I'm mostly just relieved that this appears to have been resolved with only one occupier killed and one injured. It could have been so much worse.
1: It could still go to hell. We'll see. Lots of big talkers rethink things in a hurry after someone gets shot to shit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RoeNxjaShk
Yeah, that's why I said "appears." The fact that Ritzheimer turned himself in is a promising sign, I think, but we'll see.
"B-but Daddy, you swore an oath!"
The conference hall next to us is the national cattlemen's meeting, lots of cowboy hats. I'm half expecting them to come occupy our conference tomorrow.
I expect this will confirm the paranoid delusions of a particular sort of people and there's probably a rash of crazy incidents in lots of places coming in short order.
1:
Yeah, it's rough upending a thread with that many comments, but apo got it done.
2:
Yeah. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that it's going to help matters from a political standpoint that law enforcement avoided another Waco. These far right anti-government types are already untethered from reality so I'm not sure that a lower body count is going to help bring them back.
7: It's too bad about Tigre but omelettes, eggs, y'know.
YOU CANT SPELL KAPO WITHOUT APO
This comment was evicted by bureaucrat teo from the old thread:
These guys' ideology seems like a logical progression from the people who say things like "back when I was on food stamps, no government program ever helped me get back on my feet."
11- brilliant, I feel like I just read that somewhere else.
This should be what Bundy and his followers want: a chance to make the federal courts accept the true meaning of the Constitution. Or, if they don't, it will be obvious to all the People, who will then rise up against the "federal" "courts."
Back when we were on the other thread we didn't need a front page post.
The whole time I've been a commenter, front page posters never gave me anywhere to write down whatever thoughts I had on whatever.
I guess I should watch The Shining at some point.
Maybe the body count goes up before morning.
https://twitter.com/LaurenKTVZ/status/692244391029805056
Rednecks fighting law enforcement seemed much cooler in the movie Convoy.
Supposedly there's some arguing going on over whether they're actually going to get reinforcements from militias. This was posted just a few minutes ago, you can hear a bit of it going in the background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mveVne8k6DE
This is where their choice of location for the occupation really bites them in the ass. Middle of nowhere with one road in means not only is help a long ways out but LE can park a couple Bearcats or similar across the road and any "reinforcements" that try to force their way through will be having to engage professionals shooting back from behind armor. Good luck with that.
From the word of vehicle deployment and such maybe an assault but more likely is that it's full blown siege time. They're blocking the shit out of the roads and I'm guessing cutting water and power is in progress. Lot's of overnight lows in the teens in the forecast. Doubt the wingers can hold out long in those conditions.
They just started live streaming! One of them claimed we were going to get to watch him die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_cM8kmzxK0
Long overdue. I viscerally want these people shot, but hopefully still just a slow cold siege.
Send more dildos!
Send more dildos!
23: no, you really, really just want a siege followed by arrest and trial, after which they are, and this is absolutely key, not shot. That bit, the not-shooting bit, is what makes the difference between "bunch of treasonous wankers occupying our post office" and "a terrible beauty is born".
26 - Exactly. My viscera are warring with my brain.
26 - Exactly. My viscera are warring with my brain.
Could probably use more lube too.
I know that 50 gallon drum should have been enough but that's like only 5 ten gallon hats worth and we're more'n five fellers here.
Send more snacks too. We didn't have much to begin with and that Ritzenheimer feller (just what kind of name is that anyway?) done rustled all the Slim Jim's.
I realize that 50 gallon drum ought to have been sufficient however that is similar to just 5 huge caps worth and we're more'n five fellers here.
Regards
Sania
Call the FBI! Evict the spammers!
The spammer's choice of comment to repost (one of the lube ones, he explains to future generations) is hilarious.
Future generations will have butts, but not in a way we can understand.
Sania, chabeli, I'm sure there are better things you could be doing with your life than reposting slightly altered comments on Unfogged. Especially that sort of comment. What would your mother think?
At least it's not selling lube at an outlet store.
Don't Tell Mum I Work on the Rigs: (She Thinks I'm a Piano Player in a Whorehouse)
It's actually quite a good read. The sort of book you find falling apart in youth hostels and dive boats.
I'd bet that most disorderly houses just have an iPod on shuffle. Mom wouldn't be fooled.
Nah, that'd be too much like hard work. They'd just stream Spotify.
"Mom, it's not a whorehouse. It's ColdPlay. I'm sorry I've hidden this from you."
40: as long as they don't leave it on "Shuffle All".
https://xkcd.com/400/
If it was intentional on the part of FBI/state police to round up as many leaders as possible separately before the barricade started, that puts in a better light the previous lack of response to them driving all around the area.
But I feel sorry for the people there who were taken in by the main martyrdom-in-defense-of-theft kooks, and possibly would like to leave but are intimidated.
