Re: Trying to Make Mom Friends

1
and I drank my half-glass of wine I could get away with drinking while breast-feeding

Welp, looks like she and I wouldn't be mom friends.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:24 AM
horizontal rule
2

You need to learn a "that's just more for me" approach to drinking.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:25 AM
horizontal rule
3

"Oh, cool. Do you mind listening for my kid then while I get wasted?"


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:26 AM
horizontal rule
4

Also, never look a gift designated driver in the mouth.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:27 AM
horizontal rule
5

We try to drive as little as possible because Zardoz gets carsick.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:28 AM
horizontal rule
6
I was not happy, and I did not know it. I blushed with shame, not wanting to jump up and shout hooray.

Oh, for Christ's sake. It's infant storytime. No one gives a shit.

I do see where she's coming from, and she does sound like she might be happier back at work. I had a long maternity leave, which was great, except that all of my friends are faculty with jobs, and the stay-at-home mom community here is not only heavily Mormon but very young. I don't have a lot in common with a 22-year-old who can't understand how I could be having my first kid at 34, and who has her entire social circle filled with her ward.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:28 AM
horizontal rule
7

5: That's not good. We used to drive around to put ours to sleep.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:31 AM
horizontal rule
8

On Memorial Day weekend we gave her Dramamine and had a puke-free hour+ drive. Is she growing out of the carsickness, or was it the Dramamine? Don't know, and not going to experiment to find out. She's going to be taking Dramamine from now until forever.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:33 AM
horizontal rule
9

Maybe a Zipcar membership for the test phase?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:35 AM
horizontal rule
10

Oh, man, Blume. That is truly awful. At least you don't have a regular car commute, right?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:37 AM
horizontal rule
11

She's still rear-facing or have you flipped her forward? That might make a big difference.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:38 AM
horizontal rule
12

We moved her to forward facing soon after she started the puking thing, but it didn't seem to make much difference. But yeah, luckily we don't have to go anywhere in the car except the beach. Tweety walks her to daycare in the stroller.


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:40 AM
horizontal rule
13

Maybe if you turned her sideways?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:41 AM
horizontal rule
14

You need the cheat code. Front, Back, Back, Left, Right, Left, Left, Front.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:42 AM
horizontal rule
15

This makes me sound like the evil fairy or something, but I was carsick as a very small child and then started having migraines young and apparently there's often a connection. I of course hope that's not the case for Zardoz but I'm throwing it out there in case you need to know in 7 years or something. That said, my littlest brother threw up on every car trip over 20 minutes (my mom just made him keep a towel on his lap when she did HS carpool) for a year or two and then stopped completely and never had any other related problems at all.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:42 AM
horizontal rule
16

After Jammies saw those puke-accordion bags they use in the hospital, he bought some online to keep in the car for roadtrips.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:44 AM
horizontal rule
17

I also had terrible carsickness (I still get queasy quite easily in the car), and no migraines here. Fingers crossed it's genetic in that element!


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:55 AM
horizontal rule
18

and told them how much like high school it was

How much like any group of people organized to be doing the same thing at the same time, who have only that in common.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:06 AM
horizontal rule
19

I kind of hate, kind of love these pieces where the author sets out to seem human and relatable, and inadvertently reveals that she's kind of an unpleasant person. This seems to have very little to do with motherhood, and a lot to do with the fact that if you're too cool for school, every new social situation is going to be more overwrought than it needs to be. I speak from experience here, but I'm too cool for school only to moderate, human, and relatable degrees.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:06 AM
horizontal rule
20

There should be a Grindr-like app for new moms to find mom friends. You could specify parenting styles and swipe until you find someone relatively close who has a similar parenting philosophy. Free idea, just deal me in on the IPO, please.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:19 AM
horizontal rule
21

Breedr.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:37 AM
horizontal rule
22

Kindr.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:42 AM
horizontal rule
23

Mothr has the downside that it would be associated erroneously with Mothra.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:47 AM
horizontal rule
24

Is "downside" one of those words that has confusing meanings in British English vs. regular English?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:01 AM
horizontal rule
25

Downsid Abby


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
26

It's what happens when you table your tank top.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
27

It means "disadvantage". What does it mean in provincial English?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:44 AM
horizontal rule
28

