Re: Friday WTFuckery

1

Does this story count as politics? I think probably since "alumni-elected faction on the board" is probably just code for "central PA Republican."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:33 AM
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All of it. The whole fucking thing. Me. Us. Everybody.

Pence's dining rule closely followed by his tie-breaking vote on a hateful anti-woman bill is particularly disturbing given that there is a decent chance of him becoming the Preznit.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:44 AM
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Onward to the priority of tax cuts for the underappreciated ubermensch of the top 1%.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:48 AM
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We need a word for the all-encompassing terminal gaslighting of how it is that the ultra-rich have come to be ultra-rich.

I asked Chaffetz if he was concerned about Trump reaping financial rewards from his presidency, but he just shrugged. "He's already rich," Chaffetz said. "He's very rich. I don't think that he ran for this office to line his pockets even more. I just don't see it like that."

Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:54 AM
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I'm slowly coming around to the belief that impeaching Trump or forcing him to resign is a very bad thing. Pence would be much more effective at uniting the party and he's got a coherent plan based on real facts, unlike Cheeto Benito who is careening from one disaster to the next. His populist streak might accidentally do something good. There's no hope for anything but slouching towards Gilead with Pence.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:58 AM
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Maybe Trump will destroy the Freedom Caucus, the Russia scandal will destroy Trump, and I'll walk out of the door to find a free pony plus a gift certificate to cover costs of stabling it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:03 AM
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Apparently the Pence not-safe-around-women-or-booze thing isn't new news. Which would have been nice to know in, say, October.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:03 AM
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Also the chart in 3 should be spread around as widely as possible.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:04 AM
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6: I read 'stabling' as 'stabbing.' Seems a little rough, you know.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:08 AM
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Stabbing a pony is basically free.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:08 AM
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Apparently Karen Pence's previous husband was involved in developing Cialis. Thread.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:27 AM
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But you stab a pony one time ...


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:28 AM
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He was the guy with the erection lasting more than four hours that caused all the warning labels.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:30 AM
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3, 8- People should more often point out that the HORRIBLE FINANCIAL CRASH GREAT RECESSION OMG NO BONUS EVAR AGAIN lowered the top 1%'s income to about the same as at peak of the dot com bubble.
Also this is just annual income, can you imagine how insane accumulated wealth looks?


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:32 AM
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can you imagine how insane accumulated wealth looks?

Yes.


Posted by: Scrooge McDuck | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:38 AM
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Last I checked, wealth did a lot worse than income for the 1% during the financial crisis. Though it has clearly recovered since then.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:55 AM
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If my 401k is anything to judge by, yes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:58 AM
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Royalty always insisted on you not being able to speak to them unless they spoke to you, right? Was there also a rule about not making eye contact or has Rex gone past the old prerogatives?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:59 AM
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Silver lining-ish. I just heard it mentioned that the death of Trumpcare implies the non-repeal of the Iran deal. Which is not super convincing given total irrelevance to the daily interests of Republican voters, or even primary voters. But I take my silver where I can get it. Would it be inappropriate of me to finish this bottle of wine on the same day of purchase?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:06 AM
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You don't want it to spoil, do you?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:07 AM
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If anyone else wants to vote, polls are closing real soon now.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:12 AM
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19.1 That's good news if true.
19.last Finish it Mossy. I'm on my 4th gin and tonic myself, or is it the 5th?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:14 AM
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Time and wine wait for no man, as it were.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:15 AM
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Ok, landslide. Goodbye wine.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:18 AM
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Is that a derail? Surely not. Anyway, apologies.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:19 AM
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Pence would be much more effective at uniting the party and he's got a coherent plan based on real facts, unlike Cheeto Benito who is careening from one disaster to the next.

This also concerns me. But I think he's also about 80% less likely to cause World War III. On balance, I'd take Pence, but I can totally see the argument not to.