If I were confident that the police have video showing that the guy who was killed did not have his hands in the air, but was acting in a manner that would get an African American teenager shot, I would say this was a step forward on balance. Should I have that confidence?
Women like confidence. So you should be confident is you are a feminist.
||
Sam Kriss is funny
American aphanisis: in search of Donald Trump
Imagine how America would look under fascism. So I imagined. They seemed to think that fascism meant banning entertainment, or the suppression of any form of enjoyment by a dictatorship that exists solely to be cruel. It meant, essentially, not being able to party. Whatever they did, it could therefore never be fascist. Walter Benjamin defines it differently. Fascism is 'the aestheticisation of politics.' It's the subordination of all modes of life to entertainment; American fascism would first of all be fun.
Hmmm. Umm, carry on. You're competing with LGM for best jokes.
|>
46: yeah. This is what makes me queasy about the people saying "I'm glad the police shot this guy, he made his choice to walk around armed, he was threatening people, thugs like that deserve shooting".
I guess we have to wait for the press conference in four hours.
Or speculate recklessly. Don't let me stop you.
Apparently, one of the leaders not in custody is upset because he isn't supposed to have guns. He murdered his father. To be fair to his view, apparently there's something about guns in the Constitution and he didn't need a gun to murder anybody the first time he tried.
Heaven forfend that a man who has murdered his father be denied guns! In ancient Rome he would have been tied in a sack with a dog, a serpent and a cockerel and thrown into the River Tiber.
I hope we're civilised enough these days not to kill the poor animals.
The 70s were a different time. Lots of drugs and patricide.
From the link in 52, "According to records obtained by The Oregonian, Wampler was accused of hitting his 62-year-old father in the head with a 16-inch rod while he was asleep in bed at his Lower Lake, Calif., home, killing him."
From a recent thread, Earl Warren's father died in 1938, also in California, under mysterious circumstances after being struck in the head with a pipe or rod.
Wampler, now 68, would have been -10 years old at the time of Warren's death. Can someone not yet born murder the father of a future Supreme Court justice? I don't know, but it would be irresponsible not to speculate.
Can someone not yet born murder the father of a future Supreme Court justice?
It would explain the mysteriousness of the circumstances.
46, 49: No way to tell without video.
I will say that your prior expectations of how he was acting should be affected by the fact that he was indubitably participating in an armed occupation of government property. That is, a police officer looking at someone who he knows for certain has been participating in an armed group making threats of violence is in a different position than one, say, responding to a vague report of a man with a gun in a Walmart.
57: But they're also claiming he charged at the cops, which doesn't seem plausible. I mean, come one, who does that?
S/b "come on", obviously.
But still, an unarmed guy was shot dead that quickly after encountering the police. Did they even try to de-escalate with this guy? He's old and it's cold outside. Couldn't they have just locked themselves in their cars and waited for him to get tired?
I haven't seen video or read any kind of detailed account of what happened, so I've got no idea of the specifics.
58: Are you trolling? You've never encountered a story where cops claimed the guy charged before?
Does it even matter what happened as far as the wingnut narrative is concerned? Even if there's footage showing the guy drawing a gun and taking aim at the police, the yahoos will just say that it's fake.
No. He's calling people here who have described police versions of other shootings implausible hypocrites, because this time we believe everything the police said.
The accusation of hypocrisy doesn't really work, because as far as I can tell there isn't a detailed account of what happened for us to be credulous about.
65 to 62. I suppose you could call it trolling, come to think.
I'm home sick and my sarcasm detector is way off this morning. Apparently it's located in my sinuses.
Referring quite specifically to the Michael Brown shooting in which many here refused to believe that Michael Brown charged at the police.
Eyewitnesses (ie Ammon Bundy) apparently said he had his hands in the air and was "cooperating with police" when he was shot: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/01/26/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-siege-arrests/index.html
But there isn't a detailed police account yet.
That is, that's a third-hand report of what Bundy said.
According to this from Oregonian, the account of him charging is also per one of the adverse possessors.
"When he exited the vehicle, the rear wheels were still spinning," McConnell said. "He charged at law enforcement" and was shot.
McConnell disputed earlier accounts on social media that Finicum was shot while on his knees with his hands up.
I forget, does Oregon have body cams? I could well believe that (1) the arrest was justified and (2) the police fucked up the process.
49: By the way, Ajay, are you talking about anyone in particular who's glad this guy got shot, or just nutpicking Facebook or something?
69 I saw other purported eyewitness accounts disputing Ammon Bundy's version and saying that he did in fact charge the police: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitnesses-knock-down-conspiracy-theories-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/
74: A lot of people over at LGM were expressing those sentiments. No one here though fortunately.
Of course hard to say who those eyewitnesses were since everyone at that stop seems to have been arrested. Presumably secondhand at least.
Didn't LaVoy Finicum give an interview on national TV a few days ago in which he said he'd rather die than go to prison? While sitting under a blue tarp, on a rocking chair, with a rifle across his lap?