27: The same meaning, but Mothra gives us provincials the warm-fuzzies, hence the confusion.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:49 AM
horizontal rule
29

I would happily play a "Rampage" like video game where giant monsters like King Kong, Godzilla, and a huge Werewolf destroy UMC Mom culture.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:10 AM
horizontal rule
30

28: but that's why it's a downside; you'd turn up hoping for Mothra and be terribly disappointed.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:16 AM
horizontal rule
31

Tedra once planted the idea in my head that finding Mom Culture deathly awful was a form of misogyny, which was one hell of a gordian knot to mentally tie me up in.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:18 AM
horizontal rule
32

Wreck-It Patriarch


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:19 AM
horizontal rule
33

I would happily play a "Rampage" like video game where giant monsters like King Kong, Godzilla, and a huge Werewolf destroy UMC Mom culture.

It would obviously be called "Yummy: Mummies!"


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:21 AM
horizontal rule
34

New game -- MILF or MILBU?


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:33 AM
horizontal rule
35

finding Mom Culture deathly awful was a form of misogyny

I had the same thought just now; of course I was privy to that conversation too, and may have learned it there.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:38 AM
horizontal rule
36

The same conversation Heebie just referred to.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:41 AM
horizontal rule
37

I remember reading this article and others like it before kids, and it made having a kid sound so grim. My experience (infections and all) is that it's...really not. I get that it is for some people, but the last paragraph sounds like it's written by someone so miserable they can't believe others are actually happy. "They're either miserable or fake happy or smug." That sounds like how I felt about couples when I was struggling through a divorce: surely no one was _actually_ happy long-term, right? Everyone else was also hiding on-going power-struggles and lingering misery.

But no, everyone else is not secretly miserable. It's not a conspiracy; you just need some help.

It seems deeply problematic to me that the trope of "parenthood is miserable" is an accepted piece of our social wisdom.


Posted by: parodie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:42 AM
horizontal rule
38

Yeah - but that's exactly what someone who was secretly miserable would say, isn't it. You don't fool me one bit.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:47 AM
horizontal rule
39

Hey, if fake happy is this much fun, I'll take it.


Posted by: parodie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:55 AM
horizontal rule
40

I still don't have any "Mom" friends (M and P are almost 5 and 6 now). Some of my friends had kids (about 3-5 years after mine) I went back to work right away and have pretty much always worked a pretty full-on career job. Maybe it is internalized misogyny - or just being a misanthrope but I don't relate to that whole scene and mainly try to avoid any of the mommy wars. I worry about the trend of women staying home with their kids because of exorbitant childcare and a focus on doing all kids of "enriching" "activities" that make families so busy and scheduled. I doubt I will have any more kids but if I do - I want to go back to work right away - like within 2-4 weeks (working part-time from home etc) I just don't handle the infant-toddler stage very well.


Posted by: RebeccaS | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
41

I still don't have any "Mom" friends (M and P are almost 5 and 6 now). Some of my friends had kids (about 3-5 years after mine) I went back to work right away and have pretty much always worked a pretty full-on career job. Maybe it is internalized misogyny - or just being a misanthrope but I don't relate to that whole scene and mainly try to avoid any of the mommy wars. I worry about the trend of women staying home with their kids because of exorbitant childcare and a focus on doing all kids of "enriching" "activities" that make families so busy and scheduled. I doubt I will have any more kids but if I do - I want to go back to work right away - like within 2-4 weeks (working part-time from home etc) I just don't handle the infant-toddler stage very well.


Posted by: RebeccaS | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
42

If you wear Google Glass, is there some app or extension where you can summon the monsters from Rampage to virtually-reality destroy everything in your field of vision? That might get me to wear Google Glass.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 10:16 AM
horizontal rule
43

It seems deeply problematic to me that the trope of "parenthood is miserable" is an accepted piece of our social wisdom.

I wonder how much of this is due to a couple of things: 1) people having children later, and the consequent awareness of fertility struggles, and 2) Facebook, and the Insufferable Blessed. Given those two things, saying, "man, this sucks" is both a way to be socially kind to those who can't have kids, and to separate oneself from the IB.

