Re: Cuddlr

1

Also I hate cuddling and can only tolerate very small amounts of it with exactly one specific grown person

Then, I'm thinking maybe this isn't for you.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:21 AM
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You just have to find the right subculture.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:22 AM
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Do you enjoy virtual cuddling, heebie?

I remember discovering a usenet group - like alt.hugs or something -- most of the messages were emoticons depicting hugs (other messages were people explaining why they needed a hug).

Did I just make that up?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:29 AM
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Teethbrushr. Huh. It's a little rough but I think we can make it pitchable.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:33 AM
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1: I deleted a sentence to that effect in the OP for being too explicit.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:33 AM
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I can't remember where, but I'm pretty sure I recall places on line with a lot of virtual hugging -- I might be thinking of Salon's Table Talk forums back in 2001 or so?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:33 AM
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Currently there's the nicest place on the internet, offering hugs. I don't find it squicky at all.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:34 AM
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sex is about satisfying your own sex drive

I'm not saying you're a monster...


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:54 AM
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I have the impression that cuddling is very big with a certain segment of nerds who are also likely to use the phrases "poly," "tabletop gaming," and "cosplay." Like, they are always talking about cuddling and cuddle buddies at captainawkward.com.*

*The commenters there are also very free with "Jedi hugs," defined as

An offering of comfort which will not trigger people who do not like being touched or hugged. Also suitable for long-distance/virtual hugs.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:17 AM
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the phrases "poly," "tabletop gaming," and "cosplay."

Dude, a trigger warning next time, OK?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:21 AM
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9, related to 2, gets it right, and is I'd think interestingly related to the various recent blowups about how oblivious male fandom is to the forms its endemic sexism takes.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:24 AM
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"Poly" just means "plastic" in my particular subculture. When you go to the supermarket, they give you a poly bag to put your shopping in.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:27 AM
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8: Dave Chapelle agrees (NSFW).


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:27 AM
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Here you go: The Snuggery. (In a word, gross.)


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:31 AM
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interestingly related to the various recent blowups about how oblivious male fandom is to the forms its endemic sexism takes

Not sure quite what you're getting at here, Tweety. Could you elaborate?


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:32 AM
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This person tried it out, and found that everyone was after sex, after all.

Often I think I just want a cuddle, because I'm sitting alone and no one is touching me and it seems like a cuddle should be enough. But once I actually cuddle, I realize I want sex.

Actually a lot of things in life work like that.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:42 AM
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15: something like... the intense appreciation for cuddling on the part of male nerds particularly is related to something like the Open Source Boob Project in that both are related to a nigh-pathological yearning for intimate human contact coupled with low self-image, which leads to an oft-forlorn wish that people could just engage in intimate contact and emotional closeness without any of the typical knowing or liking or being attracted to the other person being necessary. Which isn't inherently sexist, I suppose, but sort of forecloses thinking too coherently about the other participants' desires.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:43 AM
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I'll buy heebie's argument. Cuddling is about being comfortable and intimate with somebody you care about. Cuddling with a total stranger would just be weird. And if it felt weird in a good way, that would probably be... sexy?


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:47 AM
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17: I had forgotten that ugly fiasco. What the fuck went so wrong with nerds?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:50 AM
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What the fuck went so wrong with nerds?

Long periods of solitude and high availability of porn.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:56 AM
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I'd think, were I in the market for extra cuddling, it would be easier to go down to the SPCA and adopt a stray cat or dog. Versus having a stranger come over and potentially do something weird, like axe-murder me.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:57 AM
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19: It was always there; we were just ignored. Which let it fester in the darkness.

There's was a hilarious-sad twitter flame-up this weekend where Marc Andreessen claimed there were no bros in Silicon Valley, because tech culture is full of nerds and they're the natural enemy of bros. Yeah.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:58 AM
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17: OK, I've never heard of the open source boob thing. I guess I thought you were talking about Gamergate, Elevatorgate, etc., and couldn't see the cuddle connection at all.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:59 AM
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Actually a lot of things in life work like that.

"Long story short, now I have to register my address with the police."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:00 AM
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22.2: Some people (see also the Penny Arcade dudes) have never gotten over high school and have been completely unable to update their self-conception to account for the fact that they are now rich and powerful. You'd think in Andreesen's case though that the actual physical transformation into a supervillain might have done the trick.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:07 AM
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23: Some day we'll find it -- the Cuddle Connection,
The nerds, the perverts, and me


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:11 AM
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Cuddling with a stranger seems much more repulsive than sex with a stranger.

Even more repulsive than that???!