It is literally the most common rhetorical tactic of the perennially aggrieved portion of the right (which is to say nearly all of it lately) to take what a black person might say in response to an injustice and parrot it back in response to their own situation without regard to logic or circumstances*. I think claiming the guy was murdered by the police will fit into this tradition without difficulty.
* e.g. responding to complaints about the all-white Oscar nominees by asking how many white people are up for a BET award.
78: The tarp was to hide the dildo.
This interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR-5umLEvbc
I'm sad the guy got shot, but if you're gonna take this position that's what you're gonna get.
Suddenly, the right is going to want body cams, the police to hold their fire until bullets start flying at them, and mandatory minimum sentences eliminated.
81: To be overly explicit, it's still not okay for law enforcement to shoot someone who's actively trying to martyr themselves unless it's absolutely necessary. On the other hand, if he gave an an interview saying pretty much that (is there a transcript of it anyplace?), it's not all that surprising if that's what happened.
See also "If you just cooperate with the police, you won't get shot."
83:
Leroy: "I wil shoot them if they try to arrest me."
Seems reasonable for police to give him less time to comply than someone else.
85: He said literally that? Wow.
82:
Dude, something like 90% of the population wants body cams for cops. Hell, most cops want body cams for cops. It's not really a left-right issue.
Fascinating video from a guy who was driving one of the cars and got arrested, who says that LaVoy took off, crashed into a snowbank, and jumped out and charged the cops.
Armed insurrection is one thing. Gary Stu novels is a bridge too far.
In hindsight the FBI seems to have handled this quite well. Not knowing they would eventually act was kind of infuriating though, but perhaps mollifying me should not be their highest priority.
Even in the absence of body cams, a confontation this politically charged should absolutely be recorded, with audio and from multiple angles.
92: Isn't it a little early for hindsight?
You should wait until after the press conference, at least.
I just meant the initial period of gently trying to talk these shitheads down, and then scooping up their leaders at an opportune time. It could still go horrifically wrong here on out, of course.
The press conference was supposed to have started now.
perhaps mollifying me should not be their highest priority.
Of course not. Their highest priority should be mollifying me.
almost 100 comments and no "NNM to Tarp Man."
Did the captured Bundy have a stroke or was he making a face on purpose?
Nerve damage from when someone drove a truck over his head when he was a kid, apparently.
I ran over my brother in a Ford Thunderbird. But it was only his arm.
Still, he did take an oath to support and defend the Constitution.
Just a bit more of this and we, the dastardly forces of liberalism, will have eroded the Third Amendment into nothingness.
105: Manhattan's prohibitive rents, preventing the quartering of forces from Queens, will be one of its only assets in the Great Interborough War.
To the OP: As you can imagine, it's all over the news here, and people generally seem relieved. Having watched some of the video feed from the remaining occupiers, I wouldn't count on a peaceful resolution. Those are some very angry, heavily armed and delusional dudes.
109 - This is what makes me nuts. Like children living in a filthy room because they don't want to put things away. And throwing tantrums until their parents give up. The freedom to do whatever you want turns everything into a shithole.
109: So, basically what they're saying is that no law enforcement will go anywhere near the area and, for example, if someone who wasn't was to go out there with a rifle and practice shooting on a bunch of cows wandering around, well, who's to investigate?
In an unrelated matter there are people here who live in or around Nevada right?
"Standard HRT truck"?
I think it's the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, which also does counter-terrorism stuff.
Ah. From his description, I couldn't tell if it was a generic truck style, or something specific like that.
I don't mean all the time, but work sometimes gets to you and you just need to dig up a grave.
109:
They remind me of the frat boys (one of whom was a roommate) that I had to kick out of my house for playing fooseball at 4 AM when I had work the next day. They were oh-so-obsessed with their freedoms.
Who hasn't desecrated a grave?
Sausagely, I assume.
Sausagely
That's our non-googlable way of saying Ylegasuas
101: For someone like me who hasn't been following this story at all, it's impossible to tell which comments are jokes and which ones describe things that really happened.
120: 102 is a video of Bundy explaining the injury.
I think you could safely assume that they're mostly describing things that really happened.
109: So, basically what they're saying is that no law enforcement will go anywhere near the area and, for example, if someone who wasn't was to go out there with a rifle and practice shooting on a bunch of cows wandering around, well, who's to investigate?
In an unrelated matter there are people here who live in or around Nevada right?
Well, never mind that, there's a load of Paiute Indians in the area who are (rightly) pissed off and have a rifle or two as well. Come on, guys, be the rustling you want to see in the world.
I'm home sick and my sarcasm detector is way off this morning. Apparently it's located in my sinuses.
I'm just happy the yield on my trolling was locally sourced.
