Or we could talk about the slowly unfolding drama of gswift realizing that every cop he doesn't know personally is, at least some of the time, a corrupt thug. Just lately we've had the SC shooting, the Dent beating in Detroit, the horse thief beating in California, and surely some I haven't seen in the news.
Huh. I'm really behind on my cop beatings.
Is there really even much to discuss? The quick charge plus the cop's original lawyer dropping him almost certainly means the video is showing exactly what we think it's showing, the cop fetching the taser and dropping it next to the body, and that he told both the dept and his original lawyer that Scott took his taser and ran off with it.
That video is crazily bad. The cop doesn't fire right away like he's afraid, he pauses and obviously takes a good shooting stance and gets a good sight picture before cranking off a bunch of rounds at a guy running full speed away from him. What else stands out to me is how the only time the cop shows urgency in his demeanor is when he runs back to his original position to pick up that object and get back to the body to drop it.
2: ACTUALLY, MORALE ALREADY IMPROVED.
Further to 1: See, that's why you should move out here. Better winters, cheaper housing, mountains, and less likely to get whupped on a traffic stop.
What is striking to me is that had it not been for the video, everyone would have bought the story of the struggle for the taser. Lots of noises of sympathy, sure, but if you don't want to be shot, you shouldn't go after the cop's weapon, what else could the cop have done, etc.
1 - A quick scan of the news gets me detroit police officers stealing seized drugs and money, Philadelphia cops dragging some kid down to the station in handcuffs after a video of him schooling them in basketball went viral; and inexplicably missing video in Virginia.
I won't link to or even quote his remarks on the matter, but is there nothing Geraldo Rivera can't do or say to get beaten within an inch of his life fired?
On the (correct) point in 7: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/08/walter-scott-shooting-without-video_n_7024404.html
The Orange County Sheriff's Department tape also shows the edge of Fitzgerald's head repeatedly hitting the hood of the cruiser, which the deputy said Fitzgerald did himself, intentionally.
Sounds legit.
Regarding 7:
It would still be a bad shoot. Maybe during a struggle over the taser. But if someone resists and grabs your taser and then sprints away you can't pull out your gun and plug them in the back from 30 feet away unless you've got something else to articulate as to why that guy is an imminent threat to others.
gswift, you're a great guy, but after the events of the last year do you seriously want to argue that Slager would have faced serious trouble without video evidence?
As per the link in 10 - the initial story before the video surfaced was almost word for word the same story we see in a lot of police shootings. It's basically the fatal shooting equivalent of police yelling "Stop Resisting!" when they want to get some hits in on a restrained suspect. And in at least the majority of cases it works just fine: even if it does make it to trial juries almost always go with it.
8.2: Could you be more credulous? It was days after the video and he was detained for like 90 minutes as a passenger in a car that involved an investigation and then was released after they determined he had nothing to do with it. By his own account the cops were nice as hell to him.
11: That's a real thing. I don't personally get it but I've seen it a lot and have had take those types to the hospital for a head scan before the jail will take them.
12: Right, but I'm thinking of in the court of public opinion, which is necessary to get the cop's actions investigated, most people would hear "struggle over the taser, guy musta done something" and that would probably be the end of it.
13: South Carolina and all so who knows but the fact remains that even if all we had is a body with a taser next to it with no video that shoot is illegal as hell.
The ME report would have shown shots in the back from a distance but I think he maybe avoids charges, definitely walks without the video, especially since the taser was planted. As I said in the previous discussion the video shifts it to definitely charge but still maybe walks- the video shows they were struggling somehow, his lawyer will argue that makes him a danger to all if he'll physically assault an armed cop. But in the end depends on the race of the jury.
The law of the land is Tennessee v. Garner and that threshold is probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. Multiple rounds from distance square in the back of a running man with nothing more than an already discharged taser does not get you there. Not even close.
Never discount the "he was charging at me backwards" defense theory.
Sure but what people are pointing out is that the law of the land is generally ignored in these cases, unless the people involved are forced to deal with it, like by someone recording the whole thing on video and then releasing it.
Also as far as that basketball player goes, the "days after the video" part is the same part as the "after the clip went viral", so I'm not sure how that helps out.
It's worth reading the actual interview, too, if only for the male background voice (my guess would be that his name is "Josh").
21: That defense is a bit of a rough sell when there's like 50 feet between the body and the shell casings.
Yeah, he moved the taser but forgot to move the shell casings closer too.
You'd think that The New Yorker could refrain from reaching for a Sir Walter Scott reference, but no.
BTW is it in fact true that in SC a single taillight out is not a violation?
I'm somewhat encouraged that even the most pro-cop /anti-protest segments of the internet seem to think that the Scott shooting is flat out unjustified murder. Disturbing to think that he probably gets away with it without the video, but I suspect the worst case scenario here is that this is the case that proves the system works.
