Re: I say Toranto, you say Torahnto

1

On the one hand, I'm all for calling people what they call themselves. On the other hand, I'm not about to start pronouncing "Guatemala" like somebody from Guatemala does because I feel just ridiculous. I blame Saturday Night Live.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 8:46 AM
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I'm also going to continue to pronounce the 'shire' in 'Worcestershire'.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 8:48 AM
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I think you should try your best within the bounds of your language's phonetics. I know people who get angry about the h in "Gandhi" going walkabout, and that's fine, but expecting an English speaker to get the phonemic aspiration right in unreasonable. Admittedly some names will get grandfathered in, but maybe someday we'll say meh-hi-ko for Mexico.

And it's Toranna.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 8:51 AM
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I will continue to leap down the throat of everybody who spells it "Pittsburg".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 8:55 AM
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A Russian professor told us a story about Khrushchev getting so fed up with how Eisenhower mispronounced his name, that he started calling him "Eisenwhore." This doesn't sound plausible to me, because I don't think Khrushchev knew that much English.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 8:55 AM
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It's universally accepted that the pronunciation of the name of a country in one language need bear no resemblance at all to its pronunciation in another, even if they're written in a similar or identical way. No one is arguing that we should say "Frongce" rather than "France". If Iranians call Iran "Ee-ran" in Farsi, that is irrelevant. If they call it "Ee-ran" in English, then that's different - though even then you could argue that Spicer is speaking a different dialect, in which "Eye-ran" is as correct as "nucular" or "y'all" or "I be doing this".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:04 AM
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Ivory Coast officially asked people to call them Cote d'Ivoire (aplogies for lack of accents) a while back.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:05 AM
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Y'all are letting me down. Deutschland and Germany are distinct words, not distinct spellings.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:06 AM
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8: they are both. "Aluminum" and "aluminium" are the same word with distinct spelling. "Row" and "row" are distinct words with the same spelling.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:07 AM
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I always like to say "Bundesrepublik" instead of "Germany". "Bunders" is a nice sound.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:09 AM
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"Row" and "row" are distinct words, but also don't forget "row".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:10 AM
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Rowsa.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:11 AM
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Anyway, I'm with ajay. I'm talking English not Farsi. And if one permits any compromise, where will it end? Are maps eventually to be adorned with 中國, Россия, 대한민국? பைத்தியம், நான் சொல்கிறேன்.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:12 AM
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9 goes some way to restoring the community's pedantry score, but I won't rest easy until someone tells me how google got that Tamil wrong.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:14 AM
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6: Yeah, fair, I'm being a little silly. Generally you should just do whatever's most respectful within the bounds of your own language, and what that means will differ case by case. And this particular case is overblown with purity politics.

13: Google Maps used to have an option to do it that way; in its current state it mostly has both but not always; no (simplified equivalent of) 中國 but Chinese cities have both characters and Pinyin. Provinces are Postal Pinyin.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:15 AM
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13 is right. Plus, I like to be able to tell people in the various American cities named Cairo that they are pronouncing the name of their own town wrong.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:15 AM
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Barry and I had a discussion on twitter over whether "cutter" or "cuh-taaaaaaaaaaaahr" was worse. (Barry objects to the less-objectively-wrong "cutter" for some reason known only to himself and his analyst). Basic problem being that actually the two syllables are very close to equally stressed and nearly no English word is pronounced that way.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:16 AM
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16 - to be fair, not many Americans pronounce al-qahira correctly.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:17 AM
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I agree with 6. When we speak in a given language, suddenly switching phonetic systems is jarring and workarounds are reasonable. At the same time, we have gotten more cosmopolitan over time, so over time more different phonetics might feel natural, and we could reasonably see standards shift closer to actuals.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:17 AM
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There was a woman in my freshman class who had done some sort of something with Nicaragua. Every time she said the damn word she switched to an exaggerated Spanish accent. It was excruciating. It's Nick-a-ragwa not Neek-ah-rah-goo-ah.

I'm in the camp that says the standard American English pronunciation is Eye-ran. I personally go with Ee-rahn but that's because I'm a pretentious asshole.


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:18 AM
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I say Ih-Ran, I think (ɪræ:n).


