Re: Guest Post - Damage

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I actually had a harder time with the emotional tension than with the physical stuff. Then again, I am an especially sensitive flower, so maybe it's not hard to read for anyone else.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 10:48 AM
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Really good, really hard to read.


Posted by: torque | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 11:07 AM
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Christ.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 11:10 AM
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I agree - an excellent essay, and much less difficult to read than I would have expected given the subject matter.


Posted by: parodie | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 11:31 AM
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Damn that was good; enlarged my world.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 11:38 AM
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That was great, but extremely hard to read.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 1:31 PM
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Yeah, read the whole thing. Dabbling in Hindi Cinema and Gayatri Spivak (still ~1500 dowry burnings a year, kerosene the current choice, Eve teasing) my previous feelings toward India, all of it, are becoming hardened. I get hints I need to read more Spivak (on sati). I do like her quite a lot.

Looking thru my notes (Sageeta Ray on Spivak, with long selections):

Feminism and feminism alone (and vehemently not mainstream feminism) for Spivak can deconstruct masculinist universalism as well as correct the errant performances of feminist practices that reinscribe literary "heroines of the North Atlantic traditions in a singular and individualist way and the collective presence of women elsewhere in a pluralized and inchoate fashion" (ibid.). If feminism continues to participate in a postcolonialism always cast as migrant hybridism, "the South is once again in shadow; the diasporic stands in for the native informant" (CPR, 169). The inclusion of Devi's novella Pterodactyl in a chapter on literature that begins with a deconstruction of the tropes of a masculinist individualism recast in female robes is a challenge to critical practices that continue to domesticate the South for a palatable consumption in/by the North.

that migrancy cannot be celebrated ad infinitum.
It has its radical limit in the lives of those who choose to stay in the same place. "We need not value this limit for itself, but we must take it into account" (CPR, 402); we may then learn to appreciate other
epistemes that challenge our own ready conclusions"


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 1:32 PM
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This was an interesting aside: "I knew that I could get back to the longform journalism I was eager to do if I moved back to Pakistan, where I could market myself to a U.S. audience".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 4:03 PM
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Green Bay coach demonstrating why the old school is the old school on field goals from 4th & short inside the opponent's 5.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 4:49 PM
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Great finish to what had been a pretty sloppy game through 3+ quarters.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 4:51 PM
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Dude, 40 comment rule?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 5:12 PM
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Seattle player rides a non-stationary bike on sideline after game to satisfy Unfogged thread trajectiry requirements.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 5:15 PM
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Oops , sorry . Allin the wrong thread. Thought this was the poor loser one. Apologies. Very inappropriate.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 5:16 PM
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I blame phone. Or the nut that holds it, actually.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 5:18 PM
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Comment numbers, how do they work?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 5:19 PM
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There's a tip jar at the bottom. I kicked down.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 5:38 PM
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I thought the threadjack "rule" was more of a suggestion. Also, holiday weekend, this depresso post isn't getting 40 comments. Not that I wish to defend Stormcrow, who is selfish and inconsiderate and discussing a barbaric game (that had an awesome finish).


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 5:56 PM
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I utterly and aggressively disavow the first part of ogged's insensitive comment.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 6:00 PM
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It's not a holiday weekend in Arizona.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 6:01 PM
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Did I mention that Stormcrow is also a suck-up?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 6:08 PM
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You're supposed to kick up, dude.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 6:08 PM
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7:where I could market myself to a U.S. audience"

Yeah, the structure saving the punchline or reveal til the end of the long article was perfect for an American audience.

One of the boy love/yaoi articles surveyed American readers for their expectations, what they wanted in their BL manga. Very high on American girls priorities, and contrasting to Japanese preferences (different identity formations), were "coming-out scenes" and "social persecution scenes."