But yeah, the other thing (alright, "cuddle" is one of those words that mildly squicks me) with a stranger, that sounds creepy. Unless it led quickly to sex in which case it sounds fine.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:14 AM
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There's was a hilarious-sad twitter flame-up this weekend where Marc Andreessen claimed there were no bros in Silicon Valley, because tech culture is full of nerds and they're the natural enemy of bros. Yeah.

How oblivious can you get? He might as well say he's fighting the establishment of dowager countesses at the opera.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:16 AM
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Not to derail the thread too much (I had the same misunderstanding as L. in 23), but it really was shocking that he said that. I can't tell whether he actually thinks that or he thinks that there's some propaganda value to keeping that perspective mainstream.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:32 AM
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27: For the last time, back off or at least buy me a drink first.


Posted by: OPINIONATED STOCKARD CHANNING | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:46 AM
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Naturally, Maciej Ceg[l with stroke]owski has been good on this (and also Andreessen's various cluelessnesses).


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:54 AM
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Besides the fact that nerds have their own problematically misogynistic culture, it's also the case that many people on the business side of SV aren't nerds. VCs and MBAs and salespeople are some of the douchiest douches around.


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 8:55 AM
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"cuddle" is one of those words that mildly squicks me

God yes. Like "yummy". Even if, say, Scarlett Johansson herself said, "Let's eat something yummy and then cuddle", I'd be all, uh, I have to go now.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:16 AM
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The thing that rhymes with yummy is still worse, but yes. AND I DON'T MEAN GIN RUMMY. (There is a recipe site called yummly and I won't even use recipes off it because the name is the most annoying thing I've ever heard in my entire.)

Opinionated Stockard Channing made me laugh. I suspect Flippanter.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:38 AM
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Gummy?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:41 AM
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Next: an app for finding strangers for no-touching emotional intimacy.

(Please don't let's make this a thread about reactions to the sounds of words.)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:45 AM
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Tummy?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:45 AM
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Hey so which specific grown person can you tolerate cuddling with, heebs? I hope Jammies is cool with it, whoever it is.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:47 AM
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38 - Bill Murray.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:50 AM
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37 is correct. Somehow I typed that while shuddering.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:50 AM
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"panties" seems to be another word that many find offensive or off-putting (sorry, minivet).


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:52 AM
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Next: an app for finding strangers for no-touching emotional intimacy.

I suppose it is the moment in the life of this thread when this poem should be linked.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:53 AM
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"moist".


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 9:55 AM
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I feel like someone who's completed the drive south through New Jersey and seen the sign for Newark.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:01 AM
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[REDACTED]


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:05 AM
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How much is it the meaning, and how much is it the sound? Is anyone bothered by hoist or joist?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:07 AM
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I feel like someone who's completed the drive south through New Jersey and seen the sign for Newark.

Ace of Base!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:08 AM
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I don't like these cuddle/tummy words much either, but the joy I find in using them around Smearcase and now McQueen outweighs my distaste for them.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:10 AM
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Linda Bean (daughter of L.L.), currently engaged in an effort to make Maine tourist friendly, because apparently it needs that, sells "Linda Bean's Perfect Maine Lobster Cuddlers".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:11 AM
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46: except less Nazi.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:12 AM
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Er 50 to 47, sorry.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:14 AM
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46: I think it must be the sound, because otherwise they'd be bothered by 'damp', right? In fact damp seems like it would be a lot worse, because nobody uses that to describe cake.

I don't know. I don't get it at all.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:15 AM
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reddit AMA from an ex professional cuddler:

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/24mizj/iama_former_professional_snuggler_ama/

apparently divorced men in their 50s are the target consumers.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:16 AM
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42: Admirably on topic, but I dispute that it is a poem.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:17 AM
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Is anyone bothered by hoist or joist?

Rather odd words, neither woody nor tinny.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:17 AM
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It's the correlation of phoneme and meaning. Mucus, mollusk, moldy, moist: all the gross, squishy m-things.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:17 AM
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This app sounds weird, and I'm not at all surprised that it's turning into just another way for people to (probably unsuccessfully) find casual sex. I don't understand the emphasis you see in stuff like this on the importance of non-sexual touch. I mean, non-sexual touch is great and all, but surely there can't be that many people who want it but don't also want sex.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:21 AM
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I was thinking it might have more to do with the vowel sounds (in particular longer vowel sounds, esp. but not necessarily diphthongs), but I could see labial or labiodental consonants also having an effect. Any "b" or "v" words for anyone where that constant seems relevant?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:21 AM
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Is anyone bothered by hoist or joist?

46: except less Nazi.

