Re: Lyrics

1

I'm not sure, but I think listening to Men without Hats is anti-Australian.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:26 AM
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2

Is there a sharp distinction you're drawing between rap misogyny and rock misogyny?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:32 AM
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3

It's not the trolling of the own blog. It's the trolling of the blog from a 1991 issue of The Atlantic.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:37 AM
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4

Maybe they are just sexist.

And, what about black people that listen to those varieties of hip-hop? What is ogged's verdict on them?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:38 AM
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5

2: Maybe I should make a compilation of my favorite misogynistic Bob Dylan lyrics.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:39 AM
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6

Nobody can understand what he is saying anyway.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:41 AM
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7

6: Call me Nemo.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:43 AM
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8

No more gratuitous pseud switching.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:47 AM
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9

But this one has artistic merit, Mobes!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:49 AM
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6: Of course, I mostly don't understand what rappers are saying -- I make out the occasional nigga, bitch, ho etc, but I don't get enough to grasp the overall context.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:51 AM
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11

isn't a white person enjoying some varieties of hip-hop kinda racist?

But isn't a white person not enjoying some varieties of hip-hop kinda racist?


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:54 AM
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12

11: What's a poor white person to do??? Oh, the suffering! the mental anguish!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:56 AM
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13

Of course, I'm a white person who neither likes nor dislikes hip-hop enough to feel any anguish over it.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 6:59 AM
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14

So stop listening to Lil Wayne.

K'naan is pretty good-- not uniformly brilliant but sometimes yes. This one's new, is fun:
https://soundcloud.com/duckdown/knaan-in-jamaica-feat-buckshot-prod-beatnick-k-salaam



Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:05 AM
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15

Ogged is just trying to deflect attention from his love for narcocorridas.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:29 AM
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16

15. Here is one I like, about a group of bumbling smugglers who get caught in the most obvious way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VP2LpGuUb4


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:38 AM
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11: Well done.

I think Mae gets to the heart of it; what you listen to isn't much of a diagnostic. I mean, if you only hear about it second hand (say, when Fox is outraged! with excerpts and subtitles), that's going to be more stereotype reinforcing than listening to a wide variety of music and realizing there''s a continuum.


Posted by: Mooseking | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:42 AM
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18

16 - Mrs TRO: "Why are you looking at a montage of pot plants? Is that some kind of terrible Russian reggae?"


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:45 AM
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19

from a 1991 issue of The Atlantic

I googled to see if this had been discussed, and I found plenty of stuff about whether the use of "nigga" is racist, and how whites who listen to rap should feel about that, and of course there's lots of stuff about whether rap is sexist, but I didn't see anything about whites giving rap sexism a pass because of soft bigotry of low expectations racism.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:45 AM
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19 -- OK, fine, I'll play along. There were absolutely white liberals and feminists who were, in the period 15-25 years ago when such lyrics were a live issue and not a historical controversy, absolutely willing to give ludicrously sexist hip-hop lyrics a pass that they never would have given similar lyrics in music made by a white person*, generally on some kind of dubious music of the oppressed theory. It really happened! But it happened a while ago.

*I remember Eminem think pieces as a paricular site for performing such mental gymnastics; the move was generally to massively overpraise his skill and purported honesty before a few paragraphs of Slate-style chin-scratching.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 8:00 AM
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21

Called it!


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 8:04 AM
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22

Ok then. That's all I was saying. Obviously I have no idea if this is a live debate, although I'm not entirely sure what it means for this to have been relegated to history. Rap isn't sexist anymore? No one cares? People have a theory of how it's not racist to give it a pass? What was the resolution?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 8:38 AM
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OT: In unrelated whiter-than-white people news, the Flip-Pater is on an island off the coast of Maine at an annual retreat of retired Protestant clergy that his father had traditionally attended in his day. Break out the water crackers and mild Vermont cheddar and let's sit quietly and read.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 8:44 AM
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22: And does whatever conclusion also apply to the homophobia often found in reggae? I'd assume that's a different situation, since most reggae isn't homophobic, but that which is really is, practically calling for pogroms.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 8:46 AM
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22: Jay-Z is all feminist and enlightened now, so when he says "bitch" now, you know he's talking about a female dog.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 8:51 AM
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22: You're not making any sense, ogged. What's going on? Has a stupid lazy slut charmed away your brains?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 8:55 AM
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whiter-than-white people news, the Flip-Pater is on an island off the coast of Maine at an annual retreat of retired Protestant clergy

I go to a place like that off the coast of New Hampshire. There are water crackers and mild Vermont cheddar cheese, yes, but also gin and tonic.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:07 AM
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28

If which people rapped, the hit album of 1993 would have been The Tonic.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:09 AM
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most reggae isn't homophobic, but that which is really is, practically calling for pogroms.

