Re: Aptly titled

1

and yet it feels wrong for any but the men to put nipple selfies in the Flickr pool.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:12 PM
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I am campaigning actively to change that.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:13 PM
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For a couple of paragraphs I tried to keep going by substituting "World Famous Anarchist Anthropologist" for "tie". But in the end even that couldn't carry me through.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:15 PM
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1: Feels wrong for *you*, maybe.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:17 PM
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Incidentally if he thinks modern suits render the body's contours "largely invisible" you have to wonder when he last put one on.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:17 PM
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There's a lot you have to wonder after reading this article, like, has David Graeber ever seen a woman in formal attire?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:18 PM
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Decoration that's specific to women (earrings, lipstick, eyeshadow, etc.) tends to highlight the receptive organs. Permissible men's jewelry--rings, cuff links, fancy watches--tends to accentuate the hands.

A bracelet is just a fancy watch that doesn't tell time. A pocket square points upward like an erect member, maybe?

The weaselly "specific to women" is nice (as if women aren't far apter to wear rings than men), as is simply not mentioning that the receptive organs that lipstick, earrings, and eye makeup highlight are all found on the … face.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:22 PM
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2, 4: I think what you meant to write was, "Be the change."


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:22 PM
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(Ok, I guess ears aren't on your face.)


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:22 PM
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Maybe he's so smooth, he only sees women's formal wear when it's cast on his bedroom floor.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:23 PM
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Sometimes power be dressed like this. Sometimes it be dressed like this. This symbolizes that until I think of a string of counterexamples and then it symbolizes the other thing. I am not a 55 year old college sophomore, appearances to the contrary.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:24 PM
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I am not a 55 year old college sophomore, appearances to the contrary.

Maybe you should wear a tie.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:29 PM
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Now that I've read the article, 10 seems unlikely.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:31 PM
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I think he wrote a book about debt. Maybe we should have some discussion of that?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:35 PM
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Maybe some kind of online book event or something.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:37 PM
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The tuxedo is a famous example: it was founded by (mostly bourgeois) industrialists who broke from the aristocracy in Paris in the 1760s, forming little Windsor knots in two or three colors with their bowties in each other's boudoirs....


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:38 PM
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Can we stick Gra/eber and P/aul Ca/mpos in a pit with broadswords? I'd pay money to see that.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:39 PM
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Is the link about Balinese neckties or something?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:41 PM
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4: It does and I feel a lot of guilt about that, but it seems like there's probably a sufficiently large group of people who wouldn't want to see my nipples that their wishes should trump others'. I am not sure whether this is the moral metric I'd normally follow, but anything else seems to presume. I have no personal or aesthetic problems with female toplessness but it feels like the larger culture isn't quite there. I remain super conflicted!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:49 PM
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I remain super conflicted!

New mouseover text!


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:52 PM
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I am not a 55 year old college sophomore, appearances to the contrary.

That's easily four years too old for him. I look forward to his next piece, in The Atlantic, "Whatever, Joey Got To Have A Party At His House And There Was Totally Beer".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 4:56 PM
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I thought the people in charge - in particular, the people acting - at weddings and funerals tended to wear not-suits - gowns and vestments and other (often very colourful) such things - while the people acted upon or merely witnessing were the ones dressed in suit and tie.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 5:00 PM
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Mock all you want, but this guy is going to be a star in ev psych.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 5:33 PM
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Why do we hate Graeber now? I don't remember being expected to hate Graeber. Is it because of the Apple Computers thing?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 5:57 PM
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19: Show us your qualms!


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 5:58 PM
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24: Didn't he turned up in the crooked timber threads and embarrass himself by being a terrible internet arguer who got super shrieky and easily trolled?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 6:30 PM
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I don't remember. I think I was on a break when it happened. Either that or at a low ebb in terms of shit-giving.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 6:33 PM
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26: That's my recollection. Honestly wouldn't that just mean he fit in there? Horrendous comment section at that joint.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 6:34 PM
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24: Yes. It wasn't just a matter of his turning up, though; it was in the context of a book event devoted to Debt, alluded to above.

</explicit>


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 6:38 PM
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a sufficiently large group of people who wouldn't want to see my nipples

I suspect the actual range there is from bated breath to mere indifference.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 6:54 PM
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Skirts, even when they cover the lower half of the body completely, tend to form an open-ended cone whose apex is between the legs

Maybe it's because I'm not very good at math, but I don't get how he thinks skirts work.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 6:59 PM
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26, 29. Yes. Then he did it all over again on the Twitters. And again. And again. He's got a very thin skin and takes offense at the most trivial things, whether intended or merely imagined and it's usually the latter. D2 just aptly referred to the phenomenon of initially liking his book on debt and subsequently coming to dislike it through being turned off by his internet persona as the "Bono effect."


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:00 PM
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Someone on Metafilter called him the David Brooks of the Jacobin set.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:01 PM
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31, it's hard to forgive him for passing up an opportunity to use the word "frustum".


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:02 PM
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At CT Dave Graeber got flustered,
As he whined, yelled, and grumbled and blustered,
But now ned has sussed him --
He should have used "frustum"
So it's clear that he can't cut the mustard.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:17 PM
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Okay, look, he can't be the David Brooks of the Jacobin set because the Jacobin set are true-believer "we have semi secret Marxist organizing plans and a belief in the vanguard" style commies. Graeber is far too anarchist in all kinds of ways - they'll POUM him the minute they get the chance, should they ever have the power to do so.

Debt is a good book; the essay at CT to which Graeber objected was full of academic condescension and would have pissed me off too; he none the less should at least attempt to play a grown-up on the internet.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:32 PM
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Okay, look, he can't be the David Brooks of the Jacobin set because the Jacobin set are true-believer "we have semi secret Marxist organizing plans and a belief in the vanguard" style commies.