Yes, more Nazi would be Horst and Johst.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:23 AM
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constant->consonant


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:23 AM
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Johst, incidentally, sounding quite mcmanus in this quote:

And then, you're right in the middle of a parley and they say: Hands up! You're disarmed..., you republican voting swine!--No, let 'em keep their good distance with their whole ideological kettle of fish ... I shoot with live ammunition!

Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:24 AM
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Any "b" or "v" words for anyone where that constant seems relevant?

VAGINA


Posted by: Maude Lebowski | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:24 AM
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What is the purported relevance of labial/labiodental consonants?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:26 AM
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62: Obviously but I don't think the "v" is relevant there--that's why for insults the productive part is the "-gina." My hypothesis is that the phonological squickishness is the stressed long i, especially in the context of the soft g.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:27 AM
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63: Sifu suggested it was the "m" sound. So I figured it'd be worth looking at other sounds with similar mouth movement.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:29 AM
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Because the obvious point is to come up with weaponizable nonce words.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:33 AM
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I really doubt there's much of a phonological component to this reaction to words, or at least that it plays a much larger role than the semantics.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:33 AM
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66: Moist'Dib.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:34 AM
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I refuse to apologize for enjoying cuddling with nosflow, bitch, heebie, and blume.

I did think nosflow was older before we cuddled.


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:37 AM
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64: There's a very odd passage in one of the last Nero Wolfe books -- written, and sort of taking place in the 1970s, but of course Archie hasn't aged or changed much since the 1930s. Somehow, this turns into his talking to a Women's Libber about how words for the male genitalia start with p -- "penis", "prick" -- while words for the female genitalia start with v -- "vulva", "vagina" -- so it's sexist that words for urination start with p as well -- "piss", "pee".

One of those moments where you're reading and think that the author just completely slipped off the rails for a bit.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:37 AM
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But then why do people not get squicked out by, as L. suggested, "damp"? Why is "tummy" bothersome but not--or at least no one's suggested--"belly"? I actually find the word "squick" itself kind of gross sounding but "gross" doesn't bother me.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:38 AM
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Do people with this reaction to words actually remember having it, say, ten years ago, significantly before it started being talked about online? I get a huge vibe of social construction around the whole thing - not that that makes such a reaction non-genuine, of course.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:38 AM
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72.last: Yes, very much so.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:41 AM
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My hypothesis is that the phonological squickishness is the stressed long i, especially in the context of the soft g.

Certainly my 60s adolescent immigrant self got lots of giggles pronouncing the largest city in Saskatchewan in the English latin way, with a long i. Kids who knew the word at all--mostly Catholics--pronounced it with a short i.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:41 AM
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"Moist" seems to be a special case. I know several people with an extreme distaste for it, and I couldn't say that about any other word.

"by Sharon Olds" is as far as I got with the poem in 42. She's great and everything, but it's too early in the morning to provoke emotional upset.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:42 AM
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I know. I was screaming, "awkwardly formatted prose isn't a poem."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:43 AM
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74: Really? Like "rejinna"?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:43 AM
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70: There was a similar passage in a Neal Stephenson book--probably Cryptonomicon--where a protagonist's ex is a straw-feminist who, to get back at him, writes a well-received paper about how having a beard is imperialist and sexist because only white men can grow luxurious full beards like the protagonist has. Makes me think that as bad as men (writing for men) can be at writing women, we're particularly bad at writing feminists.

72: The first time I heard about it I definitely recognized some mild aversion in some of the words in the canonical set, but it's probably been intensified by the feedback.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:44 AM
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"Slather" is kind of gross but also kind of fun to say. Slather, slather, slather.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:46 AM
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I wonder if it's part of the same general hyperprescriptive linguistic atmosphere we have now, at least in the subpopulation that considers usage a valid conversational topic. (From which I only tore myself away over the past 5 years.) Going along with hypercorrection of passive voice, etc.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:53 AM
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77:

Shouldn't have said short, I guess. I mean like "Geena."

Our friend JPJ is both RC and Canadian, and probably grew up using the word with either pronunciation depending on context.

If the Queen of England one way, if the Queen of Heaven the other.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:53 AM
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A quick search indicates that the Olds poem has been referenced once previously on the blog. Also another one, which I had to go and read. Guess what? Emotionally upsetting. My first encounter with her work turned out to be kind of a bizarre coincidence, which I'm tempted to relate but for its, you know, emotional upset.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:55 AM
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But then why do people not get squicked out by, as L. suggested, "damp"? Why is "tummy" bothersome but not--or at least no one's suggested--"belly"?