Right now Pence's strategy seems to be to stay as far removed as he can from the Trump disaster, so he doesn't get mud on his shoes. And it seems to be working. That's a problem.

I'd like to figure out how to make him more unpopular before he takes office. Unfortunately, I think making fun of his goofy religious practices - fun as it may be - is probably counter-productive, as it only makes him stronger with his base.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:22 AM
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A nice nuclear winter might offset global warming.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:23 AM
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I think Pence is less reelectable.


Posted by: Heebie | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:24 AM
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28: I agree. He's just too stick-up-the-ass for the centrists.

26.2: OK, good point. Pence wouldn't have Bannon whispering in his ear to start a religious holy war with 1.4 billion Muslims. He'd almost certainly still suck on the issue, but Bannon actually *wants* a holy war and Trump apparently listens to him.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:31 AM
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Apparently the coal industry in the U.S. now employs fewer people than Arby's. I'm not sure which one makes better tasting products.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:34 AM
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Pence *is* a much smoother liar. But still his attempts at distancing himself from the Flynn stuff are laughably transparent and would be treated as such if our political discourse were not so utterly degraded.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:38 AM
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Was there also a rule about not making eye contact or has Rex gone past the old prerogatives?

Maybe? Where else does "a cat may look at a king" come from unless there was a rule that people couldn't?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:40 AM
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I never heard that one before.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:45 AM
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In many important ways, it makes sense to think of me as having recently dropped into the modern era from about 1910.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:49 AM
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Hmm, Ryan Lizza pointing out that Flynn's lawyer Robert Kelner was a strong NeverTrumper. (For instance from September: "No. Win or lose, aiding and abetting Trump is not a morally acceptable option.") Of course flexibility on these issues is a hallmark of Republicanism (and also even more so than re-tweeting, representing as counsel not endorsement in either direction). But still.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:49 AM
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LB is the human analog of the 11th edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:52 AM
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In the public domain. IYKWIMAITYD.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:54 AM
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32 is correct, as backed up, of course, by Cabin Pressure.

MARTIN: Just a simple inclination of the head from the neck, Arthur - that's enough.
ARTHUR: Are you sure? Doesn't sound very king-y.
MARTIN: Quite sure. I've been brushing up on protocol.
DOUGLAS: Of course you have.
MARTIN: Also, never look at the king directly.
DOUGLAS: Are you sure you're not confusing him with the sun?
MARTIN: And don't hold eye contact. Just - just glance up and look away.
DOUGLAS: Even if we're looking at him through smoked glass?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:55 AM
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31: Pence is known for being a smooth liar?


Posted by: Heebie | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:56 AM
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40

One of my favorite Chevy Chase lines was, "The eclipse is over. It's now safe to stare directly into the sun."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:56 AM
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But Chevy, that's where the fun is...


Posted by: Heebie | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:01 AM
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39: Yes. He lies so well, that I wonder if he's not actually lying, he's just the dumbest person that ever lived.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:01 AM
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41 was awful in a beautiful way.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:02 AM
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39: Smoother than some others.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:02 AM
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45

Or vice versa.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:03 AM
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So Trump is not getting impeached anyway (where is the constituency in the Republican party?) but if he does, make sure to use the phrase "caretaker President" about 500,000 times a day about Pence. "I don't think a caretaker administration should be making major changes to our ____ (tax system, foreign policy, etc etc)"


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:10 AM
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So Trump is not getting impeached anyway (where is the constituency in the Republican party?)

He's busy trying to create one. Threatening the Freedom Caucus was pretty stupid from a "these are the people who can vote on your impeachment" perspective.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:19 AM
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Private-public partnership-based infrastructure used to screw poor people? Quelle surprise.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:22 AM
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So Trump is not getting impeached anyway (where is the constituency in the Republican party?) but if he does, make sure to use the phrase "caretaker President" about 500,000 times a day about Pence. "I don't think a caretaker administration should be making major changes to our ____ (tax system, foreign policy, etc etc)"

By the same token, if the Dems are going to filibuster Gorsuch, they should be saying "As the Republicans said, a president shouldn't be able to nominate a Supreme Court justice in their last year in office."