Of course, that's pretty superficial. It's also really fucking hard to have kids because American childcare is so exorbitant/fucked-up/unavailable and jobs are often so demanding, so there's something real behind the complaint.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 10:18 AM
horizontal rule
44

is there some app or extension where you can summon the monsters from Rampage to virtually-reality destroy everything

The most powerful app there is, Robert. It's called "your imagination."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 10:21 AM
horizontal rule
45

44.2: Somebody watches SpongeBob!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 10:34 AM
horizontal rule
46

That was the only movie I've seen in the theater for 2015.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 10:35 AM
horizontal rule
47

46: One more than me.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 10:44 AM
horizontal rule
48

I felt pretty miserable the first summer when Hawaii was a baby. Everything was overwhelming and yet simultaneously I was bored to tears, and if I could go back in time and tell myself to turn on the goddamn television, I'd be a millionaire.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:19 AM
horizontal rule
49

I feel like the common cultural UMC Mom trope isn't exactly that parenting is miserable, it's that it's BEING A MOM IS THE BEST AND MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD AND A BLISS YOU CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND UNLESS YOU ARE A PARENT but because it is SO IMPORTANT it is also HARD WORK and requires TOTAL KNOWLEDGE AND MAKING LIFE-CRITICAL DECISIONS EVERY DAY, so, you know, don't screw it up, you loser!

I'd like to start the "just say fuck it parenting" movement. Not "free range kids" or ideological nonsense like that, just a commitment to chill out, not worry, and half-ass it. Of course I don't practice what I preach.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:26 AM
horizontal rule
50

finding Mom Culture deathly awful was a form of misogyny

No. There's probably a kernel of something in that overly broad assertion, but as stated? Nope.

(But boy T was good at pushing buttons, eh?)


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:28 AM
horizontal rule
51

49.2: I am on the cutting edge of this movement.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:33 AM
horizontal rule
52

I was going to say, will we be trolled from beyond the grave?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:33 AM
horizontal rule
53

Alternate theory: it's somewhat like Calvinist predestination,* where you can't actually know if you're damned or saved (i.e., whether you're actually doing a good job as a parent and your kids will turn out "OK" by UMC standards [i.e., go to Stanford]), so there's both pressure to do all kinds of good works ( storytime, music classes) combined with a fundamental anxiety that all such things might be meaningless. There's also simultaneous pressure to act blissful to demonstrate that you're one of the elect (i.e., good, happy parent with good kid). While at the same time you're riven with anxiety, because you can never really know either whether you are a "good parent" or whether anyone else is, either.

*cartoon version, I actually quite like Calvin
**I actually really like being a parent, too, but that's different than the pressures of organized UMC Mom-dom.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:36 AM
horizontal rule
54

I'd like to start the "just say fuck it parenting" movement. Not "free range kids" or ideological nonsense like that, just a commitment to chill out, not worry, and half-ass it. Of course I don't practice what I preach.

I don't even have a parenting ideology.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:42 AM
horizontal rule
55

cartoon version, I actually quite like Calvin

Me, too! But Hobbes is my favorite!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:42 AM
horizontal rule
56

53: This is brilliant. Of course, it's a brilliant analogy. So get out -- we don't want your kind on this blog.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:44 AM
horizontal rule
57

The implication - and maybe this is true - is that the whole UMC mom syndrome is driven by intense feelings of class insecurity. Seems reasonably likely.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:47 AM
horizontal rule
58

Can we please work on the self-esteem of these parents?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:48 AM
horizontal rule
59

49.1 made me laugh in relief. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the narrative.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:53 AM
horizontal rule
60

I have to admit I've upped my parenting outcome standards to "no gun felonies" (for the kids; I think I'm safe on that front) and I feel pretty okay about that. I am really glad the girls and I are not in a majority-UMC bubble.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:54 AM
horizontal rule
61

It occurs to me too that my experience is coloured by my northern socialist background and enlightened topless present (ha, breastfeeding reference). In other words, some semblance of support for parenting and no need to fret about going back to work/getting "back to normal" from the moment the baby is born, no excessive stress about financial insecurity if anything goes at all wrong, and reasonable health care.


Posted by: parodie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 11:58 AM
horizontal rule
62

I find weekends pretty awful. Or at least, they're in this precarious state where I know at some point, it will be awful. There will be some stretch which exceeds everyone's patience and no clear exit route out of the situation for at least another 30-60 minutes.