Well, do we know that there aren't people who get squicked out by those other words? Maybe there are. In any case, I'm not seeing any consistent phonological pattern to the words people object to that distinguishes them from other English words.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 10:58 AM
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I really dislike the common word for passing gas.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:06 AM
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"ogging"?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:07 AM
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I'm okay with ogging.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:08 AM
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Are you ok with "ogging"?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:10 AM
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I think all of the words mentioned have an /i/ sound (not necessarily stressed) or a diphthong, except for "cuddle". When I think of words that affect me there's usually a sound you can linger on that mostly strong triggers the aversion in me. I agree that the semantic part of it is important but it's apparently not sufficient.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:11 AM
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Thanks for 77. I was trying to figure out what was dirty about "Saskatoon".


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:14 AM
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I think all of the words mentioned have an /i/ sound (not necessarily stressed) or a diphthong

I think that's just because lots of English words contain /i/ or a diphthong, and you've already given one counterexample (heebie gives another in 84).

When I think of words that affect me there's usually a sound you can linger on that mostly strong triggers the aversion in me.

That could well be the trigger in practice, but I suspect it mostly follows from the semantic aversion rather than leading it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:15 AM
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More like bask-a-poon, right? Right?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:15 AM
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I was just bullshitting since I don't really have much in the way of word aversion (well, I'm not a fan of "festive"). But by all means let's not leave it at that. I was thinking the mo or moi or mu (don't make me use IPA! I can't! I can't!) felt too much like you were sucking down an oyster and that was obviously not the sensation you wanted to experience when discussing cake.

Same reason a lot of people don't like Boise.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:17 AM
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"Snuggle": worse or better than "cuddle"? I think maybe marginally better, but both imply the horrifying prospect of not having sex.

89: I wish "Saskatoon" were somehow inherently dirty, but I've been to the place it denotes, and it's pretty clean.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:18 AM
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I was thinking the mo or moi or mu (don't make me use IPA! I can't! I can't!)

You actually pretty much are, for those specific sounds at least.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:18 AM
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90: Enh, sure. (And I do have some aversion to some short vowel words, but it feels different in ways I can't quantify yet.) So how would an experiment have to be structured to test this? Tell people that a nonce word means something about wetness or personal intimacy or body parts, use it in context a few times, and see how they react, measured against known-common-triggers and words unlikely to trigger?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:21 AM
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92: Boise would fit really well into my hypothesis. What a disgusting-sounding place.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:22 AM
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Which is grosser to get slapped in the face with on a first date: a Beusser or a Vebby?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:23 AM
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96: Except that it's pretty dry. If it were on the other side of the Cascades, sure.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:27 AM
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So how would an experiment have to be structured to test this? Tell people that a nonce word means something about wetness or personal intimacy or body parts, use it in context a few times, and see how they react, measured against known-common-triggers and words unlikely to trigger?

First you'd probably have to just present the nonce words in isolation and ask questions about the reaction they produce, then maybe you'd follow up with something like that.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:27 AM
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If you stuck your hand in a dark cabinet, would you be more disturbed if there was a Splunger or a Woig in there?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:30 AM
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One of the rooms in the Roosevelt house in Hyde Park is called The Snuggery.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:30 AM
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What's a grosser adjective for a pie: "slerp" or "fenny"?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:30 AM
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100, 102: I want to see this research done with actual situations rather than hypothetical questions. "Eat one of these slices of pie. The one on the left is a little slerp, while the one on the right is kind of fenny. Then you have your choice of putting the dirty dishes in the dishwasher, watching out for the splunger therein, or the dumbwaiter, which is occupied by a woig."

And then see what people do.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:35 AM
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Saskatoon certainly larger now, can't tell if it always was but I think not.

My dad, a civilian naval employee, entered the uniform service in 1943. He'd never been more than a few miles from salt water in his life, but was sent to Regina for naval training, one of those things everybody laughed about then. He stayed in touch with the guys he trained with for the rest of his life, and we'd visit them on trips.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:36 AM
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Beusser, splunger, fenny.

But "slerp" doesn't really work because "slurp pie" runs together.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:36 AM
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In the last part of 103, it sounds as if the splunger is just part of the dishwasher (you know, it's probably the part that springs up and shoots water out) while the woig is a creature of some kind—probably a rodent with rough fur and poisonous spittle—that lives in the dumbwaiter. So that might influence outcomes.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:38 AM
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Also because "slerp" and "slurp" are indistinguishable to the ear and, sometimes, to the writer.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:38 AM
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103: Try getting that study approved by a University Research Ethics Committee.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:38 AM
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I'm glad that you guys are committed to improving the experimental validity of my comments.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:39 AM
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Is there a good word for when Ace's hair gets stuck in her snot? That's pretty gross.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:40 AM
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110: snoinger.