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 6:18 PM
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best game in the history of football


Posted by: urtple | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 6:20 PM
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8 struck me too, and I found the ruminations on family dynamics fascinating. I'm under the weather and too stupid to say much more.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 6:34 PM
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Wow. Flash. From a review of the Brooks Melodramatic Imagination

"The melodramatic structure, shaped by high moral conflict and determined by its motion towards a final revelation of virtue as innocence"

Yeah, the classic French play Brook uses as an example has a father losing his land and position due to lies of his brother; his virgin daughter traveling like from Lvov to Paris on foot; gaining an audience with the King and uncovering a hidden document that vindicates and restores.

Compare with the linked post. No saying there is untruth in it; just that the structure is designed to create affects.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 6:43 PM
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I thought the threadjack "rule" was more of a suggestion.

Depends entirely on how much favor the commenter has curried with the OPP.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 7:02 PM
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Yeah, you know me.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 7:03 PM
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On topic again.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 7:51 PM
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9 gets it exactly right. And female genital mutilation is definitely bad. Bad bad bad.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 01-18-15 8:59 PM
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The Packers tried to use female genital mutilation to beat the Seahaws? Now I'm really glad the Seahawks won.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:28 AM
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I could look at 9 all day and not have any idea what it means, or what might prove it false. Surely what makes something old school is a Latin motto.


Posted by: Nworb Werdna | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 1:31 AM
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"old school" means "old fashioned", so Latin motto fits. JP is saying that kicking the field goal on 4th down at the 1 yard line is old fashioned, and not the current fashion, because it's stupid. In yesterday's game, if Green Bay had gotten a touchdown instead of a field goal, they would have won.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 4:02 AM
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32 doesn't really answer the question, in that if it's stupid now it was stupid then. So the implication is either that coaches in the olden days were less intelligent than they are are now, which seems unlikely, or that there used to be a rule or something which prevented teams doing the right thing.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 4:19 AM
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32: Yes they were kicking it old school to coin a phrase.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 4:45 AM
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33: Nor has anyone ever found $5 on lying on the ground.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 4:46 AM
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23: I did like that in the end the game hinged on the successful completion of the rare Hail Mary for a 2-point conversion.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 4:48 AM
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26: I am generally not a fan of formulaic rules like the "40 comment rule", but in this case it my football comments represented a jarring and inappropriate transition. And everyone who has continued with comments on that topic is a monster.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 4:52 AM
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33: In fact, this is one of the places where relatively recent complete databases of game situations has allowed crisper analysis of the expected changes in points scored for the various choices (see the NY Times 4th down bot write-up for instance--this situation would be in the top right of the chart).

And it also is probably true that the relative success rate of going for it vs. relative certainty of a field goal from that position has changed over the years


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 4:59 AM
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38: Some of it may be due to the fact that coaches are in fact maximizing a different personal utility function which includes the reactions of their management, fans, media and players. Moneyball is all about the societal and organizational constraints on optimization based on these kinds of analyses.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 5:09 AM
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33: It has generally proven, at least in American sports, that a bunch of conventional strategic wisdom was stupid. Coaches patting themselves on the back for their wisdom and experience has turned out to be a poor substitute for actual statistics.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 6:02 AM
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On the OP, the article was really good, but my only reaction is to really, really want to punch somebody. Can we go dig up the grandfather's grave?


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 6:06 AM
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I can't imagine the feeling of realizing that you'd had something done to you that would permanently affect the rest of your life in a really meaningful way, by people who didn't really understand or necessarily value the significance of what they'd done to you.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 6:18 AM
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My (previously-vocally-racist-about-black-people) relatives have switched their vocally expressed enmity to Muslims, specifically recent immigrants who engage in such controversial behavior as wearing a head scarf. They (the racist relatives) say things like, "Everyone knows they're practicing polygamy right here in [suburban Chicago]. And they still do that surgery with the clitoris."

