Re: Women in the military

1

Were you reading the creepy MRA who tags me in his FB posts?!?!?


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 3:37 PM
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I think Linda Kerber starts No Constitutional Right to be Ladies with the example of men being drafted and women not. I don't remember what she says later in the book, which is all about rights and obligations, since I never finished reading it.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 3:40 PM
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NOW filed an amicus brief in an early 80s Supreme Court case about drafting women.


Posted by: oudemia | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 3:42 PM
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The patriarchy hurts men too.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 3:46 PM
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I'm not sure what would be especially unnatural seeming about it, aside from the fact that there hasn't been a draft for so long that it's kind of a foreign concept to people at this point.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 4:08 PM
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Yeah, I'd assume that the draft would be made unisex if it ever looked likely to be in operation again--the logic is pretty inescapable. While it's still in limbo, I wouldn't be surprised if it never gets changed.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 4:16 PM
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Honestly the patriarchy has treated me very well, as has white privilege.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 4:30 PM
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Even if the draft showed up again I'm not sure there's much value to the selective service registration, anyway. Back when records were literally bits of paper in boxes it was probably useful but with computers "compile list of all social security numbers issued between (current date)-18 and (current date)-30" wouldn't be especially hard. Since you don't have to update your address with them when you move something like that would have to happen anyway. Having a whole separate registry which amounts to "men between such-and-such ages" seems almost as old fashioned as the old school British playground game style "if I can catch you then you're in the navy" conscription.


Posted by: MHPH | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 4:33 PM
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I think women should be obliged to register for selective service so long as anyone is. greater awareness of trans people serves to highlight the arbitrary nature of the procedure. should all people who identify as male be required to register?

7: I think you cut a dashing figure, so this must be true.

irrelevantly, I updated the meetup post below with a description of the different, other clothes I am wearing. ***BREAKING*** MUST CREDIT AL.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 5:00 PM
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British playground style? It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 5:00 PM
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relevant to 8 last; one of my favorite steeleye span songs.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 5:02 PM
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Got a letter from the government the other day, opened up read it, it said I was a woman.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 5:48 PM
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The wing nuts were right.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 6:03 PM
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the wingnuts were right

I can remember the anti-ERA propaganda from the early 1980s making three claims in their "parade of horribles", all of which were derided by the liberal establishment as ludicrous scare tactics:
- Homosexuals will be allowed to marry
- Men and women will use the same restrooms
- Women will be subject to the draft

Well, the wingnuts are two for three so far (NTTAWWT), and it looks like the third is not far off. Makes me wonder a little about the more recent "Gay marriage will lead to legalized polygamy" claims.


Posted by: Knecht Ruprecht | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 6:55 PM
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Even if it is legalized, I think my first wife would leave me if I wanted another wife or two.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 6:57 PM
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I think none of us could be surprised if she wanted to supplement you with a second husband less inclined to puns, though.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 7:02 PM
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I'm willing to compromise on a bisexual wife for both of us to share, punning optional.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 7:06 PM
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We already use the same bathroom and are equally likely to be drafted.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 7:07 PM
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Draft my wife... Please!


Posted by: Apo Youngman | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 7:13 PM
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Still no ERA, though.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 7:14 PM
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17: You and 98% of the people on okcupid, it seems.

I used to think my odds of not ever being drafted were good what with being queer, female, messed-up in the spine, and a longtime pacifist, but perhaps someday they'll come for me yet.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 7:16 PM
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I'm surprised they even ask about pun usage.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 7:48 PM
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They probably do, actually, or should. I was figuring that was the number of people who don't explicitly say they're opposed, which I do think I've seen once at least.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 7:51 PM
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I support the ERA and the legalization of having multiple wives, but not multiple husbands. Because I'm a feminist.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 8:02 PM
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To go all Standpipe-y, I had assumed 21.1 was a serious complaint about how heterosexual men fucked up dating for lesbians by making all the listings about them searching for a bisexual woman to revive the tattered remains of their marriages/masculinity. I'd be vaguely cheered but completely surprised to learn I was wrong.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 8:36 PM
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Not a serious complaint, no, but I can't really make you feel better on that front either. And I'm at fault for some of it, for being too quick to dismiss people's online listings. In real life, I'd be willing to listen to a woman about how she just transitioned and is ready to start dating as a lesbian or about how her husband is fine with her dating women and won't be involved and I'd make some sort of case-by-case assessment. But when there are 11 women within 25 miles who are 90+% compatible with me per the magic of okcupid and one of them is in my queer parenting group and doesn't seem like she'd be a good fit on a romantic or parenting philosophy level even though we agree politically and get along well and one is sitting beside me in my bed taking forever to finish her grading and the rest fall into those categories, well, I think I've been pretty fortunate. And I'm not even getting into the ways people describe themselves or the weird messages people send or anything like that, all addressed here at length before by others who've been through the system.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 8:48 PM
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I actually had an argument with an MRA once about this. He was complaining and complaining all over Facebook about how women want equal rights but men can be drafted and the blood of men who die at war is on feminists' hands. I pointed out that feminists had, in the 70s (I think it was the 70s), tried to get a bill passed that would require women to register for the selective service and it had been shot down, mostly by conservatives. His response was that women have no business in the military. I know better now than to expect anything better from his ilk than hollow concern trolling.