The other day Zardoz's bangs were glued to her forehead with snot.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:41 AM
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110: Snaired?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:41 AM
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Woigs are small creatures, about the length of a pinky finger, that live in symbiosis with the bandersnatch.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:43 AM
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After reading that sentence, very few study participants were willing to walk through the door marked "symbiosis".


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:46 AM
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You are presented with a dish in a fancy restaurant which is served raw. Would it be better if it was a Lummy or a Meps?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:52 AM
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Lummy.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:57 AM
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Is the meps fresh? Locally sourced?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 11:58 AM
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One of my all time great deposition moments, for which I was entirely unprepared:
"Please describe your educational background."
"I grew up in Saskatoon, got my accounting degree at the university in Regina . . ."
"You got your degree in her WHAT?"*

*I didn't actually say.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:02 PM
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You are presented with a dish in a fancy restaurant which is served raw. Would it be better if it was a Lummy or a Meps?

Mushi sushi.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:09 PM
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Also because "slerp" and "slurp" are indistinguishable to the ear

What? No they're not.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:22 PM
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I, like other southern Californians, have a limited stock of vowel sounds.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:27 PM
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Is 121 something you're doing to save water in this time of drought?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:36 PM
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I don't have the slerp-slurp split natively, but I can pass for having it if the situations requires.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:38 PM
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As a conscientious Californian, Neb moves his vowels daily.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:38 PM
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Is Josh claiming that slurp and derp don't rhyme?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:47 PM
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Josh's views about what rhymes with what are notoriously insane.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:49 PM
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I have lots of vowels, natively, but if there's a difference between how I'd say slerp and slurp, it's the barest shadow of a hint.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:50 PM
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I read somewhere that in southern California "back" is moving toward being pronounced like "bock." I had wondered what the story on the LA accent was since watching the SNL thingy with all the highway names that made fun of it.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:51 PM
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Guessing here, but for me slerp and slurp are both /sleɹpʰ/ while slurp for Josh would be maybe /slʊɹpʰ/.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:54 PM
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125, 126: I would accept "slurp" and "derp" as a rhyme even while I would say that the vowel sounds are distinguishable. nosflow's views about what constitutes a rhyme are notoriously strict.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:54 PM
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129: Yeah basically.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:57 PM
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Copypaste fail, that should have been sləɹpʰ for me, of course, because it really matters.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 12:59 PM
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I'm going to need audio of ttaM saying slerp and slurp before I believe there's a possible difference.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:00 PM
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I just learned about yod-dropping and now I'm wondering what words I say yodlessly have yodfulness encoded into them.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:03 PM
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I just learned about yod-dropping

They should have told you to get a yod-litter box when you adopted your yod.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:08 PM
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I pronounce "slerp" as "syrup" and "slurp" as "sizzurp", so yes.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:11 PM
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You don't pronounce the L in either case? Is that because it's after an S?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:16 PM
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I never pronounce any Ls. I don't think I'm alone in this?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:18 PM
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For instance, heebie pronounces "dalriata" as /dArE/


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:20 PM
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Oh, huh, I didn't know that. I'll look into it. There are (at least) two L phonemes in English--does this hold for both of them? Do you pronounce "less" the same as the letter "s" and "apple" "a-puh"?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:21 PM
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I suppose I sometimes transpose things, so there is an L in there. I think I say "alp-puh".


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:23 PM
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I don't find 138, even modified by 141, remotely plausible.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:29 PM
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WHAT?!?! Pronounced "what".


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:30 PM
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Anything is pausibuh, neb.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:31 PM
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In heebie's accent "Chumley" is not a surprisingly truncated pronunciation of "Cholmondeley", but simply how the word sounds.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:32 PM
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Does it bother people when I say chummy?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:32 PM
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Heebie pronounces "trolling one's own blog" as "troeing one's own bog".


Posted by: MAE | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:33 PM
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My actual pseud is heeblie-geeblie, but I opted for the phonetic version.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:34 PM
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Chummy chummy chummy I got scum in my tummy


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:34 PM
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hele-biegeel bie


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:35 PM
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I don't really understand IPA, but am I right that 129 is describing a hint of short u in slurp? Like, he starts to say "slum", then end with "urp"?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:35 PM
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Well, 149 could have been much worse.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:35 PM
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I would just like to take this opportunity to put a word in against "hubby".


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:35 PM
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Transposition isn't uncommon in consonant clusters; I do that for a few fixed words but I forget offhand what they are. I read up a bit on it here and here; L-dropping seems to mainly correspond to rhotic dialects, with Irish and General American not really doing it but AAVE and most British accents do. Nothing on any of the Southern accents, but I don't even know if you're rhotic or non-rhotic.