I know, I saw your response as well! But it's still a good line.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:34 PM
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But one never wants to miss a chance to reference Kronstadt or the Spanish Civil War. Or to run down Jacobin, which I would be a lot more disposed to like if I had not read that cursed interview with the founder.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:35 PM
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Anyway, I haven't the slightest idea about "Debt: The Book." Also, I thought neckties were supposed to be crucifies, not penises.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:38 PM
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Oooo link to accursed interview? Find Jacobin only semi-explicably annoying, perhaps would help put finger on it.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:38 PM
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My sister's boyfriend subscribes to Jacobin in print, which tells you about all you need to know about him. Every conversation with him is like being stuck in a particularly annoying Unfogged thread.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:43 PM
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Doesn't x. trapnel subscribe to Jacobin? He's a good guy.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:44 PM
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(I do actually like him a lot in spite of the annoyance.)


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:44 PM
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40: Here it is in the New Left Review. In which he actually appears to say with complete seriousness that reading novels is a waste of time, no true revolutionary, etc. Which would come as a fucking great surprise to Lenin.

I mean, he's obviously no fool, but he does seem a bit like someone who is rather looking forward to his own Kronstadt.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:45 PM
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43 to 42, I guess.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:46 PM
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So, is there a lot of Capital slash Debt fic out there?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:49 PM
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Also there's a lot of hilarity in how he ducks the question of just who writes for Jacobin, which seems to be one of the least age- and gender-diverse projects of its kind out there and is less racially diverse than the New Inquiry.

I come from a political tradition rife with smuggery, but this interview is something else.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:49 PM
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I get a little nervous because I think the original Jacobins would have wanted to kill me. I always liked Danton best.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:52 PM
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41: Stuff White People Like: interminable threads about press coverage of Hillary Clinton's position on water problems in California.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 7:59 PM
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More than those CT threads for me it was a particularly pointless fight he picked with Doug Henwood on twitter that turned me sour on Graeber. As I followed it - the first time around - I noticed some newly made twitter account of some person that had a bone to pick with Henwood feed Graeber false info that would get him riled up and Graeber took the bait every time. Then I saw it happen all over again a few weeks later. The guy just has no discernment when dealing with the internet.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:09 PM
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Also, I have an "I (Heart) Charlotte Corday" t-shirt.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:13 PM
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If pressed into reading both in their entirety, I'm pretty sure I'd prefer New Inquiry to Jacobin, but I'm not pressed to do that and just read whatever seems interesting that gets linked to in either publication.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:14 PM
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The thing is, anarchists and marxists are annoying and frustrating in different ways, and tend to have their own cultural styles. And I for some reason have a great deal of natural tolerance for the types of annoying behavior that anarchists tend to engage in and very little for the marxist kinds. Which biases me towards Graeber and away from Jacobin, perhaps unfairly.

I do get really, really tired of Jacobin's monthly version of the "social justice warriors with their talk of privilege are taking all the attention away from class, the one real revolutionary category" article, which is always written by a man, all of whom seem so far to be white. It's such a hackneyed position for one thing, and I mean, at least get the one Marxist Chill Girl on staff to write it for a change.

No, actually, strike that - it really, really makes me angry to read that kind of article by men in supposedly radical magazines. That kind of article has an absolutely shitty history on the left and it causes me immediate, deep distrust of any outlet which elects to run one in this day and age.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:15 PM
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Is it ok to hold the full justification of the NLR interview against the people involved, even though they probably had nothing to do with the typesetting?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:18 PM
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53.1 I hear you, Frowner, and I'm similarly inclined, just google my pseud. But I think in DG's case it's just because he's a dick.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:26 PM
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30: It appears that our flickr pool only accepts safe photos, while flickr itself requests that bare breasts or bottoms be marked moderate and I'd defaulted to restricted as my base assumption, so the indifferent don't have to worry about changing their opinions in either direction and I'll merely reiterate that I think the guys had an easier time of it.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:33 PM
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I'm sure the relevant settings can be changed.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:38 PM
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It seems odd to me that one who contemplates posting a nipple selfie to a Flickr pool would be put off by Flickr's requests so easily, but, you know, whatever floats your boat.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:51 PM
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The relevant settings have been changed.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:54 PM
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...pray I do not alter them any further.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 8:57 PM
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53 I think distills my ick factor, thanks Frowner.

Completely OT but I have to confess to a tremor of trepidation at the prospect of underwriting Bollywood dance class over the summer. It's hard enough to achieve a barely sufficient bedtime on school nights when he's riding high on Minkus and all the old Petipas chestnuts, if this evolves into bolllywood hits at 945 pm it's going to become unmanageable. But there it is, seems my fate is sealed.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:00 PM
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You poor dear.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:01 PM
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Was 46 meant as a joke? Confused. If sincere ummm ... yes.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:02 PM
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I didn't want to get the group in trouble with flickr. If things are not pixellated and requiring clickthrough, someone should let me know immediately and I'll delete.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:02 PM
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Was 46 meant as a joke? Confused. If sincere ummm ... yes.

SAY MORE


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:03 PM
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And I really don't know what the deal is with early midlife crisis exhibitionism, sorry. Just curious, maybe?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:03 PM
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You're among friends.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:06 PM
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I can only assume that 46 was a joke but 65 was definitely not, just so we're clear.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:07 PM
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People actually write stories about books having hot gay sex with each other? I would have thought that only happened in the least fulgent nether regions of Neil Gaiman's unconscious.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:09 PM
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Like, were they sitting there on the shelf, so near to each other, but with the fusty, censorious presence of the Grundrisse between them? Only to have someone borrow him for a class, thus shoving Capital and Debt into an ecstatic intimacy of adjacency that had so long been denied them?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:12 PM
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Because I doubt anyone could write it like I could write it.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:14 PM
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What makes sex between books gay?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:15 PM
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71: I concur.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:16 PM
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Hmmm I misunderstood much less interesting thought you meant fiction re capital / debt to which obvious answer is Zola dickens etc. Carry on.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:25 PM
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No, actually, strike that - it really, really makes me angry to read that kind of article by men in supposedly radical magazines. That kind of article has an absolutely shitty history on the left and it causes me immediate, deep distrust of any outlet which elects to run one in this day and age.