News to me, but I'll use it to feel righteous about my lifelong disdainhatred for reggae.


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:14 AM
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30

Those sorts of lyrics remain an ongoing concern in some places, TRO; didn't we talk about the Big Sean/Princeton thing, which seems to be mainly about the lyrics about women?


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:14 AM
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31

I think if you don't go as far as this guy, you aren't serious about stopping domestic violence.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:25 AM
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32

I think people just sort of decided that to the extent these things are live issues for hip hop that sexist lyrics are just a fantasy/ridiculous trope that doesn't actually matter much, isn't meant to be taken seriously, and can be played around with/inverted (and is played around with/inverted by a lot of artisys) if you want to get all serious and political about it.

I hadn't heard of the Big Sean/Princeton thing until now but the first thing I found was Gawker media article getting mad at Princeton students for getting mad at allegedly rapey lyrics which was ... telling, maybe the first time Gawker took that side of that kind of debate. The Gawker theory was basically "shut up, don't be racist, rap is just like that." Oddly I am 100% sure that the same Gawker writer would not have taken the same position w/r/t homophobic Jamaican dancehall music*, which tells you something about the current cultural moment or something.

*admittedly, for some of it "homophobic" is a pretty drastic understatement.


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:29 AM
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33

So I actually think what people with genteel liberal values (white liberals, if you want) get out of entertainments and culture with anti-liberal values is an interesting question. I think the beginning of an answer is that rap, porn, exploitation films, violent video games, GoT, etc. are constructing fantasy spaces, and the moral upshot of what we're doing when we dwell in fantasy spaces isn't straightforward at all.

With respect to porn, /^N(a)ncy\sB(a)uer$/ had what I thought was a good essay on this a few years back (unfortunately, behind a paywall). Hope quoting this much is fair use:

"No philosophical analysis of pornographic objectification will enlighten us unless it proceeds not from the outside, from the external standpoint of academic moralism, but from the inside, from a description of pornography's powers to arouse. Such a description reveals that, within the pornographic mise-en-scène, there is no space for the concept of objectification. The world as pornography depicts it is a utopia in which the conflict between reason and sexual desire is eliminated, in which to use another person solely as a means to satisfy one's own desire is the ultimate way to respect that person's humanity and even humanity in general.

In the real world, the unbridled expression of sexual desire is fundamentally incompatible with civilization, and in every culture there are harsh punishments for those whose lust gets the better of them. Most of us, the lucky ones, can discipline ourselves, more or less, not to act on our sexual urges when we don't think we should. We sublimate, harnessing our sexual vitality in the service of advancing civility and civilization.

In pornographic representation, civilization, though it sometimes gamely tries to assert itself, always ultimately surrenders to lust. But sexual desire is shown to be a gentlemanly victor: rather than destroy civilization, it repatriates it. Civilization pledges to uphold the laws of the pornutopia, in which the ordinary perils of sexual communion simply don't exist. Everyone has sex whenever the urge strikes, and civilization hums along as usual: people go to work and school, the mail gets delivered, commerce thrives. The good citizens of the porn world, inexorably ravenous, are also perfectly sexually compatible with one another. Everyone is desired by everyone he or she desires. Serendipitously, as it always turns out, to gratify yourself sexually by imposing your desires on another person is automatically to gratify that person as well.

Here, we see Kant turned on his head. Rather than encouraging us to live as though in a kingdom in which our common capacity for rationality enjoins us to regard all people, ourselves included, as ends-in-themselves, the porn world encourages us to treat ourselves and others as pure means. And what's supposed to license this vision is the idea that desire, not reason, is fundamentally the same from person to person, as though our personal idiosyncrasies were merely generic and reason could have no role to play in a true, and truly moral, sexual utopia.

