did someone muck with the backend here

Re: Kneeling

1

And I should say, the owner himself got into it with the trainer, albeit politely.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-24-17 8:32 PM
horizontal rule
2

I really dislike that strain of liberal reaction that wants to make taking a knee a protest of Donald Trump. Yeah, I know he has a way of making everything be about him all the time but it's a protest of police brutality and the systemic racism that erases black lives.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-24-17 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
3

I really dislike that strain of liberal reaction that wants to make taking a knee a protest of Donald Trump. Yeah, I know he has a way of making everything be about him all the time but it's a protest of police brutality and the systemic racism that erases black lives.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-24-17 8:44 PM
horizontal rule
4

Donald Trump is less popular than police brutality. Why not try for a win?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-17 8:57 PM
horizontal rule
5

It was Trump who brought up the topic and prompted the latest round of this, so while it's a bigger issue than him personally he's certainly involved.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-24-17 9:00 PM
horizontal rule
6

I wonder if Trump isn't still irked enough about the whole USFL thing to be deliberately trying to destroy the NFL.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-24-17 9:18 PM
horizontal rule
7

I don't get the narrated cartoon. I should think a self-respecting liberal wanker would be fine with someone stomping over the Confederate flag.

Or is it that they suddenly pivot to saying the Confederate flag is an insult to the US one?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-24-17 9:28 PM
horizontal rule
8

The crossfit fuckwit (pseud, anyone?) is saying that stomping on a US flag and flying a confederate one are both expressive acts, so why the difference in response?

Answer's easy, of course: you have the legal right to do both, and other people have the legal right to disagree with the point of view expressed and, if they want, to disagree to the extent of saying that you're a bad person for choosing to exercise that right and that you shouldn't have exercised it. There's nothing inconsistent or illiberal about disagreeing with the one act of expression and not the other.

And you can even, as a consistent liberal, disagree with some expression (e.g. extreme racism) to the extent of urging other people (e.g. employers, customers, polite society) to refuse to associate themselves with it. What is inconsistent (as even some people in the media are pointing out) is to go on and on about how only left-wingers are censorious like that, and then go and try to get someone fired.

(It's reasonable for the liberal wanker to bring up the First Amendment in relation to the US flag case and not the other, because only in the first case has anyone ever proposed laws against the expressive act.)


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 1:47 AM
horizontal rule
9

8 to 7

(Not meaning to imply that flying a confederate flag isn't extreme racism, btw)


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 1:58 AM
horizontal rule
10

The crossfit fuckwit (pseud, anyone?)

The crossfuck fitwit?


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 5:37 AM
horizontal rule
11

Just fitwit seems good.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 5:48 AM
horizontal rule
12

So, it looks like NASCAR might handle things differently than the NFL. Which is probably what would happen if the NFL didn't need black players or fans to make millions of dollars.

Also, Trump is really working to support my thesis that Trump is trying to start a race war.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 5:57 AM
horizontal rule
13

Also, to support everybody else's thesis about Trump not being very good at what he tries to do. But still.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:01 AM
horizontal rule
14

He's come closer to starting one than either Charlie Mason or Timothy McVeigh.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:11 AM
horizontal rule
15

Race war in the streets, nuclear war 'cos he won't read his briefing sheets.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:35 AM
horizontal rule
16

This is one of times I feel like a foreigner that needs to have a native explain things to me. How can people possibly be so upset about getting on one knee during the national anthem? It seems to me just about l the most respectful possible way to protest


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:45 AM
horizontal rule
17

16: Also need a native to help you with your English.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:46 AM
horizontal rule
18

fucking xfit

I'm really losing track of all these new subgenres.


Posted by: One of Many | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:47 AM
horizontal rule
19

Reminding a certain type of white people that others have had a different experience in life makes those people sad. If they get sad, they vote for Trump. They have no control over this.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:49 AM
horizontal rule
20

For the price of a cup of coffee every day, you can reassure a sheltered white person.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:50 AM
horizontal rule
21

16

Because a lot of Americans fundamentally see black people as inferior to them. Any sign of insubordination, no matter how tiny or even respectful, is a black person assuming they are on some level equal to white Americans. Freedom is for white people, black people are tolerated only insofar as they serve whites with a happy, positive attitude. Football players exist to give themselves brain damage for the entertainment of white people. White people don't want to think of them as actual humans.