In this day and age, when socially leftist causes are prevailing and economically leftist causes are being crushed? What day and age were they appropriate in?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:26 PM
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Couldn't find any in AO3, but from Rainbow's End, Vernor Vinge:

They made sounds, groaning, hissing, whispering. Conspiring. Deep in the alleyways, some of the books were in chains.
"Gotta watch out for Das Kapital," said Rivera.
"Yup, Dangerous Knowledge yearns to be free."
Some of the books must be real, touchy-feely props. The students in one alley were piling books together. They stood back and the texts nuzzled each other in an orgy of flapping pages. "So that's biographical synthesis?"

Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:34 PM
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Bibliographical. I'm as bad as Google.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 9:34 PM
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It is somewhat depressing that Graeber not only doesn't appear to know anything about the history of men's fashion but doesn't even know that there exist professional historians of fashion who write books about it that can be consulted by people who want to know more.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 11:12 PM
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Fiction, history of fashion, fah - bunch of folderol! Suspect to comprehend Graeber Zola will suffice. Bit decevant.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 11:23 PM
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One of Graeber's biggest problems is that left-anarchism is incredibly, stunningly stupid, despite being well-intentioned. Much of the Debt book was pretty good, or at least bad in forgiveable ways for a book that was willing to take big risks, but like all anarchism it fell apart through having no sense of proportion, reality, or solution for anything. Let's have less debt by ... just not being beholden to anything because freedom, man. Don't make me be more specific because that's fascist.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 04-13-15 11:56 PM
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78 - he knows just enough about historians of fashion to nick a phrase from them, and then recycle it for his own article without any real context or attribution. The fact that historians of fashion skew female and Graeber is a manly man writing about gender mostly as an excuse to write about politics and power makes the whole thing rather icky.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 12:32 AM
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Doesn't x. trapnel subscribe to Jacobin? He's a good guy.

I do, and thanks, although I'm not sure I disagree with any of the criticisms made here. If the Vienna Jacobin Reading Group ever actually has a meeting, I'll let you know what I think of the people who show up.

As a fairly rich person who isn't actually engaged in political activity, reading & subscribing to Jacobin feels like playing at leftism in bad faith, but perhaps the guilt will motivate me into more productive action. Because guilt has always been so good at that for me in the past.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 2:28 AM
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Debt is a good book; the essay at CT to which Graeber objected was full of academic condescension and would have pissed me off too; he none the less should at least attempt to play a grown-up on the internet.

The essay at CT he objected to was quite harmless. Debt is a really interesting book and thought provoking, but sadly Graeber showed immediately and has shown repeatedly thereafter that he is unable to deal with anything other than fawning praise. Go back and take a look at some of the less-than-stellar reviews of his early Madagascar work if you want to get a sense of why he flamed out of his profession.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 3:00 AM
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We should have foreseen that an actual titty would stun everyone into silence. Thorn, you hero, I say hooray!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 4:06 AM
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I'm totally going to delete it since no one will assure me it's worksafe for the unsuspecting and thus I assume it's not.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 4:23 AM
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See, and that implies the recent male nipples, pierced or not, don't even count. Weird! Possibly David Graeber could make up an explanation that's more about proms than patriarchy.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 4:24 AM
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I'm on my phone and don't know how it appears on a desktop, but does anyone go to the Flickr group except to see something mentioned here?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 4:34 AM
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Yeah it seems like you have to actively go to the unfogged flickr group to see it. Maybe somebody has new uploads to the flickr group set to display on their smartwatch and their boss is about to ask them to check their Google Now alerts? 1. Doubt it, though and 2. I dunno what kind of terribly brogrammer job that fictional commenter has but I'm sure their boss won't care.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 4:39 AM
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75: Well, really, just "in this day and age when you don't have the excuse of ignorance, since there's a pretty well established history both of this kind of article being shitty and of people critiquing it". For "this day and age" I guess you could insert "any time after 1917", but I'd really be inclined to say "any time after the culture wars".

There's certainly lots and lots of worthwhile conversations to be had about how class and other structural oppressions interact, when to foreground one, what kinds of critiques are useful, etc. Those are very, very difficult conversations to have, though (and some of them are already being had internally in other activist circles - internally but not privately, ie on other website). The way they should not work is "let me tell you, as a white guy, that all your whining about gender and sexuality is distracting us from building a truly mass movement", since we know exactly how that one turns out - any position as long as it's prone, no more birth control in Mother Russia, etc.

As to whether left anarchism is stupid - it's not stupid, it's just not programmatic except in certain circumstances (ie, Kronstadt, where much of the program was basically "soviets, but for real this time"). It's fundamentally a corrective/pluralistic/useful minority kind of thing to have around - you don't have left anarchists around because they're going to keep the sewer system running, you have them around because it's healthy to have a persistent critique of the kind of authoritarianism that, eg, Jacobin (or left technocrats) tend toward.

And I really felt that the primary essay at CT did have this "there you go, little man" tone to it that made me very uncomfortable. I'm not saying that Graeber was right to blow up as he did, but - and it may have been totally unintentional in the writing - that essay was a tiny bit provoking.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 5:21 AM
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75: Well, really, just "in this day and age when you don't have the excuse of ignorance, since there's a pretty well established history both of this kind of article being shitty and of people critiquing it". For "this day and age" I guess you could insert "any time after 1917", but I'd really be inclined to say "any time after the culture wars".

There's certainly lots and lots of worthwhile conversations to be had about how class and other structural oppressions interact, when to foreground one, what kinds of critiques are useful, etc. Those are very, very difficult conversations to have, though (and some of them are already being had internally in other activist circles - internally but not privately, ie on other website). The way they should not work is "let me tell you, as a white guy, that all your whining about gender and sexuality is distracting us from building a truly mass movement", since we know exactly how that one turns out - any position as long as it's prone, no more birth control in Mother Russia, etc.