Do you have that godawful cold/flu/whatever with the sore throat and everything? I had that shit for like five weeks along with the rest of my family. Swollen tonsils, earaches, it was brutal. Not entirely viral either. I tried being the holdout who resists contributing to antibiotic resistance. I am an idiot. My sister and oldest daughter (her tonsils looked like veiny golfballs) both went and got antibiotics and the worst of it disappeared within a day or so.
there are people here who live in or around Nevada right?
Beyond the Utahns I don't know, but a lot of lourdes' extended family is in or from Nevada.
I only know what I've been able to glean from the comments here, but from that I get the impression that Lourdes's family is primarily in northern Nevada, while the Bundys are southern Nevada folks. There are Paiutes in both areas, but they are actually quite different.
So bored at work and I'm all out of Bundy lube jokes.
The bit about shooting at the petroglyphs makes me furious.
110, 129: exactly. Me too. I mean, what's the point?
129/130. Exactly the same as Da'esh blowing up random bits of Palmyra. Look what we can do! Aren't we the big kids! These people are not the best and the brightest.
And it's guaranteed to piss off annoying prissy people, which makes it more fun.
132 nails the motivation. Why plink cans when you can piss off people you hate?
I don't suppose there's any chance that this Oregon stand-off will encourage something to be done in Nevada?
Couldn't they put a lean on the cattle? Not being able to sell the cows to slaughterhouses would put a crimp in the operation, no?
a lean on the cattle
If you lean on cows, they tip.
Anyway, it's the digging up settler graves that made me wonder what they are doing. I figured destroying native artifacts was easy enough to explain by the whole "this is our land now because we got here first as far as we're concerned" history of European settlement in the Americas.
135: Probably be dangerous for the guy who had to go write down the VIN for those cows.
ISIS has the basic competence to sell artifacts on the black market.
ISIS has a lot of people with basic competencies. They also sell oil, although apparently this is becoming more difficult logistically thanks to Putin and the Iraqi Kurds (they halved the pay of their grunts the other day). The former Ba'athist staff officers presumably have some basic training, notwithstanding their sterling performance in 2003.
However, they need to find something for the deluded kids who come to join them from here and there to do when they're not actually getting killed, and a bit of random vandalism wrapped up in pseudo-religious blather is just the ticket, because it keeps them busy and it's exciting because it goes "bang".
140: So you're saying that we should send them shipments of Xboxes and Nintendo Game Cubes?
With the Game Cubes, maybe some hard candy.
They also sell oil, although apparently this is becoming more difficult logistically thanks to Putin and the Iraqi Kurds
Sorry, but despite what Russia Today says, until a couple of months ago Putin had done the square root of fuck all about Isis. He talks a good game but if you look at a map of where the Russian air strikes are landing, pretty much all of them are hitting non-Isis rebel held territory. The locals have learned to recognise the difference between Syrian government strikes and Russian ones because the Russians follow up the fast jets with gunships fifteen minutes later, so they can strafe survivors and rescue/recovery teams. The Russians want to keep Assad in power, they're quite open about this, so they are naturally hitting the targets that will help them achieve that. And that's not ISIS.
They've hit a few ISIS targets (or say they have) since the Metrojet shootdown, but not oil targets. And overall, plenty of people are saying, by hitting the non-ISIS rebels so hard they've actually strengthened ISIS' hold.
The Iraqi Kurds meanwhile have been (understandably) fighting pretty much a defensive campaign to protect their own people.
The people who have been hitting oil fields and production sites, as well as ISIS troops and vehicles, are the USAF and (in a token sense) the RAF and the other Arab nations, though the latter have mostly stopped now because they would rather bomb Yemen.
"Thanks to Putin". Honestly.
Anyway, it's the digging up settler graves that made me wonder what they are doing.
Antiquing? Like, maybe settlers would have been burred with some valuable old shit worth selling?
Maybe the settlers stole the portable native artifacts?
maybe settlers would have been burred with some valuable old shit worth selling?
I don't think 19th century white Americans were into grave goods, but I'm willing to be corrected by one of the many people here who knows more than I do.
This was years before Graves made that kettle and Target started selling his stuff.
There's a pretty lucrative underground trade in (old) native american and probably pioneer artifacts (I am told). I wouldn't be surprised if someone took the opportunity to go in and help themselves to stuff on the theory that the authorities weren't being allowed in to catch them doing it.
Pre-Columbian pioneer artifacts are really valuable, especially to LDS.
My cousin collect seed corn hats, many of which say "Pioneer". If I live long enough to see the Ogallala Aquifer drained, I'm going to collect center-pivot irrigation systems. Should be cheap to pick up then.
149: I'm sure there is, but would you find much of that in a grave? Maybe some buttons or something?
"We're asking them to just drop the charges," Fry said. "And nobody dies. We're being reasonable."
For full fairness I should have put an ellipsis between those last two sentences, but, you know, fuck those guys.