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:51 AM
horizontal rule
22

The slightly more sophisticated white person version is what Moby wrote. Those are white people who think racism is ended and love to talk about how great Ben Carson and Clarence Thomas are, and why can't more black people be like them?


Posted by: Buttercup | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:53 AM
horizontal rule
23

I'm known for my careful characterizations of slightly sophisticated white peoples.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:55 AM
horizontal rule
24

Should I be forced into engagement on this subject with the likes of the crossfuck fitwit, I would go with something like:

- This isn't remotely about the flag anyway, this is about *kneeling* -- which is a non-standard but not disrespectful gesture (one kneels to pray, after all) -- during the national anthem;

- It's not a protest against flag or anthem, but rather against police brutality, which takes advantage of the players' being put on display during this bit of patriotic theatre;

- Obligatory displays of patriotism at public events are creepy as fuck, why not just make everyone pray to white Jesus while you're at it;

- Football players weren't trotted out for the anthem until the US Military started paying the NFL to do this anyway, so they started it, nyah, nyah, nyah;

- I thought Tim Tebow was a huge wanker for writing all that Jesus stuff on his face but I didn't get all butthurt about it;

- So maybe if you're super mad about this you should reconsider all that moaning you do about political correctness, and finally,

- Shut up, dotard.


Posted by: Swope FM | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:05 AM
horizontal rule
25

why not just make everyone pray to white Jesus while you're at it


Kansas agrees with you on that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:07 AM
horizontal rule
26

My actual response was much, much shorter than 18, because he was already knee-deep in an unproductive argument. All I said was, "Jesus christ, [fuckwit], this cartoon is super fucking offensive."


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:14 AM
horizontal rule
27

By 18 I meant 24. Silly.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:19 AM
horizontal rule
28

One of the shitheads who I never would have had to hear about if Trump hadn't won criticized Stevie Wonder for not being grateful. Who is he supposed to be thanking? God? The implication is usually, "Be grateful our white-majority society is letting you be so rich because we know that's not the normal way it is for black people." You never hear anyone telling the gang of rich (white) assholes in Trump's cabinet that they need to be grateful for being so rich.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:32 AM
horizontal rule
29

John Legend stands up for the kneelers. I'm sure that will resolve the controversy.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/trials_and_error/2017/09/john_legend_on_why_the_nfl_protests_are_patriotic.html

Seriously, it's pretty good, but I wonder if the response from Trumpkins is that they hate all those other protests he mentions too.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:37 AM
horizontal rule
30

The symbolism here has gotten very confusing. I mean, 21 is what's really going on - Black people doing anything other than what is currently being demanded is treated as insubordination and reacted to with outrage - but the combination of the anthem, the flag, standing, kneeling, linking hands, etc. has all gotten very muddy.

I am tempted to go stage a nice flag-burning just so my position is clear.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:39 AM
horizontal rule
31

I have confirmed with a sports fan friend that the kneeling is intended as a feature of nonparticipation - as in "take a knee", time-out - rather than submission/obeisance.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:41 AM
horizontal rule
32

Also, Kaepernick started it out just sitting on the bench, not kneeling, I believe.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 7:44 AM
horizontal rule
33

And a vet friend suggested kneeling as that would be more respctful.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
34

And a vet friend suggested kneeling as that would be more respctful.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
35

One knee though not two


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:06 AM
horizontal rule
36

Kneeling isn't something USians traditionally do for flag or anthem though.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:10 AM
horizontal rule
37

(Have enough people watched the new Star Trek for it to merit a thread? Would love to chatter thereon...)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:12 AM
horizontal rule
38

Oh God, not yet. Nobody can talk about it until I watch it! I have a gub.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:26 AM
horizontal rule
39

What Walt said.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:28 AM
horizontal rule
40

I wonder if Trump expected the outcome he got? It seemed pretty obvious it would be the outcome. (Players tend to support each other, and NFL owners and the league are very unlikely to fire, suspend or otherwise be mean to their players when the result would be losing tons of money. Brief suspension for one player? Sure. Suspending or firing lots of actual stars? Not so much.)