So I guess I'm not that surprised about the end-of-syllable [ɫ] but I am surprised that you drop word-initial /l/.

(My confusion was heightened by the fact that you and I probably don't pronounce "syrup" the same way, either.)


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:36 PM
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All you thinking about is clum, helebie.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:36 PM
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Dalriata catches up on the last ten comments in 3...2....1...


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:37 PM
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151: That's how I was trying to represent how I say it actually...I think. I screw up r-colored vowels, though--the way a plain vowel and the same vowel with an r after it sound pretty different to me.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:38 PM
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156: C'mon. Trolling me isn't even worth it.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:40 PM
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I would just like to take this opportunity to put a word in against "hubby".

Relatedly, yhe whole world of acronyms in the women's messaging boards is a bit hard to handle. (DH, DD, DS, and the very, very worst: BD.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:40 PM
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BD

Bear dusband?


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:43 PM
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...baby daddy?


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:43 PM
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Let's all suspend our gag reflexes: On the TTC boards - that's Trying To Concieve - BD stands for Baby Dance.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:44 PM
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159 just shows that heebie doesn't hang out on adoption boards, several of which I'm involved in have had to bar people from using BM.

153 is just leaving me disappointed that I can't quite come up with a plausible pickup line to use on snarkout in response. (I was about to say I'm clocking out now, but I don't want heebie to be alarmed that it means I've gotten drastic plastic surgery.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:44 PM
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When I googled it just now, it looks like it does stand for Baby Daddy in a lot of contexts, which is why I threw in the TTC part.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:45 PM
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(I was about to say I'm clocking out now, but I don't want heebie to be alarmed that it means I've gotten drastic plastic surgery.)

I laughed.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:46 PM
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I have a friend who consistently refers to her husband on fb as "the hubbz" which is, the panel will agree, worse than "hubby."


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:47 PM
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I call Blume "my wibber"; any issues there?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:48 PM
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I call Jammies Jammies. Is that gross?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:51 PM
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I have a friend who consistently refers to her husband on fb as "the hubbz" which is, the panel will agree, worse than "hubby."

If it's our mutual Austin acquaintance, I'll be entertained.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 1:52 PM
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128: I assumed it was related to the Ahhnold Ahhccent - "I'll be bock."


Posted by: Dave W. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:02 PM
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I never pronounce any Ls. I don't think I'm alone in this?

Maybe not exactly the same thing, but what is up with that initial L sound that so many broadcasters do? I'm thinking of maybe Tom Brokaw and a bunch of NPR people. It's, like, velarized or something?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:09 PM
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Good job on that masterful trolling, heebs.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:13 PM
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153 is just leaving me disappointed that I can't quite come up with a plausible pickup line to use on snarkout in response.

Hubba-hubba!


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:21 PM
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171: I'm not familiar with that; you wouldn't happen to have a link? Preferably one where Brokaw isn't trolling.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:29 PM
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If we identify General American with broadcaster English, Wikipedia supports your hypothesis of a velarized clear L.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:33 PM
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174: I don't, and unfortunately I'm not so determined to procrastinate that I'll look for one, but it's like pronouncing the more common (alveolar?) L without the tip of the tongue touching. I'll post a link if I happen to find one; you'll totally recognize what I'm thinking.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:40 PM
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169: I am sad to report that it is not.

Oh here's a horrible one: "husbear." People actually say this. They do.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:47 PM
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+about


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:47 PM
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The husbear is married to the ... wink?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:48 PM
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Heh, you're definitely right--I just tried to produce an over-the-top velarized initial L and I was surprised by how much more authoritative I sounded. God I'm stupid.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:49 PM
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On Moist and other words (NSFW).


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 2:57 PM
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I just watched a youtube video about the difference between light L and dark L. I don't hear it. Kind of want to change my name to Dark L. though.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:08 PM
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172: thank you. It's a craft, really.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:09 PM
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181: GUSSET???


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:11 PM
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And thus was Thorn's gusset fetish revealed.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:13 PM
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Do you have something about gussets? They're probably one of the best inventions of their millennium! I am all about the gussets. (No treble.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:17 PM
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Something AGAINST gussets. I find it so baffling I can't even write about it!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:17 PM
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I personally have nothing against gussets, and didn't even know what they were until I saw your comment and googled. I had seen the comic linked in 181 before, so I had seen the word.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:22 PM
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182: You totally should! At least for Halloween, or if you need to distinguish yourself from an alternate reality doppelgänger.