As to whether left anarchism is stupid - it's not stupid, it's just not programmatic except in certain circumstances (ie, Kronstadt, where much of the program was basically "soviets, but for real this time"). It's fundamentally a corrective/pluralistic/useful minority kind of thing to have around - you don't have left anarchists around because they're going to keep the sewer system running, you have them around because it's healthy to have a persistent critique of the kind of authoritarianism that, eg, Jacobin (or left technocrats) tend toward.

And I really felt that the primary essay at CT did have this "there you go, little man" tone to it that made me very uncomfortable. I'm not saying that Graeber was right to blow up as he did, but - and it may have been totally unintentional in the writing - that essay was a tiny bit provoking.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 5:21 AM
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As you see, anarchists can't even be trusted with the "post" button.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 5:23 AM
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... hooray!


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 5:33 AM
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I can say with authority that I have *never* had as much fun on the internet as I have had trolling David Graeber.

When I'm weary, feeling small,
When tears are in my eyes...
When times get rough
And friends just can't be found...
When I'm down and out,
When I'm on the street,
When evening falls so hard...
When darkness comes
And pain is all around,
Then I remember how much fun it was to troll David Graeber for a whole month with a sub-Turing instantiation,
And I do my Happy Dance!


Posted by: GnOlEd DaRb | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:09 AM
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93: That seemed to be funny in the beginning, but it got sad.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:13 AM
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He comes back from time to time for the nipples.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:13 AM
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94 to life.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:14 AM
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94: Would it be improved by an autoplay audio soundtrack? Or is it just three times as long as it should be to produce the desired effect?


Posted by: GnOlEd DaRb | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:15 AM
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Titties at work. Hooray!


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:25 AM
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Hmm, if I'd known we were all already essentially in enlightened topless non-Europe I might have made different life choices or something.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:33 AM
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97: No, the adapted lyric was great. I just felt bad for Graber mid way through the epic trollery. Not to say he didn't bring it on himself, but it was like using a sledgehammer to open a peanut. Again and again.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:35 AM
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My idea. Back off.


Posted by: Opinionated George Washington Carver | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:35 AM
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What's the law in Kentucky? I know that going topless is legal in Ohio.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:38 AM
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I know that also. One day, I was on campus and a woman came back into the office and said that a group of topless women had surrounded guy who always came to campus to speak against sex and teh gay.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:40 AM
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Is Thorn's picture still up? I couldn't find it.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:44 AM
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102: Google suggests it can be considered a public nuisance, but someone has to actually complain. Definitely against the office dresscode, though, and even though I'm the boss today it's probably not worth risking it.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:45 AM
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Can they be considered a public nuisance if people complain about man boobs or only the good kind?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:49 AM
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106: Next town over. The "Put your shirt on" slogan on bumper stickers is more common than the "keep your shirt on" they chose, but it's all male-directed as far as I know. And fat-shaming and so on, off course.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:58 AM
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It's probably mostly classism.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 7:05 AM
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Maybe send the link to David Graeber. He could make a nice essay about it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 7:07 AM
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104: I just found it. It's better than mine.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 7:08 AM
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Yours has a bit of metal jammed through it. That's painful to look at.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 7:09 AM
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Turgid Jacobian: 97: "No, the adapted lyric was great. I just felt bad for Graber mid way through the epic trollery. Not to say he didn't bring it on himself, but it was like using a sledgehammer to open a peanut. Again and again..."

This is a fundamental problem with info tech and, indeed, industrial mass-production systems. It's too easy to set the in motion, and then they are too powerful running on autopilot.

Especially with someone who suffers Dunning-Kruger badly, and i unable to pick up the cues that to him must have been invisible that he was dealing not with a tweeting mind but with a pre-set up script...

Cf: "Sorcerer's Apprentice"


Posted by: GnOlEd DaRb | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:33 AM
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Off topic bleg:

I have to write an abstract on something I don't know much about, so I was wondering if any of you read a lot of erotica in English, and how much of it is cougar-incest erotica? e.g. aunt-nephew, mother-son, grandma-grandson. If you just know about straight up cougar and/or incest erotica that would also be helpful.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:40 AM
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Wait? What is that you do?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:41 AM
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I think at herpy.net, some of the cars are much younger than the dinosaurs, but the incest element really doesn't work for that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:42 AM
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Buttercup seems to have short-circuited Moby's ability to write grammatical English.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:43 AM
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116 to 114.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:43 AM
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Oh my god. Someone is probably out there writing Bertie/Aunt Agatha erotic fanfic. I may never become aroused again.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:45 AM
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I'm surprised you can still read this thread.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:46 AM
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I'm writing about Chinese women's erotic cell phone novels (which isn't really what I do either, but I volunteered to talk about it on a panel). I started reading one recommended by one of my research subjects, and it turns out it's cougar/incest erotica. Baidu-ing it shows me that this is kind of a popular genre in Chinese erotica, so I was wondering how this compares to the US. All I know about Western romance comes from Ja/nice Rad/way's Reading the Romance.

If anyone knows about Chinese cell phone erotica, that would be good too.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:48 AM
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113: Is A White Bear around? This sounds like it might fall within her area of expertise.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:48 AM
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I manage to read Unfogged while horrified all the time.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:49 AM
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I was thinking of your office net nanny.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:50 AM
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118: rowr, old chap.

(Actually I didn't find any Bertie/Aunt Agatha. Lots of Bertie/Jeeves, of course, and a fair bit of Aunt Agatha/Dahlia Trevors.)


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:51 AM
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There was Spanking the Monkey, aka "Don't Watch This With Your Parents".