It's not totally clear to me how "everyone knows," because I assume if "everyone'" includes the police, then more people would be getting charged with malicious wounding if it really were true.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 6:53 AM
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40 is certainly true, and it was probably always stupid, but it's also true that changes to the rulebook have made football a much more offense-friendly game than it was decades ago, so what might have been prudent then is cowardice now.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 7:56 AM
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||

My fucking siblings and spouses are so fucking impossible. How did I turn out so great? I'm so frustrated I want to scream.

|>


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 9:30 AM
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I don't know, you did end up marrying all these insufferable spouses.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 9:31 AM
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Genes and environment. How the fuck do they work?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 9:33 AM
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How did I turn out so great?

Years of reading and commenting on Unfogged, of course.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 9:37 AM
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My mom turns 70 this summer. It would be nice if we all got together.

Mom's requirement: someplace less hot than Florida.
East Coast sibling: will only take Friday off, and maintains that it's not worth travelling off the East Coast if you've only got Friday-Sunday.
West Coast sibling: will take one week off, but will only travel on Saturdays if they have to go across the whole country.

Fucking awesome, you guys. (There are other impossible stipulations - the place must be appealingly upscale, must have a swimming pool, and so on - but the road block is so much more elementary that we can't even get to Advance Impossible Siblings.)

|>


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 9:42 AM
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49: For the cost of a trip, you could buy one of these and use it to talk to whichever sibling won't travel.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 9:48 AM
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Re the OP: I thought it was well written; as others mentioned, the structure of the story was selected well to develop empathy. The tension with her mom and its injustice was very familiar and it was easy enough to find parallels in my own life.

Buttercup's 42 is the horrifying take away; that what was done wasn't much considered, though it affects the rest of her life.


Posted by: Mooseking | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 9:58 AM
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Is it possible to let those two take the lead and duke it out and you just come in afterwards with clean up? Or would nothing happen in that case?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:00 AM
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42 seems like it would actually be a lot more common than just FGM. I don't want to be all "They fuck you up," but look at the OPP's grandpa and the implications his making a choice that seemed right to him have had.... I certainly see that in my daughters' lives and I may be doing things that also turn out to be damaging.

And Ladybird, I'm so sorry they stay awful. I feel extra bad for all the little cousins held hostage by this nonsense, but mostly for you.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:02 AM
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Negotiate with them for a little more but not too enthusiastically. Then closer to the actual date of the birthday throw up your hands and tell the two of them to figure it out for themselves. If it they can't come to some sort of resolution in time just go on your own and explain to your mother that they must not love her as much as you do. Then ask whether she has updated her will recently.


Posted by: Opinionated Niccolo Machiavelli | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:04 AM
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Is it possible to let those two take the lead and duke it out and you just come in afterwards with clean up? Or would nothing happen in that case?

My (realistic) fear is that they'll end up with two separate vacations and we'll be forced to pick between the two families. Obviously we could do a third, separate visit to my parents in that case, but it's been a long time since I've seen either sibling and I really would like to see them.

Also this will go down as "the time we tried and failed to make it work" which means it will be years before it gets tried again.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:06 AM
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49: And you're stuck optimizing the impossible and trying to please. My best ideas are either to rent a beach house in NC for the week with sibs coming and going as they please or a cruise (which is not my idea of fun but whatever), maybe from Baltimore, seeing East Coast sib before you leave for a day or two. Other suggestion is a cabin/camp in MI or WI because it's a 2 h goddamn flight from almost anywhere on the East Coast and will be cheaper and less crowded than NC.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:07 AM
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53: Sure, we all damage our kids, but come on.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:08 AM
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Yeah, who cares if they're both there at the same time I mean, clearly you do, and your mom probably does, but with those constraints there's really no way to get more than a half-day overlap. Anyway as long as they each do their week/weekend in the same spot, you and your family and your parents can just be somewhere for the siblings to drop in.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:11 AM
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My family did a thing last summer with rented camps in Maine timed around my grandfather's memorial service where the family came and went in staggered times over a week with everyone attending the service. My sister and her husband came from LA for three days. "Because family is important to us." It's not just your siblings.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:12 AM
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I suport ydnew's beach house idea. all the real grownups can plan a Friday-to-Saturday 8 day trip. One siblng can come the first Friday-Sunday and the other one can arrive the first Saturday night and that's when you serve cake.