In hindsight, the weekend is almost never that awful, but still I feel like it's out of my control whether or not I have an awful day, at least.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:00 PM
horizontal rule
63

49 Will no one stop thinking of the children?


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:04 PM
horizontal rule
64

Still, it's totally worth it, right?


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:07 PM
horizontal rule
65

Nah, in retrospect, cats would have been cheaper.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:07 PM
horizontal rule
66

I'm doing it all to shore up my success in the Alzeihmer's years.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:09 PM
horizontal rule
67

I probably just didn't read very closely, but when I read that article I assumed that the author *had* gone back to work. Which can leave a mother just as horribly out of place -- don't really fit in with the career crowd because you have that baby to get home to; don't fit in with the mom stay-at-home crowd because you are off at that job during prime mommy socializing time.


Posted by: dk | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:14 PM
horizontal rule
68

I think what got my goat was 43's: saying, "man, this sucks" is both a way to be socially kind to those who can't have kids"

"being socially kind to those who can't have kids?" Really, many of those who don't have kids don't need or want that sort of alleged kindness. If "parenthood sucks" is meant to be a salve to those, it's unwanted and unnecessary. I'm pretty sure the parenting sucks routine is directed to those who do have kids. At least I hope so.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:17 PM
horizontal rule
69

organized UMC Mom-dom

A frightful combination of fetishes.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:18 PM
horizontal rule
70

ogged, I'll disagree. I think there are dueling narratives. The first is that parenthood is the most amazing thing and that it's all sunshine and laughter and meaningful hard work; the "parenthood is hell" is a reaction to that. Social groups being what they are, I'd bet most people encounter one narrative most of the time, and the "hell" reaction is either acceptable for the reasons you said, or a sort of naughty escape from loving every minute. I'm in sunshine-laughter #soblessed central here.

49: Change out "parent" for "mom", and that's pretty much it. If it turns out that rearing small children requires a doctorate from Harvard, then every decision must be completely significant, and totally makes up for not having a career. Did you know it's the hardest job in the world?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:22 PM
horizontal rule
71

I never did the mom-of-baby social thing as didn't take time out of law school because couldn't afford to not graduate on time (obvs missed a few classes when the kid was born) so was always plenty busy and also that scene seemed not so interesting to me and actually kind of anxiety inducing. Partly because it seemed heavily consumption driven and we had fewer than two beans to rub together, partly because if I had the opportunity to enjoy conversation with another adult would rather talk about non-baby mutual interests with a modest leavening of baby commentary, and relatedly partly most people had already had babies even if years ago or were otherwise already friends of ours and so at least open to a relationship with our baby so never felt like the only people who could possibly understand or "relate" to me were other mothers of babies.

We're raising the kid with a completely normal range of over the top investment in certain things important to us and abject neglect of things others believe crucial. Sometimes we're in the UMC norm, often we fall outside it.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:23 PM
horizontal rule
72

I think more people saying that should try to work in a Pakistani brick factory.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:24 PM
horizontal rule
73

"being socially kind to those who can't have kids?" Really, many of those who don't have kids don't need or want that sort of alleged kindness.

Dude, Parsimon, choosing not to have kids is way different than being childless due to infertility.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:26 PM
horizontal rule
74

Dudimon?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:28 PM
horizontal rule
75

No, no, heebie, clearly the only context for that reading is that anyone without children must be shamed. Shamed!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:28 PM
horizontal rule
76

I am already completely nauseated by the increasing references to any interest or activity being fodder for college applications, people actually refer to it as resume building. For 14 year olds. Puke.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:29 PM
horizontal rule
77

||

Also, I've had the most positive experience with FEMA today. Two nice people knocked on my door, and encouraged me to register despite my saying that we were totally fine. "They'll inspect the foundation and make sure nothing shifted. You won't be caught offguard in two years if something delayed shows up." So I agreed.

Then, within the hour, the inspector called me and set up an appointment. She showed up right on time, inspected the foundation, and pronounced us good to go.