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:19 AM
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That used to kill me speaking Samoan. Equal stress is hard.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:20 AM
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The worst, of course, is people introducing non-native zh sounds apparently because it sounds more French and therefore more cosmopolitan: Beizhing, Azerbaizhan.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:20 AM
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I also agree with Ajay and MC. Countries have standardized or conventionalized names for other countries that may or may not bear some resemblance to the native term.

I think I say Ih-ran, with a short I a back A like father, but I don't think there's anything wrong with saying I-ran, either.

My name is really hard for English speakers to say properly, and pronounce it in a weird in-between way that doesn't conform to English phonology or the "correct" pronunciation. People get nervous about saying my name, but as long as people are making a good faith attempt, I don't care if their native phonology makes them say it really differently from how I say it or how it's "supposed" to be said, and I'd rather they say it in a way that's natural to them than attempt to say it like I do in some weird exaggerated way.

5

The Chinese word for socialism is shehuizhuyi, and a Chinese friend told me that the hui in the term sounds like some really vulgar Russian word, so there were some minor issues when the Russian and Chinese delegations got together.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:25 AM
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I like my way of pronouncing "Iran" because I like to think of the Flock of Seagulls song.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:26 AM
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and I pronounce it in an in-between way...


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:27 AM
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23: Heh, Wikipedia has the zh sound in the English IPA and the English j sound for the Azerbaijani. I think it's standard now. (Admittedly, I pronounce it that way, too. Never Beijing, though.)


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:28 AM
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25: So long as you don't justify it with McCain's parody rendition of "Barbara Ann."


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:30 AM
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In China people get very excited about learning the English terms for places when they speak English, to the point I have to correct my friends from calling Beijing Peking when they speak English. I've had people insist that Peking was the English way of saying the city. The English name of Peking University is still that, and Chinese people will correct me if I call it Beijing University.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:31 AM
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27: Yeah, I noticed that too. Wasn't there a period when you sometimes saw it written Azerbaidjan, presumably to combat the rising ʒ tide?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:32 AM
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29: I hear it increasingly referred to as Bei Da in spoken English, avoiding that altogether.

30: That makes me think of the cymbal company Zildjian, but that's apparently an Armenian name. I guess there's the additional problem that since [dj] is a weird combination in English speakers might think you have to say the [d] as a stop.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:35 AM
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29: I hear it increasingly referred to as Bei Da in spoken English, avoiding that altogether.

30: That makes me think of the cymbal company Zildjian, but that's apparently an Armenian name. I guess there's the additional problem that since [dj] is a weird combination in English speakers might think you have to say the [d] as a stop.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:35 AM
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D'oh.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:36 AM
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29: The Wade-Giles has stuck permanently to everywhere in Taiwan.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:36 AM
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While spending a month in Kazakhstan, my wife and I gave up on getting the pronunciation of the nation from a native speaker. There seemed to be at least four variables: Whether the native speaker was a native Russian or Kazakh speaker, and whether that person had learned English in the U.S. or British variant.

Also, almost all locations in Kazakhstan have different names in Russian and Kazakh, and several of the cities have a third name, no longer official but still sometimes used, from when Stalin renamed lot of places.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:42 AM
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If Iranians call Iran "Ee-ran" in Farsi, that is irrelevant.


Iranians call it Farsi in Farsi, in English we've always called it "Persian"

This is my hill. I will die here.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:45 AM
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36 Undermines ajay's entire argument btw.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:46 AM
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But here, have some more Tooze, this time on the MG42, audio and PowerPoint.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:47 AM
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Denmark is a lovely country but my experience learning how Danish words are pronounced was traumatic. Choice quote: "It's a goddamned consonant, damn it!"


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:48 AM
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(Barry objects to the less-objectively-wrong "cutter" for some reason known only to himself and his analyst).

How is objecting to pronouncing it"cutter" wrong? The only people who say it that way are Americans who've only ever heard the word pronounced on Fox News. It's completely wrong and grates.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:49 AM
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If Barry hadn't pwned me there I would have added value by breaking out the audio and ppt links for you, right here on this very page.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:51 AM
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Plus, I like to be able to tell people in the various American cities named Cairo that they are pronouncing the name of their own town wrong.

