Huh. I'd heard of the Sovereign Citizens movement before, but I thought of them as just another garden variety "Gobmint ain't the boss of me" militia group. I had no idea how complex their weirdness was. All that's missing are lizard people, or maybe the Knights Templar.
It's Alchemy. Find the right mix of heated mercury, sulphur, etc phraseology, punctuation, ink... and you will turn base metals court submissions into gold. All you have to do is keep trying until you find the right mix.
Isaac Newton, however, didn't go around blowing up government offices.
I find them sort of fascinating in a way.
There's this clear sense that there are basic simple rules and if you just manipulate them in the right way you (because you are savvier than other people) can get all sorts of sneaky benefits. And that the law, which is somehow distinct from society as a whole*, is a system like that. It's basically magical thinking: that if they just use the right formula they'll get great stuff out of nowhere. The tricks they try to use even look like they're trying to cast magic spells - eventually they're going to start trying stuff like submitting petitions during the vernal equinox at midnight smeared in a mixture of blood and soil from a crossroads or something.
I mean, they're dangerous and kind of scary, and getting on their radar at all must be sort of unnerving given their tendency to aggressively harass people. But there's still something oddly endearing to me about a group of people who think they're sorcerers (of the law).
*Because if it weren't then you couldn't say "despite what the government says you can and can't do...". Also they're under the impression that for some reason the government would have to use sneaky accounting trickery to get around the rules instead of just flatly stating "you can't have that it's ours". And that judges have to clearly read their massive petitions and aren't allowed to just go "no that's loony bullshit" and kick them out of court.
3: well, if the sanctus sanctorum in your system of government is a rather haphazardly punctuated 18th century document whose interpretation is the main purpose of your highest court, then it's understandable that magical thinking is attractive. Deriving insane but favourable conclusions from minute analysis of punctuation and grammar is a pastime not limited to sovereign citizens.
And the whole secret-treasury-account thing is nuts, but... is it that much odder than descriptions of the MBS deals that led up to the last crisis? There were banks out there getting local sheriffs to repossess houses from people who didn't even have mortgages, because of paperwork errors.
(Watch The Big Short, by the way, it's really good.)
In English law, vexatious litigants can be served with a Civil Restraint Order, which bars them from bringing suit without permission of the court. Is there an equivalent in American jurisdictions? It would seem appropriate here.
Previous ages have seen nature magic, demonic magic and religious magic; ours has government magic: "The power of the US Postal Service compels you!"
I love that the conspirators are supposedly so rule-bound that simply filing the right paperwork has them gnashing their teeth in frustration as they hand over millions of dollars.
JENNIFER WILLIAMS is the secret Treasury account
Boy the government must have a serious bookkeeping problem if they track everyone by name given all the duplicates out there. Much better to assign them some kind of number, 9 digits would be enough to cover everyone, if that every happens we'll know we're really in trouble.
It's funny reading the beliefs because like all conspiracy theories there's a tiny bit of underlying truth- the faith and credit of the US government is predicated on the ability to cover those debts by taxation of its citizens, collected by force if necessary, and one of the main values of US currency is that it's accepted by the government as payment against that taxation. But that's just how modern fiat currency works, it only sounds scary if you add ooga booga to it.
Didn't Tolkein, in describing the odd behaviors of hobbits, talk about how all contracts had to be signed in triplicate in red ink? Was that at all a reference to sovcit beliefs?
7: Sort of like powerful demons, spirits, and other supernatural creatures can be made to do your bidding if you know the right incantations and spells.
I'm just sad that that article didn't mention that the flags flown in/around courthouses have gold fringes which means that they're actually admiralty courts bound by maritime law according to which slavery is legal.
The best way to fight the power is to use Microsoft operating systems. Their filesystems' case-insensitivity will stymie the "government's" evil schemes.
Previous ages have seen nature magic, demonic magic and religious magic; ours has government magic: "The power of the US Postal Service compels you!"
This would be a great AD&D campaign.
"OK, I cast Quickened Exhaustion of Administrative Remedies!"
(rolls)
"Sorry, he blocked it with his Amulet of Inappropriate Jurisdiction."
"OK, my turn. I open my Laptop Case of Holding and pull out my +3 Motion to Dismiss."
7: Part of the problem is that often they'll throw screaming fits complete with dozens of massive legal filings full of gibberish over such ridiculously minor things ( like the local government wanting them to have a license for their dog) that judges will just give them whatever it is they want in order to make them go away and stop taking up hours and hours of the court's time. And then, of course, they've won a case using their demented theories and that means that they're right!