The way I'd describe the difference in sound is that I usually have a slight flap to my light L (try "let"--if you don't feel it, try overpronouncing it in a haughty upper-class English way) but I don't in the dark L (try, well, "L." --if you do feel a flap, try clipping it off or pronouncing it faster. Your tongue should also be touching the roof of your mouth further back).


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:36 PM
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There's a certain light connotation attached to the word "panties." Can we find another name for them?


Posted by: Opinionated Joseph Welch | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:37 PM
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The dark L is made with the back of the tongue at the back of the mouth. The light L is made with the front of the tongue at the front of the mouth. We always start words with the light L, I believe. We sometimes end words with the dark L, especially the word "ball".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:53 PM
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191 is correct.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:54 PM
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Huh. I remember having a conversation once about whether the word "walk" contains any 'l' sound; I thought that it does, and everyone else I was talking to thought it doesn't. I guess I probably pronounce it with a "dark L"?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 3:59 PM
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Or maybe I don't and this is one of those occasions when what I think I say is not what I actually say.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:01 PM
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191 is correct; I was trying to find a different way to express it than you'd find on the first video that comes up on Youtube. I have a dark L in my "walk" but there's also a non-standard process called L-vocalization in which dark L's turn into vowel sounds.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:03 PM
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No, hrm, maybe I don't. Not sure. Apparently it's standard not to pronounce an L sound at all.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:05 PM
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191 is what youtube said. I find that I always have my tongue at the front of my mouth when I make an L, even in 'ball'. If I try to do it with the back of my tongue, all that comes out is a kind of choking sound. It certainly doesn't sound authoritative. In fact as I sit here and try it, the dog is wuffing concernedly.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:05 PM
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I feel like someone who's completed the drive south through New Jersey and seen the sign for Newark.

The sign this evokes for me is "Trenton makes, the world takes", which I always want to read as passive-aggressive somehow, but... that's not for Newark.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:12 PM
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I find that I always have my tongue at the front of my mouth when I make an L, even in 'ball'.

Not unusual at all, hence the "sometimes" in 191. The basic deal is that English has only one /l/ phoneme, and the distinction between "light" and "dark" is not meaningful. The phonetic realization of the phoneme therefore varies from speaker to speaker and, for some but not all speakers, changes according to the phonetic environment of the l. There may be some dialects that do this more regularly than others, but I believe in most American dialects the variation is pretty free with the light version generally dominant.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:13 PM
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If I try to do it with the back of my tongue, all that comes out is a kind of choking sound.

This, though, sounds like you're trying to do it too far back in the mouth. It's not really the back of the tongue so much as the mid-back part, and it should be touching forward of the uvula.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:14 PM
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darklr, the new pronunciation app.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:18 PM
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Listen to a Russian speaking English and you will really hear the dark L.

The British sitcom Coupling had some recurring punchline about the word "gusset" and I didn't know what one was so I never got it.


Posted by: Mister Smearcase | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:50 PM
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I assume the scandalous aspect of gussets is in fact the gussets in panties or something similar, but that seems pretty pitiful to me.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 4:54 PM
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What is that word for when you put a sort of oxbow-shaped bend in a rope, without actually looping it? The word "gusset" reminds me of it, but it's not it.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:11 PM
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205

A bight?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:13 PM
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206

What the actual fuck?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:14 PM
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Listen to a Russian speaking English and you will really hear the dark L.

Thanks, Smearcase! All this gibberish about tongue positioning, and all I had to do was a Natasha Badanov impression. I can totally do it now.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:16 PM
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The L in 'squirrel' is light. The L in 'moose and squirrel' is dark.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:22 PM
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From the link in 206:

The unusual conference is part of a global campaign launched this month to get 100,000 men and boys involved in the fight for gender equality, which the United Nations had hoped would be achieved by 2015. That deadline won't be met; in an interview this year, the head of UN Women, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcuka, said projections indicate that if things don't change, achieving gender equality will take 95 years.

Someone thought that gender equality would be achieved in 2015?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:25 PM
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Blume was teaching our party guests the word "gusset" this past weekend.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:26 PM
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181: Oglaf is the best.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:31 PM
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A google search for "gusset" turns up some surprising inline images on the first results page.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:32 PM
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gusset unsexy


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:33 PM
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206: The Global Gender Gap Report 2013 compiled by the World Economic Forum ranked Iceland top in gender equality in economic, health and other matters.