It'll probably be easier to deal with them if they're tagging out, anyway, right?


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:13 AM
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East Coast brother's position is wrong (he could easily go to say, Michigan or someplace not EC but near an airport) but not incomprehensible or facially unreasonable. West Coast brother's position, though, seems insane. What's the reason for the Saturday-only restriction? Some weirdness about airfare? Because if they flew on either Friday or Sunday you could just have Wesr Coast family come early, and then oncr ECF arrives everyone could spend at least Friday-Sun with East Coast Brother and Mom. If it really is about airfare, just find them a cheaper ticket, the Saturday travel thing is real but overblown. Anyhow, if you want a ruling on which brother is the jerk, it's West Coast Brother.


Posted by: Tim "Ripper" Owens | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:13 AM
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I am generally not a fan of formulaic rules like the "40 comment rule", but in this case it my football comments represented a jarring and inappropriate transition. And everyone who has continued with comments on that topic is a monster.

Did anyone else get the impression that Marshawn Lynch hesitated briefly just in front of the goal line on the go-ahead touchdown, as if he were thinking about downing the ball one foot short of the goal, so that Seattle could run out the clock before the score?


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:13 AM
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How much time are the families willing to take off if you leave the country?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:15 AM
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all the real grownups can plan a Friday-to-Saturday 8 day trip. One siblng can come the first Friday-Sunday and the other one can arrive the first Saturday night and that's when you serve cake

Ding ding ding.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:15 AM
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Everybody just stay home. You can all Skype in to sing happy birthday.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:15 AM
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57: I'm not saying it's the same at all! But I have a child whose face was burned by someone who was supposed to take care of her and who has grave concerns about her future attractiveness qnd thus self-worth because of that, which is far from FGM but seems to me on the same spectrum in some respects.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:16 AM
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62: I don't think he was thinking of downing it, just eating a few more seconds off the clock before scoring. But he definitely paused.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:16 AM
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What's the reason for the Saturday-only restriction?

So that they have a day to recover from jet lag before kids go to camp. And they don't want to leave on a Friday because then two weeks get disrupted instead of just one.

East Coast brother's position is wrong (he could easily go to say, Michigan or someplace not EC but near an airport) but not incomprehensible or facially unreasonable.

The part that is ludicrous is that they absolutely can only take one day off work. (It becomes ludicrous when compared to their lifestyle in general.)


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:17 AM
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In reality I would just plan a trip that I thought the birthday lady would prefer, and invite the siblings and their families. If they don't come, they're the jerks who don't care about their mother's birthday.

Except the birthday lady would probably prefer to have all the children. Siblings are very annoying.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:17 AM
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I do think we'll end up towards Ydnew's solution. Mom hates the beach and sun, but something like that.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:18 AM
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To be honest, I would happily accomodate all of this (and will), but the part that makes me absolutely see red is that they are both positioning themselves as martyrs who are at their wits ends. Just own that you're placing limitations on things and speak frankly about it. You're not the victim of this vacation.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:20 AM
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Still think West Coast crew are jerks. If you fly on Sunday morning from somewhere east-ish, you get back to the west coast early and in plenty of time to sleep (the day to recover from jet lag thing is bullshit, and I say this with experience). Or, if that's the worry, just leave on a Friday (the "messing up two weeks" thing is also bullshit). East Coast brother's taking no more than three days might also be total bullshit depending on lifestyle, but it's not facially absurd.


