I haven't been to the ND in a very long time, and way back when was annoyed by annoying tourists acting annoying while a mass was in progress. I write, though, to note that I was in Reims much more recently, and found the effect compelling, despite the WWI destruction and subsequent reconstruction.
It wasn't me. I wasn't even there.
More seriously, I guess the only good news is that i could have been worse.
Stupid keyboard.
I guess it's too late to apprentice to a master stone mason. It sounds like it's a profession that will be in demand for a while.
You have to be in the pocket of Big Stone.
It's been a rough year for Our Lady. First that heartbreaking basketball game and now this.
When I was searching for news about the fire yesterday, one of the stories that came up on a generic search for "notre dame" was about Paul Ryan getting a job.
You have to be in the pocket of Big Stone.
Samuel Pepys, of course, kept his Big Stone in his pocket.
And subsequently had it mounted in gold for use as a paperweight. It was about the size of a tennis ball (real, not lawn, but still).
7: Worse and worse.
On the plus side the building can be repaired, and Ryan is just a visiting lecturer.
|| OK, I know we're nowhere near 40 comments in, but speaking of government vanity projects getting torched, this decision came out this morning. Nice vindication, I'm sure, for the lawyers involved in this. |>
||
Rentia van Tonder, Head of Power at Standard Bank|>
As I was saying on the old thread-
Some have expressed hope that detailed 3D maps of Notre Dame created in recent years by academics such the late US art historian Andrew Tallon, who used laser scanners to create a model of the building accurate to within 5mm, could help - as could similar near-perfect computer models generated for video games such as Assassin's Creed Unity, which is set in Paris.
I need to start learning French again, at least at the Duolingo-on-the-work-laptop level of dedication.
I never knew you were a stonemason.
Let me be the first to suggest they rebuild with cob.
I was a bit puzzled over the Spath thing, not over the rightness of the decision, just the motivation, because I envisioned DHS immigration judge as something of a shit job. But on research, the base salary is in the higher range of Air Force Colonel salaries, and maxes significantly higher. On top of job satisfaction for the kind of person who would want to work for Jeff Sessions.
Oops, and he applied in 2015. Still.
I don't want to throw stones while living in a glass house here, because I've also lit a fire inside a building accidentally while doing repair work, but I figure people are more careful when it isn't a barn
It'll probably never come out, but I would be fascinated to know exactly how it started. It must have gotten big, fast, because it was the middle of the day on a workday on an active construction site -- this probably wasn't a smouldering rag that was unattended for long enough for the timbers to catch. Paint fumes blowing up? Welding?
Shredding the letters from a park ranger's ex, and setting them on fire both cathartically and cathedralically?
End of day. About 19:00 local.
17. What's truly priceless is that the replacement judge had the same problem.
Paint fumes blowing up? Welding?
Unauthorized end-of-shift smoke break? That seems like a very French thing to do.
Racist. They knocked off at three.
Apparently all the rose windows and the medieval organ are unharmed. Also I think worth celebrating, no-one killed.
Did they save enough of it to keep the +10 happiness bonus?
@ltdla has news and analysis, in French. To 20, apparently the protocols for renovation safety (number of fire detectors and coordination) were only sufficient for worker safety rather than for building preservation-- reading between the lines of what's written, installing a denser network of fire detectors would have probably required many fewer visitors while work was done, and also been more expensive.
British commenters write that Westminster has roving fire inspectors and frequent small blazes that are suppressed.
The mayor of Paris has released 50M that had been help up.
You can't spell "Notre Dame" without 'm'.
Tell me why I shouldn't fire you, without using the letter 'e'.
They knocked off at three.
Also a very French thing to do.
When I was a kid in Chicagoland, I thought the hunchback of Notre Dame rang the bells at the University of Notre Dame. And even once I found out about the church in France, I thought it was somehow related to the university in South Bend.
32: Well, I'm not giving you a raise, then, either.
The people I did work had the same policy.
You probably used the letter 'e'.
Instead of "accomplishments" I decided to list examples of how The Simpsons went downhill since, and because, Phil Hartman died.
Breaking: teo has confirmed the cathedral standpipe has survived unharmed.