Posted by: Trivers | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 8:53 PM
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Speaking of OkCupid, I'm finding it annoying how they keep redesigning the site to make less information immediately available. I guess they're trying to make it more mobile-friendly or something, but still, annoying.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 8:53 PM
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Further to 26, I explicitly screen out the straight couples looking for a third, so I'm not even seeing your hypothetical version, though they can still see me and send messages etc.

Further further to 26, how long do you have to have been dating someone before it's fine to say that if she still really wants to make English muffins tonight she can find her way around your kitchen yourself because you need to get some sleep? I guess I'll find out!


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 8:53 PM
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People make English muffins?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 8:54 PM
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There are no naturally occurring English muffins and no convincing proof of extraterrestrial life, so you can infer that at least some people make English muffins by their very existence.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 8:59 PM
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I should also get some sleep. Unless you can prove that aliens exist. You are from New Mexico, so I won't get that probability to zero.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:00 PM
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I suppose I should have specified "natural people." All the English muffins I've ever encountered have been made by the Thomas Corporation.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:00 PM
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get s/b set.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:00 PM
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32: I'm not currently in New Mexico, though, so yeah, I probably can't prove the existence of aliens right now.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:01 PM
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The Thomas Corporation is people.


Posted by: Opinionated Charlton Heston | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:02 PM
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Yeah, but they're not, like, in your house.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:04 PM
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If you make English muffins at home, they're called crumpets.


Posted by: Cryptic ned | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:04 PM
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39

Or at least they're not in mine. Maybe they're in Thorn's.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:04 PM
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40

Not that I know of, teo. Sorry.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:09 PM
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That's okay. I'm not actually very invested in this.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:13 PM
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42

I don't know where my name went. Aliens?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:15 PM
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35 to 42.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 5-15 9:18 PM
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Crumpets and English muffins are nothing alike. Crumpets are awesome, and I miss them. English muffins are meh. Seriously, America, there's no market for a pre-made pancake/bread hybrid object for soaking up butter?


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 12:59 AM
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26 and 29 imply that you are dating someone right now, though. Congratulations! Do we get to meet her?


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 6:18 AM
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44. What are English muffins, then? Being English, I've obviously never encountered them.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 6:26 AM
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46: They are round kind of chewy bread-like things about the size of a hockey puck. Delicious when slathered with butter.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 6:30 AM
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Oh, and they bear basically no resemblance to what you know as a muffin.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 6:30 AM
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They do sound a lot like crumpets...


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 6:48 AM
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Even in America there is some variation on what counts as an English muffin. Growing up on the east coast, I thought an English muffin simply was product marketed under the name "Thomas's" that attempted to sell something crumpet-like to Americans. But it turns out Thomas's wasn't even in every market. Other places had other brands, and some people even would make their own.

I guess teo's comment means they were in New Mexico as well.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 6:59 AM
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This goes not far at all toward explaining what the teabags mean by "bit of crumpet." Is it a legacy of the rationing era, when whole families had to share precious baked goods?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 7:35 AM
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What are English muffins, then? Being English, I've obviously never encountered them.

Huh.

Wikipedia

"A historic English recipe,[3] they are available in all British supermarkets, where they are known as 'English muffins'."


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 7:57 AM
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I've seen it suggested that crumpet in the sexy sense may have originally been Cockney rhyming slang for "strumpet."


Posted by: Ume | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:02 AM
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Recipe. This makes them look like a cross between a scone and a crumpet. The supermarket version was popular for tea when I was a student because you could often buy them cheaply in the nearly-out-of-date bin, but I've never eaten them since.


Posted by: Ume | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:11 AM
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So what do cockneys call trumpets then? Not so clever now, geezer.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:13 AM
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Better Article?

"The Brits did not invent the English muffin--in fact, they had never heard of it until the 1990s, when Best Foods, a unit of international conglomerate Unilever, bought the S.B. Thomas brand† and began exporting it to the U.K."

I eat a Thomas Muffin every day lately. I'll look for crumpets next time at the store. Totally loathe scones. Might offend the foodies, but she eats Thomas Mini-Bagels.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:13 AM
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52. The things illustrated in the Wikipedia article appear to be traditional muffins, which I am told are different from American "English muffins" and which are never referred to in Britain as "English" anything.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:15 AM
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56. The things illustrated there seem to be rather thin crumpets, a bit like pikelets only made in a mould. In which case F is wrong at 44, unless there's some subtle difference in the recipe. An ordinary crumpet is about 3/4 of an inch thick; pikelets are made from the same batter but without a mould so they spread like pancakes.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:22 AM
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I recently made English Muffin Bread. It was pretty good.


Posted by: E. Messily | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:38 AM
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I had a Sausage McMuffin.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:48 AM
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Is it a symptom of society's persistent sexism that the women in combat thread turned into a cooking thread almost immediately?