This kind of defense really does seem to work with a substantial number of jurors, so I'm not sure how much weight that evidence that would end up carrying. Hey, maybe he staggered away after being shot, or the sheer force of the bullets threw his body thirty feet backwards* or something.
*I saw this in an action movie, and hence I assume it to be what happens in every case, just like how DNA tests are perfectly reliable and accurate, and CSIs can pretty much tell you exactly what happened in every crime scene within a few hours.
Some of the relevant SC authorities are quoted as saying that the shooting seemed suspicious before the video surfaced. Who knows, they might be lying, but there might be a paper trail of at least some doubt about the initial story.
Even Texas is starting to crack down on cop misbehavior.
If there were independently suspicious elements like shell casings, why did the police choose to parrot Slager's story to the press?
I feel bad that I laughed out loud at 21.
I feel bad that I didn't denounce you for laughing at 21.
Why did the original lawyer drop him? I mean, guilty though he is, he's still entitled to counsel. Under the circumstances, the lawyer might want to advise accepting a plea, but still, the guy deserves a lawyer.
34: I had assumed not because Slager did it but because he lied to his lawyer about it.
Yeah, Slager pretty clearly told the lawyer a version of events that was contradicted by the video.
I'm just being selfish and hijacking this thread rather than one less about shooting black people, but the judge granted us both joint custody of all three girls. So now if either of us dies or something, we're set. And I also can't use the legal instability as an excuse to stay in the relationship, but I do think a breakup would be bad for the girls although alternatives to it might be too. We have friends watching th tomorrow and get an actual overnight together without kids, which will maybe clarify things, I guess.
Some practical advice here - http://www.ravishly.com/2015/04/10/what-you-can-do-right-now-about-police-brutality
Go forth and implement my pale brethren & sisteren!
Speaking of police issues, Arizona just passed a new law regarding civil asset forfeiture.
37: Wow, congratulations, so happy to hear this. Whatever happens going forward, I imagine it'll be a relief to have that settled.
That's New Mexico, not Arizona, where it would have been more surprising.
gswift, since you're here, a couple of questions about procedure in your neck of the woods:
1) What are the rules about performing CPR or otherwise applying first aid after you shoot someone? Is it mandatory? What is the protocol for determining when/whether to engage in it?
2) a related Q: what are the rules about handcuffing a wounded suspect? It it always supposed to be done, or are there any circumstances under which you are not supposed to do it?
44.1: In my agency there's no hard and fast rules. You can if it's safe do to so but it's not required. Part of that is that until very recently CPR cert wasn't part of the training. Many of us, including me, still aren't certified. I do have a chest seal, a trauma bandage with quickclot, and a tourniquet that were all bought by the union. But that was part of a training on rescuing yourself or another officer in a shooting.
44.2: Again, no hard and fast rules. Often we do it because you don't want to tussle with that guy while he's wounded. The other big factor is that there's a ton of stress going on and you default to your training which is suspects get handcuffed. Sometimes it gets done and seems weird in hindsight but it's totally a guy on autopilot in fight mode who does it without even thinking. And handgun torso wounds are often surprisingly low key and hard to spot early on. If you didn't know the context and watched Scott in the OP related video would you know he was shot? This guy gets fatally wounded and dies like a mile down the highway. See if you can even tell he gets hit. Even knowing in advance most people can't tell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1gYEG1TzBk
There is precisely zero chance Slager gets indicted without the video. Maybe he's quietly booted off the force after the dust settles, but without the video? Zero chance.
Again, South Carolina, but I've seen guys indicted on less. .
And, before I get too drunk to operate a phone, the link in 40 is surprisingly good.
37: I want to say "yay!" but you didn't wait for 40 comments. This makes you solely responsible for at least one act of police brutality.
Now, now, Thorn's threadjack was at least tangentially related to the OP, which immunizes it from the 40-comment rule. She's responsible for half an act of police brutality at most.
How about half an act of gswift brutality, which is basically an eye roll and a "are you fucking kidding me".
[T]he judge granted us both joint custody of all three girls.
Congratulations! It's been a long process.
I do have a chest seal, a trauma bandage with quickclot, and a tourniquet that were all bought by the union.
I was reading a little too quickly, and the first time through I thought that all of those things had been provided by "the unicorn."
Also, has anybody been following the "NYPD broke Thabo Sefolosha's leg" story? I remember seeing the news, a couple of days ago, which reported that he was injured in a fight in a nightclub, and now I'm fascinated to see what happens with this story.
How in the hell did the NYPD come to injure Thabo Sefolosha? One moment fellow NBA player Chris Copeland and Copeland's girlfriend Katrine Saltara were being stabbed at a trendy Chelsea nightclub (both are in stable condition), then Sefolosha and his Atlanta Hawk teammate Pero Antic were being arrested for obstruction... and then a broken leg. As for how Sefolosha's fibula was fractured, there is the police version of what went down and then there is Thabo's version. Stunningly, several outlets including ESPN first printed the police's version as fact. If nothing else, the death of Walter Scott should be a lesson to all of us that there is a chasm between what the police can say happened and the reality of a situation.