So Trump is either stupider than I imagined or he's back to playing 8-dimensional chess. Maybe he's just trying to heighten the contradictions? He's pretty good at that. Somebody suggested this buries the concussion thing (especially the Aaron Hernandez news) for a while, which helps the league. Trump's hardcore supporters will continue to support him, of course.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:31 AM
horizontal rule
41

In that case, I will just note that although CBS are using it to draw people into their shitty streaming service, they offer a 7-day free trial and the first 2 episodes (really one big pilot ep) are up now; and end threadjack.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:31 AM
horizontal rule
42

There's another Star Trek tv series? Oy!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:41 AM
horizontal rule
43

40: I really don't think Trump thinks that far ahead. He knew that the audience would go crazy for it.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:46 AM
horizontal rule
44

To boldly keep going where no one has gone before, borne forward ceaselessly into the future.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:47 AM
horizontal rule
45

40: I don't think he gives a damn. He successfully stirred up another shitstorm, everybody's talking about him, he's got another ego boost and as a bonus reminded his core followers why they voted for him; by comparison what's happening on the ground (either in the stadiums or in Puerto Rico) barely registers AFAICS.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:48 AM
horizontal rule
46

45BS43.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:48 AM
horizontal rule
47

I have been impressed with how Trump really is unifying people. It's not surprising that black radicals aren't happy with the president, but the nfl, the boy scouts, and the ceo of wal-mart all agree with them.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:51 AM
horizontal rule
48

I'm going to try to thread the needle - support the players protest, and oppose both Trump and the NFL. This activism involves 1) retweeting and 2)continuing to not watch football.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:52 AM
horizontal rule
49

Do I get virtue points for already not being watching football or tweeting?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 10:03 AM
horizontal rule
50

The NFL really is in a bad spot. I don't see that there's a position they can take that doesn't make at least a big chunk of their audience extremely angry.

Given that it's a terrible sport that causes brain damage, I don't care, but they're really stuck.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 10:07 AM
horizontal rule
51

The first time they played the national anthem during a big game. (1918, Chicago, boosting flagged attendance.)


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 10:11 AM
horizontal rule
52

It's not a protest against flag or anthem, but rather against police brutality, which takes advantage of the players' being put on display during this bit of patriotic theatre;

I think it's more than this. It's saying (for Kaepernick and those of a more radical bent) that police brutality is an outgrowth of the basic structure of race relations the US. For those of a less radical bent, it's saying that police brutality is "America falling short of its ideals". By kneeling silently, the players are refraining from participating in a ritual affirmation of pride in being a USian and putting a focus on the victims of police brutality. They're withholding their patriotic pride (or expressing pride as dissent). It's natural for people for whom being a proud USian is central to their self-conception to be offended by that. But the offense to the basis of that self-conception is part of the point.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 10:12 AM
horizontal rule
53

Right -- it's Langston Hughes saying "(America never was America to me.)"


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 10:14 AM
horizontal rule
54

50: I think that's what's so interesting about this. Because I don't think the average Trump-voting football fan has any idea that the NFL depends on people who aren't like him. The commercials during games are for cheap beer, pick-ups, and low-grade meat products. Trump is assuring him that Trump won the popular vote and that Ben Carson speaks for some significant proportion of black people. That the NFL won't fire players over taking a knee is probably going to be seen as some kind of insult from the NFL to people like him instead of the NFL running the numbers and figuring out that it can't make money if the black people boycott.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 11:15 AM
horizontal rule
55

You said it in 19: Reminding a certain type of white people that others have had a different experience in life makes those people sad.

It doesn't just make them sad, they seem to have a hard time believing it's true at all.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 11:22 AM
horizontal rule
56

Do I repeat myself? I contain multitudes. Very tedious multitudes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 11:27 AM
horizontal rule
57

Anyway, my theory doesn't assume very high levels of self-awareness on my part or theirs.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 11:35 AM
horizontal rule
58

Other than the news networks, Entertainment Inc. in the U.S. has continually bet against Trump's bigotry.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 11:47 AM
horizontal rule
59

Until this whole thing blew up, I'd had no idea that Trump was a key player in the USFL debacle back in the 80s. I guess there's been bad blood between Trump and the NFL for a long time.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:13 PM
horizontal rule
60

I really don't think Trump thinks that far ahead. He knew that the audience would go crazy for it.

Among my friends and colleagues, I have been shopping around the Natural Selection Theory of Trump. (I have probably posted it here, too.)

It goes like this: Trump is in no sense shrewd, not even in the sense of playing to his base. He is his base, and says things that he himself finds amusing or interesting or wise.