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:51 AM
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I honestly don't know, Buttercup, but would suggest searching some of the adult fan fiction sites, which I don't want to do from work, to see if you can use those terms and find something. I doubt you'd get any mainstream erotica with much cougar incest, although I could be totally wrong. LB's almost certainly right about Aunt Agatha/Bertie, though. Aunt Dahlia would be too obvious.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:51 AM
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I'm so, so pleased to have pwned 126.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:52 AM
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125: that's not the only thing you shouldn't do with your parents.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:53 AM
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I don't know, I thought the slash game was like the dj name game, where you can come up with any possible hypothetical and it will already exist. I'm so happy to be wrong, especially because it means I didn't kill LB!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:55 AM
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And I'd meant Aunt Dahlia/Bertie, since we were theoretically aiming for cougar incest. So Sifu wins extra in that I was unwilling to do the search myself.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:57 AM
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128: We're both thinking about taxes, aren't we.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:57 AM
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123: It is erratic and slow to react -- goes off sometimes for no reason, but where I can figure out the issue, it seems to be a function of percentage of the thread that consists of significant words. If we kept on talking about erotica, I might get locked out.

especially because it means I didn't kill LB!

Not me, just my libido.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:58 AM
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126

Thanks. Do you have any mainstream website recommendations?


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:12 AM
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There's mainstream and alternative incest erotica?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:14 AM
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It's a trap! Nice try Officer Britta.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:19 AM
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God damn it.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:19 AM
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The first result for "incest erotica":

https://www.literotica.com/storyxs/i_stor.shtml


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:20 AM
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The old text-heavy internet had erotica sites/usenet groups where people tagged stories with codes/categories. This made it easier to filter out incest stories but I guess you could search the other way. Don't know if there are contemporary equivalents, but old stories are probably still around.


Posted by: browser incognito | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:21 AM
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I typed the word "cougar" into Amazon's search engine, I see lots of prose with varying amounts of reader ratings. Goodreads has genre categories, I'm not going to pursue this one right now though.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:22 AM
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Chinese women's erotic cell phone novels

Sweet Christ in Heaven. O brave new world.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:25 AM
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I don't know anything about this, other than once receiving spam with the subject line: CONSANGUINITY IS NOTHING! FUCKING IS EVERYTHING!


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:26 AM
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Paper title, right there.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:26 AM
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In Chinese cell phone erotica, that's a single character.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:27 AM
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124 to 133, 138.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:31 AM
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If a person confronted with this new genre involuntarily thought of Gong Li and Zhang Ziyi, that would pretty much hit the racist-sexist-colonialist trifecta, wouldn't it? Asking for a friend.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:36 AM
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Tangentially related to Thorn's nipple selfie (that phrase just doesn't look right) -- What I Learned When I Tried To Draw Myself Naked.

We talked about the expectations attached to women's drawings of women's bodies. The bodies in the drawings should not be too thin. The bodies should not have boobs that are too big. The bodies should not be too fat, and if the bodies are fat, no one should say that the bodies are fat. The bodies should be beautiful. The bodies should not be overly sexualized. The bodies should not be too chaste. Women's bodies, after all, have been historically treated as objects. So if women are going to draw women's bodies, they had better understand all the implications that come with such a history. (Never mind that most of them inhabit a woman's body every day.)

Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:44 AM
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145

I believe it would make you worse than Hitler.


If you're curious, here is the NSFW cover to the story I'm reading, it's about a teenage country virgin who gets schooled in the ways of love by his wealthy aunt:

http://www.jushuge.com/book/500.html


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:48 AM
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If you don't read Chinese, it's called 'the horny aunt' or 'the lusty aunt.'


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:49 AM
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So, a woman from China was trying to explain about who gets called "uncle" and how it's not just the male siblings of your parents. Is there a similar thing for "aunt". If so, does that make it more or less creepy?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:51 AM
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Thanks. I studied Chinese for a bit, but didn't get to the part where they teach you how to write 'horny'.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:52 AM
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149

That is the case, so "aunt" doesn't need to be an actual relative, it could just be a youngish woman. Before I started reading it, I assumed the book was gonna be like, nanny erotica or something, but no, it is actually incest porn.*

*The term used is mother's younger/youngest sister. To be fair the book has established that they are definitely related, but it's possible the woman is the mom's cousin instead of sister, since people are kind of loose on those relations. The protagonist made a reference to how they didn't really share *that* much blood if you thought of it. It does make lots of references to them growing up together and her taking care of him as a child, so the cultural ick factor still remains, even if it's not biological aunt/nephew and instead 1st cousin-once-removed porn.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:04 AM
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138: archive of our own. Apparently prelapsarian del.icio.us, when it was still so styled, was the site of much innovative tagging; Maciej Cegłowski of pinboard wrote some interesting stuff about it after they migrated there.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:32 AM
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Part of that migration and Maciej's receptivity to their requests resulted in Delicious/Pinboard fanfic, which is awesome.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:33 AM
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Delicious/Pinboard fanfic, which is awesome

I would not have figured you for a necrophilia fetishist.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:35 AM
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He only reads it for the taxonomy.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:37 AM
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I for one lament that this thread has been diverted away from the always fascinating topic of nipple selfies.


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:38 AM
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156: Put up or shut up.


Posted by: Josh | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:39 AM
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I for one lament that this thread has been diverted away from the always fascinating topic of nipple selfies.

I disagree. Encountering the phrase "Chinese cell phone erotica" for the first time is surely enough to justify a threadjack.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:56 AM
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What is cell phone erotica? Is it just internet published erotica that is designed for easy downloading on a smartphone in the privacy of one's own bedroom? I read the phrase as people having sex with their cell phones which I guess would lead to some interesting Instagramming.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 11:01 AM
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One assumes texts meant to be read on one's phone.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 11:02 AM
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159: Devon Banks invented cell phone erotica.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 11:09 AM
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124 to 152.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 11:24 AM
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Western erotica sites (these are specific to erotica, mostly original rather than fanfiction - I believe ArchiveOfOurOwn is mostly fanfiction):

The Alt Sex Stories Text Repository (started an archive of the usenet groups, but allowed anyone to upload works. Many but not all stories are coded.)

http://asstr.org

StoriesOnline: Free registration required (I believe limits you to 16 stories per day), all stories categorized, with a category search. Contains a lot of the old Greenleaf novels (published pornographic novels from the 70s), as well as more recent amateur works by the site's members.

http://storiesonline.net

There is quite a LOT of cougar/incest (the word "cougar" has not taken off in the written world, but you'll find quite a lot just searching for mother/son), including a number of the Greenleaf novels.