Posted by: Tim "Ripper" Owens | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:24 AM
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61: Going from CA to East Coast on a Friday is kind of sucky, though. I sort of sympathize. Easy to wrap up the workweek, a redeye probably sucks with kids, travel time is 6 h or so + 9 h time difference, so you leave in the morning and fight rush hour coming and going. Not that I'd be difficult about it.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:25 AM
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Neither one's restrictions are completely nuts - they both have kids, travel is difficult, I get it. But they both think they're bending over backwards and they're both getting mad, when in fact both are bending over...forwards?


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:28 AM
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I mean, how important is it? I have no idea. Maybe not important at all. But I don't think your gym owner is being idiosyncratically weird about this. What he's prescribing is standard form for bear crawls.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:30 AM
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Oops, wrong thread.


Posted by: ur[ple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:32 AM
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72: Refusing to leave the East Coast is absurd, though, absent financial hardship. A plague on both of them, but I think East Coast sib has the more difficult limitations.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:32 AM
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Also one individual has a style which makes me feel like I'm being yelled at. Really it is more of an intense shouty prolonged lecture/monologue, where if you respond it will stretch out to infinity. The yelling monologue is what made me so mad this morning.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:34 AM
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Ydnew, you are as wrong and as foolish as the insufferable West Coast Brother. If the three-day time restriction for East Coast Brother is real*, then not wanting to leave the East is a perfectly reasonable sentiment, especially if other family members have more total time. The West Coast family's position is just ridiculous, especially as a *firm* position as opposed to a preference.

*if the three day thing isn't real,then East Coast brother is the bigger jerk, but for that reason.


Posted by: Tim "Ripper" Owens | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:37 AM
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No, I think ydnew's right. East Coast brother will only travel longitudinally? That's bullshit. He could at least head westward and shave a couple hours off other brother's travel misery.

God, I hate flying. Why can't I be like Smearcase or one of those people accidentally put on the no-fly list?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:47 AM
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So that they have a day to recover from jet lag

"Jet lag"? For travel within the continental US? What assholes.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 10:58 AM
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It's true that if ECB is willing or able to fly at all, he should at least be willing to go as far West as Chicago, or his position is totally unreasonable. But WCB's current position appears indifferent to flight time, because of the ridiculous Saturday restriction.

Here's what you should do -- book a lake house (or plan to stay at a nice resort hotel) within an hour of a direct-flight hub airport in the upper Midwest, maybe Minneapolis, maybe Detroit. No one has any excuses in that event.


Posted by: Tim "Ripper" Owens | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:00 AM
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Other suggestion is a cabin/camp in MI or WI because it's a 2 h goddamn flight from almost anywhere on the East Coast and will be cheaper and less crowded than NC.

I was really hoping for the Sleeping Bear sand dunes in MI, and Mom was totally on board.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:01 AM
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If anyone knows of a nice resort/hotel within 1-2 hours of Chicago, Detroit, Denver etc major hubs, I will pursue it with a vengeance. This is the current path I'm going down, but I don't know where to start.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:03 AM
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I bet they didn't really mean "jet lag", as much as "travel-related stress, etc." I mean, when we're travelling we do the same thing--generally strongly preferring to come back on Sat. instead of Sunday, because it gives us Sunday at home to rest some and also get caught back up on normal routine things (including especially the mountain of laundry we always bring home from vacation) before the work week kicks back in. However, we wouldn't phrase it as an absolute requirement--just a preference and how we tend to book our own travel plans.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:03 AM
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85 to 81.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:04 AM
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You should all meet in Omaha. It's central for all involved and has stuff to do.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:05 AM
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87: FWIW, I would be totally happy to explore Omaha. I bet it would be perfectly fine but I'd never be able to sell them on it.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:10 AM
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There's a visitor's bureau who do that professionally. They can send you a packet.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:13 AM
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If it doesn't have to be a relaxing resorty vacation I'd say just go to Chicago -- there's tons for kids to do, a lake right there and a beach, and plenty of places to have a nice meal with Mom. If that's right out there's gotta be some nice lake-ish place within 2 hours of MSP airport.