The social and political environment -- and especially the media environment -- created Trump in the same sense that natural selection created, say, an elephant's trunk. The elephant itself is not a meaningful player in this process -- just something that natural selection acted upon.

You can see this with Sarah Palin. The environment of this country really wanted her to be something big, and if she possessed the minimal functionality that Trump has -- plus the Y chromosome that Trump has -- we might now be talking about President Palin.

The media -- with a boost from the Electoral College and other factors -- created Trump by killing off everything that was not-Trump. There was no clever design behind Trump denigrating John McCain's service to his country or Trump bragging about grabbing pussy or Trump calling Jeb Bush "low energy" or whatever. He's just an ignorant asshole, and there are powerful tendencies in this country (again, the media really is at the center of this) that work against things that are insufficiently ignorant and assholish.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:19 PM
horizontal rule
61

60.1: It's usually just girl scout cookies here.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:24 PM
horizontal rule
62

A nice piece from Eric Reid on why he kneels and how he and Kaepernick came up with the stance as opposed to sitting.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:40 PM
horizontal rule
63

61: That can be a nuisance, but I'm still the winner for annoying in-office pitches.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:49 PM
horizontal rule
64

"We're all sold of Tagalongs."

"Then why are you here bothering me. Take your green sash and go strangle somebody with the good shit."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:51 PM
horizontal rule
65

I agree with 60 generally. I'd add that millions of people agree with the stupid racist shit the guy says, and millions more like the frisson, or the annoyance of their betters, that comes with him saying it.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:53 PM
horizontal rule
66

60 I think you've articulated that here before, at least in parts. I'll buy it.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:53 PM
horizontal rule
67

That is, I blame the media, but much of the media is just selling soap.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 12:58 PM
horizontal rule
68

UOJim linked this on twitter it's pretty good. https://www.everydayshouldbesaturday.com/platform/amp/2016/9/2/12726546/buffalo


Posted by: roger the cabin boy | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 1:04 PM
horizontal rule
69

Looks like the Cowboys had a game tonight rather than yesterday, and their owner took a knee with the rest of the team (as well as the Cardinals and their own owner opposite on the same field).

Is this going to be the new tradition?


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 5:47 PM
horizontal rule
70

Monday Night Football has been a tradition for years.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 5:48 PM
horizontal rule
71

The esteemed Mr. G/l/m/n astutely notes this is how cack-handed Trump is, that even these owners now feel obliged to take part in these protests for business reasons.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 5:59 PM
horizontal rule
72

||

I don't know what thread this belongs in, but, man, watching Graham and Cassidy debate Bernie and the Michigan Senator is sickening. Graham is so gross. Klobuchar is not articulate, and I have no idea what she supports or why I'm supposed to agree with her

|>


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:51 PM
horizontal rule
73

and their owner took a knee with the rest of the team

And then they all stood up for the anthem, because the fucking Cowboys.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 6:56 PM
horizontal rule
74

68 I'm up there several times a year. The wife got a pretty good bear picture at the Bison Range last week. The author was a little confused, though: these ain't buffalo skulls.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 8:50 PM
horizontal rule
75

(Speaking of which, I just put the pic in the pool.)


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
76

My five year old nephew informs me that those are antlers, not horns. Antlers are shed; horns aren't.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-25-17 11:31 PM
horizontal rule
77

He has a list, but it's not laminated yet.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 5:12 AM
horizontal rule
78

Where you put your antlers is your business.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 5:35 AM
horizontal rule
79

73: Yeah, I missed that. Otoh, some fans somewhere apparently booed kneeling even when it wasn't during the anthem, so even though they're rapidly anodynizing it, a message is still coming across.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 5:54 AM
horizontal rule
80

OT: Do actual humans use "OOO" for "Out of the office" or am I working with a robot?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:17 AM
horizontal rule
81

The Outlook robots I've met give you a little popup message when you enter the malingerer in the "to" field.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:52 AM
horizontal rule
82

80: Maybe an object oriented ontologist?


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:53 AM
horizontal rule
83

object-oriented ontology


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:54 AM
horizontal rule
84

That's what I get for typing each letter instead of using auto-complete.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:56 AM
horizontal rule
85

Object-Oriented Pwnage.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:56 AM
horizontal rule
86

OT: Do actual humans use "OOO" for "Out of the office" or am I working with a robot?