Understanding other people is overrated anyway.
|| Ok, this is a smart commentary on that DC Circuit decision. https://www.lawfareblog.com/its-time-admit-military-commissions-have-failed He's absolutely right that the DC Circuit reversing the convictions of the 9/11 plotters is going to be (a) inevitable and (b) ugly. |>
When I was a kid in Chicagoland, I thought the hunchback of Notre Dame rang the bells at the University of Notre Dame
I know Americans pronounce the American university Noter Dayme, rather than Nottruh Dahm, but do they pronounce the Paris cathedral the same way???
The alternative being of course thermonuclear war. Tragic but necessary.
I'm not proud of myself, but I just checked, and I pronounce the cathedral halfway wrong: Notruh Dayme. I'd probably say it right if I were the second person in a conversation to say it.
What if the first person said it the wrong way?
If they said it completely wrong (Noter Dayme), I'd probably react all the way to Notruh Dahm. If they matched my default, I would too.
I think I'll start pronouncing it like it's a Spanish word.
But, the pronunciations of the two things are different enough in American English that it's not easy for me to remember the words are the same.
Fortunately the Cathedral and the University are named after the same person. This clearly reduces confusion, though not mispronunciation. There are other examples of this, of course.
Cairo ("Kay-ro"), IL vs. Cairo, Egypt. Canton ("Cant-un"), Ohio vs. Canton, China. China stepped up and renamed theirs "Guangzhou" to avoid confusion, though probably heightening mispronunciation. Thanks, China! When will Egypt do the right thing? When will Paris do the right thing?
Once that's done we can rectify the spelling of all those silly "-sters" in MA: Worcester, aka Wooster, Leominster, aka "Lemon-ster."
Cairo, Nebraska is pronounced like the one in Illinois. Maybe Egypt is just wrong.
|| "Compound" meaning something made of things that are combined - like, say, a chemical compound, or compound interest - has nothing etymologically to do with "compound" meaning a cluster of buildings. The former is Latin from "componere", the latter Malay, from "kampung".
Maybe the Romans borrowed from the Malay originally.
I'm sure some Malaysian nationalist is working on the book right now. ("Malays wear sarong; Romans wore togas. SO SIMILAR LAH.")
Leominster, aka "Lemon-ster."
Leominster in England is Lemster. FYI.
Names of places in England and New England that have the same spelling and aren't pronounced as spelled and have different pronunciations. That'd be a fun on in geography trivia.
There is a Boston in Lincolnshire but it's pronounced "Bon".
There's also, as Buchan fans will know, a town called Lamancha in the Borders. Whether named after the place in Spain, or as some sort of Don Quixote tribute, or a complete coincidence, I do not know.
Borders are are where you where you go marching. Duh.
68: The German(!) Wikipedia gives its Gaelic as "Rath Mhanach." Unusual to see an l/r substitution that far west.
Occam's Razor indicates indisputably that the place in question was founded by shipwrecked survivors of the Armada.
Supposedly, that's why my Irish family has dark hair.
Most Irish people have dark hair. It's singled out as a beautiful feature in the Fenian Cycle ffs.
Spain didn't even exist, is the point.
68, 70: The local estate had been called Grange of Romanno, but was changed, by Alexander Forrester Cochrane who acquired the Estate in 1736.
Per this site. Not sure if he just reverted to a an already established local name or something else.
I was surprised to notice people - ok, recorded bus announcements, but confirmed by Wikipedia - pronounce London's "Lewisham" with a "sh" sound. In Maine, they pronounce "Topsham" with a decent regard for the word-boundary ("topsum").
My parents pronounce it Not[french r] Dahm, which is annoying, as it isn't in Paree. I'm similarly annoyed by people who say fuh(I don't go around saying chåo miàn), but the jury is still out on that.
78. OTOH Mashan in North Yorkshire pron. Massum.
We have localish shibboleths North Versailles (Ver-SAILS) and Dubois (DEW-boys). Can never remember how to pronounce Bellefonte, PA.
82: Not that this would affect Yorkshire, but to confuse things further in Irish and Gaelic "sh" is always an English h sound, while "s" is often an English sh.
In Kentucky, they have a tremendously American pronunciation of Versailles.
