Re: Princeton Irony Lady strikes again

1

Whimsical and personal! Delicacy and bluntness! French and Italian! Butler in the streets, nanny in the sheets. I give up!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 7:34 PM
horizontal rule
2

a Gen-X Princeton professor

Arguably the least-cool possible description of an individual.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 7:37 PM
horizontal rule
3

1 was very enlightening.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 7:38 PM
horizontal rule
4

Mallory Ortberg did a better job of mocking conferences and questions that aren't really questions.

Anyway, neb, you shouldn't make fun of Princeton assistant professors; you should pity them since they're going to be fired shortly.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 7:39 PM
horizontal rule
5

why gender is becoming more rather than less complicated

I can only hope this essay includes a graph.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 7:40 PM
horizontal rule
6

5 - Will it be acyclic and directed? Can we apply a topological ordering?


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 7:50 PM
horizontal rule
7

I wonder if I can get a review copy of this book.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 7:59 PM
horizontal rule
8

There is no nosflow more lovable than catty nosflow.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:00 PM
horizontal rule
9

7: yes. Write the press, explain that you are a "blogger" at an "eclectic web magazine," and I'm quite certain that some unwitting publicity flack -- no doubt a very recent graduate of Barnard or Vassar -- will send you a copy of the book.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:03 PM
horizontal rule
10

6: Modeled on Minard's graph of Napoleon's invasion of Russia.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:04 PM
horizontal rule
11

I was just thinking like a simple line plot, with the y-axis going from "totally not complicated" to "super duper complicated" and the x axis going from "a while ago" to "nowish".


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:08 PM
horizontal rule
12

I endorse 11.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:10 PM
horizontal rule
13

Like this, but with bits.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:11 PM
horizontal rule
14

But really, the part that resembles pac-man only resembles pac-man in virtue of the part which does not resemble pac-man, and vice versa; neither can be said to have the quality attributed to it alone in isolation, but only as members of a mutually determined and determining, reciprocal (wechselseitig) system.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:13 PM
horizontal rule
15

I totally thought you were referring to Princeton Mom and was wondering just how her m.o. would have been improved by a passing familiarity with Perec.


Posted by: k-sky | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:18 PM
horizontal rule
16

15.1 was my thought also.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:24 PM
horizontal rule
17

I was just thinking like a simple line plot, with the y-axis going from "totally not complicated" to "super duper complicated" and the x axis going from "a while ago" to "nowish".

Have you considered a career in strategy consulting?


Posted by: knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:34 PM
horizontal rule
18

All graphs of change over time need to include the time of 0 on one of the axes.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
19

I read Awkwardness and liked it also. I didn't real his other books because I was afraid even the not-Zizek book would somehow lead to reading Zizek.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:35 PM
horizontal rule
20

Ironically, Tiger Mom didn't attend Princeton.

Also, I've never heard of Princeton Irony Lady.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:37 PM
horizontal rule
21

OH REALLY?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
22

How much would a book like The Other Serious, published by a non-academic press, count against you in terms of tenure at Princeton? And how many powers would the negative be raised by the blurb: whimsical, paradigm-shifting, etc.?Seem like they would really draw out the long knives.

Yeah conferences are boring. It's a bunch of academics. We're boring -- a bunch of socially obtuse nerdy needy little assholes convinced that My Research is important, else ytf would we spend so much time on it. What, she thinks she's the first person to skip the sessions to sit by pool?

I dunno, maybe she's a terrific scholar in her field. In which case she might be well advised to stick to it because arch doesn't suit her.


Posted by: No longer Middle Aged Man | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
23

If you're going to study early 20th century Italian essays, why not be more interesting by going full fascist. Then you know what to do!


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
24

I, uh, have some familiarity, uh, with Professor Wampole's work and career, and the "both French and Italian" is a matter of most students in the department picking one or the other as a specialty, while she actually did the quals and coursework and so on for both fields (a great thing to do!). Uh, hey look over there, did you guys read Rebecca Goldstein's takedown of the Shop Class as Soulcraft guy? Recommended if you like this kind of thing!