Posted by: Shadow Wolf | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 11:27 AM
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The title and tagline combos for the stories at the link in 137 are pretty amazing.

My favorite, I think, is:

"I Get to F@#$ My Hooker Mom - He does!"

It's like the anti-upworthy strategy.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 11:34 AM
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Surely someone, somewhere has a list of Unfogged comment threads ranked by the magnitude of the topic drift. What are the top ten?


Posted by: GnOlEd DaRb | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 5:44 PM
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Also the list that touched of nudity in the flickr pool. Asking for a friend (but excellent work, commentors!)


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 5:56 PM
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It's like the anti-upworthy strategy.

This made me laugh. "This video is repetitive and uninspired. You'll never care what happens at 3:46!"


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 6:25 PM
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I think I'm going to bill for some of the time I spent in the bar tonight. Nobody I know well was here and I got work done before the wings came.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 7:30 PM
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165: This one not close to top ten. We've gone form clothing to specialized forms of lack of clothing.

In the last week alone we went form black granddaughter of Nazi war criminal to California water issues.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 7:37 PM
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Yes. I've personally covered more topics in a single thread. But, I never put up nip pictures.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 7:43 PM
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Hey, we've got nipple selfies in the Flickr pool and Chinese cougar/incest erotica. That'll do, Unfoggedtariat. That'll do.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 7:53 PM
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170: Yet.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:05 PM
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Apply Titted or Pearly Titted? We Thorn posts, you decide.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:16 PM
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I was told there would be better post title anagrams.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:16 PM
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By that do you mean actual anagrams?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:18 PM
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Honestly, it seems as if "aptly tit-led" is already pretty good.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:19 PM
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171: Right. I fear apo is down in his Bat Cave conjuring up something ungodly just to remind us of who's our daddy.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:19 PM
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175: Right. Where you don't have to cheat.

176: Ah that does work. Did not read that one in the right way. Other thought was something about the righteous bros and brosephines of Ply Delta Tit.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:25 PM
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"...everything about Pinter is in the obvious place, namely the baseball thread."


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 8:45 PM
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172: I suppose. I've been meaning to take a selfie for my linked in profile.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 9:31 PM
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If God made anything better than Cinnamon Toast Crunch, he kept it for himself.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:00 PM
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I'm not sure if 181 is comparing Cinnamon Toast Crunch to nipple selfies, cougar incest erotica, or both, but I'm pretty sure I disagree with it.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:03 PM
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I like my cougar incest cellphone erotica like I like my nipple selfies: crunchy, with a taste of cinnamon.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:29 PM
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Kinky.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:32 PM
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Normativist.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:37 PM
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Hey now, 184 made no value judgment.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 04-14-15 10:40 PM
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What Buttercup didn't mention is that they're up to chapter 632! It may be the multitude of short chapters that distinguishes cell phone erotica. And presumably makes for a business model.

SPOILER ALERT

She comes in chapter 633, again.


Posted by: NW | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 2:37 AM
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I'm grumpy that I missed the construction in 176 which was exactly the kind of stupid joke thing I was looking for.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 5:45 AM
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I'm really disappointed by 188 and the like, although it drives home that possibly I am the most juvenile. I thought that was obvious!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 5:47 AM
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I'm very mature. You guys are just a bad influence.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 5:49 AM
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Now I think I'm really grumpy. I want to be juvenile too.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 5:50 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWu3JqLMImY


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 5:52 AM
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188--you did?! You must've been addled by Thorn's selfie.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 5:53 AM
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191: If Christie doesn't take your SS, you can have a second youth in a few year.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 5:57 AM
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181: My wife refers to it as Cinammon Toast Crack.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:17 AM
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193: I hate everybody.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:18 AM
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Speaking of aging, am I too young/Catholic to wear trousers with embroidered animals?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:18 AM
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197: Not if you're golfing. Everyone looks silly then. Otherwise yes.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:30 AM
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Make sure they're powerful lions or soaring eagles. Otherwise no.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:31 AM
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That's what I figured. I'm not golfing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:33 AM
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197: I don't understand. I would have thought you might be too old to wear trousers with embroidered animals. And I didn't think Catholics had a problem with graven images, so I don't see why that would be a factor.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:34 AM
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On sale, Moby.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:39 AM
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My Google autocomplete for "pants with embroidered ..." (so even before I specify animals).

1) pants with embroidered ducks
2) pants with embroidered lobsters
3) pants with embroidered dogs


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:40 AM
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202 is what I was looking at when I wrote 197.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:41 AM
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202, 204: Half-price! Probably can't afford to pass that up!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 6:54 AM
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Well, you can pass it up. But if you do pass it up and suddenly next week you need pants with little horses on them, you'll feel stupid having to pay full price.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:08 AM
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204: Those are not OK even for a golfing WASP.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:10 AM
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Can you let me know about the situations in which you NEED pants with little horses? Maybe I don't get out enough or something. (And sorry, Stormcrow. But at least you weren't turned to stone?)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:11 AM
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I have a polo shirt embroidered with tiny whales and a bright blue sweater embroidered with tiny red lobsters; both get lots of compliments when I can bring myself to wear such gladsome clothing. I also have a green skirt cunningly embroidered with blue bicycles, but I bought it on clearance because of the bicycles several years after I had de facto given up wearing skirts and have never worn it at all. I bet it would get lots of compliments.

I do live in a provincial city where the tradition of brightly embroidered preppy golfing attire is not deeply rooted, so people probably just read them as novelty clothes.

But I feel that you are never too old for embroidered pants.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:12 AM
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208: White male privilege isn't going to assert itself.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:13 AM
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Can you let me know about the situations in which you NEED pants with little horses?