Maybe a MOBA player? "OOM" is pretty common for "out of mana".


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:21 AM
horizontal rule
87

They aren't stuck in the desert. Why not just go to the store and buy regular bread?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:23 AM
horizontal rule
88

I do see people use OOTO for out of the office, but not often because in America vacation time is limited.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:30 AM
horizontal rule
89

The person I got the message from was a European.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:32 AM
horizontal rule
90

About to see Metropolis with live accompaniment from the Arrakis Philharmonic Orchestra. I splurged on a balcony seat this time because the last time for The Cabinet of Dr Caligari I chose my usual cinephile front and center seat and all I could see was the conductor's ass.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:02 AM
horizontal rule
91

Metropolis sucks. Revolutionary effects in the service of idiocy. The 2001 of its day. I'd rather watch a conductor's ass than see it again.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:08 AM
horizontal rule
92

Ooh, nice. I did the live accompaniment thing for Nosferatu.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:08 AM
horizontal rule
93

Both awesome. Fight me Mossy.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:11 AM
horizontal rule
94

Both awesome. Fight me Mossy.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:11 AM
horizontal rule
95

Do actual humans use "OOOOOOOOOOeeeeeeeeOOOOOOOOOOeeeeeeeeeOOOOOOO" for "Out of the office" or am I working with a robot banshee?


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:11 AM
horizontal rule
96

OOO is pretty standard at this workplace, either in calendar entries (so nobody tries to schedule meetings while you're not there) or in email to your team or something reporting that you won't be in for whatever reason. "OOO Tue 9/26 EOM" for the full effect.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:13 AM
horizontal rule
97

Good god Barry. Explain to me why either of those movies doesn't suck.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:16 AM
horizontal rule
98

Watching computers kill white people is always fun.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:22 AM
horizontal rule
99

Both among the greatest films ever made. Though Barry Lyndon is my favorite Kubrick and M my favorite Lang.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:24 AM
horizontal rule
100

Dr. Strangelove is superior. The question is, what is the worst Kubrick that doesn't have Tom Cruise in it?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:28 AM
horizontal rule
101

You're not explaining. To clarify, I'm not accepting historical significance as constituting a "good" film.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:28 AM
horizontal rule
102

100: A Clockwork Orange, without a doubt.

If only he'd made it in 1989 rather than 1969, he could have had Tom Cruise in it. There's an interesting thought.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:35 AM
horizontal rule
103

Dammit, now I have the trailer for Top Gun as directed by Werner Herzog playing in my head.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:35 AM
horizontal rule
104

103: Is that a thing?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:38 AM
horizontal rule
105

If it isn't, don't tell me.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:51 AM
horizontal rule
106

104: Ajay's head? A few people have met him and can probably confirm. Lack of a head seems like the kind of thing that would show up in liveblogging.


Posted by: Thorn | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:52 AM
horizontal rule
107

Apropos Metropolis I've been looking at old Galaxy mags on archive.org and found a small-ad from 1953. Their columnist Willy Ley is looking to sell a full run of Weird Tales, Planet Stories, Authentic and other mags. Property of Fritz Lang who's returning to Germany. (Doesn't say whether West or East)


Posted by: Dave Heasman | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:00 AM
horizontal rule
108

107 is great (as is 103).


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 11:02 AM
horizontal rule
109

Bill Russell

A picture surfaced on social media showing Boston Celtics legend and Basketball Hall of Famer Bill Russell kneeling ...

Around Russell's neck is the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award presented in the United States. Russell received the award in 2011.

Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 11:36 AM
horizontal rule
110

That was great, Mossy notwithstanding.
as is 107.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 12:51 PM
horizontal rule
111

I refuse to explain why 2001 and Metropolis are great until Mossy watches every Tarkovsky film.