Her career is certainly distinguished, you know? She is one of the more distinguished junior faculty I can think of. I'm not being Bourdieuvian here; I'm speaking in absolute terms. Her ability to bullshit aging humanists is kind of astounding and almost inspires envy. I don't know how much you'd have to pay me to get me to read the book. I'm thinking five- rather than four-digit numbers.


Posted by: alarming sycamore | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:48 PM
horizontal rule
25

Invade Fiume! Invade Corfu! Invade Abyssinia! Do it! Do it now!


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:48 PM
horizontal rule
26

Those aging humanists are pussies! Will of iron! Tanks! Motorcycles! Ancient Rome at the size of Trajan's empire! Do it! Do it now!


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:51 PM
horizontal rule
27

"Abyssinia"?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
28

I can't be expected to remember comments I wrote in 2012. Also, there's a difference between having heard of "Princeton Irony Lady" and having read an article whose author some refer to by that name.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:53 PM
horizontal rule
29

18: the early universe is notable for its unusually low smugness. If anything, without the general and unstoppable increase in smugness, we'd have no way to determine the direction of the arrow of time.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:55 PM
horizontal rule
30

24: I withdraw my snark about French & Italian, then. I did request a review copy (so you won't have to read it, you see), though I did not mention the name of the eclectic web magazine—known for its reviews and book events—for which I write, since I thought the nature of the current topmost post might decrease the likelihood of my boon being granted.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:55 PM
horizontal rule
31

It's funny that I commented that I thought the article's argument sounded like something I've read before because I'm starting to re-read it and having trouble believing I've ever read it before.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 8:58 PM
horizontal rule
32

Ehhhhh Goldstein's piece strikes me as pretty sloppy; I'm willing to believe that Crawford's book is also sloppy but it doesn't seem like a very good piece itself.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:03 PM
horizontal rule
33

maybe she's a terrific scholar in her field

and I am Marie of Rou oh Christ, the field is messed up, the standards are low; she is certainly committed and curious and all that stuff. I think I can still say no: the only objective measure is influence, and I bet she has almost zero. I'd be genuinely fascinated to learn otherwise. I also 100% approve the transformation suggested by Ripper.


Posted by: alarming sycamore | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
34

I'll just continue non-ironically narcissistically serial commenting on this thread to say I ended up with the same reaction, but still with no specific memory of having read that article before. It feels kind of David Brooksy this time.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
35

How does one reconcile "one of the more distinguished junior faculty I can think of" with "I bet she has almost zero [influence]"?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:11 PM
horizontal rule
36

35: Probably using some kind of graph.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:12 PM
horizontal rule
37

She seems to have several publications to her name, anyway.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:16 PM
horizontal rule
38

The Goldstein also struck me as sloppy but I'm the kind of person who will excuse fairly serious argumentative errors for the pleasure of reading "Crawford's argument against the Enlightenment isn't, to my knowledge, one we've heard before, since his rendition of the Enlightenment isn't, to my knowledge, one we've heard before." It's obviously not a serious engagement with the book but gives the clear impression that a lack of serious engagement is sane and healthy. Push harder here and I'll admit that I'll just take any number of dubious allies in my longstanding beef with the Committee on Social Thought.

35: oh, to make it explicit, I mean she distinguished herself by writing very bad stuff in a national forum, so, you know. Is the word not actually ambivalent like that? Maybe not.


Posted by: alarming sycamore | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:18 PM
horizontal rule
39

Does this mean I can still be ironic?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:18 PM
horizontal rule
40

It is but I don't think the reading you intended was particularly active (for this reader, anyway) in 24, rendering the ambiguity less apparent.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:19 PM
horizontal rule
41

So I guess that's a "no," Moby. I wonder if I've called someone "distinguished" with a straight face. Probably. Maybe even here.