The level of "Why are they taking this seriously? Don't they know there aren't supposed to be consequences for us?" in the responses these loons are having to the crackdown/arrests is impressive. There's an awful lot of it on that video I linked in 632 of the previous thread - they're constantly whining about how this response is so unnecessary, that the Feds are acting like it's all some kind of violent video game, and why are they arresting people and so on. I guess it's not surprising that they're basically high on the idea that they're privileged important heroes and LARPing around playing at being dangerous but it's still amazing to see just how pathetic they get when it becomes clear that there genuinely are about to be real consequences, especially since previous (Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.) standoffs have at least had some really violent/dangerous loons involved.
LARPing is right. They're not actual revolutionaries, they're revolutionary cosplayers, and they're as startled to be actually arrested as a Sealed Knot member would be to be stabbed with a pike.
Had a look at 153, especially the top pic. If the FBI are hoping to starve the last five out, they could be in for a long wait with those two.
155: Oh man. This is The Napoleon of Notting Hill. It's sort of horrible in real life.
158 - I know a priest who actually coronated an insane pretend Napoleon as Napoleon IV, to get him out of the church on Christmas Eve.
157 When does the cannibalism start?
I thought of the Oregon stand off while watching Taps for the first time in many years on Netflix last week.
I don't suppose the film sheds any light on the Oregon situation except that they're lucky that Timothy Hutton, Sean Penn and Tom Cruise weren't in there with them, or they might have had a much worse outcome than they did.
I'd bet at least half of the Malheur guys are the type undercover FBI agents could manipulate into Islamic terrorist acts.
162 Maybe I'm putting more stock in the FBI's competence in these matters but I think that's a likely underestimate.
It makes me think, not for the first time, that Americans would be incredibly crappy partisan resistance fighters if this country ever gets invaded. Being some fat dude who orders 300 weapons at a gun show isn't enough, rural Americans aren't like tough Balkan peasants or anything. We'd have weapons but capacity for resistance and an actuve guerilla movement would be low. C. Thomas Howell in Red Dawn isn't happening. It also proves how ridiculous the "second amendment option" is both as a theory of government and/or the second amendment, not that anyone here needed persuading on that point.
Being some fat dude who orders 300 weapons at a gun show isn't enough...
Like who the hell orders 300 assault rifles but forgets to bring the Cheetos?
Americans used to own logistics. What happened?
No, see, they're sure that deep down the Feds know that the Bundy family is right that there's no constitutional authority for (a) wildlife refuges or (b) the FBI to arrest people outside of legitimate federal territory. They knew they wouldn't be arrested, because the Feds are only able to enforce their misperceptions of the Constitution on people willing to play the Feds' game. Confront a Fed with the truth and they fold. Isn't that the lesson of the previous Bundy stand off?
I want to see these people charged under 18 USC 2384, because that's exactly what this thing was.
I think the effectiveness of partisans is situational, and it helps to fight desperate, clueless and foreign occupiers. The Russians were very effective against the Germans, but not against their own government.
An ancestor was apparently an effective and ruthless partisan leader, Loyalist, during the Am. Revolution in New Brunswick. Sort of Mel Gibson in reverse. All over the continent, the revolution was a real civil war, maybe more of one than the conflict we call by that name, although it had partisan fighting too, in Missouri and Georgia particularly.
I find their insistence on being truly "Constitutional" interesting. I mean obviously their legal theories are wrong and insane, but the understanding of the Constitution as basically a religious fetish object for proprietarians, regardless of text or existing law, is interesting, and obviously not limited to them. It's like the insane Greg Abbot plan to "restore" the constitution by ... passing a ton of constitutional amendments that would completely alter the structure of government in the US.
125: I'm just happy the yield on my trolling was locally sourced.
Nearly made a crack about SLC cops, temple recommends, and Ammons. (An unfair crack, of course.)
Anyhow, yes, the local doom cold. Started with a sore throat, wound up making my sinuses completely swell shut. Started over Thanksgiving and I kicked it at the beginning of January (saw the doctor when I had an earache, and he said it looked viral) , and then the semester started and I got hit with another round of it or one of its cousins. Today I'm feeling a lot better -- no antibiotics, but finally managed to get the neti pot to work which reduced a lot of the pressure.
no constitutional authority
Right, they've read the Constitution! And they found some words they like. From the Bundy Ranch Blog:
Let us go to article IV sec. 3 of the Constitution which states: The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States ... This section of the Constitution grants Congress the power to make needful rules and regulations while the land is still a Territory (capital T) and grants Congress the power to dispose of the land. It does not grant unto congress the power to retain the land, only to dispose of it. This means that the federal government does not and never will OWN the land, which is a Territory. They can make the rules while it is a Territory, but they have the obligation, duty and authority to dispose of it. In other words, the people OWN the land and have charged the Federal government to be administrators until it can be disposed of. [emphasis in original]
But you don't win ConLaw arguments by putting up a poorly designed blogspot page (I mean, seriously, why is all the text centered?). You go into court. And the fact that their arguments for interpreting the Constitution in their favored way wouldn't likely prevail in court is, to them, ipso facto proof that the courts themselves have become agents of a corrupt, sprawling federal behemoth that must be stopped. Or something.