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 8:49 AM
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Yes, they're about like crumpets, only a lot dryer and less enjoyable.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 9:08 AM
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62 to 61.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 9:11 AM
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45: Yes, I've mentioned Punchy a few times, probably tying to be casual about it and not jinx anything or overshare. I'm not bringing her onto the blog, if that's what you mean, though she knows about it and strongly approves. (She likes Moby's puns too, but isn't interested in marriage and thus unlikely to be game for his polygamous plans even if Mobyburgh is where she ends up after finishing school here next spring, though it's near the bottom of her list.)

This is completely compartmentalized from my parenting life, which works for her too. It's casual but regular, I guess, where pretty much every weekend I'm free I get to spend some of Saturday with her. It's nice to have someone to talk to and nicer still that it's someone who thinks I'm great. So that's good.

The English muffin dough is rising in a bowl on the kitchen radiator. I'm sure I can take a picture when they're done.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 9:40 AM
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An English muffin (in the US at least) is an ordinary piece of bread, but in a small squat cylindrical shape and cooked on both sides on a griddle. The texture is chewier than most breads.

A crumpet is basically a thick pancake that you don't flip over. The texture is spongy (like a pancake).

The only thing they have in common is the fact that they are bread-like, have the same rough dimensions, and have holes ("nooks and crannies" as the advert says). This is enough to convince Americans who've never seen a crumpet that they are the same.

I can't find crumpets in any store in the US, but they were ubiquitous in Australia.


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 10:38 AM
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" even if Mobyburgh is where she ends up after finishing school here next spring, though it's near the bottom of her list.)"

I at first read this to imply that she's currently attending finishing school.


On the OP, my grandmother was drafted on the outbreak of war in 1939 AIMHMHB - as were hundreds of thousands of other women.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 10:39 AM
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Yes, I've mentioned Punchy a few times, probably tying to be casual about it and not jinx anything or overshare.

I missed this!! What fun. Hawaiian Punchy?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 10:42 AM
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NMM to Jimmy Carter's tumors.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 11:10 AM
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Wait, now I'm totally confused. I had always been told that "English Muffins" don't exist in England. But the article linked in 52, which has a picture of what are clearly english muffins from a UK supermarket, and Chris Y's confirmation in 57 suggests that they totally have English muffins in England, that they are simply called "muffins" there. The only thing not in England (until recently) was Thomas' specific brand of English muffins.

What do English people (who are too weak to forego bread) put at the bottom of eggs benedict? Or does eggs benedict not exist in England at all?


Posted by: R Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 11:14 AM
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Could it be that generations of pedants and faux-cosmopolitans owe the Thomas Company (or its current owners) an apology?


Posted by: R Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 11:34 AM
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She's gone home so I can say that I'm not sure I get the big deal about these English muffins but she was thrilled. (And now that I've said that I can NEVER invite her to the blog!) I'd say they're more like a fluffy frybread and she thought sweet but I'd say mostly salty. We cooked both sides pancake-style in a cast iron pan and then finished on a cookie sheet in the oven because she'd made them over an inch thick. Definitely good at carrying butter and sour cherry jam.

And taste in baked goods aside, okcupid was right that we have a lot in common and enjoy each other's company. She was dubbed Punchy off-blog by a reprobate who was amused our first date was at a hipster punch bar. And I'm not sure how to talk about something that is clearly not headed toward being another major relationship but should be able to continue comfortably at this pace. As other kings and presidents noted lately, it's strange and difficult to be liked and appreciated, but I'm learning to deal with it, as is she.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 11:46 AM
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||

Huh, this will get me in trouble, but just I report you decide stuff. Pat Lang may not be to your liking, but he is not at all Rush Limbaugh/Fox material, and has always respected Obama, blaming the State Department for the failures. And he is connected.

Pat Lang

"The rumor is around town that President Obama is not functioning well. His recent behavior in public supports this rumor." ...PL

Lower in comments:

"A pang of conscience over his Chicago Contributors global game plan he is expected to implement? The man has an out, resign for health reasons."

"Yes. He is caught in the meshes of his political and financial origins and his continuing desire for their money and patronage or at least toleration in retirement. There has been some discussion of the 25th Amendment. pl "

The "Gulfies" and Erdogan in Turkey really really want that fucking gas line through Syria, with political control of the area to protect it. Saudi Arabia will go to war to get Assad out.

I don't know. Just interesting. Watch the speech tonight for me.

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 2:12 PM
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68: I really hope he can reach his goal of outliving Guinea Worm. It's going to be tough because Chad is likely to be a little while because of a problem with dogs getting Guinea Worm there.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 2:17 PM
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||

And sombody at Ian Welsh linked to Jeff Greenfield one of the reasons I hate and mistrust Obama. He has destroyed the Democratic Party, as Welsh, Newberry and I predicted he would do, and I think intended to do.

In fact, no president in modern times has presided over so disastrous a stretch for his party, at almost every level of politics.

Today, there are 46 members of the Senate Democratic caucus, the worst showing since the first year after the Reagan landslide. Across the Capitol, there are 188 Democrats in the House, giving Republicans their best showing since Herbert Hoover took the White House in 1929.