Wait.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:52 AM
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The worst, of course, is people introducing non-native zh sounds apparently because it sounds more French and therefore more cosmopolitan: Beizhing, Azerbaizhan.

Do I do this??? I don't know! Am I the worst?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:54 AM
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43: If you don't know, you may indeed do this by osmosis, but at most that would make you an innocent victim of the zh-izers.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:56 AM
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40: I used to say 'kuh-TAR" until I heard various more relevantly educated people say "cutter", with the second syllable barely there. How should I be saying it?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:57 AM
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Kah-TAR is fine.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:59 AM
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I say "Quatar".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:00 AM
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Or maybe not so hard a stress on the second syllable. But not "cutter"


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:00 AM
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48: Barry, would you say that the Trump Administration is suffering from ... Qatar Overload?


Posted by: Flippanter | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:03 AM
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Thanks. I was considering compromising by just obliquely referring to it as the Arabian Jutland, sure to offend all.

While looking around that area on Google Maps, I see that Bahrain also has ridiculous sand islands. They look like microscopic critters, or perhaps a boss stage of a shmup.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:04 AM
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Obviously, they just forgot the "u".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:06 AM
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23: I think "it apparently sounds more cosmopolitan" doesn't give people enough credit. "Pronounce foreign words as though they were in the language you took in high school" is probably a more accurate general heuristic for English-speakers than "pronounce foreign words as though they were English." (Thanks a lot, Great Vowel Shift!) It's just that the j/zh distinction is a place where that heuristic breaks down.


Posted by: Micah | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:17 AM
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52: Fair enough.

Also I wonder if it came together with the restoration of zh to borrowings like "garage".


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:23 AM
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Deutschland and Germany are distinct words, not distinct spellings.

So are Leghorn/Livorno and Rattisbon/Regensburg, but you'd get some odd looks if you used the old English version. What's the difference? I don't understand.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:38 AM
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I enjoy profligate pronunciation slapdashly mixing it up to the annoyance of various shifting groups because language is just fun and if you aren't having fun with language what is the point? I particularly cherish "yoga" with the "o" pronounced as in the "o" in the british pronunciation of "yoghurt". ha! cheers me up every time, has a jaunty jig to it.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:47 AM
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also, in french it is joyous to, once you've mastered the no stress thing, start to branch out into the particular cadences and stresses of e.g. lady who lunches from the 16th, bombastic president (de gaulle, mitterand, in their differing guises), young pretend tough, etc.


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:49 AM
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54: Etymologically distinct. The examples you give are cognates, Germany and Deutschland aren't. Of course neither necessarily maps onto spelling; I was just following Heebie's sloppiness* for ease of conversation.
*Yes, she is the worst.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:56 AM
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My recent trip to France left me feeling very good about my French. (Was there over a week, partly for touristy stuff but also to visit my aunt who's spending the year there, got back on June 4.) My previous three trips to France, I was just there as a tourist with Cassandane and/or family, so I'd have limited interactions with French people. I'd order drinks or try to check in at the hotel in French, the waiter or clerk would respond in English, I'd feel discouraged even though I knew it didn't actually mean my French was bad. But it turns out that traveling with a kid and living in a house stretches your vocabulary, and I did better than I thought.

This comes to mind because 56 reminded me of one time I was talking to my aunt's friend and swore a bit and she was surprised by it and I excused myself because I had learned French like a teen, but it's mostly just bragging.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:02 AM
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Further, French/Spanish café/café, cognate, orthographically identical, phonetically identical (if wiki gets both right). You see how all this totally kills the punchline.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:05 AM
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Carpet shopping often requires saying foreign placenames.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:35 AM
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Carpet shopping link fail


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:36 AM
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58: Kid confirmed yesterday evening I caused him excruciating embarrassment by enthusing at length in Fr to friends-acquaintances re new (and marvelous) book on 18c papier dominoté solely on grounds of weird subject matter, he had no problem with my fr. Being parent of teenager has its rewards!!!


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:36 AM
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Qatar Airways in flight announcements definitely say "cutter" rather than "catarrh". That is about my only interaction with the place apart from occasional appearances on Al Jazeera.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:37 AM
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63 I beg to differ. Will record said announcement on Friday.