164: I don't know how true that is - but I am pretty certain that, yeah, the guys who fantasize about being partisans and have huge arsenals and stuff wouldn't be those partisans if any real situation. Or if they were they'd be the clownish ones that make a big splash about their guerrilla warfare and fancy secret camp and then a couple tanks roll right over them and they all run away and pretend they were never involved.
171 That's just batshit insane.
Do you guys follow the "I'm not driving, I'm traveling" crew? There's a ton of legal conspiracy theories floating around, and their craziness sometimes results in casualties.
174: This comment has yellow fringe on it so I don't have to read it.
Do you guys follow the "I'm not driving, I'm traveling" crew?
My clients get sued by those people. There have been briefs involving spacecraft.
174: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017319856
The thing in 171 is insane and obviously wrong but also is congruent with a lot of hardcore proprietarian readings of the Constitution and US government that are traditionally American. Or put differently there have always been people in the US who, for obvious reasons, have thought that the legal duty of government with regard to public land is to put it in private hands as quickly as possible.
My barber is a gold-fringe kind of guy. Sadly he's also a felon involved in mild illegality, and I hope, for the sake of his excellent fades, that he doesn't act on those beliefs if the chance comes up.
It's not only congruent with hardcore readings of the Constitution, but also with how certain branches of American Christianity treat the Gospels (i.e. taking a single word, stripping it of context and knowledge of historical useage*).
* leaving aside translation issues in the Bible.
I like how the quoted bit 171 latches onto the capital T in Territory and imbues it with special significance, while ignoring the fact that every single noun in the quoted sentence is likewise capitalized.
AITISHB the sovereign citizen family of interpretations is cargo. Turn incomprehensible jargon and meaning-twisting to work (purportedly) for the little guy instead of for those with money and power.
I'm not driving, I'm traveling
I googled this since I'd never heard of it, and as far as I can see this crowd seem to think that pre-existing common law overrides subsequent statute. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this has NEVER been the case. If King Henry II issued a decree in 1160 that conflicted with some prior judgment, even in a superior court, you better believe that the judges would uphold that decree thereafter.
Practitioners of earlier versions of this type of thinking just sued the judges in their own courts because any judge that didn't agree with them was obviously not respecting the constitution.
The passengers in your car are traveling and riding, while you, the driver, are traveling and driving. Both. At the same time. And all of you are breathing. And existing.
Fucking words. How do they work?
I believe they wanted $10 million in silver coins. That is, U.S. coins from back when they have silver in them with face values totaling $10 million, not just $10 million worth of silver.
Coke argued in the 17th century that at least in some cases common law trumped statute and some English judges arguably saidd as much sometimes. Obviously England never serioisly adopted that theory, no American state to my knowledge ever adopted it at all, and it is clearly not the law anywhere in the United States now. But with that said it was popular in revolutionary America to cite Coke and claim that common law trumped various statutes of the 18th Century Parliament.
186:
Echoes of Bryan.
I remember a magazine feature story from the sixties of people redeeming their silver certificates for silver, a one-time offer. A silver certificate looked just like any other kind of treasury note in style.
And apologies for the spelling. It is crazy but not unthinkably crazy to believe that the 9th or 10th amendments were intended to adopt common law as trumping statute. Oddly, in one kinda-sorta and bizarre sense, the US Supreme Court agrees -- it has read (bizarrely) the 11th amendment to preserve the common-law doctrine of sovereign immunity (you can't sue a state directly at law) even as to states sued in federal court. That common law rule trumps Congressional statute, even though the Constitution clearly does not expressly require it.
Also, you can read the Lochner-era US Supreme Court (late 19th/early 20th century US Supreme Court that used the "due process" clause to strike things like wage and labor law as unconstitutional) as believing that the US Constitution and the 14th Amendment were intended to preserve property-protecting aspects of the common law against state or federal statute. That's also obviously wrong, but it was a belief that most elite lawyers in the US seem to have accepted for 20 or 30 years.
Honestly both the current interpretation of the 11th Amendment and Lochner-era jurisprudence isn't much crazier, if at all, than that excerpt on the Bundy's website.
It does not grant unto congress the power to retain the land, only to dispose of it
That isn't what "dispose" means! I wonder if they think "man proposes, God disposes" means that God gets rid of everything.
The federal government is required and enjoined to cause all federal land to be subducted into the earth's mantle, thus disposing of it in the truest sense.
God disposes
Cleanliness is next to Godliness because the kitchen sink has a garbage disposal, and I bathe in the kitchen sink.
I actually thought that the idea that common law could trump statute was a live one in England at the time, and the source of the notion of "inalienable rights".