Posted by: alarming sycamore | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:22 PM
horizontal rule
42

Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Disntiguishment


Posted by: The See Montgomery Burns Foundation | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:24 PM
horizontal rule
43

You didn't mean "distinguished" you meant "having shown distinguitude"


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:25 PM
horizontal rule
44

I meant "egregious."


Posted by: alarming sycamore | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:42 PM
horizontal rule
45

Anyway her doctoral advisor has indeed studied futurism and races motorcycles. To take it slightly back to Crawford, I have been motorcycle-curious for a long time but just don't think I could handle the noise. I like noisy music, so why not engine roar? Is it too mindless and sticky? Frequency? Has anyone here tried and gotten past it?


Posted by: alarming sycamore | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
46

You can't spell egregious professor without Regius.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
47

the pleasure of reading "Crawford's argument against the Enlightenment isn't, to my knowledge, one we've heard before, since his rendition of the Enlightenment isn't, to my knowledge, one we've heard before."

But it seems that his version of the enlightenment is actually one that we've heard many times before? Isn't it a pretty standard-issue anti-enlightenment line? I mean, maybe she hasn't in fact heard it before, but that speaks in her disfavor, not Crawford's.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 9:58 PM
horizontal rule
48

Also it's "C. Montgomery Burns", you philistine. His first name is Charles. Jesus.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 10:01 PM
horizontal rule
49

Shh. Do you want to get sued?


Posted by: The See Montgomery Burns Foundation | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 10:04 PM
horizontal rule
50

I'm not completely in agreement with 47, but I am convinced that it would be a total waste of our time to pursue the matter further here, with apologies.


Posted by: alarming sycamore | Link to this comment | 05- 4-15 10:24 PM
horizontal rule
51

I have been motorcycle-curious for a long time but just don't think I could handle the noise.

You, dear delurker, need a BMW motorcycle.


Posted by: Knecht ruprecht | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 4:35 AM
horizontal rule
52

Isn't that how people call other people assholes when they are trying to be indirect about it?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 5:19 AM
horizontal rule
53

"[D]ear delurker"?


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 5:53 AM
horizontal rule
54

13: Like this, but with bits.

Or this.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 5:55 AM
horizontal rule
55

Telling them they'd be a good customer for a BMW.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 5:55 AM
horizontal rule
56

15 & 16 were me as well if "Princeton Mom" was the don't-marry-a-third-tier-toilet-husband lady.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 5:57 AM
horizontal rule
57

You should only marry somebody who shits in a Toto or better.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 5:58 AM
horizontal rule
58

The inernetically disliked women of Princeton cohort is growing quite substantial. Maybe they should form a PAC.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 6:07 AM
horizontal rule
59

I don't see what's so wrong about blithering about conferences or irony in the pages of the NYT. Anything that takes up space potentially blocks more David Brooks from appearing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 6:09 AM
horizontal rule
60

She's definitely no more than halfway out the Line 'o The Times in Wanker-Wingnut space.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 6:14 AM
horizontal rule
61

Inernetics was the precursor to Digitalogy.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 6:21 AM
horizontal rule
62

a bunch of socially obtuse nerdy needy little assholes

Should this be an Unfogged mouseover? Should it be the motto that we hang over the door at the anarchist center where I teach a community ed class? Does it describe everyone, like an astrology column, or does it just describe me and all the people I know?


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 6:31 AM
horizontal rule
63

The latter, I think. "Nerdy" is the tip-off: you could probably cover everyone with "needy little assholes", but there's nerdy-style (Unfogged and the rest of your acquaintance) and less-nerdy style.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 6:43 AM
horizontal rule
64

||
This seems like the least-bad thread to put this in. Rowan pled guilty and was sentenced today, 10 years for the gun stuff and 3 for the credit card fraud, though he'll serve them concurrently. His lawyer didn't offer any mitigating factors, probably because he's feeling guilty and didn't want to use his history as an excuse and it's not an excuse but he sure as hell has mitigating circumstances and oh well this is why I'm not involved I guess. My mom was there so that it could be on record that she'd heard his apology, though he mumbled and she's just guessing at it. From what he's told me about parole, he'll be eligible in about 8.5 years, meaning he'll be 29 when he gets out. I was 29 when I stepped into my quasi-parental role with him, and that especially breaks my heart. But he's going into a program with sort of a trade-school focus and at least now he can get appropriate mental health and substance abuse treatment, which he couldn't in the regular jail. Fuck.