WHAT A NICE AGENCY.

|>


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:30 PM
horizontal rule
78

Just wait til the invasion gets going. They were just spying on you to decide whether to send you to one of their reeducation camps, or just up against the wall right away.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:33 PM
horizontal rule
79

They probably wrote instructions for the UN occupation troops in invisible ink on the pilings of your house.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:33 PM
horizontal rule
80

76: that isn't new.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:33 PM
horizontal rule
81

Oh, shit. Carp.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:34 PM
horizontal rule
82

Wouldn't I want to be pre-registered with the feds, for when Obama invades?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
83

I certainly don't expect Abbott to save my ass.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
84

I was oblivious to this when it was me doing the applying. The ubiquitousness of it has been an unpleasant discovery.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:36 PM
horizontal rule
85

77: They gave my brother 150k to lift his house. Or someone did. But that was nice.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:42 PM
horizontal rule
86

I don't care how much they pay me, I couldn't lift that much.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:45 PM
horizontal rule
87

I do have an 2 pound tent that I'm thinking of inflicting up nature soon.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:46 PM
horizontal rule
88

With poles and a ground cloth, it's more like 3 pounds, but I can still lift it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:49 PM
horizontal rule
89

73: Dude, Parsimon, choosing not to have kids is way different than being childless due to infertility.

Yes and no: that's not a binary set of conditions. You can be infertile and still choose not have kids (not adopt); you can be able to have kids but decide not to because it would be a significant risk to your own health. What's annoying, as I'm sure everyone is aware, is the assumption that of course everyone would have kids if they could.

This is an old and tired discussion -- I'm just a little surprised that still people seem to behave as though of course everyone would have kids.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:49 PM
horizontal rule
90

On the parenting is awesome front, today the 2 ½ year old used the potty all by herself while I was asleep on the living room floor.


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 12:54 PM
horizontal rule
91

150k will buy a looong lever.


Posted by: Archimedes | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:01 PM
horizontal rule
92

Laydeez.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:01 PM
horizontal rule
93

89 is full of stuff that is true. But Ogged did say "a kindness to those who can't have kids," not "to those who don't."


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:01 PM
horizontal rule
94

93: Fair enough, though I somehow read "can't have kids" as "haven't had kids". This stuff makes me grumpy, as you can see, so I'm off.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:05 PM
horizontal rule
95

I get grumpy where I hear about kids who use the potty all by themselves at a young age and don't dump it on their sleeping parents.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:07 PM
horizontal rule
96

95: Did you adopt a frat pledge?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:11 PM
horizontal rule
97

No. Just couldn't get any self-directed potty use at all, so I always hoped there was a hidden dark side.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:24 PM
horizontal rule
98

Don't worry, I have probably doomed myself and will be back later with a comment about parenting horrors like accidents on the carpet.


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:25 PM
horizontal rule
99

We have wood floors.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:29 PM
horizontal rule
100

I kind of assume parenthood will improve my relationship with a longtime friend. He and his wife had a daughter about 10 months ago or so, and I've seen him twice since then. Compared to probably more than monthly before then. I can imagine worse ways to reconnect than babysitting.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 1:34 PM
horizontal rule
101

My brother & SIL got a ton of money after Katrina -- I can't remember if it was from FEMA or who. Their house was one of those that got flooded out. They had to live in a tiny little trailer in their driveway for about a year before they got the money, but it was well enough to rebuild the house, as I recall.

My SIL (who rebuilds houses for fun anyway) rebuilt it, and then they sold it, to someone who's an idiot, I assume, as it's in a flood area.

Re kids and cats: Raising kids like cats seems like a great idea. Why haven't we thought of this before? Put out plenty of food and water and toys! Also boxes for them to crawl into. Maybe a litter box? Where is the flaw in this plan?

(Do you think we could get them to chase the little red dot?)


Posted by: delagar | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 2:21 PM
horizontal rule
102

I had a related idea about teaching dogs to use a toilet (the "Turkish" kind that sits level with the floor).


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 2:23 PM
horizontal rule
103

This is an old and tired discussion -- I'm just a little surprised that still people seem to behave as though of course everyone would have kids.

Are you talking about someone in this thread?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 2:26 PM
horizontal rule
104

101.3: One of the lawyers on the girls' cases assured us that raising teen girls is easy. You just shut them in the attic, throw tampons and granola bars up the stairs, and tell them not to talk to you until they're human again. I don't think that will be my approach, but it seems like a variation on theist theme. (She raised four or five bio and adopted girls all in the same small age range while putting herself through law school as a single parent, which I like to remind myself is harder than what I'm doing even including the toilet-training stuff.)