193 is so great.
AITISHB the sovereign citizen family of interpretations is cargo.
Sometimes cargo works. Ogged came back.
<sigh>
Fine, I'll go set up the bamboo swimming pool again...
FBI just released the video of the shooting on their youtube channel. It's about nine minutes into the edited version.
The FBI has released helicopter video of Finicum's shooting. About 9 minutes in, he hits the snowbank. He does get out of the truck with his hands up, but then does appear to reach for his waistband. But the camera is way up in the sky, so it's hard to tell exactly what happened.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/fbi-releases-video-of-finicum-s-death
Man, that one cop or feeb or whatever came really close to getting run over by a full size truck. And the positioning of that guy who comes out of the trees is giving me hives. Watch the crossfire, asshole!
294: yes to both of those. I thought the dude was gonna be badly mauled.
I really hope the helicopter shooting the footage was black.
Edited footage? The Planned Parenthood thread is over there.
They posted both edited and unedited versions. 200 and 201 actually refer to the unedited version.
Apparently they cut out three minutes of the truck sitting there doing nothing.
The whole thing is getting depressing, especially the four people still left in the refuge. A bunch of idiots in over their head, egged on by others who then got out while the getting was good.
I'd say it's been pretty depressing all along.
What a bunch of Debbie Downers. This is great. For all the talk and parading around with AR's these motherfuckers scattered like chaff at the first whiff of violence from trained professionals. We're down to a couple delusional manatees in camo and their socially maladjusted cameraman.
I mean, this is definitely about as positive an endgame to the whole mess as could have reasonably been expected.
The whole thing is hilarious on many levels, but can you listen to cameraman's interview and not have a bit of sympathy for the guy despite laughing at him?
Maybe you hear this shit all the time and the novelty has worn off, I dunno.
I wouldn't say I hear it all the time these days, but I've definitely heard way more than enough of this shit in my life to never want to hear it, or even hear about it, ever again.
Maybe you hear this shit all the time
Sure. People are always complaining about why them and so on. What rubs me the wrong way about these guys is that they're not even trying at this point to articulate what's so fucking special about them that they should get to walk scott free from a federal felony.
The other big thing that really pisses me off is their complaining and being all bent out of shape about law enforcement using numbers and tactics to take them down like it's unfair or something. These fake fucking commandos always purposely pull this shit on unarmed employees in remote areas with low manpower. Never do you see these guys come up into our capitol where the city pd alone has over 400 armed personnel because they know damn well raising a muzzle in our direction will get them shot on sight.
The guy yelling into the camera yesterday that it was time for all the cheap talking "patriots" to put up or shut up was pretty good.
Hey the good news is that with Bundy gone they can smoke weed and drink beer. The way the Founding Fathers intended.
Hey the good news is that with Bundy gone they can smoke weed and drink beer. The way the Founding Fathers intended.
Well, they could if they had any.
Did they smoke and drink it all already? That's a shame.
It's also pretty hilarious how the judge in Portland said she won't let anyone out on bail while the refuge is still being occupied, so now Bundy is begging everyone to give up and go home.
I'm not sure that's the only, or even the main, reason Bundy's asking people to go home. He got what he wanted out of this thing, and he may just want it to end.
I mean, the judge could still deny them bail even if the remaining guys leave the refuge.
I bet Bundy's had it explained it will look much worse at his trial/sentencing if there's any more violence resulting.
Worth noting: Ammon Bundy was the only one of the initially arrested group to hire his own lawyer. The rest opted for public defenders.
I wonder if the others have enough money and sense to hire their own lawyers. We could be in for some pro se hijinks.
You mean the ones who have been arrested more recently? The ones who were arraigned at the same time as Bundy already chose to go with public defenders. I doubt any of them have enough money to hire lawyers.
The thing about these guys, which makes their fulminating about the government so ridiculous, is that they're all on the fucking dole. Ranching in the desert is not generally a profitable enterprise, and the only reason most of them are able to do it at all is that the BLM lets them lease federal land for grazing at a massive discount compared to what a private landowner would charge. (And some, like Finicum, can't turn a profit even then, so they turn to other sources of income like fostering kids.) In exchange, the feds put a bunch of conditions on what they can do, which is part of why they're so pissed off and the main source of their actual grievances, which sound incredibly petty and absurd whenever they're cornered into specifying them. But ultimately, they're just angry and resentful because that's how they are, and nothing the government does can satisfy them.
massive discount compared to what a private landowner would charge
Exactly, and I think non Westerners don't really know the scales involved. Finicum, for example, was running a couple hundred head of cattle. His lease gave him access to 17000 acres of land eight or nine months out of the year. Yeah, pretty barren country but the yearly fee? 1100 bucks.
Most of them aren't actually ranchers anyway, right? It's just a tribal thing to them.