|>


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:20 AM
horizontal rule
65

That sucks. 10 years concurrent with parole at 8.5 is ridiculous. I mean not by the standards of our current system, but that's a hell of a long time to be in prison.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:30 AM
horizontal rule
66

That sucks. 10 years concurrent with parole at 8.5 is ridiculous. I mean not by the standards of our current system, but that's a hell of a long time to be in prison.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:30 AM
horizontal rule
67

I might be wrong about 8.5. The stuff about what went on in court is from my mom. The 8.5 was from him previously, but this sounds like a less-good deal than he was offered last time, so I kind of doubt that has improved. I don't know for sure yet.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:34 AM
horizontal rule
68

You, dear delurker, need a BMW motorcycle.

Alarming sycamore delurked a long time ago.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:34 AM
horizontal rule
69

Ugh. That's got to be rough on you and your mom regardless of the sentencing.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:37 AM
horizontal rule
70

I'm so sorry, Thorn. This whole thing seems so monstrously unfair for everyone involved.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:41 AM
horizontal rule
71

So sorry. That's just awful. Poor you, poor him.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:41 AM
horizontal rule
72

Engine noise is not overwhelming from on the motorcycle, it's louder behind. I agree BMW, or in fact any non-American-V-twin would be much quieter too.

And the motorcyclist's quarrel is famously with Ideas and Methods, not Social Thought.

Straight English Dept., no committee, many years ago for me. Theory before Theory.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:49 AM
horizontal rule
73

For the time being, he's safe, he's fed, he'll get some sort of minimal treatment at least and some sort of minimal education at least. All of those are better than recent alternatives. But 8+ years of that is depressing.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:50 AM
horizontal rule
74

Sounds kind of graduate school when you put it that way.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 7:53 AM
horizontal rule
75

10 years is obscene if he took a plea, people get less than that for manslaughter. Unfortunately 8.5 years might be true because some states require serving 85% of the sentence for "violent" crimes. Which means that prosecutors have almost dictatorial discretion in some cases: they can charge you with x or with y (say burglary vs larceny) and 1st or 3rd degree, so the sentence could vary from 10 years for the former combination to one year or less for the latter combo.

And there's the "trial penalty" if you take it to a jury and get convicted, which is the judge piling on some additional years because you wasted the court's time by exercising your constitutional right to a jury trial by your peers.


Posted by: No longer Middle Aged Man | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:18 AM
horizontal rule
76

God, how depressing. My sympathies to everyone involved.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:49 AM
horizontal rule
77

That's terrible, Thorn. You have my sympathies.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:02 AM
horizontal rule
78

I don't know how much wiggle room there really was. As the judge apparently said, the state cares that people have a right to go about their daily lives and not have a gun pulled on them. The gun makes it difficult to get certain charges lowered and these were all pretty clearly fitting the definition of the offense, so I don't know how much wigggle room there was because of mandatory minimums and so on. There's zero chance he could have avoided conviction in a jury trial, but I'm sad that his lawyer recommended against taking the first settlement offer and then let him end up with one that sounds definitely no better and possibly worse instead after more time in jail with no support. Sigh.

I'm okay. I've known since October or at least since he turned himself in in November that something like this is what to expect. My mom was more shaken by it, but maybe conservatives need that sort of thing, or maybe she'd been protecting herself by seeming so stable about it and now isn't, which would also be normal. We'll still be there for him and I'll visit and send packages and so on. I do hope he'll learn what he needs to be an employable former felon. And maybe by then laws will have changed enough that he can vote!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:22 AM
horizontal rule
79

And there's the "trial penalty" if you take it to a jury and get convicted, which is the judge piling on some additional years because you wasted the court's time by exercising your constitutional right to a jury trial by your peers.

