did someone muck with the backend here

Re: Good Rancher.

1

I read the Foothill Agrarian, a shepherd and UC extension guy. He's studying large guardian dogs for loss prevention.

In a non-psycho version of this, he says that the LGDs imprint on the specific group they're raised with (their flock, not just any flock of sheep) and he does, indeed, put his puppies out with the flock EVEN THOUGH there are cold nights and I personally would like to snuggle them all. But I'm pretty sure he also socializes his dogs (LGDs and the herders) for people.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 2:54 PM
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You can imprint dogs on a Flock of Seagulls.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 2:58 PM
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You shouldn't do that, they were a really overrated band.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 3:01 PM
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But dogs like to run, run so far away.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 3:09 PM
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I can't figure out how to riff at all on this one.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 3:19 PM
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You couldn't get a way?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 3:34 PM
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I would have thought it was impossible to train dogs adequately without humanizing them. But my mental picture of herding dogs is the Border Collie, with the whole intricate training regime. But Britain doesn't have big predators anymore, and is also a different country on a different continent, so.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 4:15 PM
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It's just off the continent and overly proud of it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 4:25 PM
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7: the confusion is that "sheepdog" means two different things: a smallish, fast, highly trained intelligent dog that helps the shepherd herd sheep, and a huge dog that scares off wolves and similar predators. In Britain we only have (and need) the first one.


Posted by: Ajay | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 4:25 PM
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I was also surprised there are Peruvian shepherds in Idaho, but I guess I shouldn't have been.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 4:42 PM
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11

They had to get them from somewhere once the Basques stopped coming over.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 5:03 PM
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12

That is an interesting article. Thanks.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 5:07 PM
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13

11: Tell me more?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 5:14 PM
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Mossy, I didn't get to the previous article you linked in time, so I'll double the compliment: really enjoyed your last two posts.

I don't understand how anyone can resist petting and picking up those adorable puppies! Also, people suck. Again, always. I don't understand not making a small investment in socialization and basic veterinary care for a working dog (no rabies vaccine?!).


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 5:19 PM
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Thanks for compliments. I too was surprised at ranchers contributing to a population of "bigger than coyote" feral dogs with rabies.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 5:28 PM
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(no rabies vaccine?!)

They're worried about the mercury.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 5:50 PM
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I don't see any mention of the dogs, really: https://www.goodranchers.com/


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 6:27 PM
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16: I laughed.


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 6:36 PM
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13: A bunch of them came to the western US initially for mining gold and silver and a lot of them turned to ranching. There were Basque ranching operations all over the Great Basin. So you get OG farmboys in ID, NV, etc with Basque surnames.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Cenarrusa

Similarly, there was a big Cornish influx into Butte MT. Up there they for real still have events like the "Great Pasty Throwdown".

https://www.ncat.org/great-pasty-throwdown-set-for-june-8/


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 6:39 PM
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"Great Pasty Throwdown"

It's at a strip bar now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 6:41 PM
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21

I'm a little surprised I didn't remark for TFA about the Basque museum in Boise. I always eat at the Basque Block when I'm there, which isn't all that often, admittedly.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 7:07 PM
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22

Basque sheepherding in the Sierra is also pretty famous. There are remnant Basque populations in the San Joaquin Valley. I halfway want to try some of the restaurants ('cept that I fear the dishes will be 'meat with your meat'. You see Basque names and festivals around.

There is also a long history of lonely Basque shepherds carving pornographic images into birches, which have aged into historical relics and not just horny graffiti.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 7:24 PM
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Did they just come over for mining? Seeing as there were massive sheep drives across Iberia since 2000BC or whenever.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 7:31 PM
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Oh, hey, Megan, we just started season 3 of Goliath on Amazon. Seen it?

I always like a good water rights drama, and this looks, 2 episodes in, to be epic. The almond company seems kind of like a cult!


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 7:33 PM
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http://www.unfogged.com/archives/comments_14845.html See comments 255-265


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 7:36 PM
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No - I see no tv and maybe three movies a year.

This one screenwriter dude wrote me to ask how to make his screenplay about the drinking water shortages in poor Valley communities realistic. We gchatted a few times. I pointed him to what I thought were good sources.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 7:55 PM
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He finally sent me the screenplay. I was horrified.

There were all these characters! And they had complicated histories! And hot lesbians met and had sex that night. No one wants to hot people having sex! One character was breaking into rich people's houses to fill water bottles to sell to people and humans can't carry enough water to profitably sell.

SO MUCH ACTION, and no one at all talking about agendas and whether they could be posted in time to avoid a Brown Act violation and what might be happening in closed session.

I wrote him that I was maybe not his intended audience and we left it at that.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 7:59 PM
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28

It's always best when the sex scenes are essential to the meeting agenda. Seems less exploitative.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 8:26 PM
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29

22.2 to 28. Or maybe vice versa.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 11- 6-19 8:53 PM
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9. We also have Old English Sheepdogs, which are medium to large sized animals bred to look like sheep so that the sheep would follow them around. They are also about as intelligent as sheep, but can be trained to follow simple orders.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 2:38 AM
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31

Do you have to give them in Anglo-Saxon?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 3:40 AM
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Their ears are all covered in fur, so if you try that they just look at you like "hwaet did you just say?"