If you have to ask, you can't afford them.


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:14 AM
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Günter Grass died, but there's no way I'm going to start reading his books the way I did with Pratchett.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:17 AM
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But if everybody else wants to do a book club the The Tin Drum, I promise to be vaguely impressed by the effort.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:25 AM
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Those pants are trying too hard. You won't like a ridiculous old preppy man, you'll look like a ridiculous younger non-preppy man man pretending to dress as a ridiculous old preppy man. But if that's your thing you do you.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:28 AM
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look like


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:29 AM
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So, if not looking ridiculous isn't an option, I should go with it as it will be make look young.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:38 AM
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If Buttercup is still looking for comparative research material:

- Someone mentioned ASSTR above; you'll find a lot there, but my impression is that it's rather moribund.
- Literotica.com is still quite active, and the "Incest" category is one of the largest.
- Some years ago now, Amazon decided that it wouldn't sell incest-themed erotica through Kindle. (Bizarrely, they seem not to apply the same standard to printed books.) Then it all got re-written to involve step- or foster- relations rather than blood kin, and this fig-leaf seems to have satisfied Amazon. The keywords you are interested in are "taboo" and "pseudo-incest" or "PI".
- There is a huge collection of paperback porn at http://neatopotato.net/xnovel , which provides lots of examples of just this kink from the '60s through the '80s.


Posted by: not feeling very nymous | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:47 AM
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Younger non-preppy man men are my weakness.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:50 AM
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||Excerpt from the Dutch Cookie's graphic novel at talkingpointsmemo.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/theslice/lincoln-assassination ||


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:52 AM
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207: But a WASP golfing in embroidered wasp pants, that's the ticket.

I don't usually like embroidered-with-little-critters clothing, but I do like the pants in 202. The red is striking, while the horses break up the visual monotony.

Such a variety of critters. Ralph Lauren has/had griffins.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 7:53 AM
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And sorry, Stormcrow. But at least you weren't turned to stone

Have I not been? Not sure. I don't even know what that means. I've barely understand a word you've said in your last few comments. I'm clearly out of it and all used up, and it would be for the best if I gave up on internet life entirely other than online boggle and the occasional foray into Chinese cougar/incest cellphone erotica adjacent precincts as a nostrum for my asthenia.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:00 AM
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163, 217

Thanks! This is really helpful. I need do know at least enough about Western stuff so if I make a claim for the specificity of some aspect of Chinese erotica, I don't look like a total ass. Abstract is due today and I don't know what I'm going to say much beyond "hey this thing exists and ladies read erotica everywhere now! Also, isn't it weird this is legal in China and porn isn't?" but somehow make that sound way more intelligent. Again, this is really outside my research area.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:02 AM
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I also have to tie it into fanfic, which it bears a resemblance to but is not exactly the same as. Slashfic writers in China (at least the ones getting arrested) are all college age girls, and I get the sense the writers of erotica are as well, plus there's a similar amateurish quality and fan input into the stories. I think there's something to be said that the Chinese stuff is told from the male point of view, yet at the same time the man is submissive. This seems to run counter to most US erotica, in which it seems most common for a female POV and dominant men. This might say something interesting about Chinese women's sexuality, but I don't know what really, or if I can figure it out without doing on the ground research.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:11 AM
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This thread is mostly dead, but I just have to share: I think I came across the worst euphemism for a penis ever, which is "big mac." Think "she rubbed his big mac through his pants"


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:16 AM
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Would "his whopper" have been preferable?


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:29 AM
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McD.L.T.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:30 AM
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Just looked up Chinese for Big Mac. It seems a little less ridiculous if its local name is taken from that of a mythological giant (巨无霸).


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:32 AM
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Now I wonder if Buttercup is actually a stringer for one of those open access pay-to-publish scam journals and is pumping us for filler!


Posted by: Turgid Jacobian | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:44 AM
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open access pay-to-publish scam journals

Really, open-access journals should have caught on. I think the scam ones are a large part of the reason that hasn't happened.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:47 AM
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||

I'm an idiot who forgot that doctors can let you sit in a waiting room for two hours. Not only did I not bring my monstrous pile of grading, but I've now had to cancel and reschedule a bunch of shit, (rescheduled for the time in which I was counting on for getting the grading reduced) and jamaal is out of town this week, and it's all very frustrating.

|>


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:50 AM
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"When Burger King Got Busy In Its Own Bathroom: American Fast Food And The Erotic Imagination In Contemporary China"

You're welcome.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:50 AM
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217.4
Clones are still ok, though. Or at least cloned butts.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:53 AM
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Why do your doctors suck so much, heebie? Most doctors these days manage very short wait times, no? Look for someone who offers same-day scheduling.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:54 AM
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Some people are stuck in third world states, show some compassion Midwesterner.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:56 AM
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This is the only one of his sort in San Antonio. (Gynecological oncologist but just prophylactic matters, nothing new)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 8:58 AM
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I generally assume that if you get an early morning appointment, you won't have to wait too long. Sucks to be me!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:01 AM
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Aha. Well, that sucks.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:02 AM
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Also, same day scheduling is a thing? Aside from just getting lucky because they had a cancellation?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:02 AM
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heebie:

Just fly to Richmond. I'll get you in to see an excellent one. (I know a girl.)


Posted by: will | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:03 AM
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That would probably have been quicker.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:05 AM
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My primary care doc in California offered only same-day scheduling (as in, you couldn't schedule for any other time). You called in the morning, made your appointment for that day, and that was that. Always got an appointment and never had to wait more than ten minutes or so.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:05 AM
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The kids' pediatrician* here also reserves walk-in times for his regular patients, so we've always been able to see him that day if something has come up.