I mean how y'all pronouncing "cutter" because I'm hearing it wrongly pronounced the way NY'ers pronounce "butter".


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:41 AM
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And that would be "budder"


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:46 AM
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Hrm, I was tapping it a little, but definitely kept it rhotic.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:48 AM
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Just re-upping 38 for ajay in case he missed it first time around.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 11:53 AM
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I bet ajay doesn't pronounce cutter anything even slightly like budder.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 12:02 PM
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64 - ah, yes, pronouncing the t as a "d" makes it even more objectively wrong than cutaaaaaaaaar. I was thinking of a more genteel sort of cutter.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 12:17 PM
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50 - iirc Bahrain and Qatar went to war in the last couple decades over a couple of tiny irrelevant sand islands.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 12:20 PM
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The two-people-separated-by-a-common-language boundary is apparently somewhere around Kittatinny Mountain. Maybe read it as a command, "Cut 'er!", instead of a description of a self-harming teenager.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 12:26 PM
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pronouncing the t as a "d" makes it even more objectively wrong

Sorry Mr. Sqatar!


Posted by: Todd | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 12:31 PM
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The zh for j thing is part of a longstanding and well-documented tendency for Anglophones to pronounce all foreign words as if they were French. Another part of this is accenting the final syllable; kuh-TAR is probably an example of this.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 1:07 PM
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So, in general I'm on board with the idea of pronouncing place names as if they were exonyms, but I don't understand the point of putting a spurious French "j" in "Beijing". Just go with the English j, it'll make everyone's lives easier and you'll be better off.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 1:07 PM
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Oh, pwned. Well then, if you do see a Chinese "zh", take revenge for Beijing and give it a good, hard "j". An injustice will be righted, and you'll be better off.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 1:12 PM
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I'm bothered that Lee went to Beijing last month and came back still pronouncing it wrong, though that's near the end of my list of complaints about her.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 1:14 PM
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64 is surprising because IIRC that is why I switched from saying "catarrh" to saying "catter".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 1:15 PM
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60: Carpets or anything at Ikea.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 1:55 PM
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"Nuts on Clark." A place to buy popcorn or a quote from testimony in a case of fraternity hazing?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 1:59 PM
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So when my kid's Iranian immigrant friend and her dad were talking about speaking English and Farsi, I should have gently corrected it to "Persian"? (Same for kid's first babysitter, a grandmother from Iran.) I figure if I'm not going to get in their face about it, it's beside the point to correct anyone else.

Anyway, none of this shit is intuitive. I often don't know what the standard American English pronunciations are of French loan words, so I have to ask. The REAL problem is people who get irate when you lack the requisite savoyard-frere.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 2:02 PM
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Traveling places is the worst. Except for being places.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 2:03 PM
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the standard American English pronunciation is Eye-ran

No, no, no, no.

Everyone say "Ghent" right now. It's a lot more fun if you make an attempt. As is Gouda. Referring to the city, only: it's just too pretentious to refer to the cheese, in English, with a Dutch (or Dutchish, in my case) g.

I say Koeln and Mainz, but do not use the same a in Colorado and the first a in Nevada.

I should write a rule book.

We went up to Lolo Pass today, and I noticed that the signage said Nimiiipuu, which is definitely a step forward.

The signage also quoted Meriwether Lewis calling camas 'qamas' and 'quamash' in the same journal entry.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 2:54 PM
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79 I was on the lookout for a Clark's Nutcracker today, but no luck.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 2:57 PM
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"Pays-bas" 's a bitch, ain't it?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 3:04 PM
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I had a case where the client was in IJmuiden. Folks there told me that one way to detect German spies during WWII was their inability to get the pronunciation right.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 3:30 PM
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No English speaker under any circumstances should, when speaking English, be expected to articulate either the Dutch g or the Welsh ll. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a monster.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 3:33 PM
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Just go with the English j

Eating jalapenos and dreaming about the fjords in Beijing.


Posted by: F | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 3:35 PM
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re: 68

No. Definitely not. Think* Malcolm Rifkind.

As in the audio clip here:

http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/text-only/scotland/edinburgh/

(under 'Open in your default media player')

* please don't be insulted ajay!