Posted by: Criminally Bulgur | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 1:30 PM
horizontal rule
112

Not sure what Mossy has against Metropolis but there is so much to love about it. Those incredible Art Deco/Expressionist sets, the robot Maria, her erotic dance, the leering lecherous men, her evil wink, Rotwang the original mad scientist with the hair and the cyborg hand and all the gestures and everything. What's not to love?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 1:31 PM
horizontal rule
113

OT: With 79 votes counted, Luther Strange is ahead in Alabama's race for the bottom.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 5:11 PM
horizontal rule
114

It's now 292 to 174, advantage Strange. Maybe I should find a site that counts quicker or doesn't put up the count until they get more.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 5:18 PM
horizontal rule
115

351 to 233 now. I'm starting to think various stereotypes of mental speed might be true.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 5:21 PM
horizontal rule
116

Moore is catching up. 931 to 897 now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 5:25 PM
horizontal rule
117

The percentage of precincts reporting no longer rounds to zero.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 5:29 PM
horizontal rule
118

It doesn't look so good for Strange now that the number of precincts reporting is into triple digits.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 6:04 PM
horizontal rule
119

According to the Washington Post, this is a battle for the soul of the GOP. Before tomorrow, we'll know if it's "Hey, you got your kleptocracy in my theocracy" or the reverse.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 6:12 PM
horizontal rule
120

According to the NYT Moore is the winner.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 6:49 PM
horizontal rule
121

It's a good thing nobody listened to my projection based on 79 votes counted.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 6:51 PM
horizontal rule
122

From a technical standpoint, I think M is my favorite Lang film. But I think Fury is the most powerful and captures some of what still drives some of the worst of the US.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 6:57 PM
horizontal rule
123

112: What's not to love? The fucking idiocy. Every character is an idiot. Maria gathering the children about her to drown on the statue when there's a stairwell five metres behind her. And the idiot hero emerges from that exact stairwell, in the same fucking shot, to show her the stairwell, in the place where she lives and he doesn't. The cack-handed morality tale. If you can show it's actually a brilliant parody of cack-handed morality tales, then I could buy it. The original mad scientist, yes, the original everything. Like I said, revolutionary effects (which hold up a lot better than 2001's, btw), but none of that makes it actually good. Fury is brilliant, yes, except where the newsreel footage shows multiple camera angles when we know there was only the one crew.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:44 PM
horizontal rule
124

To be clear, I'm sincere Fury is brilliant. The newsreel thing is kind of meta nitpicking, but the inclusion of the newsreel in the first place is totally fucking meta, so Lang can hardly complain about the nitpicking.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:47 PM
horizontal rule
125

"cack-handed" is a term I'm going to resolve to use more often. I'm not going to see Metropolis both because 123 makes a convincing argument and because I already saw a Whit Stillman movie with almost exactly the same name.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 7:47 PM
horizontal rule
126

I'll agree about the morality tale, but only that. It's fucking wonderful to look at. And that kind of continuity ranks fairly low for what I desire from film unless it's completely jarring and I find those continuity issues with Metropolis to be niggling at best, I'm just far too absorbed in the film.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:11 PM
horizontal rule
127

Fury is brilliant.

Also Moore, fucking hell.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:12 PM
horizontal rule
128

And the effects in 2001 are fucking brilliant and still hold up. You want dated? Try CGI from 10 years ago. I much prefer models and practical effects. Douglas Trumbull is a genius, I suppose you hate on Silent Running too?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:14 PM
horizontal rule
129

Haven't seen Silent Running. 2001 effects were brilliant for their time but have dated badly. Wholly agreed on the CGI. 2001 is painful to watch. Massive extended shots of nothing but dated effects and music. Time pitilessly reveals the original to be nothing but a showpiece for the FX industry of the day. The only good thing in 2001 is the HAL storyline, which has nothing whatever to do with the rest of the film. Extract that as a shor film and you have something very good, maybe great. As is, you have a shambolic nonsensical anthology.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:27 PM
horizontal rule
130

Some of the crap from the Matrix sequels looked like shit when they first came out.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:30 PM
horizontal rule
131

Mostly the fight scenes with 600 Agent Smiths. (Agents Smith?)


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:36 PM
horizontal rule
132

129 is just so wrong. The long extended shots give one a sense of expansiveness in timw and space. I'm a big fan of "slow cinema" in general and giving one a sense of time dilation is one of the things that cinema does best. How do you feel about Tarkovsky?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:45 PM
horizontal rule
133

-w, +e


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:45 PM
horizontal rule
134

I can't say I liked Metropolis when I watched it years ago, but I think it's been restored again since then so I should probably give it another try. I didn't hate it, though.