Also there's just something brilliant about the twisty rationales and tricks that they try to use. This video explains that criminal cases can only be charged under maritime law or common law, and that maritime law doesn't apply. So only common law could apply and since the other party in the case is the commonwealth/people/etc. the judge, as an employee of the government, has to recuse themselves from the case.
the gold fringe thing is a real conspiracy theory
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm
so odd
Part of the problem is that often they'll throw screaming fits complete with dozens of massive legal filings full of gibberish
Another part of the problem is that they murder people.
Didn't Tolkein, in describing the odd behaviors of hobbits, talk about how all contracts had to be signed in triplicate in red ink?
Bilbo Baggins' will was all in accordance with hobbit legal customs, "which required, among other things, seven signatures of witnesses in red ink".
In English law, vexatious litigants can be served with a Civil Restraint Order, which bars them from bringing suit without permission of the court. Is there an equivalent in American jurisdictions? It would seem appropriate here.
There may also be a closer equivalent, but a federal law allows the IRS to charge a $5,000 civil penalty for "frivolous tax returns and specified frivolous submissions other than returns," based on a published list of frivolous arguments. This is the list (PDF), and it makes for good reading, at least for freaks like me.
I echo 4.2: although it's silly, pathetic, magical thinking, often racist/violent, nevertheless the "secret trust in our name" thing, in particular, speaks to a correct moral conviction that there is a tremendous amount of wealth out there which ordinary people helped generate and which they are systematically excluded from.
Yeah, 7 is my favorite part, too.
I've never quite gotten the Admiralty Court thing, but I probably don't want to know.
Hobbit legal fan fiction sounds so delicious.
Actually, a two-player card game based around magical legal thinking could be a lot of fun.
5 We have that too.
AISIMRB, during law school, I interned for a federal judge. Easily 25% of the cases pending at any given time were bullshit. Frivolous FOIA suits by prisoners outnumbered genuine nutballs (I must have mentioned the guy who sued Ted Kennedy, Anthony Kennedy, London, China, and Africa.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice_admiralty_court#American_Revolution
this is basically what it's about. a half remembered distant echo of this.
Continents do not have legal standing. Case dismissed.
I would have dismissed on the basis that Anthony Kennedy isn't even a real Kennedy.
Although I would also need clarification whether he meant the City of London or the Greater London Authority (or whatever equivalent of it was extant at the time). Presumably he just meant whichever is in charge of the Crown Jewels?
(reposted from the other place)
If you haven't seen it before, there's a great, if rather long, discussion of the Canadian version of this, using the term OPCA ("Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument") litigants:
http://www.canlii.org/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html
A major theme is that many of these people have been sold a package on how to behave this way, like a set of magic spells, and their literal buy-in helps reinforce the beliefs.
The flag fringe theory is an internationalist Communist fraud!
The Law of the Flag, an International Law, which is recognized by every nation of the planet, is defined as...
Since when does any righteous American patriot rely on international law, much less capitalize it. This smells of red heresy.
Hobbit legal fan fiction sounds so delicious.
I picture endless suits along the lines of Jarndyce and Jarndyce, but conducted in a good-humoured way because all the hobbits involved just rather like hearing the sounds of their own voices.
Hobbit legal fan fiction sounds so delicious.
Who will be nominated to replace Antonin Sackville-Baggins on the High Court of the Shire?
IIRC, the claim arose from an encounter with law enforcement on a bus, traveling in interstate commerce. In Maryland. I think China was a defendant because on of the medical professionals involved appeared to be (and maybe was -- I never found out) of Asian heritage. I have no recollection of the basis of the claim against London.
The really crazy thing? It's spread over to this side of the Atlantic. Ireland has them. Even Germany has them, and they're a civil-law country.
I have the weird impression it's like a linguistic computer virus; you read enough of it and you end up schizophrenic too.
The Red Book of Westmarch is misnamed as it was was actually written in green ink as a series of letters to the editor of the Shire Tribune.
28.last: Pretty sure these people aren't (and don't view themselves as) American patriots.
12: Also disappointed that the article didn't mention UCC 1-308, which not only plays an outsized batshit role in sovereign citizen magical thinking but also shows up in those ridiculous "hey facebook you hereby can't use my stuff" posts that circulate every now and then.
Related, I recommend the Scribd posting of the">http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/299471534/2-16-16-Doc-4-U-S-A-v-CLIVEN-BUNDY-USA-Detention-Memorandum-for-Cliven-Bundy">the motion for denying Cliven Bundy bail.
It has some interesting tidbits on how weird he is as a rancher - he basically lets his cattle roam free on federal land year-round, never feeding them, not even branding or otherwise systematically tracking them.