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 3:45 PM
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re: 86

I sort of get not doing the Dutch 'g' but a lot of UK English speakers will do the 'll' passably well.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 3:47 PM
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I wish I could say Koeln in a way that German speakers can understand. I've tried many times and always had to just say Cologne for them to have any idea what I was talking about.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 3:51 PM
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Gouda thunk it?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 4:04 PM
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Oops. Rude of me. I think I was thinking of the phoneme in isolation from its actual use in Wales.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 5:37 PM
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"Dessert hummus" is a thing you can buy in Nebraska. Brownie, Vanilla, or Snickerdoodle.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 7:24 PM
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I don't know why I'm doing this to myself but what on earth is it made of?


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 7:26 PM
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Chickpeas and pain and diabetes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 7:51 PM
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My one sister thinks giant cans of Foster's are drunky-looking.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 8:45 PM
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My family has various views about more than two beers.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 8:53 PM
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Strikingly uniform about taking a twelve of Molson to a church dinner though.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:07 PM
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In conclusion, having really big containers of beer fools hardly anybody.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:18 PM
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80.1 Unfortunately it's gotten to the point that people have forgotten that we've always had a perfectly good English word for it. I blame State and the CIA for propagating this in the first place; after all, the Shah spoke English.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 9:39 PM
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Dessert hummus confirmed also available in a fancyish Brooklyn grocery. Actually maybe it was the mere thought of snickerdoodle hummus that gave me that unending gastroenteritis.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:08 PM
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I just learned that when British people say "row" to mean "fight," they say it wrong. Which makes 11 wrong and drunk-watching Sherlock Holmes educational.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:10 PM
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Lincoln is just like Williamsburg. All hipsters and Big 10 football.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:12 PM
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Except that I've never been to Brooklyn, I'm perfectly qualified to compare the two.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:17 PM
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I keep reading it as desert hummus.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:38 PM
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105: Me too. It even makes more sense.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:40 PM
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The HyVee isn't constrained by your bourgeois notions of sense.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:43 PM
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I may not be sufficiently avant-garde for Nebraska, it's true.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:44 PM
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Germany is a purely theoretical construct. Saying that "Germany", "Deutschland", "Allemagne" and "Tuskland" (in Norwegian) all refer to the same place is like saying that "Utopia", "Land of Cockaigne", and "Big Rock Candy Mountain" all refer to the same place. Each culture has its own specific cultural ideas of a mythical land of Germans, and they name it according to their own traditions.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:45 PM
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110

Is there a Falafel House restaurant?


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:46 PM
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111

What about Ashkenaz?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:46 PM
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112

International House of Chickpeas


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:46 PM
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Here we just have Falafel King.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:47 PM
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114

And International House of Hotdogs.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-21-17 10:47 PM
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115

You're not in Guatemala now, Dr Hick.


Posted by: Keir | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 3:41 AM
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Yeah, a straightforward translation. Who'd a thunk it?


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 4:55 AM
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109. "Germany" should properly be used only for those parts of the country west of the Rhine.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 5:01 AM
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118

116 => 84


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 5:13 AM
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119

yeah, and this! come on, people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUIaFSbQ5nc

I have the opposite problem here in Italy - whether to pronounce English words like an Italian. If you want an India Pale Ale (which finally is sold here, thank you!) you'll only get it asking for an "eeepa", you know, how ipa would be pronounced as an Italian word. Lots of management ("maneh-ge-meant") words are borrowed here but with very distinctive sound.


Posted by: simulated annealing | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 5:50 AM
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Inglese italianato è un diavolo incarnato.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 6:04 AM
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121

I just learned that when British people say "row" to mean "fight," they say it wrong.

I think we say it wrong, too; we just hardly ever say it.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 6:16 AM
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Here we are, a dictionary entry untouched by the stenches of both the British and crowdsourcing.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 6:19 AM
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123

98 - you should convert to Serbian Orthodox or something. Rakia shots in the church basement after service.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 6:45 AM
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Each culture has its own specific cultural ideas of a mythical land of Germans, and they name it according to their own traditions.

Especially the Russians.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:42 AM
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I have the opposite problem here in Italy - whether to pronounce English words like an Italian. If you want an India Pale Ale (which finally is sold here, thank you!) you'll only get it asking for an "eeepa", you know, how ipa would be pronounced as an Italian word

How about "birra vera"?