In the pornutopia, autonomy takes the form of exploring and acting on your sexual desires when and in whatever way you like; to respect your own and other people's humanity, all you have to do is indulge your own sexual spontaneity. No one in the pornutopia has a reason to lose interest in or fear or get bored by sex; no one suffers in a way that can't be cured by it; no one is homeless or dispossessed or morally or spiritually abused or lost When Daddy fucks Becky, she doesn't experience it as rape. She comes."


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:42 AM
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34

33 before seeing 32, which I basically agree with.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:45 AM
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35

some kind of terrible Russian reggae

I suppose this must exist?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:46 AM
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36

I think this pair of pictures sums up how seriously rap lyrics should be taken.


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:46 AM
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37

Here, we see Kant turned on his head.

I know about Rule 34, but I guess I still didn't expect that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 9:48 AM
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32.33 and in general: bullshit

If it isn't transgressive, it isn't any fun.

The cocktail of guilt, fear, horror, desire, pleasure etc is really really complicated...but the meaning is in the mashup.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 10:07 AM
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35. Link is to CZ, not RU. This one's a rant against shitty internet commenters:
https://soundcloud.com/batelierrecords/kato-prago-union-sista-carmen

Both musically feeble but lyrically nice.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 10:08 AM
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Secondly, there is no bright line between explicit porn and all the milder expressions or impressions of lust, as in, well, hell, read your Freud. Everything.

Thirdly, I do not understand analyzing porn, here let's say explicit, without seeing it as containing some kind of narrative and context, mostly internal to the viewer. That is why there is so much of it, in such a variety:because our boats float on oceans of difference.

Desire without reason would mean everybody was equally excited by brunettes or bondage.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 10:16 AM
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41

Do I get a pass on enjoying some varieties of hip-hop since I also don't get my boxers wadded about, say, Frank Zappa?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 10:35 AM
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42

the moral upshot of what we're doing when we dwell in fantasy spaces isn't straightforward at all.

I can't now remember if I actually posted something long about this, or just thought about doing so.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 10:43 AM
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41: Pass on racism, yes.

However, you are condemned without any reservations for misogyny and sexism.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 10:44 AM
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44

Here, if anyone is interested in moving beyond circle-derping.

Jump and Fujoshi

Jump as in Shonen Jump, the main boy's manga magazine in Japan. The blog writer is a young woman into doujinshi, shonen-ai, and explict yaoi.

I found it yesterday when thinking about how women might change what is represented in GoT.

The article linked is about the history of women's fascination with boy's manga, example basketball stories, and how women's practice of shipping male characters into sexual relations in fan fiction, and publishers noticing that part of their audience, changed the visual art of manga, the character designs into bishonen, or pretty boys, until today the style of early Dragon Ball Z mains has almost disappeared.

Wiki bishonen if you need it


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 10:51 AM
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43: Seems like a fair compromise.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 10:54 AM
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46

OK, but Dweezil is right out, right?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 11:11 AM
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47

Dweezil has found his niche.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:03 PM
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48

||Apparently you can resume masturbating to Eastern Airlines after a 24-year break. Its inaugural flight is to Havana.|>


Posted by: TRO | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:25 PM
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49

lifelong hatred for reggae

Dead to me.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06- 2-15 7:49 PM
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50

There just was rap misogyny controversy this week:

http://www.refinery29.com/2015/06/88368/action-bronson-nxne-consensual-rape

I think the current official ruling is that it is not ok for white rappers who are not eminem.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 06- 3-15 6:19 AM
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48: Thanks, TRO! That felt goooood!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06- 3-15 6:30 AM
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48, 51: No thanks. "The Wings of Man" was just lame. But if National Airlines ever comes back please let me know, particularly if they revive the "I'm Cheryl, Fly Me," and "Take me I'm Yours" ad campaigns

http://www.stuffmomnevertoldyou.com/blog/best-of-the-worst-vintage-airline-ads-im-cheryl-fly-me/

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/oaaaarchives_AAA7422/



Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 06- 3-15 6:43 AM
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