This is, however, the tip of the iceberg. When you look at the states, the collapse of the party's fortunes are worse. Republicans now hold 31 governorships, nine more than they held when Obama was inaugurated.

In 2009, Democrats were in full control of 27 state legislatures; Republicans held full power in 14. Now? The GOP is in full control of 30 state legislatures; Democrats hold full power in just 11. In 24 states, Republicans control the governorship and both houses of the legislature--giving them total control over the political process.

Thanks, Obama!

|>


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 2:27 PM
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Bob, I have Facebook and wingnuts from my hometown if I want to see this stuff. At least link to a video of Obama being disrespected by Putin or something.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 2:31 PM
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Definition of an Obot: somebody who thinks pointing out the numbers in 74 makes me rightwing, or claiming the numbers just can't be right, lalalala, can't hear me?

And note:the baseline is 2009, after the election with the black guy at the top of the ticket. It's not racism.

It's the economy, and I knew O was a horror in 2007.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 2:44 PM
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And taste in baked goods aside, okcupid was right that we have a lot in common and enjoy each other's company. . . . As other kings and presidents noted lately, it's strange and difficult to be liked and appreciated, but I'm learning to deal with it, as is she.

Congratulations, that sounds very pleasant.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 3:33 PM
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60 to 29. Or perhaps to 39.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 3:41 PM
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74: Not bob's point, assuming he has one, but I suppose it says something about progressives' commitment to quixotism that they make a habit of blaming their politicians who win the most important and difficult elections for everyone else's losses.


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 5:14 PM
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79: Well, worst House of Representatives since freaking 1929 includes a lot of Democratic Presidents who have done better. Or a current anomalous nightmare of general Party politicians. I guess out of tens of thousands, Obama is the only good one?

Obama has sucked so bad at party building that it looks intentional. Hating Republicans as much as I do, I consider this the most important part of the job.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 5:34 PM
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McManus vs. Lemieux. Face-off!

I mean this is pretty much Green Lantern Theory stuff, right? I've never been a big fan of the Great Man theory of history, but Americans, especially those predisposed to conspiracy theories, really take it ad absurdum.


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 12- 6-15 7:23 PM
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Phrases that Politico writers just don't understand:

"Sample size"
"Correlation-causation fallacy"

And it is also frankly perverse to blame the Democrats' poor record at winning elections on one of the few Democrats who is consistently good at winning elections. Unless you think that Obama is deliberately sabotaging them of course. But then, if you think that you probably think that Obama will deliberately drive the US economy into recession in 2011 in order to run as a Republican in 2012. Which is what bob announced was going to happen.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 5:09 AM
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Also, the Congressional Democrats weren't exactly the mighty counterweight to GWB that McManus theory implies.

While I'm participating in the trolling, I'll point out that Bob's predictions have been getting revised down almost like Greek GDP forecasts. Time was, his outlook for 2015 included outright fascism, nukushima, black swans, the population of Barcelona actually starving right now due to peak oil, the US West Coast becoming uninhabitable.

Now he's worrying about the state of local Democratic party organisations. I mean, what next, he gets a bike and starts doing the paleo diet?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:22 AM
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Also, ISTR Pat Lang asserting that he didn't like Obama because he could have chosen not to be black but didn't (paraphrase). tbh his signal to noise ratio has gone way down since 2007-ish blogosphere glory days and he's developed a nasty anti-Semitic flavour.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:25 AM
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....the US West Coast becoming uninhabitable.

If you consider $1,000 a huge amount to pay on a house each moth, it has been for years.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:29 AM
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At least in the east bay you get a bulk discount on moths.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:51 AM
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Won't somebody think of the sweaters?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:55 AM
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At some point in the '80s, my mother was able to procure frozen* crumpets from (I'm almost certain) an ordinary supermarket. The texture was a bit odd, but ISTR there was something in the actual flavor I found off-putting. I held my tongue for awhile, but I finally told her I didn't really like them. As she was mostly buying them for my breakfast, that was that.

*Maybe refrigerated?


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 9:01 AM
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You guys are putting honey on your crumpets, right?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 9:32 AM
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Because of imports from China, who knows?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 9:34 AM
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||

Crooked timber will be posting their book seminar on Piketty's Capital later today. I feel like I should* go back and re-read the unfogged book club to see what questions we had.

* but probably won't

|>


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:14 AM
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Sure, they may have a Nobel Laureate but we had better cock jokes.


Posted by: Eggplant | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:34 AM
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Holy crap. I had no idea he was still active.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:35 AM
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If Obama were a better president, women would be eligible for the draft and ""English"" (double scare quotes!) muffins would be delicious.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:50 AM
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I thought we learned in this thread that the notion that English muffins aren't English is bullshit. They didn't have Thomas' but "English-style muffins" was a perfectly legit use by the Thomas Company.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:53 AM
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And if Kenneth Arrow thinks otheriwse he can kiss my ass.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:54 AM
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An English muffin (in the US at least) is an ordinary piece of bread