I recently learned that Natchitoches (in Louisiana) is pronounced more or less to rhyme with "succotash." I did not check on the corresponding local pronunciation of Nacogdoches. The global system of placename shibboleths always makes me incredibly grumpy. It's the worst of all possible worlds that attempt to harmonize orality and literacy.
Synecdoches, Texas: 4 hours of Charlie Kaufman and Richard Linklater collaborating, no one gets out alive
I recently learned that Natchitoches (in Louisiana) is pronounced more or less to rhyme with "succotash." I did not check on the corresponding local pronunciation of Nacogdoches.
Don't know if there's more than one, but I was in a Nacodoches last fall, and it's pronounced sensibly.
The highlight of Northeast Corridor Amtrak service is the conductor announcing the list of upcoming stops: NEWark, New Jersey, three more, then newARK, Delaware. I never heard them get it wrong.
I had no idea. The Delaware city is New-Ark, like what Noah bought after he sank his first boat?
Yeah. Some people have no faith.
Yes. That's kind of my whole thing.
91: Whereas the highlight of the New Jersey Transit Northeast Corridor line is that the last two stops are Newark Penn Station and New York Penn Station. The conductors do their best to make the distinction clear.
There is a third called Newark city not 25 miles from me, but I have no idea how it's pronounced.
97: That sounds like a difficult task. They should name the New Jersey one after a different Quaker.
A good one of these in Virginia is Buchanan, which is pronounced buck-CAN-non. And there are actually two Buchanans. One is a county; the other is a town. But the town of Buchanan is not located in the County of Buchanan but rather in the also wonderfully pronounced Botetourt (BOT-uh-tot) County.
They should name the New Jersey one after a different Quaker.
Maybe Nixon.
I'm sure Trump would be all over that. He should put Roger Stone in charge of Amtrak.
103 to 101. I don't know how Trump and Stone feel about oatmeal.
This is not a place name, but a local pronunciation of an individual name. But in Pittsburgh, if something's named after Andrew Carnegie, it's pronounced the way he did when he was alive: Car-neggy. In NYC, if you're discussing Carnegie Hall, or one of the Carnegie Libraries? It's Car-nuh-ghee.
We're doing it idiosyncratically. If the rich fucker wanted his name pronounced correctly, he should have donated money to a city who cared.
Not that I'm calling Pittsburgh weakly compliant or anything. But I'm not not saying that, either.
Anyone else spent much time in Buena Vista, Colorado? Byoonie, to the locals.
My brother-in-law used to work in St.Ingbert. Aka Dingbat.
As I understand it the Cornish city of St. Austell is pronounced Snozzle.
I still say "Carnegie Library" the New York way. I think because the people who say it the Pittsburgh way mostly just talk about libraries by specific locations.
How they got a whole city inside a pastry, I'll never know.
They fold up the buildings very carefully and erect them all once inside with a pull of a single rope. Very cool.
the last two stops are Newark Penn Station and New York Penn Station
Not when the train isn't express; then it stops in Secaucus Junction (SEE-caucus).
78 I was surprised to notice people - ok, recorded bus announcements, but confirmed by Wikipedia - pronounce London's "Lewisham" with a "sh" sound. In Maine, they pronounce "Topsham" with a decent regard for the word-boundary ("topsum").
I was surprised the first time I visited to Brandeis to find out the town it's in (Waltham, MA) is pronounced WALL-THAM. (It's a spondee, I think, more or less.)
I am really skeptical about the Newark in 98. Sure, I've seen the road signs, but from what I can discern it can't be much bigger than a parking lot. Unless the bulk of it is under the bay?
I remember an ex correcting me when I was a teenager and saying "half-hazard" for haphazard -- they thought I was trying to say "half-assed" and getting it strangely wrong.
There's a tradition in my dad's family that the proper pronunciation of Pueblo, Colorado is Pee-eblo. I don't think I've ever heard anyone outside the family pronounce it that way, though.
Pierre, South Dakota, is the hardest city's name to say in front of someone who lives there. If you say 'peer', they tell you that you are wrong. If you say it like the French name, they tell you that you are wrong. Then they'll talk about how they can run marathons and are in much better shape than you even though you were in the first grade together.