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:22 AM
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50

I think Trump should pay Eric Cantor to stand outside Freedom Caucus member's houses with a boom box over his head. Unless Cantor has a high-paying lobbyist job, he probably has nothing better to do.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:23 AM
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49 is great.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:27 AM
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52

It is.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:28 AM
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53

In a moment of weakness I posted a comment on a political post on FB. Predictably, it was a terrible mistake.


Posted by: urple | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:40 AM
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54

The Guardian has a story about a monkey having sex with a deer, if you want to post something everybody can agree about.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:41 AM
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53. Apparently clickthrough from fb is much higher than clickthrough from other online places. I'm not posting much there, but more political posts than I used to, concise policy criticisms. I don't have much reach, but maybe the occasional shared post does something.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:49 AM
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Of course, now Pence can't go deer hunting unless his wife is with him.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 8:52 AM
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54 Pics or it didn't happen.

Just kidding. It probably happened.

A lot.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 9:04 AM
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Happened.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 9:07 AM
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Great. Now, when my ISP sells my browsing history, everyone will know that I clicked on the link for monkey-on-deer porn.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 9:24 AM
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Only soft core.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 9:25 AM
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Never mind 60. I just watched the video.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 9:32 AM
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62

Pervert.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 9:52 AM
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63

Yesterday I went with my mother's church to protest* outside ICE. Her church is a sanctuary church and they provided refuge for three months to an undocumented immigrant from El Salvador last fall when he was threatened with deportation and near certain death (his son was killed in El Salvador, and he most likely would be too). He's now trying to claim asylum, and has regular hearings with ICE, which we escorted him two.** About 25 people showed up and ICE blocked us from entering the building, but the pastor had called all the news stations so it was filmed and made the news on at least two local stations. At least two channels interviewed the man and the pastor afterwards.

It wasn't a whole lot, but it felt good to do something.

*By protest, I mean a bunch of middle aged white people in gortex standing around chatting and at one point praying.
**In November, ICE told him he could apply for a work permit, which cost over $1,000. He raised the money mostly through donations from the church. In January, ICE confiscated the work permit. He was hoping to get it back at this hearing, but instead ICE told him he'd have to apply for a new one, and repay the fee.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 3:59 PM
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two s/b to


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 4:00 PM
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65

I suppose it wouldn't have been funny if the old lady with the sword cane had gotten it through the TSA check and accidentally opened it on the plane, causing everyone to think it was a terrorist attack, and the pilot had heroically dived the plane straight into a farm field, killing three Holsteins. I suppose it wouldn't have been funny, but it sure would have been indicative of the times.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 4:51 PM
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(Reporting from the Garden of Thebes)


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 4:51 PM
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Really want a sword cane.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 4:55 PM
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A $19.99 sword cane is probably not a very good blade.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 4:58 PM
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Ah, no doubt you are perusing the wares of the redoubtable "BudK", king of the extremely shitty internet knife.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:25 PM
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Yes, I was. But I'm afraid if I find a $200 sword cane, I would get one bought from BudK for $20 and marked up.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:27 PM
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I don't see my getting enough use out of it for a $2,000 sword cane. Though I guess I could surprise myself.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:28 PM
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There's nothing on Etsy. Twee little shits.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:28 PM
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On the other hand, for $20 you can get a taxidermy duckling. I bet 100 of them would really make the living room pop.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:39 PM
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Between the sofa table and the shelves, there's probably not even room for 50. Need more shelves.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 5:41 PM
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26: Right now Pence's strategy seems to be to stay as far removed as he can from the Trump disaster, so he doesn't get mud on his shoes

Rachel Maddow (I know) insists that there's no way Pence can remain removed from the Trump disaster, given that he was in charge of the Trump transition team. Who were engaging in shenanigans during said transition.