Total lies.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:55 AM
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I don't know what an English muffin is, but I'm sure a "scone" is just a biscuit cut to a different shape and sweetened.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:57 AM
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98.2. is correct, but if an "English muffin" corresponds to anything English, it's a crumpet. A muffin in England is totally different from either, nor is it like the cupcakes without icing that are called muffins in the US. Google suggests there may be something in America called a "bread muffin", which seems to be more or less what I'd understand as a muffin.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:09 AM
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What is a muffin in England? All of the descriptions I've ever seen are negative -- not a cupcake, not a crumpet, and so on.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:13 AM
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Look, this and this are both totally "English muffins" and are both also clearly the thing known in England as "muffins," and are also basically the same (aside from not being Thomas-branded) as this.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:14 AM
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Second link should have been to this. These "muffins" sold in England are clearly what Americans would call English muffins.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:16 AM
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However, crumpets are also delicious.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:19 AM
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101, 102: Those are scones.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:19 AM
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So English muffins are muffins that are English?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:22 AM
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I was finally able to post a not-very-good picture of one of our English muffins and a slightly clearer closeup of the texture.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:22 AM
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Ohoho, what are these mysterious only-in-America items? It says they are "plain and simple, made with pure British flour."


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:23 AM
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So English muffins are muffins that are English?

No, English muffins are a protest pastry, developed by the Tea Party in response to the proliferation of Spanish-speaking muffins.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:24 AM
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I think the difference, if there is one, is that Thomas' have more "nooks and crannies" than the usual English-style English-muffin, though there are lots of American "English muffins" that also are not strong in the nooks-and-crannies department. Still, I'm standing on top of "English muffins are English" hill now and will defend it with my life and honor.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:41 AM
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Tigre is right. Muffins -- of the kind branded in the US as English Muffins -- are widely available here. Not the same as crumpets.

Scones are different again. Which come in two varieties: Scotch pancake aka drop scone -- which is much like the US silver dollar pancake -- or the default scone:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01989/scones_intro1_1989462b.jpg


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:43 AM
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And apparently, says Google, the formula for Thomas' creation of "nooks and crannies" within its English-style muffin is a closely-held trade secret which Thomas' has sued to protect.

So, more precisely, we can say the following: in America our most prominent brand of English-style muffin has an IP-protected trade-secret formula for creating "nooks and crannies" in the muffin that is not found in the English-style muffins historically sold in England. However this does not prevent what in America is known as an "English muffin" from being, in fact, an English-style muffin recognizably akin to muffins sold in England. It is thus justifiably known, accurately, as an "English muffin."


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:47 AM
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So moved.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:49 AM
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I'm also a bit verklempt by baked goods.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:50 AM
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The OED could have cleared this up ages ago!

Originally (now Brit. regional): any of various kinds of bread or cake. Now: spec. (in N. Amer. generally known as English muffin) a small, flat, cake made from yeast batter and cooked on a hotplate, usually eaten split, toasted, and spread with butter, jam, etc., esp. for breakfast or tea.

Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 1:09 PM
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110: The default scone is very similar to what Canadians call 'tea biscuits' and what Americans call 'biscuits.' I'm pretty sure the UK scone is sweeter.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 1:48 PM
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What is a muffin in England? All of the descriptions I've ever seen are negative -- not a cupcake, not a crumpet, and so on.

Basically a large cupcake without icing.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:08 PM
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Topically, and bizarrely, some vendor just dropped of a box of Tesco-brand "mince pies" in my office along with a note saying "greetings from London." I assume the vendor got a hot deal on these from someone who robbed a truck, because there is no other explanation for them. Do these things have eel in them.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:09 PM
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116 -- no, that's an American muffin.


Posted by: RT | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:10 PM
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Update: the box claims they have meat, silent on eel.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:13 PM
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Meat and fruit, that is. Why would you mix up good meat with some fruit and put it in a pie?


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:15 PM
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What we in America call "English eel" is known in England as "Hugh Grant."


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:15 PM
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This thread is an example of the unintended consequences of feminism.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:16 PM
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re: 120

They don't usually contain any meat. It's just fruit, and spices, although it might contain a little suet. Very old recipes use meat, but store bought ones never, as far as i know, will. Tesco, certainly not.

Classic (modern) mincemeat is like this:

http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/13377/traditional-mincemeat

It's good.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:18 PM
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Too late. I bit into one in the expectation/hope that "mincemeat" actually meant minced meat. Clearly it did not. Most like a Hostess fruit pie, with some more chunks of stuff swimming in the interior gel.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:26 PM
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Good ones are spicy, sweet but in a dark way, and alcohol laden, and not really the sort of sweet thing that kids would like. Tesco, not so much.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:29 PM
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Meat and fruit, that is. Why would you mix up good meat with some fruit and put it in a pie?

We've been over this.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:29 PM
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Duguid & Alford's mincemeat recipe is excellent, likely on the web somewhere, printed in Home Baking. We make a second batch with clarified butter and it is still good, but not as good as the suet batch.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:31 PM
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Oh this seems like a good thread to ask: I recently became the recipient of a large quantity of lard and Nutella, and a small amount of duck fat.