I often need to build up a lot of patience and then cut out distractions to watch silent films. But some of them I like quite a lot. If I specialized in obsessively watching a particular period of film it would probably be early sound, though.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:48 PM
horizontal rule
135

I've just started watching 2010 and the opening conversation has I think more words than in all of 2001. This is not necessarily a good thing. I've seen 2001 enough times now that I enjoy it as visual background.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:52 PM
horizontal rule
136

"sloe cinema"?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:54 PM
horizontal rule
137

Sloe gin cinema


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:55 PM
horizontal rule
138

Most of what I know about 2001 comes from parodies of it. I've never seen more than snippets of it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 8:58 PM
horizontal rule
139

I don't know if I could ever bring myself to watch Solaris again. I really like The Mirror, but in a similar way to how I now like 2001, except I have to pay more attention if I want to read the subtitles.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:03 PM
horizontal rule
140

Seeing it projected on 70mm was a cinema-going highlight for me.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:04 PM
horizontal rule
141

140 re 2001.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:05 PM
horizontal rule
142

On the one hand, I'm am not at all fond of slow, ponderous films. On the other hand, after three Batmans, two Spidermans, and an Ironman, several years ago I decided that comic book-based movies were to be avoided as a class. If I see eventually see Wonder Woman, it's only for prurient reasons.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:06 PM
horizontal rule
143

140: That's a pretty small screen. I think the screens here are at least 5 meters.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:07 PM
horizontal rule
144

I should probably go to sleep.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:09 PM
horizontal rule
145

FA, I saw the restored Metropolis and you aren't missing anything. Moby has had the best possible 2001 experience. The FX shots aren't expansive, they're just models and Strauss. And it goes on for 10 minutes. Then some product placement. Then more models and Strauss. Kubrick, I want those 2 hours back.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:20 PM
horizontal rule
146

Haven't seen Tarkovsky. Saw the running time on Stalker, ha ha fuck you. I've been burned by Tolstoy already, not getting conned by another Russian. Slow cinema: don't know what you mean exactly, but I'm not opposed in principle. I love Soderbergh's Solaris, frex. Superficially very similar to 2001, but it actually has characters and plot and reasons to care. Likewise Duncan-Jones's Moon.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:27 PM
horizontal rule
147

The whole outside the ship to shutdown of HAL sequence is really fantastic. I don't know if it's "slow" cinema like some of the rest but it's very patient and restrained, without the kind of extra signaling you get in lots of movies from music or dialogue that might as well be replaced by all caps messages superimposed on the screen saying "THIS IS TENSE WE ARE AT A DRAMATIC MOMENT PAY ATTENTION". That's just about the only part of 2001


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:27 PM
horizontal rule
148

FA was overcome by Kubrick boredom and fell asleep mid-comment. I rest my case.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:30 PM
horizontal rule
149

I liked the man-apes. The way the snarl at each other while their huddling in a cave at night. Man, that's us.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:31 PM
horizontal rule
150

they're!


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:31 PM
horizontal rule
151

I suspect you'd like Ivan's Childhood, Mossy. I think that's the only other one I've seen aside from what I've mentioned above. Wait, I've also seen Tarkovsky's adaptation of Hemingway's "The Killers" and maybe I've seen The Steamroller and the Violin.

Mosfilm has put a ton of movies up on Youtube, many with closed captioning in English.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:32 PM
horizontal rule
152

Missing bracket ate the end of 147, which should have ended with:

where I'll stop and really watch.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:34 PM
horizontal rule
153

Almost as damning as falling asleep.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:36 PM
horizontal rule
154

Stalker is the best. I can't believe I had the opportunity to see it on the big screen in Arrakis just a few days ago (that makes 3 Tarkovsky films I've seen here on the big screen including The Mirror and Solaris).

Soderbergh's Solaris was decidedly meh.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:38 PM
horizontal rule
155

I'll try Ivan's Childhood, unless fa is trolling me like Barry did with War of the Worlds.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:42 PM
horizontal rule
156

I should add to what I said above that the reason it would be difficult for me to watch [Tarkovsky's] Solaris again isn't because I didn't like it but because I thought it was so emotionally draining.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:43 PM
horizontal rule
157

What? Did I recommend War of the Worlds? Spielberg?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:44 PM
horizontal rule
158

155: I could be wrong, but I'm not trolling.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:44 PM
horizontal rule
159

Ivan's Childhood is excellent.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:46 PM
horizontal rule
160

You trolled me. I was liveblogging it, said it sucked, you were like, "It gets better!", I livewatched the whole thing. Fucking terrible.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:47 PM
horizontal rule
161