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 2:27 PM
horizontal rule
105

I really never thought I'd be a parent who talks about your attitude but Hawaii cultivates an amazing attitude that must at times be addressed. In general, she ranges between valley girl and upscale professional, and has an amazing grasp of withering and condescension that I've seen her use with her slightly older peers, outstripping them. It's awe-inspiring but it is not particularly kind of her. It's a weird spot to be in as a parent.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 2:30 PM
horizontal rule
106

105: It's this secret power but she's not yet able to control it and wield it effectively. That's basically the plot of Frozen.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 2:35 PM
horizontal rule
107

101.3- Check.
102- Check.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 2:48 PM
horizontal rule
108

I'm not sure I want actual information as I enjoy my process of pure reason.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 3:05 PM
horizontal rule
109

That looked precarious.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 3:17 PM
horizontal rule
110

Jesus, if all it took to feed them was granola bars, I'd be rich.

I think ogged was right (for once) in 19. That last part of that last paragraph was just miserable. Who wants to be friends with tired people whose clothes don't fit? Yuck!


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 3:33 PM
horizontal rule
111

Other university employees?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 3:38 PM
horizontal rule
112

||
Fact-checking David Brooks.

This seems somewhat similar to the dissection LB did on that paragraph from Graeber's Debt, in the "how many errors could the author fit in this one sentence" sense. However, in Brooks' case, refuting the errors requires finding the original study.

|>


Posted by: Dave W. | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 4:05 PM
horizontal rule
113

ogged was right (for once)

Why Asilon, why?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 5:32 PM
horizontal rule
114

Stopped clocks and all.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 5:42 PM
horizontal rule
115

I appreciate that no fruit hangs too low for you to pluck.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 5:48 PM
horizontal rule
116

That one was right at eye level.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:12 PM
horizontal rule
117

Are you two flirting?


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:25 PM
horizontal rule
118

Well, now that we have a chaperone...


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:31 PM
horizontal rule
119

I'm planning a hiking trip, unless it looks like a rainy weekend.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:32 PM
horizontal rule
120

Last time, I went out 8 miles the first and and 7 miles back (I went the wrong way at the start). That was less than a half day of effort both days. I think I can do 15 miles both way. That seems a reasonable stretch, right?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:44 PM
horizontal rule
121

112 is interesting, and I'm quite sympathetic to fact-checkers since I tend to do that myself. But he seems to spend a long time getting to (what I think is) the point: David Brooks isn't deliberately lying about the study. He just doesn't care enough to get things more than approximately right. And if he can do so in a way that plumps his pet theory, all the better.

I am of the bias that willful carelessness is often as bad as intentional deceit, but they're not the same thing. And David Brooks reminds me of umpteen pop-culture speakers I've seen, who aren't actually interested in the details of the research they cite, because to them findings aren't facts -- they're just argument chits, to be used to advance their predetermined beliefs.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:50 PM
horizontal rule
122

It's possible I am slightly bitter because I am wrapping up a study where I am citing findings as facts and one of my co-authors wants to use them as chits.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:52 PM
horizontal rule
123

How do you draw the confidence interval around a shit?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:56 PM
horizontal rule
124

shit s/b chit.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 6:58 PM
horizontal rule
125

Shit seems like a more interesting case.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:07 PM
horizontal rule
126

They asked me if we really needed to include the P values.

I'm not a statistician. I never even took a stats class. But at least I understand how to rigorously present data so readers can form an informed opinion about it!


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:08 PM
horizontal rule
127

Also, Tweety is right.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:09 PM
horizontal rule
128

That just reminds me of my new hiking goal. Never hike where they make you surround your shit with plastic and carry it out.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:13 PM
horizontal rule
129

Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but turds.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:15 PM
horizontal rule
130

If it's good enough for the Pope, why not, right?


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:16 PM
horizontal rule
131

This hike is brought to you by the makers if Fiber One bars. Sure, Cliff Bars will give you more nutrition, but you can't crap every other mile while eating them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:16 PM
horizontal rule
132

"Sure we'll share our data from our study."