Posted by: Tim "Ripper" Owens | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:18 AM
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Pick the wrong week in the summer and Chicago would not be guaranteed to satisfy mom's requirement that it be someplace less hot than Florida.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:23 AM
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If anyone knows of a nice resort/hotel within 1-2 hours of Chicago, Detroit, Denver etc major hubs

My parents' most frequent vacation plan is renting a cabin at this place. Hour and a half or so from the Denver airport, just outside Rocky Mountain National Park, quiet.

Chicago has plenty of nice hotels.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:24 AM
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Surely, there must be a solution that involves the use of an ekranoplan.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:25 AM
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It doesn't exactly have to be a resort, but it has to have:
1) a pool
2) very easy access to a restaurant
3) no "dirt in the corners"
4) no big group house

None of those come from my family, just to reinforce my own halo.

Really, I would be really happy to get specific recommendations in the Chicago area. Lakefront would substitute for a pool.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:26 AM
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Pick the wrong week in the summer and Chicago would not be guaranteed to satisfy mom's requirement that it be someplace less hot than Florida.

Oh, totally. And even Colorado is pretty scorching in the summer because of the altitude. I think Mom just wants an effort made in that direction.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:27 AM
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Your cunning disguise has been compromised.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:29 AM
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92: That kind of thing would work, but that specific one doesn't have a pool or swimming.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:30 AM
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Heh. Oh damn it.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:31 AM
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Here's a nice place a little over 2 hours north of MPLS in Marge Gunderson territory. My data is 30+ years out-of-date of course, but it looks to be similar. My sister worked a summer or two there and we stayed as a family for a week at less fancy place on the same lake. There are a number of similar places in less remote settings in southern Wisconsin within Chicago weekend distance. Probably the same in SW Michigan, but I do not know of them.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:32 AM
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99 looks great. If I can get an assortment of locations of things like that, I bet I can get something for everyone.

I'm actually starting to feel much better. Thanks, you guys. Have I mentioned that I love you all?


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:35 AM
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82.1: Yes! That's specifically what I think is dumb. Meeting near a travel hub in the middle is not so hard and possibly less travel time than N-S on the east coast.

84: The Abbey at Lake Geneva, WI. Maybe 1.5 h N of O'Hare. Chicago might be expensive for hotel located centrally if you stay a full week, and summer is crowded and hot, although June is not usually too bad. For camping (if you'd like that kind of thing), Indiana and MI have state parks with sand dunes, but I think it'd be a hassle to get to with kids. Breckenridge might be close enough to Denver, with nice hiking, although that is probably a stretch for East Coast sibling, since it is maybe 3 h flight + 2 h drive. The main resort there is fine in summer.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:37 AM
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Lake Geneva just over the Wisconsin border NW of Chicago would be a good place to look. It may be faded midwestern glory type of stuff, however. But I'm sure there are modern equivalents in that stretch of lake-y territory.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:37 AM
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I recommend Eau Claire, Wisconsin. You can make a trip to the habitat of the Iowa Pleistocene Snail.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:38 AM
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97: Probably there are similar places with pools, but I don't know them. I know one year that place was booked up and they tried one directly across the street from it, and were not happy. The hotel that inspired The Shining is also near there, so there's that...

I've probably stayed in at least ten different hotels in downtown Chicago (Loop or River North) over the years and I think they're mostly interchangeable (and, by big US city standards, inexpensive).


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:38 AM
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102, meet 101. Also, Lake Delavan is near Lake Geneva and less expensive. Might be able to rent cabins there.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:40 AM
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103: It's a family trip, not sex tourism.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:42 AM
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I've got a similar thing going on. Grandma is turning 90 and wants grandchildren A, B and C (me) all together in the same place. Grandchildren A and B are somewhat strapped for cash. A is on the East Coast and is the most likely to refuse to show up for some arbitrary reason. B is in the Midwest. I'm on the West Coast and have the youngest children.