Wait what? How is that remotely legal?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:26 AM
horizontal rule
80

Ugh, sorry, Thorn.

68: Pseud change? Am I dense?


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:28 AM
horizontal rule
81

A bit less than 1000 kg/m^3, I'd think.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:31 AM
horizontal rule
82

My sympathies as well, Thorn.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:33 AM
horizontal rule
83

68: Pseud change? Am I dense?

Alarming sycamore's partner is, hm, aglona stairclimber, maybe?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:43 AM
horizontal rule
84

79 Say the sentence range is 2 years min 10 years max and the prosecutor offered 4 years if you took a plea. The judge can -- and criminal attorneys I know say often will -- sentence you to ~7-8 or maybe even the full 10 just to send a message to the lawyers to tell their clients that the courts are busy and the accused better recognize that their role in the criminal justice system is fodder.


Posted by: No longer Middle Aged Man | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:44 AM
horizontal rule
85

83: Guadalupe Dinghy!


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 10:01 AM
horizontal rule
86

85 is good but I was trying to keep the initial letters matching.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 10:05 AM
horizontal rule
87

84: Oh, I see; I was imagining extra time on top of the maximum, somehow. What you describe is easier to comprehend as constitutional but still outrageous.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 10:10 AM
horizontal rule
88

oooooh shoot yeah. Aglona seems like the right choice, then. Aglona Skipjack?


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 10:11 AM
horizontal rule
89

That sucks monumentally, Thorn. My sympathies.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
90

In retrospect I should've packaged these as a book about the delicacy and bluntness of American life, about how pop culture sticks its finger deeply into the ethical dilemmas of our time, and how to negotiate between the old and new, the high and low, the global and local, the sacred and the profane.


Posted by: nareiK | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 12:05 PM
horizontal rule
91

The "Can you say more about..." construction was all over at my last conference. At first it was amusing, but then it got annoying. I was going to get up after every presentation and say, "How did you account for multiple comparisons?", but then I realized I don't have tenure and need the people in the audience to hire me.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 12:10 PM
horizontal rule
92

83: ooooohhh yeah I'm dense.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 6:48 PM
horizontal rule
93

Also drunk, but earlier I was sober and still dense.


Posted by: essear | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 6:51 PM
horizontal rule
94

For the time being, he's safe, he's fed, he'll get some sort of minimal treatment at least and some sort of minimal education at least. All of those are better than recent alternatives. But 8+ years of that is depressing.

Something to think about is his odds of success if he were to get out after only a year or two. He's obviously been using and is impulse control is so poor that he brought a stranger with a gun into your mother's house while your other children were there. He doesn't have much in the way of life skills or a support system and that there's a good chance he won't be much different at age 22 than 20. A short sentence with minimal intervention might just doom him to the revolving door. Eight years is a long time but people really are often much more stable and sensible at 29 than 20 so this might make him less likely to re-offend.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:31 PM
horizontal rule
95

just to send a message to the lawyers to tell their clients that the courts are busy and the accused better recognize that their role in the criminal justice system is fodder. if they want leniency the first step is to take some responsibility and that putting everyone through a trial when they're obviously guilty is the kind of thing that makes judges think that person has no intention of changing their ways so the best thing for everyone is to just lock them up.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:36 PM
horizontal rule
96

MY house, but I absolutely hear you, and Lee and I think something along those lines. He's tried to call me today, but only while I've been in meetings where I couldn't really answer. I hope in some respects to be more involved in helping him grow up this time around than I was the last time.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:36 PM
horizontal rule
97

You know, gswift, I am sure that is indeed how the judges involved think of it, but trials really are EVERYBODY'S RIGHT.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:39 PM
horizontal rule
98