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 9:09 AM
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Since we've taken the German "eu" (pronounced "oi") and pronounced it "ew," I propose we start calling the country Deutschland, but pronounce it "Dewchland." That'll make everybody happy.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 12:40 PM
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It was funny in Australia when I first said "fish fillet," pronounced the American way (more like the French on fillet), whereas they pronounce it like it's spelled (which I believe is also the standard British pronunciation?). Everyone looked at me like I was ridiculously pretentious over something you buy in a Fish n' Chips shop.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 12:43 PM
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They say "CHUM-lee".


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 12:51 PM
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I feel the same way about the British pronunciation of "croissant".


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 1:16 PM
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And garage.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 2:07 PM
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That's the opposite direction - less Frenchy rather than more.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 3:29 PM
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"Glacier," then.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 3:31 PM
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133

"Car hole" sadly failed to catch on.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 3:46 PM
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134

And it's Toranna.

That's how I pronounce it in casual, everyday speech. But if I were on the phone with a stranger, with a bureaucrat or some kind of govt official, say, I would say something more like "Torahnto."

It was funny in Australia when I first said "fish fillet," pronounced the American way (more like the French on fillet), whereas they pronounce it like it's spelled (which I believe is also the standard British pronunciation?). Everyone looked at me like I was ridiculously pretentious over something you buy in a Fish n' Chips shop.

As I've mentioned before, in parts of English Canada where there's a significant francophone population (including, e.g., Ottawa) there's a way of pronouncing French names and placenames that is not strictly French, but that is not quite along the lines of standard English pronunciation, either. It's an English pronunciation that acknowledges/gestures toward the French. If you're speaking -- in English, I mean -- of the St. Laurent Shopping Centre in Ottawa, for example, you don't pronounce the "t" in either St./Saint or Laurent; but, on the other hand, you don't roll the "r" in Laurent, either. Which is to say, you don't render the name in actual French, which might sound pretentious or affected; but you don't pronounce it in an entirely English manner, either, because that might smack of anti-French bigotry.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 4:40 PM
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Fowler's Modern English Usage used to have a whole page on how to pronounce French when speaking English. He argued that actually speaking proper French in the middle of an English discourse was an amazing technical feat, but would produce something that neither an English speaker who had learned French or a French native speaker would understand. Then he gave a full page of rules. I was pretty impressed. Now I have an excuse to say Pah-riss, not Pa-ree.


Posted by: Kaleberg | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 5:00 PM
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Koala invented fecal transplants. That is all.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 6:25 PM
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I say Taranto.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 6:41 PM
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138

I'm imagining spreadable halvah (HALL-vuh) suitable for frosting a simple nut cake. Where in Brooklyn?


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 7:23 PM
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139

I have a super femme and somewhat frivolous bleg:

I am spending 2 months in Europe, mainly Paris, Northern Italy, Baden Baden, and Prague (yeah, hard life, I know). I would like a pair of comfortable/sturdy black ballet flats that can easily dress up/dress down (they're going to be my most formal shoes, no plans for anything that really requires anything nicer). I've had an unsuccessful quest to find the platonic ballet flats I'm looking for, and right now I have a pair of very cheap ones from target that look ok and have no support but don't actively cause me blisters. Should I 1) go to Nordstrom's Rack and look for a pair of better ballet flats before I leave, or 2) take the Target ones, and then go shoe shopping somewhere there, probably Italy? I'm leaning heavily towards option 2, but would like to hear if there's any reason why (1) is a better idea. (Or I suppose (3), don't bring the Target ones at all, and then just buy the ballet flats).


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 7:27 PM
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platonic ballet flats

The opposite of "fuck me boots"?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 7:30 PM
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140

I was thinking more platonic ideal of ballet flats, but that works too.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 7:31 PM
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I just watched The Day of the Siege, about the lifting of the first siege of Vienna. It looks like they spent all their money on F. Murray Abraham and making sure the script was devoid of any possibility of anybody missing the point they were trying to make about Islam (subtitle: September Eleven 1683) and were stunned to learn they were supposed to film a recreation of one largest cavalry charges in history. There were like six guys on horses.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 7:39 PM
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139: We seek him here, we seek him there
Commandos seek him everywhere,
Is he in Tora Bora, or Baden-Baden?
That demmed elusive Usama bin Laden.


