Somebody needs jail time over this. Preferably the guilty parties.
2: Protests calling for the governor to resign. A friend who works at the MI EPA told me a couple weeks ago that when he walked out of work on a Friday, he passed a huge stack of boxes labelled "Flint Water." I said he should have taken a picture, but he said they were being guarded by security. I haven't read all the details, but this looks like it might get worse than it already is.
In terms of damage done, it can't get any worse, can it? I thought they were reconnected to Detroit now.
4: Yes, but how much damage was done is still being determined.
In terms of damage done, it can't get any worse, can it? I thought they were reconnected to Detroit now.
I've wondered about this - the problem is that the pipes were leaching lead, and they're still presumably using the same pipes, right? If the sealant or something has been breached, it seems like they need new pipes.
They're using the same pipes, but the water isn't as acidic so it doesn't leach much lead. That's right, all they had to do was add some alkaline substance to the water. Didn't care.
Am I correct in assuming the lead is in the solder, not the pipes?
Also, it's not clear how long testing indicated a problem before action was taken, AFAICT. Poisoning kids inadvertently to save money is bad. Knowing you are poisoning kids and ignoring it is evil.
9: Yes, or at least it appears so.
When we visited Flint, we took pieces of copper pipe joined with lead solder (old solder is 50% lead by weight) inside them. Lead solder is probably present in the plumbing of many Detroit/Flint homes built before 1986 when it was banned from use in drinking water systems. We put the lead solder-copper pipe test pieces in 250 mL containers, and filled them with the following three waters:
Other pages on that site mention iron pipes being corroded, but there's no direct reference to lead pipes, so yes, it's probably only in the solder.
1986! Lead solder in drinking water pipes was banned in 198-goddamnit-6?!? What is wrong with people?
If you don't have highly acidic water, it's as safe as properly encapsulated asbestos.
1986!
Why hasn't somebody written a sequel where Winston and Julia get back together and destroy Big Brother? It an abomination, but I'd probably see it.
I don't think I've had as much pure, real, non-Twitter-activist outrage about a story in a long time. I hope that it's outrageous enough to convince even conservative suburban and rural Michiganders that something is seriously wrong. Poisoning kids to "save"* money is bad.
*not really the right word, because it was unnecessary state-enforced punitive austerity.
14: There is, of course, "1985", a chilling dystopia in which England is under the tyrannical rule of the Big Brother Corporation, or, as you knew it, the BBC.
And I vaguely remember that Brian Aldiss talked about writing a book called "Nineteen Eighty-Nine" about the fall of Ingsoc, but couldn't work out how it would collapse. (I think it was Aldiss. May have been someone else.)
I hope that it's outrageous enough to convince even conservative suburban and rural Michiganders that something is seriously wrong.
Sadly, I have confidence in the ability of conservatives to draw the wrong conclusions under any circumstances. They'll probably blame unions somehow.
And this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394724828/thirdway0c
1985 : a Historical Report from the Hungarian - Gyorgy Dalos
Which I'd never heard of before. Written in 1982!
According to something I saw on Facebook, they're blaming the EPA.
17, 19: Those sound like downers still.
19. I've read that! Sort of an alt-version of Gorbachev or post-Mao China, written before the fact.
Don't forget Alan Moore's take on 1984; it was the superstructure of one of his League of Extraordinary Gentlemen graphic novels, but happens after Big Brother's dictatorship has collapsed, with some flashbacks.
talked about writing a book called "Nineteen Eighty-Nine" about the fall of Ingsoc, but couldn't work out how it would collapse
Obviously it would be overthrown by a band of attractive adolescents led by a young woman with extra-special abilities, such as archery skills, or being "divergent," or something. That is how all dystopias meet their ends, is it not?
Did they really do it to save money or were they just ignorant? Weren't the savings like $100/day if that?
I have no idea, but my assumption was that they contracted it out under the guise of saving money, so someone was motivated by the drive to privatize beyond just strict savings.