It also reads like by someone who's been aching to get him into crimknal court for years.
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The content of my comments.... eh, who cares. The violation of the sanctity of off blog communication is punishable by law (UCC 1-308 1-308 1-103 and the Rome Statute).
What's the ASCII code for a bloody red fingerprint?
31 last. It was a red double-decker bus?
35: as a result of which, your honor, they have become "wild, mean and ornery".
From my brief, thankfully glancing, contact with these types what really seems to keep it going is the profit derived by the people selling the "knowledge". And the gullibility of the marks, of course.
I thought just what Minivet said:
I echo 4.2: although it's silly, pathetic, magical thinking, often racist/violent, nevertheless the "secret trust in our name" thing, in particular, speaks to a correct moral conviction that there is a tremendous amount of wealth out there which ordinary people helped generate and which they are systematically excluded from.
The sovereign citizens people are in some respects an extreme, extreme manifestation of the same kind of alienation from the law that leads people to post forceless copyright disclaimers on facebook, and I think the position at the link is more or less right on about those. (The SCs are obviously way worse and way more pernicious.)
Also, while the sovereign citizens are clearly dangerous nutjobs, it has to be said that when you strip it of all the red ink and weird punctuation stuff, the underlying notion has strong echoes of the Ancient Constitution of England theory which was largely developed by Coke, no less, and which provided much of the ideological basis for the resistance to Charles I. Which is food for thought, if only to the extent that it makes you want to keep an eye on these people.
When I was clerking we had a persistent conspiracy/magic-law-words type (not sure he considered himself a sovereign citizen though) who ultimately poured a shitload of tar on the federal building steps as a protest against sanctions for his vexatious bullshit filings. Ended up getting probation for that, and I see now that he subsequently sued Tim Geithner (naturally) for over half a billion dollars (in cash or t-bills!) under--wait for it--the UCC, as recompense for his unlawful prosecution. And a couple years later apparently threw a few bricks through the courthouse window, which got him some time. Ugh. I guess that crosses the line from "mockably stupid" to "likely mentally ill", which is probably true of a good number of these types.
I bet you could convince these guys that capital letters derive from Rome, the seven headed dragon of Revelation, whereas lowercase comes from independent Charlemagne, and this is all way, way older than the United States.
Continents do not have legal standing
Ahem.
If you want a huge (yuge?) compendium of all the tax-related aspects of this (because at heart this is 99% about not wanting to pay taxes) see the Tax Protester FAQ. If you have a couple of spare hours you can skim it. The punctuation and capitalization stuff is there, the fringes on flags, making yourself a corporation, ad infinutso. There are some great excepts from court rulings, too.
TL;DR: a lot of their nutso beliefs arise from willfully taking tons of things out of context in various documents, misattributed quotes, etc.
Supposedly the flag fringe thing arises from a judge in 1925 who told the military that adding a fringe to a flag was permissible. The tax protesters read that as meaning, "if there a fringed flag it's a military flag and thus the court is a court martial.
People who fall for it probably are seduced by the $$$ but also think it's logical because lawyers wield great power and they have arcane knowledge that makes no sense to anyone! Ever! So, armed with their own nonsense, the sovcit/tax protesters sally forth to dubious battle.
AUSTRALIA the continent does not have legal standing; Australia the nation, which includes TASMANIA and other associated landmasses, not all of which are on the AUSTRALIAN continental shelf, does.
making yourself a corporation
I fail to see the problem with this, my friends.
As if anyone cares about the Cocos or Keeling Islands.
The tax protester FAQ in 49 is pretty great - I think the IRS has one too somewhere. They all pretty much boil down to:
1. "Can I not pay my taxes?"
No, you must pay your taxes.
2. "Well how about if I...
No, you must pay your taxes.
3. "I also..."
No, you must pay your taxes.
4. "Ah, but what if I were to.."
No, you must pay your taxes.
5. "Ok, I think I see what you mean. But I also read that.."
No, you must pay your taxes.
(etc.)
49.Last: Glad they focus on lawyers rather than Jews; 'bout time they got some love and respect (for a change)!
Important use of capital LETTERS in 50.
It does amuse me that people need to make up this legal folk magic: society already has magical things (as in, incantations that give power) that actually work, namely actual law and programming. But those are both hard and finite.
alienation from the law
I actually feel a fair amount of this. Casual contact with the law is through, what, EULAs and the paperwork associated with finances in ordinary life, to my eyes. Possibly also through family courts, which as far as I can tell basically work OK if there's enough money and no outright intent to harm, in other words when they are unnecessary, but not so well or at best very slowly in other circumstances.