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:07 PM
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126: That is pretty much how my podmate pronounces the "Deutsche" in Deutsche Bank. Drives me up the wall. And she has a college degree!


Posted by: Natilo Paennim | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:11 PM
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139: Oh! I think I have the answer. You should do what I did, and find a discounted price on a pair of Gentle Souls Noa Star Ballet Flats in black suede, with a deerskin lining. This you will do by shopping online, of course.

Now, I'm now saying you will be saving a family of whitetail deer if you buy these shoes. But I am saying these shoes are ridiculously comfortable, and stylish enough for travel; and there are too many deer now, anyway, now that their natural predators have been killed off.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:23 PM
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Not saying, is what I meant.


Posted by: Just Plain Jane | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:24 PM
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134: A bit like that thing with some posh Brits where "restaurant" and "hotel" are pronounced as not-entirely-foreign-but-not-fully-domesticated French imports, so you don't pronounce the "t" in "restaurant" and you say "an hotel" without pronouncing the "h". Different rationale to the Canadian case (vis-a-vis interethnic and class relations), but a similar outcome.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:28 PM
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138: I believe it was Brooklyn Fare, 200 Schermerhorn. Not 100% certain. It's this, right, for anyone whose stomach can handle the clickthrough?


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:33 PM
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148

Eww.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:36 PM
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The name of the prime minister, for whom the centre is named, was always pronounced that way, although I never heard it rationalized before; too young I guess.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:39 PM
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The name of the prime minister, for whom the centre is named, was always pronounced that way, although I never heard it rationalized before; too young I guess.


Posted by: idp | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 8:39 PM
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re: shoes - check everlane, if they have what you are looking for the quality-price ratio will be highly favorable, my arches are too high for their flats but the mid heel version from them is ridiculously comfortable and very well made for the price and their oxfords and slip-ons are excellent and re-soleable (although not summer shoes for places with real summer as opposed to SF not that i am bitter or anything ha). you may like their sandals, not my thing but i bet the quality is great.

when you are in paris i highly recommend the monoprix at reamur-sebastopol for drugstore skin care and cosmetics, excellent selection of the usual suspects. and la librairie les guetteurs de vent in the 11eme isexcellent, relatively new and super congenial and great stock, could spend hours and hours there.

have a great time!!!


Posted by: dairy queen | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 9:05 PM
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152

Ooh those shoes are beautiful! No time to order before I go, but will keep them in mind for the future.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 11:04 PM
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Also thanks for the cosmetics suggestion.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-22-17 11:05 PM
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A bit like that thing with some posh Brits where "restaurant" and "hotel" are pronounced as not-entirely-foreign-but-not-fully-domesticated French imports, so you don't pronounce the "t" in "restaurant" and you say "an hotel" without pronouncing the "h".

Those are unrelated phenomena. The people who say "an hotel" also say "an historic".


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 2:03 AM
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The people who say "an hotel" also say "an historic".

You must know some incredibly old people. The last person I knew who did that was my slightly pretentious grandfather who fought in WWI.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 3:15 AM
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The one that used to get me was the pronunciation of Maryland on the BBC. I get that it was named after Queen Mary, but nobody who lives there says Mary Land. It's more like Merilend. Why does the English reporter living in DC have to use a different pronunciation?


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 4:12 AM
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Because Britain has the Merry/Marry/Mary distinction, and Maryland doesn't? Though Maryland should perhaps be easier to grasp than some, given the oddity of Marylebone.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 4:18 AM
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158: I think in New England we maintain 2 pronunciations for those 3 words, but the rest of the country only has one pronunciation. Still, that's one where I think it would be more respectful to use the local pronunciation.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 4:43 AM
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Still, that's one where I think it would be more respectful to use the local pronunciation.

But that takes us back to the Paris/Paree thing.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 5:05 AM
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155: you still get "an historic" on the BBC sometimes. I've never heard "an hotel" though.

And it doesn't seem to carry over to other words starting with H. You never hear people say "an halfway-decent meal" or "an harbourmaster" or "an horrible mistake".


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 5:24 AM
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I feel the same way about the British pronunciation of "croissant".