Posted by: NW | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 3:58 AM
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33

I laughed.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 4:31 AM
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Old friends 'neath curious titles oft are found;
Come, pass the Old English Cocktail Olives round!

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UyFxCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT326&lpg=PT326&dq=frayn+old+english+cocktail+olives&source=bl&ots=qh6TxTIe_n&sig=ACfU3U2zGg5xuBsHpWDoa7NCf7Qfi6cpMw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiE5f6Oh9jlAhUdURUIHcbDA5cQ6AEwEXoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=frayn old english cocktail olives&f=false


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 5:03 AM
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Did they just come over for mining?

My understanding is the initial driver was mining but mining is really damn hard and they noticed there's a zillion acres of suitable sheep range and no one taking advantage. I imagine they started sending word back and after that a lot of them were coming for ranching rather than looking for gold or silver.


Posted by: gswift | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 6:55 AM
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36

There were several waves of emmigration from the Basque region to the US, for different reasons, over many decades. They didn't put all of the Basques in one exit.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 7:03 AM
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And in the earlier period, the Basque towns were better known for their hunting dogs than their herding dogs, as reflected in the classic mystery, The Hound of the Basquervilles.


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 7:14 AM
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36: Wow! That was Stanley-level!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 7:15 AM
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37: But now you're taking it too far.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 7:16 AM
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40

||

Other Chinese diplomats have worn variants of the Mao suit on occasion over the years; mostly they've stuck to western dress. But those who have presented their credentials in recent weeks, in places as far apart as India and Denmark, have done so wearing black Mao suits.
|>


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 8:27 AM
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41: Farther down the article, some truly useful information.

The Mao suit was invented not by Chairman Mao, but rather by his nationalist rival Sun Yat-Sen. In China, it's known as the "Sun Yat-Sen suit


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 8:31 AM
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42

I didn't understand the assignment.


Posted by: Opinionated Diplomat Dressed as an Extinct, Flightless Bird | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 8:31 AM
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Oh, honey. Resources are available for dyslexia, you just have to apply.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 8:36 AM
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44

I somewhat doubt either of them actually invented it.


Posted by: Ginger Yellow | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 8:49 AM
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45

Like everything else, it was Tesla's invention.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 8:56 AM
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46

No! I invented it!


Posted by: OPINIONATED THOMAS A. EDISON | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 9:17 AM
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47

Calling Sun Yat-Sen "Mao's nationalist rival" is kind of a bonkers version of history.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 9:27 AM
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48

And the Chinese call it a Zhongsan suit, not a Sun Yat-Sen suit.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 9:29 AM
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49

22: Around Fresno, they serve Basque-American or Hotel-Basque, grounded in the late 1900s tradition. So they usually come with a setup of salad, potato salad (with shrimp at my favorite place), soup, spaghetti, rolls, and another side or two served family style. Then a wave of your entrees -- garlic pork chops are delicious -- then a scoop of ice cream or sherbet to finish.

You can just order the setup, sans entree and be quite content... but the pork chops are really tasty and reheat well the next day. It's not an everyday treat, because it's way too much food but hard to say no to.


Posted by: Mooseking | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 9:37 AM
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50

47 is a good point, but 48 is just being pedantic.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 10:05 AM
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51

Speaking of pedantic, I just learned that "La Brea Tar Pits" means "the tar pit tar pits." I don't know who to complain to.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 12:52 PM
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One of your earlier links, Mossy, led me here: the curious tale of a conservation org in Mongolia trying to monopolize the supply of ancestral herding dogs, and offer them as incentives to adhere to a strict sustainable-herding protocol.

The severe Mongolian winters that wipe out millions of livestock are becoming more frequent, so herders are overcompensating for this - and for losses to hunting by predators, which include snow leopards, foxes, wolves and birds of prey - by keeping larger numbers of goats.
Historically the only dogs in Mongolia, bankhar have long been prized by nomadic families as effective protectors against these predators. Their presence can reduce the number of animals lost to predators . . . So far, the dog project's data shows an average 93.7 per cent reduction in livestock losses to predators, based on a sample size of 30 dogs.