So what's the actual perceived source for a sense of harmony with the law, either US or in Europe?
The level of alienation that I feel does not even lead to active tax minimaztion much less the lunacy that we're talking about, of course. But the correct alienation level is IMO actually pretty high.
59: That's fair. The difficulty in both those fields means that power generally accrues to those who can afford a multitude of sorcerers, thus making them unattainable, unfair, and incomprehensible to regular folk, whose sense of how the world works feels it should be able to go the other way. Although we still don't see people writing folk code. (Actually, correction, I think thedailywtf.com had some.)
The link in 44 is great, and I strongly suspect the "alienation from the law" that many people feel all across the political spectrum is a major driver of populism.
The link in 44 is appalling. "Hey little fella, it's cute that you think your words matter! Keep it up!"
Seriously, the instrument that has given ordinary people the most leverage in legal conflicts is having a camera and a rapid means to disseminate the photos. I'd be genuinely interested to read of an instance where ordinary speech or something like it, in the hands of an ordinary person rather than a legal pro, has made much difference in a legal conflict between small and large opponents in the US.
||
I suppose this belongs here
If anybody is following the recent criticisms of Sanderonomics and Doug Friedman, well, I don't know anything bout that except...over at a Michael Hudson interview he mentioned that Stephanie Kelton was Sanders economist on his Senate committee. Hmmm...Kelton is part of the Hudson/Wray/Galbraith/Tcherneva crew.
So...5.3% real growth for a decade? Sure it's possible. The difficulty is political, not economic.
MMT or Neochartalism says basically you print money
(not debt, not reserves to banks, cash for spending programs)
...until you see big inflation, and then you tax the inflation away. This of course puts money back into gov't coffers to be spent on goods and services.
What is the limit? Well, in an open global economy, exchange rates, who knows.
But understand that a Neochartalist would not blink at printing ten-twenty-fifty trillion dollars a year. (16 trillion a year US GDP, maybe 55 trillion global gdp). The neochartalists really do believe we can have it all, very easily. Can't afford it is not in their vocabulary. Tight money favors creditors.
Congress is a restraint on Treasury, so we would need big platinum coins.
Don't know if this is what Sanders is about, but nice that Kelton has his ear.
|>
It talks about banking and debt more than I would like and I either have it wrong or disagree. Certainly building bank reserves doesn't work, so direct crediting of citizen accounts or social spending is necessary. MMT is a fiscal policy more than a monetary
In this theory, sovereign government is not financially constrained in its ability to spend; it is argued that the government can afford to buy anything that is for sale in currency that it issues (there may be political constraints, like a debt ceiling law).
Back in 2009 I was saying at Thoma's "print til they make us stop" meaning print money until the dollar was no longer a safe haven and rich fucks were running to pesos or drachmas. This would have turned the global economy to boom conditions.
DeLong talks about risk-free assets, but underestimates the quantity needed by a factor or two.
Even giving it to banks would work with a couple hundred trillion dollars.
The "Gross World Product," according to Wikipedia, is around $77 trillion as of 2014, in 1990 dollars. I think at that point even the inflation hawks would be right.
I want a T-shirt:
"I survived 17% inflation."
I ain't scared.
I didn't click through every link, but it seems to me that I remember the sovereign citizen movement being much different 20 years ago. Back then, one of the big things was just to avoid paying as many taxes as possible, e.g. by surrendering your social security number and refusing to ever pay FICA and stuff. There was still plenty of magical thinking, but, pace 15.1, a lot of the propaganda was along the lines of "nobody who's used this argument has ever been found liable for [some tax thing or other]" -- i.e. "here is an argument that makes sense according to the conspiracy theory AND it will annoy/confuse/harass the court so much that they'll just drop the matter." They were still on about the gold fringed flag of the admiralty court and stuff, but it was more along the lines of "don't be tricked into thinking that this court has jurisdiction over you" rather than "fly your plane into an IRS building!"
hey Bob what do you think of this: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/02/michael-hudson-discusses-the-new-global-financial-cold-war.html
Anyone else put off by the abbreviation "sovcit" for sovereign citizen? I keep reading it as "Soviet citizen" especially since Russian abbreviations are formed that way.
Yes, I thought the same on sovcit. They need something more grandiloquent: The True Company of SOVEREIGN Puissant Individual Lords and Ladies, Esq. -- or something like that.
69: yes for exactly the same reason.
67. These days the real money to be made going on about gold fringes is selling your books and pamphlets to rubes.
69. I suspect they don't have a marketing and brand awareness department.
70. T. C. SPILL, Esquire sounds like a good name for a rapper.