96: Yeah, it's hard to think that a long sentence might be the best thing. But I see an endless string of young guys who only get six month to a year in jail on vehicle thefts because "nonviolent felony" and it's absolutely not doing them any favors. They so often just go right back to the same crowd, same neighborhoods, start back up on the meth, and round and round we go.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
99

97: But leniency is not.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:47 PM
horizontal rule
100

Case management isn't a legitimate goal of the sentencing process.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 8:54 PM
horizontal rule
101

You can actually be sentenced to case management in some states.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:09 PM
horizontal rule
102

100 -- no, but effective case management is (at least at a minimum) a necessary goal of the criminal justice system, and beyond that having people admit to responsibility is definitely a legit goal of the justice system. The big problem with our system in the US is that sentences are way too long and that the prisons have (for the most part -- not completely and not for everyone everywhere) completely given up on any semblance of being anything other than holding facilities/gang induction units/rape factories.

98 is definitely true to an extent but the only way to deal with it are immediate punishments that ratchet up.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:15 PM
horizontal rule
103

Multiple "completelys" = automatic self-refutation


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:16 PM
horizontal rule
104

And 98 last should be "combined with rehab." There are indeed some hardened assholes for whom the best deal = just stay the fuck out of society until you're 55 and weak, but most people and especially most addicts aren't really like that. I totally buy into rehab+ immediate and ratchet consequences for failing rehab. Plus actual straight jobs for people to do which is the hardest thing of all.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:19 PM
horizontal rule
105

That should have been 100 last. Not demonstrating skills here, but hopefully the criminal justice system will be lenient.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
106

I agree with 104 except for the "98 last", which I'm pretty sure should be 102, and in light of 105 means Ripper's already facing his third strike and that's life, motherfucker.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:30 PM
horizontal rule
107

|| OT, but OMG DS, NDP majority!|>


Posted by: Penny | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:48 PM
horizontal rule
108

97: But leniency is not.

Being punitive because someone chooses to exercise their right to a trial isn't the same as merely not being lenient.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 9:56 PM
horizontal rule
109

Sorry to hear this is how things turned out, Thorn, although I know it wasn't much of a surprise.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 05- 5-15 11:47 PM
horizontal rule
110

Obviously having people take responsibility is a pretty key goal, and I'm all for it particularly in the context of rehabilitation - but is "yes I did it now give me five years off" actually taking responsibility in any meaningful way?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 05- 6-15 1:08 AM
horizontal rule
111

Case management isn't a legitimate goal of the sentencing process.

Agreed - is it too much to ask for judges to determine sentencing based on the specifics of the offence? If you want to penalise the defendant for behaving badly in court, there's a thing called "contempt of court". What this sounds like is defining "not confessing in advance when guilty" as "contempt of court" and punishing it with a stiff prison sentence on top of the one for the original offence, which is kind of malodorous.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 05- 6-15 1:34 AM
horizontal rule
112

110 -- Compared to putting on an opening, cross-examining the state's witnesses, objecting to various bits of incriminating evidence, and making a closing argument, it kind of is.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 05- 6-15 6:02 AM
horizontal rule
113

Posted without reading. Thorn, I'm so sorry.


Posted by: Penny | Link to this comment | 05- 6-15 8:18 AM
horizontal rule
114

No problem, Penny. Yours was legitimately exciting news!!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 6-15 8:22 AM
horizontal rule
115

Is her news about Canada? I can't tell.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 05- 6-15 8:27 AM
horizontal rule
116

Yes, Alberta provincial elections.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 05- 6-15 8:28 AM
horizontal rule
117

OMG, I just pulled up Rowan's jail page to make sure he's still there since he hasn't called yet today and I see that he has an additional charge of nonpayment of court fines, as of a date five months after he entered the jail. How is that even a thing once you're incarcerated??? Am I going to have to call his public defender another million times to try to find out if there's anything I can do?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 05- 6-15 9:29 AM
horizontal rule