Date delivered in form of: bag of shit left on the doorstep.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:17 PM
horizontal rule
133

As per IRB regulations.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:19 PM
horizontal rule
134

Irritable Research Bowel


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:21 PM
horizontal rule
135

I am citing findings as facts and one of my co-authors wants to use them as chits

I am having trouble parsing this. What does chits mean in this context?


Posted by: Blume | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:24 PM
horizontal rule
136

123 seems like public health expertise. Minivet? ("You so rarely meet a mad _social_ scientist.")


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:28 PM
horizontal rule
137

128: fecal smearing instead?


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:29 PM
horizontal rule
138

135: E.g., I want to say "Respondents were asked to select their reasons for commenting on Unfogged, and were told to select as many of the eight answers as applied. Free time was the most frequently selected reason for commenting on Unfogged, with 51% of overall respondents selecting this option. Procrastination was the second most common response, with 24% of all respondents choosing this answer."

and they want to say "Three out of every four women commenting on Unfogged say they are there to waste time!"

I am actually grateful to my academic partner on this, who is holding the line on factual data. I just cannot imagine the mindset of a person who thinks that you can just aggregate response categories like that on a choose all that apply question. Like, what are they THINKING? I would pay money to know.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:32 PM
horizontal rule
139

Reviewer's comment: "While they did find evidence of bowel movement, it was not enough to add significantly to the findings of earlier studies."


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:33 PM
horizontal rule
140

(I was using chit in the sense of a gambling token, in case that's not clear.)


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:34 PM
horizontal rule
141

136 doesn't fit with what I've seen of social science.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:38 PM
horizontal rule
142

Social science has more mad people than health science. Also, no money. That's what keeps the world safe.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:44 PM
horizontal rule
143

142 recapitulates the actual punchline in Girl Genius.


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 7:57 PM
horizontal rule
144

Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but turds.

A bad idea if you're hiking Denali.

. . . Human waste, though, remains a problem. It doesn't break down in Denali's frozen climate, whether it's been flung into a crevasse out of sight or left on the surface, exposed to the ice and snow. "The breakdown is very minimal," Robinson says. "There's none in the ice. When it's in the glacier itself there's none; there's none up high where it's cold. We've collected waste that's been left out on the surface, higher on Denali, that's been out for a year or two and there was no breakdown."

Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:15 PM
horizontal rule
145

143: Maybe I saw that and it sprang up? Probably not, but maybe I heard it here.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:17 PM
horizontal rule
146

144 Don't let it be said there's no upside to global warming!


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:30 PM
horizontal rule
147

146: so that shit will roll downhill!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:43 PM
horizontal rule
148

There should be a game show called Serpent or Sorcerer?

I don't know what the game would be, neb will have to figure that out.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
149

It's funny because it's true. (145, whatever.)


Posted by: clew | Link to this comment | 06-15-15 9:07 PM
horizontal rule
150

113 - an attachment disorder, abandonment issues, something like that.


Posted by: asilon | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 12:12 AM
horizontal rule
151

Like, what are they THINKING? I would pay money to know.

Clearly a study of social scientists is called for. A survey composed of "choose all that apply" questions could probably shed light on the issue. Especially if you aggregate the response categories.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 4:01 AM
horizontal rule
152

That brooks article isn't so damning. there was two studies that had a big swing in how the question was answered. It was not made up.


Posted by: lemmy caution | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 5:37 AM
horizontal rule
153

But the swing happened by 1989 so Brooks' point about how the damn kids today with their cell phones and inflated grades and "everyone gets a trophy" is rather bullshit.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 5:49 AM
horizontal rule
154

152: You're trolling, right?


Posted by: dk | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 5:50 AM
horizontal rule
155

I actually had a similar reaction to 152. I expected worse.


Posted by: x.trapnel | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 6:11 AM
horizontal rule
156

The latter study was about 14-16 year olds in the late 80s, right? So, people in their mid 40s now. But, oh, yes, kids these days and their cellphones and sexchatting.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 6:46 AM
horizontal rule
157

I guess I should read odd-numbered comments, too. What 153 said.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 6:46 AM
horizontal rule
158

So, people in their mid 40s now.

