horizontal rule
243

No splitting up the union. The question was "Should Scotland be an independent country?"


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:25 PM
horizontal rule
244

At least I don't have to learn new things. Good night Great Britain.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:27 PM
horizontal rule
245

The moon and the red balloon can go fuck themselves.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:28 PM
horizontal rule
246

I'm not going to ask about Fernet because I'm pretty sure that's anise-flavored.

A common mispronunciation but accurate.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:28 PM
horizontal rule
247

BBC's calling it for the No side.

I can tell the difference between margarine and butter,
I can say "Saskatchewan" without starting to stutter...

I can calculate expected pension benefits based on the projected stability of the currency that will be current in Scotland, I guess.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:39 PM
horizontal rule
248

Explanation from Prof John Curtice (via BBC):

Those areas with more middle-class folk were more likely to vote "No" than those areas with more working class people.

Those areas where there were more people who have come to Scotland after being born in the rest of the UK have a relatively high "No" vote.

Thirdly, those places with a relatively older population are again the places where "No" did well.

Although it is true that the overall "Yes" vote seems to be below what the opinion polls were predicting - it looks as if it might be short by three points or so - that is not uncommon in these referendums where people are being asked to make a big change. They often draw back at the last minute.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:39 PM
horizontal rule
249

I can take apart the remote control, and
I can almost put it back together.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:53 PM
horizontal rule
250

I can add colors to the chameleon,
Change shape with Proteus for advantages,
And set the murderous Machievel to school!
Can I do this, and cannot put the remote back together again?
So it would seem.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:55 PM
horizontal rule
251

I guess probably "Machiavel"?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 9:56 PM
horizontal rule
252

Well, how lame. Scotland, you think you are badass, but turn out to be cowered by economists and Boris Johnson types. Chance at awesomeness blown.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:01 PM
horizontal rule
253

Now I can kick myself for not putting a substantial bet on the outcome I believed in.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:10 PM
horizontal rule
254

Don't worry, Halford, there's always the Alaskan Independence Party. (Although they seem to now be in favor of reverting to territorial status rather than independence per se. This is actually a considerably less insane and incoherent position than some others they've held in the past.)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:14 PM
horizontal rule
255

Also UPETGI's 80 is totally correct. Alaskan secessionists are crazy, but in a very different way from Southern secessionists.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:17 PM
horizontal rule
256

I'm not saying Yes was the right vote, but it was the more metal vote.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:46 PM
horizontal rule
257

Presumably Shetland joining Norway would be even more metal.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 10:56 PM
horizontal rule
258

The great problem with this vote is that it has broken my backup plan, which was to emigrate to a free and independent Orkney. I could have lived off trout, and running a B&B for the commentariat.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:11 PM
horizontal rule
259

On the substantive issue of Scottish independence, I haven't been following things closely, but to the extent that the independence movement was driven by the idea that oil revenue would make an independent Scotland rich and self-reliant "No" was definitely the right choice. (This is also why Alaskan independence is a bad idea, as the past couple of years have clearly shown.)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:11 PM
horizontal rule
260

258: Can't you do that anyway? Orkney does still exist.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:12 PM
horizontal rule
261

I even found a house in this very thread for the B+B.


Posted by: Robert Halford | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:19 PM
horizontal rule
262

Maybe the UK has done a poor job managing the trout fishery, and an independent Orkney would do better?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:32 PM
horizontal rule
263

I wanted Yes to win, and would have voted Yes if I had a vote. But I'm still slightly mopey.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:41 PM
horizontal rule
264

Wait, but Yes lost. Surely you have a reason to be mopey?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:45 PM
horizontal rule
265

Ugh, whoops! I mean, I wanted No to win, and would have voted No.

But also very proud of the turnout. Highest turnout in sixty years, maybe highest turnout ever in the UK.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:54 PM
horizontal rule
266

Ah, okay.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-18-14 11:55 PM
horizontal rule
267

The true tragedy is that England has yet to throw off the iron boot of West Lothian.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 12:42 AM
horizontal rule
268

258: Orkney does still exist, but it groans under the twin fascist jackboots (only six to go to make up the full octopus!) of Edinburgh and London. So it's no good as a shelter from Borissismo


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 12:58 AM
horizontal rule
269

Oh, I'm sad I missed the whisky discussions. I've gone from somewhat agnostic to definite fan, after 11 distillery visits (it may be Stockholm syndrome). I don't want to admit how many bottles of whisky are in the boot of the car right now.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 1:39 AM
horizontal rule
270

268: Orkney probably has horribly slow broadband, anyway. Where is there that's beyond the reach of a Tory government and has both excellent trout fishing and download speeds of at least 20 Mbps?


Posted by: Ume | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 1:40 AM
horizontal rule
271

Sorry, I lied - I think it was 8. Ardbeg, Kilchoman, Bruichladdich, Jura, Caol Ila, the one I can't spell that I call Badabing, Lagavulin and Laphroaig.


Posted by: Parenthetical | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 1:43 AM
horizontal rule
272

For those still puzzled about how Scotland voted., Ken MacLeod has tweeted the definitive political map. I particularly love the Argyll towns of Tobermory., Balamory, Jackanory and Polyamory.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 2:16 AM
horizontal rule
273

The site of the Unfogged B&B is marked as untenanted, or "Nae Cunt" in the vernacular.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 2:23 AM
horizontal rule
274

268: Sorsele. On the other hand, it's dark for four months of the year, and in that time the river is frozen so hard that Mercedes test drive their cars on the stretch in that photo.

And if you can't afford a merc, you travel on one of these..

To the party.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 2:32 AM
horizontal rule
275

Classic East/West split there. I'd personally hoped it would be closer, to give the English politicians less wiggle room in the upcoming negotiations on federalism. I still want to know what the Scots will do if the English vote to leave the EU. Burn shit down, for a start...