From another angle, today I read these anecdotal observations about the effect of hunting on ranch coyote populations -- obviously this isn't peer-reviewed or anything, but I thought it was completely fascinating. Curious how the model would hold up under scrutiny. Sorry in advance for these long quotes:

For example, non hunted coyote in cattle ranches (4000 acres or more) seem to develop small, stable packs and territory. The food and ecosystem are abundant in large ranches. If the cattle can range, grass grows leaving vast regions of insects, and rodents. The pups learn early to forage on grasshoppers, mice. Very predictable quiet patterns. Often seen in distance in diurnal behaviors. By Fall, usually 2-3 pups remain. (accidents and natural predators curb litter survival) Pups seem to want to hang with pack a year or 2. Also, prey is scavenged until gone. A deer dying from being hit by car (running off to die in brush) or fawns harvested are eaten and visited until gone. Nothing is wasted.
The contrast again in ranches that hunt coyote hard is almost shocking. I have determined large, sheep operations are very challenging for Coyotes to coexist peacefully. If it's large, LGD [livestock guardian dogs?] can only be in so many places. Also, large herds of sheep graze the land intensely. The cropped grass becomes a giant short lawn, unsuitable habitat for rodents, insects etc..if sheep are grazing long, you'll notice hardly any sounds of crickets etc...and blackberry bushes are cut by ranchers because sheep get entangled. So the lack of forage, food and cover changes the setting. Add to this intense human hunting. Very intense. The coyote often become nocturnal. The closely cropped land and human hunters do not favor open, relaxed foraging. There are minimal rodents. So the coyote tend to hole up all day and hunt far and wide very hard at night with time as a factor. And pressure. Another complication-large herds of sheep especially isolated always have old, sick, hurt or dead. Or a scattering of lambs in all directions. The coyote scavenge dead sheep, or prey on lambs. Their pups are weaned on sheep. . . .

Scroll to the end to see the monstrous offspring of a coyote and a sheepdog. Quick search on "sheep ranch biodiversity" got me mostly stuff like this, so idk.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11- 7-19 9:19 PM
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1. Those Mongol dogs are magnificent and everyone should click that link.
2. The coyote stuff is fascinating, and leads me to conclude that we all have an obligation to wear less wool and eat more beef. That this happens to confirm my biases shouldn't be held against the conclusion.
3. Link last: that seems to be talking about using sheep around residences instead of mowing, so not really ranching? I saw this thing recently, for instance. (Also Peruvians.)


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 4:21 AM
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I've been wearing more wool the past couple years. Let's the house be heated less and you can't really wear cotton while hiking in my part of the country.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 6:02 AM
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I'm thinking of getting a beaver felt hat also.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 6:14 AM
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Are you eating more beef at least?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 6:17 AM
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I don't know about more, but certainly I eat a lot of beef.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 6:21 AM
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There were not many sheep in Nebraska, I think because they eat the grass down too far for it to recover. My grandfather had cows, pigs, and chickens. I only recently learned that most of the pigs he raised were for insulin, not eating.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 6:25 AM
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Do they grow cashmere? Yaks?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 8:04 AM
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The main business was and is corn and soy beans.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 8:12 AM
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You shouldn't eat any beef


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 9:47 AM
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In my defense, last night we ate pork chops.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 9:52 AM
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I'm thinking of making meatballs this weekend. Mixing beef, veal, pork, and cheese for best flavor/texture.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 9:56 AM
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You guys, Barry wants coyotes to be mercilessly hunted by sheep ranchers. Other than that I'm sure he's a totally okay person.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 9:59 AM
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The coyote-wolf hybrids are supposed to be surging in the east, where there isn't enough wilderness for a wolf, but the deer are too big for a normal coyote.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 10:28 AM
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The U.S. wool industry seems pretty meager, although you can pry my Smartwool socks from my cold, seemingly dead feet. (Oh sure, the Raynaud's syndrome would just go away if I ate more beef, but there are a few negative externalities associated with cattle ranching... hang on, let me see if I can think of them...)


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 10:41 AM
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If I can't make jokes in bad taste what's even the point of this place.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 10:44 AM
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I'm wearing Smartwool socks now. I like them better than Darntough, but there's no getting around that they don't last as long.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 10:46 AM
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Lift your game, Mobes. Darn tougher, not smarter.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 10:48 AM
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They're tough because they have a lot of nylon. That's why they aren't as comfortable.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 10:50 AM
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Darn with cotton thread. Even things out.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 10:56 AM
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I'm just riffing! I think now you can say something about how ironically, if I'd stuck to unpalatable synthetic leather shoes instead of caving and buying leather, the coyotes wouldn't nibble my exsanguinated toes after I collapse due to my low-protein diet... hmm, maybe you're better at this than I am.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 10:57 AM
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What about chickpeas?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:00 AM
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What about them?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:04 AM
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They aren't beef and have protein.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:08 AM
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But are they coyote-friendly?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:11 AM
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Chickpea shoes are just terrible.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:11 AM
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You use them as the insole on a leather shoe.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:13 AM
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77: When you get snowed in on a mountain they need a lot less boiling.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:21 AM
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79: Obligatory cooking video -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY0DOnNK3Wg


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:23 AM
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alternate bird interaction

I like about a quarter of what's in VQR. The Atlantic is OK, I liked the extract from a Hoffa surveillance book in the most recent one a lot.


Posted by: lw | Link to this comment | 11- 8-19 11:29 AM
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