I'll give Iceland the benefit of the doubt on this one meeting.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:34 PM
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Majority,,213-- sorry, google "gusset unsexy" and everything will bcome clear


Posted by: Yorker | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:35 PM
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215 wa me damn autocorrxt


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:36 PM
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I'm offended on behalf of all the underwear models who show up when you search gusset unsexy. Like, come on. That's harsh.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:38 PM
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Where is there supposed to be a gusset in underpants, though? Especially a thong? Or do chicks in thongs just always show up no matter what search terms one uses


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:40 PM
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All this gibberish about tongue positioning, and all I had to do was a Natasha Badanov impression. I can totally do it now.

... are we still talking about accents?


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:42 PM
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Oh, for those who don't follow the link in 206: Iceland is announcing a U.N. conference on women and gender equality -- and only men and boys are invited.

It might be more interesting to ask, but it is fun to speculate as to why the Icelanders, best feminists in the world, think a segregated discussion of women's issues would be more effective in changing men (presuming it is only men that need changing). One can assume, based on the ranking shown in 214, that it is based on successful experience.

You have my permission, if you need it, to put the blame entirely on men for a presumed ineffectiveness of mixed-gender discourse. Cause I'm a...


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:44 PM
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207: BORIS Badenov. Natasha Fatale. They never actually married, did they? Or not for non-nefarious reasons? I really only ever get to see the Bullwinkle dvd Mara's obsessed with over and over, so I don't have a good sense of the full story arc or anything.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 5:52 PM
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Maybe they just didn't change their names.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:05 PM
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206/214: I sort of agree with bob? There might be good reasons to have a one-off mens-only conference on feminism, if it's being run by responsible moderators.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:13 PM
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205: Thanks.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:41 PM
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I'll have to remember "sound like Natasha."

I don't buy the "Iceland is feminist so there must be a good reason". What's the point of it? I could understand having a mens-only discussion on the level of encouraging good behavior in individual men, but when talking about global polities that doesn't add up.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 6:55 PM
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198: Newark, DE?


Posted by: Yawnoc | Link to this comment | 09-29-14 7:02 PM
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226: I assume so. I had been unable to parse that sentence yesterday: "The feeling you get when you've been driving in one direction for hours, yet somehow end up where you began?"


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 09-30-14 6:17 AM
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I interpreted it to mean someone driving to the airport from Upper Manhattan and finding even that little bit of New Jersey exhausting. Delaware makes more sense.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-30-14 6:21 AM
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166 et al

I've heard 'boyfriend' referred to as "boyf" or "the boyf," which we must all admit is the worst.

There are at least some people in the anti-racism movement who think that basic racism 101 stuff is best as a whites only sort of thing, because that way other white people can do the basic teaching/helping people sort through their baggage. The rationale is that it's a tedious task and dealing with racist people figuring out their stuff is less frustrating and emotionally draining for white people than it is for POC. I've taught some anti-racist workshops and the sort of stuff people say is really offensive. If I were a POC I'd probably find it harder to keep my cool.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 09-30-14 9:32 AM
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Kind of want to change my name to Dark L. though.

That's the alternate-universe L., presumably. The one where LizardBreath is in-house counsel for Goldman Sachs and nosflow can't use punctuation correctly.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-30-14 9:54 AM
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There are at least some people in the anti-racism movement who think that basic racism 101 stuff is best as a whites only sort of thing

These people have clearly never heard a Chinese person say what he thinks about Nigerians. Blimey.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-30-14 9:57 AM
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Boyf written down doesn't bother me (it's a long word to type out), but actually saying it would.

I assume that anyone who says they don't like "moist" is an unimaginative bandwagon-jumper-onner.

C hates "supper" so sometimes I will offer him some supper on purpose. I don't mind "tummy" at all, but I really don't like "belly", and I never say it. Took me a long time to say bellybutton. And I don't like "fart" either.

dh/dd/etc I've been reading for [looks at 16 year old across the table and does sums] about 15.5 years (in newsgroups first of all), I'm immunised and use them without thinking if I'm in that environment. It annoys me when people complain about them as if they're some newfangled cutesy thing those dang women have dreamt up. (Like fucking bloggers who think blogs were invented about 4 1/2 years ago.)


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 09-30-14 10:04 AM
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Okay, here's what I was talking about. Here's Ira Glass doing the L thing, which strikes me as different from an ordinary dark L: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2y8f_8teVc (listen for the way he pronounces "love" at 1:00). Here's Tom Brokaw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV_041oYDjg (several times just in the first thirty seconds). It's like a dark L pronounced with the tip of the tongue against the lower teeth. The distinctive thing to me is that they do it with initial L, not just medial or final. I've only known a few people IRL who do that, but I can think of several broadcasters who do, so that's what made me wonder if there's some connection.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-30-14 11:06 AM
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