Grandma's position is: let's just have it on the East Coast so A will show up.

My position is: please just make it someplace convenient for us (the Midwest is fine) and I'm happy to help pay for anybody who needs help. To which A responds: no, no, no, no, I could never take your money; I'd rather just fuck over Grandma.


Posted by: Denis Thatcher | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:42 AM
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Crystal Lake, IL, is a place where a lot of my Chicagoan relatives go to vacation. I've never been, but the relatives who go rave about it. About an hour from O'Hare.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:43 AM
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Erring on the side of upscale will make them take me more seriously. They will expect me to produce some shitty campground with a rusty old playground, because in all fairness, I like that sort of thing just fine.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:44 AM
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They will expect me to produce some shitty campground with a rusty old playground, because in all fairness, I like that sort of thing just fine.

To further reinforce your halo.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:50 AM
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Crystal Lake...

It has a death curse!


Posted by: Opinionated Crazy Ralph | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:55 AM
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109: Try the Abbey. I haven't been in years decades (watched the OJ Ford Bronco chase there!), but I remember it as being pretty nice. We couldn't have afforded it without it being a conference Dad's work was subsidizing.

107: Where does Grandma live? Is travel relatively easy for her? I'd tend to suck it up unless your kids are nightmare travelers. But I'll go ahead and hate A for you.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 11:56 AM
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The Abbey looks great.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:03 PM
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62: Yes, I did. I wonder if he glanced briefly at the clock.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:04 PM
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Grandma is in FL but would be happy to go to the Midwest. That's where she's from so there's the bonus of having even more of everybody all together if we go there.

I guess part of the background is that for years A jerked us around to make everything convenient when his kids were young. Now I've got an infant and I'm expected to fly 7 hours to keep everything convenient (and non-ego-deflating) for him still. Grr.


Posted by: Denis Thatcher | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:11 PM
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The nice thing about a place within 2 hrs of ORD is that west coast family could take a 9:30 or so flight home Sunday easily, which would give them almost a full day at home to recover from jet lag/travel, East Coast brother loses an hour on Friday and has a short flight, so everyone could easily have most of Friday and all day Saturday together.


Posted by: Tim "Ripper" Owens | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:19 PM
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115: A is mostly just being selfish, here. If it were truly about the money, he could drive rather than fly to the Midwest to save the money (assuming time off work would be OK, because it's a day's drive each way). I'd think Detroit would be easy to do (Chicago is about 4 h drive from Detroit proper but only maybe 30 min more on a plane). Gas is cheap. Staying in Detroit is extremely cheap. It is the non-asshole thing to do. The compromise is only reasonable, though, if the people involved are reasonable.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:38 PM
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Now I'm totally ready for a vacation.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:38 PM
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One nice thing about Detroit: you can trick people into accidentally driving to Canada by telling them to head south from Detroit.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:45 PM
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And then they can't get back if they didn't bring a passport.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:54 PM
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WE USE THAT TRICK ALL THE TIME.


Posted by: EXTRATERRITORIAL MOUNTIES | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:55 PM
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I'M JUST A CITY BOY, EH?


Posted by: OPINIONATED STEVE PERRY | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 12:59 PM
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I threw the Abbey out for consideration...


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 1:37 PM
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Speaking of asshole vacations, I'm getting one now because I'm under the weather and Lee wanted me to be able to get some rest but didn't think she could handle all three children herself, so she drove them almost two hours to our friends' farm because all other friends are busy and all I had to do was get their boots and pack a bag for the car and now I get the entire evening to myself. I may rewatch The Trip and The Trip to Italy, though I watched that one while knitting earlier this weekend, but basically I can do whatever I want and it's amazing!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 3:20 PM
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Speaking of asshole vacations

This isn't the sodomy thread.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 3:24 PM
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It could yet be, teofilo!