I don't know if I buy it or not. And even if Pence doesn't remain above it all, next in line is Ryan. At this point I'm with togolosh in 5. But we'll see.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:13 PM
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Would sending a taxidermy duckling to the kid's soccer coaches say "thank you for volunteering your time" or "you better gets these kids a win before I send a horse"?

Asking for a friend.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 6:25 PM
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I don't know, its hard to find anything else for $19.99 that's as bad-ass as a sword-cane with a brass skull on the handle.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:36 PM
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Although the one with the dragons-head handle is also pretty sweet, especially if you are into dragons.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 7:38 PM
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"Between the sofa table and the shelves, there's probably not even room for 50. Need more shelves."

This is reminding me ineluctably of the "can you imagine a hundred otters" conversation.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 03-31-17 11:09 PM
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Between the sofa table and the shelves,
He something sought, and something found


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 04- 1-17 8:51 PM
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81

Five dollars, under the cushions!


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04- 1-17 9:57 PM
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Here's a WTF. I was never sure what to make of the whole Bernie Bro thing, because it never squared with my impression of Bernie supporters I actually knew. And now it turns out a lot of them were Russian bots.

I remember one time arguing with Sifu Tweety here about the implications of cyber warfare. My feeling was that it was overblown, and that the risk to infrastructure didn't expose as much strategic advantage as may have first appeared. He saw it as a bit more dangerous. But neither of us recognized the information warfare element of it.... we were worried about the security of power grids, when really it was the underpinnings of democracy we should have been concerned about.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 9:37 AM
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82: I admire it, in a way. The Russians secretly funded both the far left and the right. It's some crazy Illuminati shit come to life.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 10:08 AM
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82: Can I vent? I think "cyber warfare" is constantly used indiscriminately to describe at least three distinct things. Which are using software to gather intelligence (like the DNC hacks) using software to disseminate propaganda (the DNC leaks, berniebots) and using software to do actual physical damage (Stuxnet); and of those only the last is a totally novel form of warfare. Not actually directed at 82, but the world at large.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 11:15 AM
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That's my point, though. Everyone was worried about #3, but it turns out #1 and #2 can cause far more damage.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 12:51 PM
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85: Like I said, not really to you. Also, we don't yet know how bad #3 will get.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 1:10 PM
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Unless #3 goes nuclear, its hard to imagine a way to do more damage than to elect Donald Trump as President of the United States.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 1:16 PM
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Good point. But I don't think that's the kind of result one can achieve with any reliability.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 1:24 PM
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All of which anyway is beside my point, which is that "cyber" is a word abused to the point of meaninglessness, and we need new terms.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 1:26 PM
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On the political front, you all know by now that I've been fussed about GOP efforts to roll back or otherwise control/rewrite executive branch regulations. I've fretted about the REINS Act and other, related pending legislation.

An update: Congress has been able thus far to use the CRA (Congressional Review Act) to negate Obama regulations put into place in the last half of his last term. The window comes to an end now. Just an update.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 1:30 PM
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So we had to get very, very tough on cyber and cyber warfare. It is a huge problem. I have a son--he's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers. It's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe, it's hardly doable. But I will say, we are not doing the job we should be doing. But that's true throughout our whole governmental society. We have so many things that we have to do better, Lester. And certainly cyber is one of them.


Posted by: Short Fingers | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 1:41 PM
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You guys have seen the Trump as your Drunk Neighbor videos, right? I probably heard about them here. Number 3 is pretty good. Hand size mentioned.


Posted by: parsimon | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 1:50 PM
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89

There are military terms of art for attacking (CNA), defensive (CND), and exploitation-centric (CNE). The last is both recon and grabbing information, a la the DNC hack. They are collectively CNO: "Cyber Network Operations."