There was a poll published a couple of weeks ago, which I'd missed until now, which broke down voting intentions by age group:

16 - 18: 57% No
19 - 45: 56% Yes
46 - older than the rocks amongst which she sits: 57% No

Next time, I suspect today's teens are more likely to change their minds than today's youngish adults.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 3:33 AM
horizontal rule
276

259 was where I came down. Oil is the casino gambling of natural resources.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 3:35 AM
horizontal rule
277

It all seems sort of anti-climactic. I would have voted "No" but "Yes" was definitely the more exciting choice.

There was a good Slate-pitchy piece (maybe it was even in Slate!) I read yesterday about how a "No" vote would doom the UK anyway, assuming the government isn't lying about devo-max.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 4:39 AM
horizontal rule
278

re: 275

In the actual voting, teens were strongly 'Yes'.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:27 AM
horizontal rule
279

Am I the only person here who feels really uneasy at giving 16-year-olds the vote? I wouldn't trust my sixteen-year-old self to cross the road without fucking up.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:34 AM
horizontal rule
280

If they're old enough to need a dress code to keep them from distracting the general population, they're old enough to vote.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:37 AM
horizontal rule
281

I really strongly believe in votes at 16.

I mean, I think they are fucking idiots, but so are 26 year olds, and so are 36 year olds, and so are 66 year olds, so why not?

If it's instrumental reasons, there's no real suggestion that they'll either form a large enough bloc or behave coherently enough to actually alter election outcomes at all, except for very close elections which, really, may as well come down to 16 & 17 year olds as tie-breakers as anything else.

And if it's anything else, well, why not let them vote? It doesn't hurt anyone.

(Also voting's a habit and like any good dealer, you want to hook them young. (Especially in this case, get them while they're still living at home / hooked into community-school-parental obligation networks.))


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:39 AM
horizontal rule
282

re: 279

My 16 year old self was in university, and had a job. I don't have any issue with it, and it seems as good a cut-off age as any. It's the same age you can sign contracts, too.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:42 AM
horizontal rule
283

We could vote at 18 but not sign contracts until 19.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:44 AM
horizontal rule
284

And drive on public roads at 12, but only if it was a tractor.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:48 AM
horizontal rule
285

Anyway, I think 18 is right.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:50 AM
horizontal rule
286

258: Orkney does still exist, but it groans under the twin fascist jackboots (only six to go to make up the full octopus!) of Edinburgh and London.

This is only a slight exaggeration of how our Orcadian B&B runner explained why he was voting no. Broadband was actually fine.

Glad no won. Onward to devo-max.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 5:52 AM
horizontal rule
287

I'm definitely in favour of votes at 16. We let them join the army at 16, for heaven's sake.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:03 AM
horizontal rule
288

I'd also be more opposed that, but it doesn't happen here.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:04 AM
horizontal rule
289

277. The UK is not doomed, but there will be big changes. There would likely have been big changes anyway, because unbeknownst to most foreign correspondents, plans are already being made to transfer significant powers to "city regions" in England, and the Welsh have been flexing their muscles. It's going to be a bumpy ride, but I think the UK in some form has got another generation's life in it.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:24 AM
horizontal rule
290

I'm definitely in favour of votes at 16. We let them join the army at 16, for heaven's sake.

But only with parental permission, so we don't regard them quite as fully-fledged adults yet. But it's also the age at which the state stops being able to send you to school.

Brazil and Argentina, among others (mostly Latin American for some reason) have 16 as the voting age.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:25 AM
horizontal rule
291

Others include Iran, for goodness sake.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:27 AM
horizontal rule
292

288: not for 16-year-olds but 17-year-olds it does.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:28 AM
horizontal rule
293

Anyhow, aside from being able to join the army with a note from your parents most marker-of-adulthood type things in this country are pegged to 16, with the exception of drinking, renting a car (25) and running for national office (25, 30 and 25, for rep, senator and president, respectively).


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:30 AM
horizontal rule
294

16 in 293 should have been 18. I am clearly not old enough to post correctly.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:31 AM
horizontal rule
295

Scotland is, historically, a bit less keen on the 'note from your parents' thing and keener on the 'full adult at 16, except for booze', which is why historically young English people use to elope to Gretna to get married.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:32 AM
horizontal rule
296

I like 16. Making teenagers feel they have a voice will help reduce alienation. Even if democracy is a farce.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:32 AM
horizontal rule
297

I don't know about that. You can't vote, smoke (or at least buy smokes), or own a gun until 18.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:32 AM
horizontal rule
298

297 to 293 before seeing 294.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:33 AM
horizontal rule
299

I didn't realize that legal majority was over 18 in so few states. Only Mississippi, Alabama, and Nebraska. Also Puerto Rico.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:35 AM
horizontal rule
300

293. As I understand it you can't legally fuck in the US until you're 18, which is ridiculous, but in keeping with the rest.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:37 AM
horizontal rule
301

That varies by state. And also by how old the person you want to fuck is.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:39 AM
horizontal rule
302

In 1880, the age of consent was 7 in Delaware.


Posted by: beamish | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 6:44 AM
horizontal rule
303

293.last is actually 35 for president.

I guess one thing this whole business has taught me is that Scotland has a much smaller population than I would have thought. It's just about the same as Minnesota or Denmark. I would have guessed more like 15 millions just off the top of my head. Given that, it seems like just another reason to stay in the Union. If I'd had a vote, I would have voted for getting the Queen off the money, but I can't imagine being a campaigner for one side or the other.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 7:49 AM
horizontal rule
304

So, Salmond has resigned as First Minister. Looks like Scotland will have a female First Minister by November.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-19-14 8:57 AM
horizontal rule