52: Zirin is an idiot. There's a better video here.
Pero Antic didn't walk away because he was white, it's because he doesn't resist. Get out of the crime scene when you're told you dummies. And the "severe blow from an NYPD officer's nightstick" doesn't look like a blow at all but a cop deploying a collapsible baton. He appears to do the initial swing to get it to extend and then doesn't ever actually hit anybody with it.
53: Zirin specifically says "Whether or not racial bias was involved, the optics of this are very familiar to anyone who has followed the methodologies of the NYPD." Which... is true. Too bad for the poor, put-upon NYPD; sucks to get judged based on the actions of other people in a group you happen to belong to, doesn't it?
I should say that I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that the cops need to establish a crime scene. But a) they need to take into account that they're being filmed and act maybe change their behavior a bit (even if it seems like an undue burden) and b) I'd have more sympathy if they'd explain themselves decently after the fact. But based on past incidents their attitude seems to be "only God can judge us", so, you know, tough shit for them.
54: It's stupid for Zirin to talk about in some speculative fashion that way when there's a video. We don't have to wonder why one the non white guy is the one in a tussle with the cops. There's an actual film of him resisting arrest and the white guy not resisting.
55: What do you want them to do different? Are they not supposed to arrest people for refusing to get out of a crime scene just because someone's filming? And what other explanation are you looking for?
56: Is there a longer one than the one you linked to? At the beginning of that one all you see is Sefalosha already surrounded by cops and being dragged away. That doesn't look like "resisting arrest" to me. (And you realize that the nightstick comment is on TMZ, not Zirin's post, right? Zirin basically says "we don't know what happened other than that Sefalosha ended up with a broken leg".)
As for what I want them to do differently? Fuck, man, I don't know, but at a certain point they're going to have to accept that they have a bad rep and that every time they get filmed taking someone down people are going to judge them in the larger context. (I mean, it doesn't help that "resisting arrest" is at this point the standard excuse for police brutality everywhere before videos start coming out.) A longer explanation after the fact of precisely why it's so important to maintain control of the crime scene, and what they're doing to make sure that people who don't clear out quickly are dealt with non-violently, would be a good start.
54: It's stupid for Zirin to talk about in some speculative fashion that way when there's a video.
Zirin's obviously using the incident as an occasion to make the point. That said
What do you want them to do different?
Well, not keep him with a broken leg overnight without treatment . . .
But, part of what makes this story interesting is that it should get covered thoroughly, and that Thabo has plenty of resources, both personally and organizationally, to defend himself.
Apparently the players union is investigating (as one would expect).
"The players' union is concerned about the circumstances of Thabo Sefolosha and Pero Antic's arrest and is doing its own investigation of the situation," NBPA spokeswoman Tara Greco said. "The union was fully engaged in supporting all three players in court and in the precinct this week, and will continue to stay engaged as each situation evolves."
Yes, the steps laid out in 40 go further to effect real productive change than all the blathering online and we can all hope that someday a critical number of the ungoggedesque demographic will actually engage.
That doesn't look like "resisting arrest" to me.
Are we watching the same video? Can you not see them trying to get his arms behind his back?
A longer explanation after the fact of precisely why it's so important to maintain control of the crime scene
Oh come on, are you seriously unclear on why crime scenes get locked down and we just don't let random people mill around in them?
61: not really? Resisting arrest sounds like something way more vigorous than what he's doing in that video. (And remember, I'm the guy who said, wrt that video of the SC cop shooting the guy who reached for his wallet in the car, that I understood why the cop opened fire.)
And I think you're missing my point. Like I said, I'm not unsympathetic! But you gotta give me an explanation that justifies 6 officers taking a guy down, and what they did before it got to that point. Basically it comes down to me not being willing to extend the benefit of the doubt, without more information, to the cops that they did everything they could to resolve the situation without violence.
63: Everything about that shooting is fucked. The guy who shot him a) supposedly intended to tase him but got his weapons confused and b) is a 73-year-old dude who donated enough money to the PD to get to play cop. Oh, and there's this lovely quote from the PD:
I continue to be surprised that anyone will insure the police for liability these days. 73-year old volunteer deputies with loaded firearms and the license to arrest. What could possibly go wrong?
Charged with second degree manslaughter. I guess we're getting a reasonable number of data points to answer the question, how much of a fuckup do you have to be to be charged when you're acting as a LEO and kill someone.
I like the way "Fuck your breath" becomes "yelling at hm to stop struggling" in that article.
It's too bad the department spokesman didn't have a better sense of irony.
"The operation was an attempt to keep fire arms out of dangerous hands. Reserve Deputy Bates has demonstrated how important that is."