Here's a feature written about the guy who lives near here during the Nevada episode.
Two hundred head sounds very small scale to me.
Regardless of herd size, it's pretty obvious these ranchers have beef with the government.
You have to be careful with these guys: some of them are real mavericks.
It's about time they rounded these dudes up.
Indeed, now might they do it pat.
216: I suspect part of their whining is that the FBIs tactic worked so well on them. They just sort of hung out there, chatted with them, let them roam in and out of the compound and town and so on until the guys involved all felt secure and safe, like they really weren't facing any actual opposition. They were just taking a stand, you know? For the Constitution! (The fact that these guys are a bunch of morons wasn't exactly a problem for this approach.) And then within the space of an hour or so the Feds went from "hey whatever you guys do your thing" to "YOU ARE ORDERED TO DISPERSE PUT YOUR HANDS ON YOUR HEAD" and snapped up the ringleaders while everyone else went scurrying away shocked and confused.
I'm pretty sure that the FBI was intending basically that reaction, anyway. Build up a presence but make them feel invulnerable or that what they're doing isn't actually dangerous or that no one is seriously talking about long term consequences for their running around with weapons seizing things. And then turn on a dime and throw them all in jail before they have a chance to shift back into shootout-for-our-liberties! mode.
It doesn't make their "Dude! We thought you were cool!" reaction any less funny though.
I do wonder if that was truly the FBI's intent throughout. I believe there was a point when the governor called on law enforcement to do more. If things had gone differently, maybe it would have been 2014 and Bundy pere all over again.
I would guess that they much did not want the video of Bundy bing welcomed by the sheriff of Grant County going viral.
I would guess that they much did not want the video of Bundy bing welcomed by the sheriff of Grant County going viral.
Is it just me or does LaVoy Finicum sound like a Harry Potter spell?
Speaking of Finicum, has there been any solid information about exactly where in Arizona his ranch is? One of the early reports I saw put it in Chino Valley, which is near Prescott, but some of the more recent articles have put it in Cane Beds, which is near Colorado City on the Arizona Strip. Both of those areas are very, very conservative even by the standards of rural Arizona (which is saying a lot), but the Strip is at least one order of magnitude crazier than anywhere else in the state. Colorado City is the headquarters of the FLDS polygamists who recently had a huge child molestation scandal that I think ended up with their leader going to jail.
Is there anyone left at Malheur? I think the last I heard there were three but I'm not sure.
243: you could probably search the county assessor's website.
I took the advice in 245 and found something under what is apparently his legal given name (Robert) in Cane Beds, with a PO box in Colorado City, as well as several other people with the same surname in that area. No surname hits in Yavapai County.
near Colorado City on the Arizona Strip
That was my understanding and yeah, it's crazytown down there.
Hmm. That might force a change in my holiday plans.
248: Ha, were you planning to go to some national parks or something?
He was going to take over a more scenic wildlife refuge.
Don't worry ajay - with all the guns people are carrying down there it's pretty safe. No bad guys around to cause trouble.
Malheur is totally scenic! And used to be very peaceful! Anyway, have you seen the latest demands? This is like negotiating with three-year-olds.
252 The airing of the grievances. Does that come before or after the feats of strength?
255 Got any more links to those complaints? I feel a need to gloat.
I like how they specify "no long guns." Because handguns are PEACEFUL.
249: I was actually. Monument Valley. So, pack the Kevlar then?
I mean, it is the other side of the state but I fear the spread of crazy.
The PPN demands in 252 weirdly indicate the Sheriff's Office, rather than the Oregon State Police, was involved in the shooting death of Finicum:
PPN condemns the violent action taken by the Harney County Sheriff's Department along with the FBI in the shooting death of Mr. Lavoy Finicum.
[...]
This operation will demand the following:
- Immediate detention by Oregon State Police of the FBI special agent in charge along with all agents and LEO involved in the shooting death of Lavoy Finicum. A first hand eyewitness account presents reasonable cause for arrest while the investigation takes place.
Everything I've read says it was OSP and FBI, with an OSP trooper pulling the trigger. Is there some sort of conspiracy theory that it was really a sheriff's deputy, or are these derps just not very good with facts?
246: Thanks! That explains a lot.
259, 260: Totally, totally different. You'll be fine.
What teo said. The tourist areas are fine. The really crazy towns are not close to anything anyone wants to see and the people there are only there because it's in the middle of fucking nowhere and they're doing something like living in a polygamous enclave.
There's no "Big Love Tour" that goes to the polygamous enclaves?
Well that's ok. the way things are going even a monogamous enclave would be a step up.
News is that there were around thirty big pickups with US and confederate flags roaring up and down the streets of Burns tonight. Supposedly, it is the "Pacific Patriots" trying to intimidate all the locals and police. It is hard to believe this is happening in Oregon of all places and less than 200 miles from me.
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Regards
Nice article I like this. Keep sharing
Regards