I know what to do with the lard and duck fat, I'm only mentioning those here to gloat. But what do I do with all the Nutella? I don't actually like Nutella that much. I see a recipe online for three-ingredient brownies made of Nutella, flour and an egg. Would that be great, or gross?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:41 PM
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I obviously didn't know until today that "mincemeat" is not primarily meat. What the hell. The expression "make mincemeat of," doesn't this mean to hack someone's flesh into very small pieces?


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:41 PM
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And also, an economy-sized tub of Skippy peanut butter. I suppose I'll take care of that by sitting myself down in a chair one of these days with the jar and a spoon. It's creamy, which is too bad.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:42 PM
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The expression "make mincemeat of," doesn't this mean to hack someone's flesh into very small pieces?


It doesn't? Shit, I've been doing it wrong.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:43 PM
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I always thought the "meat" in mincemeat referred to nutmeats, but I see now from wikipedia that that's not true.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:44 PM
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129: read the link in 126. It is primarily meat.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:50 PM
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Would that be great, or gross?

You probably wouldn't like it very much if you don't like nutella.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:51 PM
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I just got a little thing of the Berkeley Bowl housemade hazelnut-chocolate stuff and it's great.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:51 PM
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133: The meat thinks?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 2:52 PM
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Someone at work was talking about a duck & apple pie that their daughter had in France and has now learned to cook. Is that a real thing?


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:03 PM
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You're asking me to believe in sentient meat.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:03 PM
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109/110: I would have thought Tigre of all people would be the least concerned about the distinctions amongst, and least knowledgeable of the availability of, the various kinds of baked goods.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:08 PM
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I've never tried the Turkish chicken breast dessert but have long been tempted. Punchy said she's game, so perhaps that will be part of our next cooking adventure. Maybe not, though.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:10 PM
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re: 137

Duck is one of the most-commonly-served-with-fruit meats, no? Orange, plum, etc.

Quick google, and the fancier British supermarket chain has a recipe for duck and apple pie:

http://www.waitrose.com/content/waitrose/en/home/recipes/recipe_directory/d/duck__chestnut_and_apple_pie.A5.html

[page seems to take a few seconds to load, so wait for it]


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:11 PM
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***MAJOR INCIDENT ALERT. THE LEAST FOGGED THING EVER***

TAKE THE TEST. THE TEST THAT SAYS WHAT CLASS YOU ARE. TAKE IT NOW. POST RESULTS.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

***THAT IS ALL. SPEAKING AS AN ESTABLISHED MIDDLE CLASS PERSON***


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:26 PM
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Thorn's lady caller is named "Punchy"? What's the origin story there?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:27 PM
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And therefore, of course, probably your social superior...


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:27 PM
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Duck-and-apple-pie seems no weirder than duck with berries, or lamb with quince, or pork with apples, or anything like that, except that it's in pie form, which, why not?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:27 PM
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71 to 143.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:28 PM
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Is going to stately homes a well defined activity in its own right in the UK?


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:29 PM
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Result: the class group you most closely match is:

Elite

Suck it, Harrowell.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:30 PM
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146: thank you, commoner, for your speedy assistance.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:31 PM
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143: it's not actually her name, but she's gotten fond of it.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:33 PM
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TWYRIOCP


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:36 PM
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I didn't think it was her real-life name, Thornypoo.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:39 PM
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Per the advice of the British Broadcasting Corporation, I am ceasing all other activities and will spend my life Going to Stately Homes. I shall begin with Wayne manor.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:45 PM
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I guess I was thinking of the pie as a dessert. It makes more sense as a meat pie.


Posted by: Bave | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:47 PM
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I got "elite." Then to test it out I cut my income by 2/3 and changed from home ownership to renting, and kept everything else the same, and got "emergent service sector."


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:52 PM
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Which suggests that Nosflow is rich.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:53 PM
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I was most elite in the cultural section, actually. I'm quite certain that you make more than me, and I rent.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:55 PM
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From now on, I want to be referred to as Sir Tigre. If I'm elite in the UK I'm at least a fucking baronet. You don't have to go all the way to Lord Tigre.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:56 PM
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And when I moved my income to the next category down, I too got "emergent service workers".


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:57 PM
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An annual income of 50,001 pounds is what makes the difference between being elite and being one step above the precariat, apparently.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 3:58 PM
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I didn't want to be preemptive with 158. If anyone wants to refer to me as Lord Tigre, they can.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:00 PM
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I took this test when it came out and got "technical middle class"; since then my wife and I bought a house and now I'm "elite."


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:01 PM
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Parvenu! I strike you with my walking stick. Now time to go get a Boris Johnson haircut.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:03 PM
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"Meat" once meant "food" generally, as has survived in "sweetmeat", but "mincemeat" is more recent and does in fact mean ground meat outside the pie context.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:14 PM
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AS I HAVE ALREADY ESTABLISHED IN 126 SUPRA


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:17 PM
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It says I'm "Elite," even though I didn't choose "Visit stately homes" as a pastime. I call shenanigans.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:18 PM
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Elite.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:25 PM
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I would have guessed that visiting stately homes would be marked as middle class. Debo wasn't marketing the Chatsworth experience to her fellow aristocrats.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:29 PM
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What-ho, Witt.


Posted by: Roberto Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:31 PM
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I've never even been to my city's most stately home.