The non-sodomy thing I forgot to say is that The Trip and especially etc. to Italy strike me as probably the most unfogged movies I've ever seen.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 3:27 PM
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The sodomy thing I've never bothered saying is what a sucker I'd be for someone proposing somdomy because Oscar Wilde jokes are the best joked, but now that I've shared that it's probably ruined.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 3:30 PM
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The typos in 127 make me think your joke from the other thread may be more appropriate here.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 3:32 PM
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There is only one typo in 127 and one deliberate misspelling, but your point stands. Also I might be counting wrong.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 3:34 PM
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Ah, I wondered about that. Noted.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 3:37 PM
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Crystal Lake, IL, is a place where a lot of my Chicagoan relatives go to vacation. I've never been, but the relatives who go rave about it.

Are you sure you didn't mean to say Chain O' Lakes?


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 4:20 PM
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81: seriously, fuck that. I CALL BULLSHIT.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 8:16 PM
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|>
Also A List of Things that Didn't Kill Me, damages less irreversible but no better justified.
||


Posted by: OPINIONATED FRIEND OF THE AUTHOR | Link to this comment | 01-19-15 8:39 PM
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Anything near Chicago is out. WCB doomed it. "Too far for a weekend, not worth a whole week."

A friend came back with some suggestions for a few hours around Denver - WCB is willing to fly to Denver for a weekend. Just not Chicago.


Posted by: Ladybird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 3:08 PM
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Omaha is almost exactly halfway between Chicago and Denver.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 3:11 PM
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The Trip and especially etc. to Italy strike me as probably the most unfogged movies I've ever seen.

I always thought of Metropolitan as the unofficial movie of unfogged. But The Trip makes sense as well (now that we're all aging).


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 3:16 PM
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I think it should be something we can all agree on. Probably something from Russ Meyer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 3:24 PM
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Let's all see how many clicks it takes us to get from the wikipedia page for Cohen's kappa to the page for Beyond the Valley of the Dolls.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 3:40 PM
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I keep forgetting the topic of this thread. Sorry.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 3:47 PM
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Too far for a weekend, not worth a whole week.

Such consideration and respect for your mother.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:07 PM
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134: Well, it's not like they could go for four or five days rather than take an entire week. That's just crazy talk. They couldn't travel only on Saturdays. Coastal snobbery FTW. I bet ECB nixes Denver as too far.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:34 PM
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Both families, unbeknownst to each other, are having the exact same cry-fest: "The flight to Denver is two hours longer than the flight to Chicago!!" and "The flight to Chicago is two hours longer than the flight to Denver!!" I swear to god they are both hung up on the exact same point. It really is an aggravating comedy of some sort.


Posted by: LadyBird Johnson | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:43 PM
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I always thought of Metropolitan as the unofficial movie of unfogged. But The Trip makes sense as well (now that we're all aging).

A remake of Metropolitan starring Wallace Shawn and Andre Gregory would be the most Unfogged movie.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:44 PM
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142: I hear good things about Waverly, Nebraska.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:46 PM
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That's basically a Lincoln suburb.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:49 PM
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Mobes, have you ever been to Kimball? I have a weird number of acquaintances with a connection to kimball.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:50 PM
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Minneapolis.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:50 PM
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146: Not unless you count driving past on I-80.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:53 PM
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145: That reminds me, a friend pointed me at a job with a company in Lincoln. It'd be remote work, but with quarterly trips to HQ. I'm tempted to go for it just so I can see how Lincoln's changed in the past 30 years.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:58 PM
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If you are there around Easter, we could have the first ever (that I know of) Nebraska meet-up.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 7:59 PM
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Suggest Branson as a compromise.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 8:05 PM
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151 is evil.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 01-20-15 8:07 PM
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togel singapore
togel singapore
togel singapore

Nice Post i very like it


Posted by: kelly | Link to this comment | 07-17-17 12:26 AM
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