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 2:42 PM
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I went to a lecture over 20 years ago now, by a media studies prof. In which he talked a fair bit about the ways in which media could be manipulated to get the outcome nefarious actors wanted. And he wasn't talking about gross-level Stalinist airbrushing of history. One of the examples he gave was of using real-time video processing/CGI* to do subtle things like make people's voice sound slightly nasal, or give them a barely perceptible twitch, or a slightly wonky eye, or whatever. Not things that'd really show up, just things that, in the context of a ton of other stuff, would nudge things gently a percent here or a percent there.

He had other examples that were much more in line with the sort of things people have discussed recently in the Trump/Russia context.

* at the time this was not feasible, but obviously, Moore's law.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 3:28 PM
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The stuff that off-the-shelf Adobe products can now do to Photoshop someone's voice is pretty creepy. With a sufficient audio sample, you can put whatever words you want into their mouth. I'm still waiting for the first big scandal in which that gets used.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 4:10 PM
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93: Thanks.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 6:55 PM
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Why the fuck are Democrats supporting Gorsuch? What the fuck is wrong with them?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 9:18 PM
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They're in states with significant Republican majorities. And they suck.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 9:26 PM
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Why do they believe that voting for someone who will make it harder to vote for them in the next election will help them win re-election?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 10:25 PM
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82: "Twitter: you don't have to be a solipsist to use it but it sure helps!"


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 10:38 PM
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99: they suck.


Posted by: Von Wafer | Link to this comment | 04- 2-17 11:15 PM
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One of the examples he gave was of using real-time video processing/CGI* to do subtle things like make people's voice sound slightly nasal, or give them a barely perceptible twitch, or a slightly wonky eye, or whatever.

You barely even need CGI for this. Picking photos that make your subject look good or bad is an old newspaper trick, but there's one that I discovered by accident when I was learning video editing. We were practising by filming a mock press conference and editing together a news report, and when we watched the first cut everyone realised that the speaker at the press conference was coming across as incredibly untrustworthy. They weren't trying to be, and we couldn't work out why; it just seemed really obvious that he was lying.

Eventually we realised it was because, in our first cut, every time he stopped speaking the camera stayed on him for about half a second, then cut away - as though it were waiting for him to give a more satisfactory answer. We changed that and the report looked fine. But if you'd done that to a real press conference, everyone who saw the report would have been convinced there was something dodgy about the speaker.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04- 3-17 1:52 AM
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94: I also remember Neal Stephenson arguing, around the same time, that in the Hi-Def Future only the beautiful people would be elected to anything, because HD TV. Look how that worked out; at the moment the anglosphere is ruled by some of the most physically unattractive individuals it is possible to imagine.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 04- 3-17 2:30 AM
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103: in "Interface", right?

"at the moment the anglosphere is ruled by some of the most physically unattractive individuals it is possible to imagine."

Justin Trudeau?
Malcolm Turnbull in Australia is a sort of generic late-fifties man, but I wouldn't say he was repulsive.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04- 3-17 3:36 AM
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105

Trump! Tillerson! Johnson! Farage (not that he rules anything)!


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 04- 3-17 4:38 AM
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106

Three of that four are nowhere near the levers of power. Two of them are embarrassingly sidelined and impotent foreign ministers and the third isn't even an elected national politician.
Trump, I grant you. But even May is not repellent in appearance. She's a deeply unpleasant, grating, greedy, uncaring, incurious and self-centred human being, but she is in appearance just a generic UMC late-middle-aged English woman.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 04- 3-17 5:13 AM
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107

Some of us have higher standards.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 04- 3-17 6:39 AM
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106 is right on all counts. I had dinner in a posher than usual place outside York the other day, and there were two, maybe three women there who could have worked as doubles for May. Absolutely modal type.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 04- 4-17 6:39 AM
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95: On the plus side we can look forward to a new Tupac album every year until the sun goes out.


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 04- 4-17 3:01 PM
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