It's basically more or less the French pronunciation, no? How do Americans pronounce it?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 5:25 AM
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Crow-san-which.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 5:40 AM
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re: 139

You could check out Bat'a in Prague. Or will be plenty of places in Italy.

https://www.bata.cz/web/kategorie/web-katalog-cz-zeny-baleriny

re: 162

Crass-awnt, rather than k(r)wass-ohn.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 5:48 AM
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re: 164

The big Bat'a is at the bottom of Wenceslas Square, where it meets Na Příkopě, near Mustek underground. Very central, hard to miss.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 5:50 AM
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157; You can do a pretty good impression of a Marylander saying Maryland by mumbling "Marilyn."

139: Get inserts for the shitty flats and shop in Italy. Do you speak Italian?


Posted by: togolosh | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 6:16 AM
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I get that it was named after Queen Mary

Yeah, sure it was. Its not like a Catholic colony - next to "Virginia" - would have any other reason to name itself after someone named Mary, is there?

The queen's actual name was "Henrietta Maria," but I guess they didn't see fit to call it "Henriettaland."


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 7:38 AM
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As it happens, I'm going to be in Paris 2-10 July then Prague until the 18th, with my 16 year old. Brasserie/Hospoda opportunity?


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 8:22 AM
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Looking through old copies of The Daily Nebraskan, as one does, I'm struck by all the mentions of Spanier. Also, cheap liquor prices in the ads.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 8:39 AM
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I hear Americans writing or even saying "an historic" and I just don't know what's going on. Maybe they're thinking in Cockney.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 8:51 AM
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I used to be able to write clear, concise reports of completely boring things. Or maybe the editors fixed them.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 9:01 AM
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Also, Ben Nelson is mentioned a great deal.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 9:05 AM
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164

Thanks! I'll check it out.

166

Inserts are a good idea. I speak a very little bit of Italian, but my husband and MIL are fluent. (Lest you get too jealous, I will be spending my time in Italy with my crazy, dsyfunctional in-laws.)

168

Oh! I'm in Paris June 29th-July 3rd, and then in Prague from July 15th onward. I'm not sure how much free time I'll have in Paris (could maybe meet up on the night of the 2nd), but I could definitely meet up in Prague.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 11:05 AM
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I've always said "an historic," I wonder where I picked it up from


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 12:44 PM
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Barry,

Would it help if you live blogged your interactions, and we provided hilarious repartee to take your mind off the terribleness? We'll promise to only be funny and not get outraged.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 1:00 PM
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email linked. 16th or 17th sounds plausible.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 1:08 PM
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Wasn't it, long ago, refined rather than demotic to drop h's? And this persisted in the standardized pronunciations of a few words, like honor.

I think this persisted with "an historic" due to influence from book and essay titles, but it's stuffy speech indicator even in US standard, and even there I don't think anyone drops the h when it's not preceded by the indefinite article.

How do Americans pronounce it? (croissant)

First vowel a schwa, stress on the second syllable. kɹəˈsɑnt.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 1:44 PM
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174: It's a shibboleth in some (American) circles, particularly among historians.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 1:44 PM
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"An hotel" and "an historic" have always sounded right to me. I think I usually say them that way, but write "a".


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06-23-17 9:53 PM
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175 I may have to do that instead of Charley's great suggestion in the other thread. Yes, I'm jet-lagged, how could you tell?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 06-24-17 1:13 AM
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The queen's actual name was "Henrietta Maria," but I guess they didn't see fit to call it "Henriettaland."

Actually she was called Queen Mary in England while she was queen, so it makes sense. (I've no idea why she's retrospectively referred to as "Henrietta Maria", her name was Henriette Marie, as befitted the daughter of Henri IV and sister of Louis XIII.)


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06-24-17 6:48 AM
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155: I think it's actually "an hotel" and "an historic" that are instances of distinct phenomena. "Historic" isn't derived via French, while according to Wikipedia: The word hotel is derived from the French hôtel ... The French spelling, with the circumflex, was also used in English, but is now rare.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06-24-17 7:11 AM
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182 was my doing.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 06-24-17 7:15 AM
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Henriettaland sounds like a lot of clucking.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 06-24-17 7:21 AM
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