Perhaps they mean, "Leave visiting cards at stately homes."


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:34 PM
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I would have guessed that visiting stately homes would be marked as middle class.

Well, maybe it is. As far as I know none of us elites pass our time visiting stately homes.


Posted by: nosflow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:42 PM
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Tigre a member of the Drones Club. That works.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:44 PM
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Perhaps they mean, "Leave visiting cards at stately homes."

Yes, as Bertie does.


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:45 PM
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Elite.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:50 PM
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I've never tried the Turkish chicken breast dessert but have long been tempted. Punchy said she's game, so perhaps that will be part of our next cooking adventure.

Don't cook Punchy!


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:55 PM
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147: I think "visiting stately homes" would probably get you marked down more than anything else on that test.

155, 160: that's about right, really. if you're a homeowner politicians suck up to you constantly (although you pay through the nose), if not you're basically cattle.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:56 PM
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161: the great thing about being a member of the established middle class is that I have every right to hold the aristocracy in contempt. Either in the Tony Benn sense - if you gave me a peerage I'd turn it down - or in the George Bridges MP sense - I don't need one because I'm too privileged already.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 4:58 PM
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ll

if sites hosted by a specific server have suddenly become un-loadable by all devices on my home wifi network, but I can reach those sites either by plugging into ethernet or through using a VPN (TunnelBear), is this enough info to determine who's blocking me?


ll>


Posted by: (damnit Jim! I'm a) lurker | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 5:12 PM
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I got "established middle class," which sounds about right.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 5:17 PM
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I am also Established Middle Class -- Remember Peterloo!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 5:29 PM
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180: why yes, our triumph is founded on Manchester liberalism.

178: your problem sounds like it's in the home network. if it was upstream of your stuff, whether you connected via WLAN or just the wired LAN ports on the router wouldn't matter, but the VPN might fix it. my really quick guess is some sort of NAT issue.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 5:33 PM
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181--thanks! to clarify/add detail, problem solved when plugging Macbook directly into Motorola SB and bypassing Airport Express network, or by VPN. Plain old Anonymouse proxy also solved it, but I don't understand if proxy/VPN difference is meaningful....


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 5:40 PM
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I got elite also. I think the key is not knowing many people or doing anything.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:22 PM
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Is going to stately homes a well defined activity in its own right in the UK?

Totally. I'd say a good two-thirds of my domestic holidays as a child involved visiting stately homes. And my mum currently volunteers as a tour guide at one.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:33 PM
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Is "stately home" a well-defined term? What do you need to do to reach stately level?


Posted by: R Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:34 PM
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I like how the lowest home value listed is like twice the median house cost here.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:35 PM
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Anyhow, apparently in Britain owning a home makes you "elite" but visiting a stately home makes you middle class. Mincemeat is not meat. English muffins are ubiquitous yet no one dares speak of them. A land of mysteries.


Posted by: R Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:41 PM
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I thought we established that mincemeat was meat, just not only meat.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:43 PM
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It was once meat, but no longer is, unless you count suet as meat, unless it's vegetarian.


Posted by: Sir Tigre | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:45 PM
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I can't be knighted because I'm Catholic. I may as well visit stately homes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:47 PM
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That is, I can't be British Knighted.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:48 PM
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I can be "of Columbus" knighted.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:48 PM
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Best class-spotting moment of my cohabitation with an English person for the past 15 plus years was when I said the only thing about Brenda that I could endorse is the practice of having someone break in your shoes for you. Imagine - custom made shoes AND a dedicated shoe breaker in! Now that's luxury worth striving for.

English cohabitant got all sniffy and said it was disgusting to wear shoes someone else had worn.

How middle class of you, I replied.

Pause.

Touché, said the man.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:49 PM
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185: A peerage basically. But, in practice, if it's the sort of place that could have a ha ha, it's a stately home


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:52 PM
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A middle class person is someone who has seen my bare feet, apparently.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:56 PM
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Technical middle class, but I've never really thought of going to the gym as enjoying emerging culture.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 6:57 PM
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I guess that depends on if they have actual disinfectant in those spray bottles or not.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 7:14 PM
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Did the ultra-SWPL U-Pet cat carrier packs ever get noted here?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 7:35 PM
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I got emergent service worker, which sounds about right based on the description.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 7:35 PM
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Is that like the butler in a British Sex Farce who's always popping out from behind doors or curtains or something?


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 7:39 PM
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I thought those were documentaries.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:04 PM
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I can't be British Knighted.

Nonsense. They'll sell 'em to anyone, and there's even a "stockist" right in Mobytown.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:12 PM
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Pittsburgh has a stored called "Social Status"? I guess this is a big sneaker town. The other day, I was out for coffee while my wife appreciated art. I saw a bunch of kids hanging outside a sneaker store. I think they were waiting to get some new model like slightly less pointless Star Wars fans.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:24 PM
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198: Not to my memory. They look if anything more claustrophobic and alarming than the typical carrier, but they're undeniably cute.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:25 PM
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Not that I don't appreciate art. I'm just much better at it than her. It can take her over an hour to appreciate something that I can appreciate in maybe five minutes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:26 PM
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Maybe two minutes, but only by using banned substances (or at least ones banned in most museums).