We used to mail each other floppy disks.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 6:48 AM
horizontal rule
159

We used to mail each other floppy disks.

Aren't erect disks sexier?


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 6:57 AM
horizontal rule
160

mydick.jpeg.rar Disk 1 of 11


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:00 AM
horizontal rule
161

Same reaction as 152, here too.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:13 AM
horizontal rule
162

160: Jpeg was later.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:17 AM
horizontal rule
163

It was all about the ASCII portraiture.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:36 AM
horizontal rule
164

With the Apple II monitors, it was only to look alarmingly green regardless.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:38 AM
horizontal rule
165

Right. It should've been .bmp. Not that you could write that in 8.3. But if we're talking Apple II era, I wouldn't even know it would be. First thing I used was an Atari ST.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:46 AM
horizontal rule
166

We used to sext with punch cards.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:54 AM
horizontal rule
167

Then we grew up, and realized that the punch cards never sexted back, because they have no thumbs.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:55 AM
horizontal rule
168

162: RAR was also later.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 7:55 AM
horizontal rule
169

152, 155, 161: I would say that the writer of the Salon article has adopted a very cautious, rigorous, parsimonious style. I have no idea if he's always like that or if it's just to contrast with Brooks.

He isn't saying a word more than he's proved: Brooks made an extraordinary claim, and when challenged got more wrong in the correction. At the very least, that's sloppy and careless of Brooks. Fine, shame on him, but if that's all, who cares, right? It's just one single made-up fact by Brooks, and everyone makes mistakes.

If that's all. But realistically? There's no way that's all. First, because it's not just the fact, it's the interpretation of it. Brooks claims there has been a change in culture between 1948 (or 1954) and a vague today. But it's actually a huge difference whether "today" is 1989, 2003, or something else, and Brooks just elides that. (And even 2003 is 12 years ago by now.) Second, consider whether Brooks' official story here passes the smell test. Getting something vague wrong in a speech - totally understandable. Getting something vague wrong in a book - sloppy but it happens. Making it more specific still and getting it wrong in a written account later? Maybe that's very, very sloppy, but at this point I think it's more likely that the original fact was just ex recto and everything since then is an attempt to hide that. Not certain, but more likely. And third, because this isn't the first time. People have fact-checked Bobos in Paradise and found it just as careless with details dishonest and shitty.

Maybe the author of the Salon article could have been clearer about this, but I think the contrast between his style and Brooks' is huge.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 8:01 AM
horizontal rule
170

What was the one that let you split up a compressed archive into multiple files, to recombine later? Back when everyone was on 56ks or worse and you couldn't depend on your connection to be up long enough to download the entire file. I was trying to think of what it was, and RAR was the closest I could recall, but I don't think that's right.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 8:02 AM
horizontal rule
171

166: readers of the surprisingly and disappointingly shallow "The Victorian Internet" will know that 19th century telegraph operators used to do this when the line was quiet, resulting in several marriages.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 8:03 AM
horizontal rule
172

I think my first modem of 14.4. And I wasn't really an early adopter.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 8:04 AM
horizontal rule
173

Ye olde baudy internete.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
174

14.4 was what we upgraded to- we started with 2400 (which reverted to 300 for some connections.)


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 8:28 AM
horizontal rule
175

173: Heh.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 8:29 AM
horizontal rule
176

I think we had a baud rated modem on the Atari (which I never used; I only played local games that lived on floppies, as it had no hard drive), but then we were on 14.4 what seemed like forever. 28.8 and 56k were unimaginably fast.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 9:04 AM
horizontal rule
177

Oh look, Brooks lied again today.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 9:53 AM
horizontal rule
178

I really like the article, not because motherhood is so awful, although I've certainly felt like Heebie in 48, but because it's nice that someone else has gone through a similar struggle. I'm crippled by social situations and I've had to keep repeating to myself that it's important to make friends with parents for my daughter's sake.


Posted by: LizSpigot | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 3:07 PM
horizontal rule
179

170: RAR did do that, it was just relatively late (1993). It has the other nice feature of generating plaintext files, which made it good for usenet. On BBSs people used the pkzip split-into-chunks funtionality, if I recall.


Posted by: Sifu Tweety | Link to this comment | 06-16-15 3:10 PM
horizontal rule