I think I was mostly encouraging you to stay tuned for when the annoying teenage son gets killed which was at least somewhat satisfying. I didn't say it was good.
I saw a take that said it was one of the best 9/11 movies.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:50 PM
horizontal rule
162

Weasel words, troll.
United 93 is the best 9/11 movie. WOTW is so far below that standard it isn't even in the same sport much less the same league.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 9:56 PM
horizontal rule
163

I'm not a Spielberg fan so I can't see recommending it but I did find that scene satisfying because he was such an annoying little shit.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:00 PM
horizontal rule
164

It was satisfying! But the little shit turns up alive anyway.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:02 PM
horizontal rule
165

Did he? Oh fuck now I'll probably have to watch it again.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:03 PM
horizontal rule
166

Mossy, what do you think of Koyaanisqatsi?


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:07 PM
horizontal rule
167

Spielberg is the worst.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:08 PM
horizontal rule
168

Hands of cack.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:09 PM
horizontal rule
169

Here.
http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_15677.html
465 et seq.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:09 PM
horizontal rule
170

166: I think I'm not going to watch it.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:10 PM
horizontal rule
171

169 I was right, that was totally in response to your question in 465.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:19 PM
horizontal rule
172

And see my 521 and 526 in that thread.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:22 PM
horizontal rule
173

Yes. I see I imputed to you trollery aforethought that in fact was absent.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:27 PM
horizontal rule
174

I still want to re-watch Duel if someone would put it in front of my face for free.


Posted by: fake accent | Link to this comment | 09-26-17 10:36 PM
horizontal rule
175

Isn't Ivan's Childhood just a WW2 propaganda movie? My impression after watching it is that it would have been completely forgotten if it didn't have the Tarkovsky name on it.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 2:28 AM
horizontal rule
176

175 Quite the opposite of being a propaganda film. It also one the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival and was recognized at the time by a lot of leading filmmakers and critics. It's a genuinely great film.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 3:12 AM
horizontal rule
177

A movie can be great and a WW2 propaganda film. Well, Casablanca managed it, at least.

I Googled it, and I was surprised that Tarkovsky intended it as an anti-war film -- I guess Truffaut's dictim strikes again. The Germans are cartoon villains. Ivan is an action-movie superhero. Sure, war is bad, and children having to become soldiers is bad, but it's all the Germans' fault.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 4:02 AM
horizontal rule
178

What I want to know about movies is why, in a world of 7 billion people, nobody can make decent parody movies anymore? Where is the Airplane! for our children?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:03 AM
horizontal rule
179

The world quietly ended in 2004, and we're in an afterlife where we get only An American Carol and Scary Movie spinoffs. Hell is the absence of God.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:14 AM
horizontal rule
180

Sister Gloria was right.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:16 AM
horizontal rule
181

OT: It turns out that being raised in an environment of anti-government hatred, false heroism, and toxic masculinity has a hidden downside.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:18 AM
horizontal rule
182

Also, that poor guy in Utah died. The one the nurse was dragged away from by officer There Will Be Blood.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:20 AM
horizontal rule
183

129. I now understand Mossy's dislike of 2001: it is possibly due to not actually having any idea what the overarching plot is.* Yes, it's slow (you should have seen it before Kubrick was forced to shorten it and add titles and stuff -- it was about 15-20 minutes longer), but it does actually have a plot. The "HAL sequence" is key to it, of course, in addition to being the most conventionally tense and action-filled part.

* It helps a lot to have read Clarke's novelization.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:40 AM
horizontal rule
184

I read the novelization of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Before Amazon, life was really horrible for people in small towns who liked to read.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:44 AM
horizontal rule
185

-one
+won


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:47 AM
horizontal rule
186

183 plot is one of the things I care the least about in cinema.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:49 AM
horizontal rule
187

185 to 176


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 5:50 AM
horizontal rule
188

OT: The only defense against a bad man with a gun is a very clumsy man with a gun.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 6:23 AM
horizontal rule
189

Re: parodies:

Black Dynamite was superior to two of three Naked Guns, and that was 2009.


Posted by: foolishmortal | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 6:48 AM
horizontal rule
190

I will try to see that then. Two of the three Naked Guns were passable.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 09-27-17 6:50 AM
horizontal rule