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 8:53 PM
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Wow my Twitter and Facebook feeds are full of fear tonight. Not fear of Muslims, but fear of of hatred. Ugly, ugly incidents happening in neighborhoods I know. People I consider friends and colleagues walking around afraid. And with reason: they and their families are being demonized by politicians and journalists who don't know or don't care about the impact of their words.

Political rhetoric has personal consequences. I wish to heaven I could make the damned TV pundits understand that, even if the candidates won't.


Posted by: I can't | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 9:06 PM
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As an aside, I took 138 as a response to 137 and have been laughing and laughing at it, perhaps because I'm overtired or intoxicated.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 9:47 PM
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That is pretty great. I didn't notice before you mentioned it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 9:50 PM
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What I remember from my year as a kid in England was that all the stately houses of all the peerage had become tourist attractions, and that you could get in to gawk at them for a very nominal fee. As a clueless American family we did a fair amount of it, certainly enough to get the joke in Norman Hunter's Incrediblania books (all of which I read that year) where the King of Incrediblania gets an offer to "live like a lord," and thinks, why would I want to do that when I already live like a king and don't have to let people tour my house for fifty pence apiece.


Posted by: lourdes kayak | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 9:50 PM
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||

Yale protesters got their scalp, though ironically exactly the opposite of what many here were calling for (she resigned her teaching position, but remains associate master).

>


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 10:24 PM
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It just goes to show: you can't rely on voluntary compliance. You have to appeal to authority to get what you want.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:22 PM
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My mother used to make mincemeat pies (and sometimes tarts) for Christmas. I thought they tasted good, if a little bit rich (but always they tasted 'festive,' which was the point). The only 'meat' came from the suet base, I think.

Then again, I also like fruitcake (aka Christmas cake), so my tastes may be a little bit weird, and therefore suspect.

An elderly cousin of my father once gave me a recipe for a Christmas cake (fruitcake) that called for copious amounts of brandy and holy water, in equal measure. Also almonds and spices and mixed peel, of course.

I love British, and British-inspired, food. A jacket potato with baked beans and cheddar? I am so there.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 12- 7-15 11:54 PM
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plugging Macbook directly into Motorola SB

does this mean you're tethering it to a cellular phone/device of some sort?


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 8-15 3:16 AM
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185: this is kind of interesting. Just after the second world war there were a lot of nobs who couldn't afford to maintain their huge Vanburgh-designed palaces any more, what with taxes, full employment hiring their staff away (to freedom!), by then almost eighty years of rock-bottom farm prices*, and the fact anyone who had investments in the dollar zone had been nationalised in 1941 and given government bonds instead.

So some of them came up with the idea of letting the public have a look around and basically turning the place into a museum of themselves. The Revenue was persuaded that they could then deduct the cost of upkeep from their taxes on the grounds they were looking after a national monument. Some of them take this more seriously than others - there is a semiregular scandal when someone realises that dozens of them get the tax break because they open once in a blue moon and you can visit by applying at the sign saying "beware of the leopard".

In a sense, "stately home" is therefore operationally-defined by tax considerations.

*important asterisk: under first the Attlee government's Agriculture Act and then the EU CAP, this changed pretty dramatically and farmers got rich again from the 40s to the 90s.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12- 8-15 3:27 AM
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Cheap agricultural production, taxation of landed interests, industrial employment - all the classic policies of the Liberal Party were clearly aimed at establishing the National Trust, weren't they?


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 12- 8-15 4:23 AM
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There are also a whole bunch that are owned or supported by the National Trust. These tend to be ones where the resident aristocrat pissed away their wealth in the 18th or 19th century and their descendants had to sell the family pile.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 12- 8-15 4:28 AM
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Alex is more or less right, as far as the one that are still in private hands go, and GY is sort of right about the National Trust, although most of the ones they own became unmanageable between the wars, when a vast number were also pulled down. It's worth remembering that in many cases today's stately home was 1800's MacMansion and 1930's financial embarrassment: I give you the Master.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 12- 8-15 5:09 AM
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We were so poor, we had to share a hemorrhoid with the whole family.


Posted by: Opinionated Aristocrat in Poverty | Link to this comment | 12- 8-15 6:12 AM
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|| Apologies for the interruption in supply of Nixoniad. Normal service has now been resumed. |>


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12- 8-15 6:29 AM
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Pittsburgh has a stored called "Social Status"? I guess this is a big sneaker town. The other day, I was out for coffee while my wife appreciated art. I saw a bunch of kids hanging outside a sneaker store. I think they were waiting to get some new model like slightly less pointless Star Wars fans.

Indeed, one Saturday morning, as I walked the dog to the artisanal olive oil store*, I passed Social Status, and there were people lined up at 11 am or so. I'm 95% certain that, the night before, I had seen a couple people camped out on folding chairs.

Also, I'm really glad that someone made a BK joke.

*although I was actually going to pick up baked goods from a fantastic bakery (that I worked on) that is not walking distance away


Posted by: JRoth | Link to this comment | 12- 8-15 7:11 AM
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