23.2 triggers one of my pet peeves. Half of all science fiction and almost every fantasy novel or movie for like 40 years is about some guy who's special in some way who saves the day, and no one remarked on it. All of sudden they're making the same thing for girls, and it's a shocking development. (You're probably not doing that -- that's what makes it a peeve.)
The wikipedia page seems informative. It looks like saving money and spiting Detroit were the motivations.
Well someone needs to resign and several someone's need to be indicted. These kids lives are fucking ruined. Holy shit.
Some people have already resigned.
talked about writing a book called "Nineteen Eighty-Nine" about the fall of Ingsoc, but couldn't work out how it would collapse
Taylor Swift would defeat it, obviously.
Edit: pwned by 23 on preview.
26: I have no problem with the fact that novelists and movie studios have figured out that they can make just as much money (or more) by having a girl be the hero. Girls rock.
What does bother me is that fictional dystopias no longer function as thoughtful social critique, but only as dramatic foils for plucky adolescents.
Actually, come to think of it, the social critique dystopia genre still exists, but only so far as it features a Democratic president coming to take all your guns and send you off to a FEMA-run detention camp.
So, if I have to choose . . . go plucky adolescents!
How about the fact that the "emergency manager" in charge of this fiasco is now running Detroit's schools (further into the ground)?
Here's an argument that the problem was caused by a variety of people making bad decisions at both the local and state level. I have no idea if it's correct (and 3 could be an argument that it isn't), but I pass it along.
The Recap:
1) Flint's elected leadership makes what is actually a solid, sound decision that will, in the long run, save the city millions of dollars and give it more control over its destiny - and, because it positions Flint as a wholesale supplier of water, possibly enhance revenues for them.
2)Detroit Water Board decides to be spoiled, pissy assholes and leaves Flint with no good options for the two years before its pipeline is built.
3) Flint's elected leadership and GOP-appointed EFM make a careful, well-deliberated decision to draw water from the Flint River.
4) Flint's water staff - the people in Flint who are the experts on this sort of thing - apparently aren't up to the task. And the people they count on to oversee and help them ...
5) The Michigan DEQ, is completely asleep at the switch. And once they discover their mistake, they lie about it and ask Flint to help them lie.
33: As I think I mentioned here before, the DEQ was set up by John Engler, splitting the environmental regulatory apparatus out from the Department of Natural Resources (I've seen people say that this was semi-explicitly because the DNR was perceived as hostile to the business community). Jennifer Granholm re-unified them under the auspices of the DNR, and Snyder split them back up. If the DEQ was asleep at the switch, that hardly exculpates Snyder.
Re 33, also relevant, from last March:
"FLINT, MI -- The City Council's latest push to stop using the Flint River for drinking water appears dead on arrival with emergency manager Jerry Ambrose.
Ambrose issued a statement Tuesday, March 24, calling the council's vote to "do all things necessary" to return to purchasing water from the Detroit Water and Sewerage Department "incomprehensible.""
So, is "Emergency Manager" what Michigan cities have instead of democracy? How exactly does that work?
Like, I wonder if the Emergency Manager knew he was going to have to answer to voters in an election, if that would have made a difference in his decision making process.
36: Yes. When cities are bankrupt, the governor appoints someone to oversee the city. They still have mayors and city councils, but the emergency manager has broad powers to override prior agreements and form his own. Like a dictator, AFAICT. Little oversight, little transparency. Luckily, the one appointed to Detroit hasn't been too awful. Oh, and I'm not sure how the appointments end. When the governor thinks it's OK?
We have a board here, not a single person.
39: In the case of Detroit, the emergency manager resigned once Detroit emerged from bankruptcy.
40: Something like that in Flint now.
The Receivership Transition Advisory Board has the authority to override council decisions in financial matters
I think a big push liber need to make on our Presidential candidates is a promise to appoint an attorney general who will aggressively prosecute people over this kind of thing.
This is *literally* the most contaminated drinking water in America.
Listening to small town rich people talk about people, their a good person, just means "their rich". Seriously it's like watching dogs sniffing assholes.
They're good people, they have a summer house on the Osarks, to bad she married a nigger.