You're better off just arguing that Sioux Falls should be the capital.
100: Pennsylvania has a Waynesburg, a Waynesboro, and a town just called Wayne, none of which are in or near Wayne County. Nor does Bradford County contain Bradford, PA.
112: The university beat that out of me mighty quickly. On the other hand, I have to expend actual mental effort on Carnegie Hall jokes.
121: Maybe you come from a long line of trolls. (Whose legacy you've forsaken.)
the proper pronunciation of Pueblo, Colorado is Pee-eblo
In my family, we talk about Fellows Balls, Vermont.
Further to s-sh confusions upthread, in Polish sz is pronounced sh, whereas in Hungarian sz is pronounced s while s is pronounced sh. I guess it's good that at present there are countries in between the two, and that those tend to use diacritical marks.
Just looking at a map of the area around Szombathely (as one does) I see Gyöngyönsfalu, Vasasszonyfa, Táplánszenthereszt, Vasszécseny, Meggyeskovácsi (which I translate as Cherry-Croat, and then decide I don't really want to know), Csehimindszent, and Ostffyasszonyfa, which turns ount not to have a typo.
Unlike some people we could name.
Irish and Gaelic "sh" is always an English h sound, while "s" is often an English sh.
Indeed, as in Seumas and Siobhan. A lot of people have problems getting to grips with those.
I will now, since you told me to look down.
116. "Walth-um." How else would it be pronounced? MA has lots more riches in the realm of weird town name pronunciations. Somerville is (locally) Sum-vul, Medford is Meffud, Leicester is Lester, Berlin is BER-lin, Gloucester is Gloster, Concord is Conk-ERD, Haverhill is Haive-rul, and so on. When my wife was new to MA, she asked a gas station attendant "How do I get to Wor-cest-er from here?" He said, "I'll tell you if promise to pronounce it Wooster from now on." (By the way, the "oo" in Wooster is unstressed, so it's not like "rooster" but rather like umm, no other word I can think of offhand.)
118. Certainly Newark, DE exists. I've been there and survived the experience. (Or were you referring to the mysterious "third one"?)
Nesowadnehunk is "sow-dehunk". But central Maine has pretty different, even by New England standards.
133: A bunch of those are artifacts of locals' accents though. You wouldn't say,, "It's pronounced 'Ruhveea.'"
Pierre, South Dakota, is the hardest city's name to say in front of someone who lives there. If you say 'peer', they tell you that you are wrong. If you say it like the French name, they tell you that you are wrong. Then they'll talk about how they can run marathons and are in much better shape than you even though you were in the first grade together.
Some names just can't be pronounced on their own. Louisville and Norfolk for example. You have to say them in a sentence. This happens all the time:
- I can't figure out how to say "Norfolk". It's not "Nor-folk" but I keep saying it as "Nor-fuck".
- That is the correct way. "Nor-fuck". It sounds weird just out there on its own. But the "fuck" is unaccented so it sounds OK in a sentence.
There's a town "Boerne" near here, which is pronounced "Bernie".
In my accent the folk in Norfolk is actually a schwa /fək/ where fuck is /fʌk/.
100: Pennsylvania has a Waynesburg, a Waynesboro, and a town just called Wayne, none of which are in or near Wayne County.
Also Mifflinburg in Union County, Mifflintown and Mifflin both in Juniata County, and Mifflinville in Columbia County. There is also a Mifflin County which is a few miles north of Mifflintown and a few miles west of Mifflinburg. West Mifflin is in Allegheny County at least a hundred miles west of Mifflin. Governor Mifflin High School is in Berks County, nowhere near any of them. Fort Mifflin is in Philadelphia (this one was named while Mifflin was still alive and still a governor and ex-general, so fair enough).
You didn't go to first grade with me.
Inherent in a schwa is that it's unaccented, right? So weird things happen when you try to sound out a word and emphasize every phoneme to do it. When you're trying to sound out a word that has a schwa in it, it turns into a ʌ. I think.
Berks County is my favorite county name. I want to get a job there so I can say "I'm working for Berks."
West Mifflin is where the city buses go to sleep.