*former, since my wife changed jobs.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:07 AM
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By the way, there's a new thread up, even though no one can see it down on the page.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:07 AM
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Speaking of things being quicker, while waiting in Charlotte during a disastrous attempt to travel this weekend, I saw that a flight to Greensboro was delayed 3 hours. This flight itself would last no more than... 20 minutes? Some people could probably ride a bike there in less than 3 hours. A lot of people feeling stupid in that waiting area.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:07 AM
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Our pediatrician does that too. But specialists really don't seem to work that way very often.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:07 AM
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Yeah, that's true.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:12 AM
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This is insane. I'm having trouble not being furious.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:24 AM
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247: Well, just remember that any time you can post on Unfogged is quality time.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:31 AM
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You could always read incest porn.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:35 AM
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Is this one of the ever-popular, especially in Texas, "Change your policies to screw with patients, and then say Obamacare forced you to" strategems?


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 9:37 AM
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If I were on a computer, I'd post "how much does bedside manner matter when selecting a surgeon"? I'm lukewarm on this guy, but more importantly he's recommending a different breast surgeon than the one who has kept an eye on my mammograms for the past six years. I've always had a question mark as to whether she knew much about brca in particular, but I like her interpersonally. This guy doesn't know her, but recommends another guy who does do lots of brca. But I assume is another grating good old boy. I should discount bedside manner, right?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 10:16 AM
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Which is also to say that I'm still at the doc's office, over three hours later. I'm now halfway through, though, I think.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 10:18 AM
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I might go for the bedside manner (under the assumption that you don't have reason to think the first surgeon is actually incompetent), because you've got some sensitive conversations to have about what you want reconstruction-wise, and you don't want to get steamrollered.

Specifically, what's the concern about her specific knowledge of brca? I'm figuring your oncologist makes the go/no-go call, and it sounds as if it's been a decided go for years. You need the surgeon to be surgically skilled at performing the mastectomy, but I don't offhand see why she'd need to be a specialist in brca genetic considerations particularly.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 10:24 AM
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The GYN whose bedside manner I didn't like at all was hours late to do the procedure on me, did a job that left me in less-than-ideal circumstances, and then a few months later was arrested for possession of child pr0n or trying to hit on a police officer undercover as a tween online or something of that sort. I don't think you can generalize from this, though.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 10:33 AM
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So always ask your doctor directly if he or she is a pedophile.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 10:42 AM
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I can usually see somebody at the large practice the same day or the next depending on what it is. If I want to see my doctor, who is only in the clinic 1 day a week, it can be 2 months. If I want to see one of the residents or nurse practitioners who work closely with her, it can be a week or 2.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 10:50 AM
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My reaction to these wait-time/service-quality stories resembles Ogged's: I appear to have been living in a medical paradise.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 10:56 AM
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The ENT I saw was so overbooked; he had two exam rooms with an assistant who would run in and clean between patients.


Posted by: Bostopniangirl | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 10:57 AM
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I've only had 2+ hour wait times at low income clinics, and assumed that's another way poor people get shat on in America. Glad to know Texas doctors are equal opportunity assholes?

Finished my abstract in a way that actually sounds reasonably intelligent.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:08 AM
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"... more research is needed."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:16 AM
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259: Hooray! Did it get a title?


Posted by: Mooseking | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:18 AM
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I want to see the bibliography for this paper: "Owens, Tim 'Ripper', blog comment, 14 April 2015."


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:37 AM
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262: AIHMHBTMT, peep was cited (citation formated as in 262, if I'm remembering correctly) in a book by a famous novelist and presidential candidate speechwriter.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:46 AM
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I'm in a truck that drives up to our office to give eye exams. But apparently their new booking system doesn't actually reserve the slot you booked so there's a big wait. And the truck is tilted about 5 degrees because the street we're parked on is uneven so I'm getting sick sitting here waiting.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:46 AM
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Optical Prime.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:48 AM
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264: Not to be a snob or anything, but I'm not sure I'd trust a truck driver to test my eyes.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:50 AM
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They told me to come back later when there won't be a wait. But now it conflicts with our biweekly group beer hour. Does alcohol mess up eye exam results? It's the kind where they peer deeply into your eyes with some machine, not where you have to read a chart.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:50 AM
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I don't know if the people who ride in the back giving exams are also the ones who drive the truck. Probably one of them does, one guy has a lot of tattoos.
I also returned to my office to find a group of people on the patio outside (one floor down) doing yoga and pushups and tossing medicine balls around.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:52 AM
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267: "Something must be wrong with my eyes. I just can't see missing group beer hour"


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:53 AM
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Specifically, what's the concern about her specific knowledge of brca?

These were the onc gyn's words, his concern about her, and he rattled off some technical stuff - "Does she know about X, Y, and Z? How would she do W?" - which I obviously couldn't evaluate, which colored my impression of him as a person who rattles off over-technical stuff to me that I clearly can't evaluate.

On the drive away from there (I'm finally out!) I figured I could set up a consultation with the BRCA guy and just ask him if he knows the other surgeon and if there are any red flags with her. I do have one red flag with her, which is that she steered me to my regular OBGYN for the oophorectomy, when everyone else said to be sure to have a gyn oncologist do it.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:54 AM
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Maybe you heard wrong? "Gynecologist" and "gyn oncologist" sound almost the same.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 11:57 AM
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OT: Because I'm having to deal with some very, very highly strung people, I've been working more as a programer instead of an analyst. It kind of sucks, but I'm not sure if that's the programing or the highly strung people.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 12:30 PM
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Have you considered making an affirmative effort to begin working as an analyst again, and seeing if you can get the highly strung people talking about their childhoods/dreams/feelings about their mothers? Who knows, they might calm down.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 12:42 PM
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This is paying better, but it won't last long.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 12:48 PM
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and seeing if you can get the highly strung people talking about their childhoods/dreams/feelings about their mothers?

And if that doesn't work, roll them a doobie.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 12:51 PM
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And mail it to India?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 12:52 PM
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Oh, I guess you'll have to burn it yourself, then.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 1:18 PM
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I don't even have any.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 1:21 PM
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Plan B: Go to a bar.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 1:29 PM
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223 or if I can figure it out without doing on the ground research.

... laydeez?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 04-15-15 3:25 PM
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