That girl that works for you at enterprise is a nigger (she is a middle class black woman with a degree from a top tier state university)
now there are talking about how many vehicles they've wrecked while driving drunk, spoilers it's more than one for a all three of them, this is the best.
I don't know what Asteele is drunkenly liveblogging, but it's great.
I assume it's some sort of social event involving rich Americans.
Ugg I'm home, their is a whole "thing" I could talk about. Spoilers: They are good customers at my dad's bank, but i don't want them on my boat because his wife is a wet-back.
ajay is correct that was drunk live blogging, small town illinois everyone
37. Once again the Athenians showed the way. Mandatory investigation for malfeasance immediately on laying down office, and if malfeasance is found, either capital punishment or banishment. This would concentrate the minds of Emergency Managers everywhere.
Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un Emergency Manager pour encourager les autres.
Asteele's dad has a small-town bank? Wow. It must be so tempting to go full Jimmy Stewart. That and ring up dsquared and tell him you're having a credit committee meeting on Monday.
On the original post, I can't believe anyone hasn't pointed out that this is a priceless opportunity to test the lead/crime hypothesis. If it works, Flint will be really quite scary. Sadly, it takes about 15 years to work through, so the additional crime probably won't take the form of everyone responsible being roasted to death in the public square.
Future Vox editor: "Does it still count as a crime if Robot President Sanders pardoned all the perpetrators in the name of the revolution?"
58: I assume 54.2 is quoting someone else, given the second half.
It must be so tempting to go full Jimmy Stewart. That and ring up dsquared and tell him you're having a credit committee meeting on Monday.
Comparing dsquared to Mr Potter is a bit rough.
Quote. My dad was a small town city employee.
For the absence of any doubt, my dsquared reference is to the remark at this link:
https://twitter.com/dsquareddigest/status/689883271245733888/photo/1
From what I'm reading, it sounds like this scandal came to light in large part due to a Flint mom who raised a fuss, and made important connections with outside experts. This anecdote about a Virginia Tech lead expert made me happy:
"On that warm, Tuesday afternoon in August, when Walters called Edwards to tell him how awful that meeting with the state went, Edwards remembers hanging up the phone and physically shaking with anger.
"I mean this is an imminent and substantial endangerment to children, and for me sitting 15 hours away, I can't believe how people could just sit there and let other children drink that water," says Edwards.
"I mean, how could you do that?"
Edwards couldn't sleep. He decided he had to drop everything.
He got four grad students together, and a bunch of lead test kits. Two days later, they loaded up in Edwards' 13-year-old white "soccer mom" mini-van and drove 15 hours straight - directly to Flint."
Academics to the rescue!
Mr. Squared is extremely tired of people impugning Mr. Potter's character, and if people would take five minutes to address their own ignorance rather than scapegoat vulnerable bankers, they'd realize what a service Mr. Potter did and could have done for the town of Bedford Falls. You're all banned.
I seem to recall a dsquared post that argued uncle Billy and possibly George Bailey should be looking at hard time but my google is failing me.
18: RE: ability of conservatives to draw the wrong conclusions: A word that is curiously scarce in coverage of this disaster: Democrat.
Did DC have a similar issue in 2004? They had a choice between 2 bad things depending on how they treated the water.
The link in 67 was striking to me for its utter lack of cogent analysis. "Flint had Democratic mayors! Like Chicago has Rahm Emanuel! Hillary Clinton! BLARRRGGG!!!"
Before even clicking the link I knew what site it came from #ethnographicexpert
In China if you're a government official or CEO and you kill or maim people through corruption and/or negligence you're looking at lengthy prison time (standard mine explosion) or even capital punishment if it's thought to be particularly heinous (like the people who put melamine in baby formula).
5 is apparently wrong. The lead levels in the Flint water are likely still high, and probably will be for a while due to the corrosion caused by the highly acidic water from the Flint River. Hence, the ongoing shipments of bottled water --http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/01/why-flints-water-still-unsafe-or-it
GM's Flint Engine plant refused to accept the water because it corroded the engines: