Re: Semi-Weekly Check Ins, Reassurances, and Concerns, 8/7

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I'm sitting in personal comfort in the midst of a crumbling dystopia and mounting uncertainty over the future. Thanks for asking.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 6:28 AM
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The president of Heebie U asked the team of mucky-mucks (which includes me at the moment) to email her individually with our thoughts on our reopening plan (and whether various delays, etc should be implemented), and it's the most stressful email I've ever written.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 6:45 AM
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Like, is there any chance that these procedures of masks, outdoor tents for congregating, grab and go food, etc etc etc have a reasonable chance of creating a campus that is safe enough to be indistinguishable from the baseline of community spread? Is that even the right question? Or should I be measuring the safety of campus reopening against the safety of staying online?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 6:47 AM
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I'd just reply with the shrugging guy emoticon.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 6:52 AM
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I assumed you were the president of Heebie U, or at least a big donor to have them name it that.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 6:53 AM
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I don't envy you your task, but I would buy an album from Heebie & the Mucks.

As for the rest, I have probably the hottest office in the company and really should come in earlier so that I can leave before the broiling hour. School starts Monday in Berlin, and I guess we will find out soon where R0 really stands. I will be pleased, but also surprised, if we get in a month of regular instruction.

The furthest-right acceptable political party has been saying there's no need to survey whether police actions have institutional racial bias because that sort of thing is illegal and so obviously doesn't happen. The local police force cleared out a squat/neighborhood pub that had been running for more than 30 years so that British billionaires could have a better return on their money. Rubbernecking a fire at the recycling center directly across the river from my office might not have been my best idea ever. Fortunately, Germany seems to have better fertilizer storage regulations than Lebanon, and they are even (I presume) enforced.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 6:59 AM
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Have colleges and universities resumed anywhere in Europe?


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:00 AM
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Had Pola over yesterday for lunch and a movie (Big Night, she's on a culinary film kick). She brought over some Polish beet root soup that she made, it was great. Nothing today but lying around my apartment. Tomorrow looks like the beach with Pola and some other friends and in the afternoon Korean archery with Pola, she'd long asked me to go and like the big dummy I am never took her up on it but she's going for a few more lessons in her remaining time here.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:14 AM
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Germany's summer semester just ended in July. But I don't think European universities generally start up again until September, Germany even later. The winter semester at the University of Munich, for example, is scheduled to begin October 12.

Hmm, Oxford also starts up again October. Let me see if that is more general. Ok, Stockholm is August 31; Autonomous University of Madrid is September but can't guarantee it will be starting as normal; University of Bologna appears to be November but my Italian is not very good; Eötvös Lorand University (Budapest) starts September 7; Charles University is October 1.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:21 AM
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Fortunately, Germany seems to have better fertilizer storage regulations than Lebanon, and they are even (I presume) enforced.

Why would you need to enforce it? Poor fertilizer storage practices are illegal and so they obviously don't happen.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:33 AM
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Maryland's post-reopening spike is going back down, and our 7-positive rate dropped below 4% for the first time since March.

Johns Hopkins just announced that they'll be online only for the Fall.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:34 AM
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They can't even spell one of the most common names in America correctly.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:35 AM
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UMass Amherst also just bailed on in-person classes this fall as well.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:39 AM
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I asked my doctor if we should get tested given our possible exposure (AIMHB one of my stepdaughter's caregivers has Covid) and he told me that because of a shortage of tests, only people showing symptoms should get tested.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:44 AM
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In other news, we officially decided that we aren't going to my nephew's wedding on Labor Day weekend. My other siblings and spouses are going, but the good news is that we all agreed that my mother shouldn't come from Israel, and we all told her that, and she decided not to come.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:48 AM
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12: Hopkin isn't all that common.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:48 AM
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Adding to 1, which also applies to me, I have been almost incapacitated lately by rage and hatred.

I try to remember that my animosity for white America is a function of my own privilege. White people have been fucking up the lives of people who aren't me for the entire history of the country. But now it really hits home.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 7:52 AM
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UMass Amherst also just bailed on in-person classes this fall as well.

I expect we'll be seeing more of these announcements in the next few days.

It's impressive how far into the summer schools stuck with "if we just wish harder" as their plan for the Fall.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 8:13 AM
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I think it was more "if we let the disaster unfold more, we'll be in a place where we get less criticism."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 8:16 AM
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I took a couple golf lessons and can now smash a little white ball 200 yards on about half my attempts. I can see why people like golf clubs as improvised weapons. We're trying our first 9-hole course this weekend.
In other words I too agree with 1.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 8:24 AM
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Was visiting with a prof at the U a week or two ago, who'd heard that the thinking was that if they didn't resume normal operations this year, they'd cease to exist at all. Undoubtedly hyperbole, but the hit from not having students in dorms, eating lunch at various cafeterias, and all the rest -- and not having home football games! -- is all too real. They have a 25k seat stadium in our 80k city, and it fills for every game. That's a bunch of hotel stays for alums over the course of a fall, and a lot of beer and burgers.

We'll still be a drinking town with a fishing problem, but a lot of businesses are getting whacked but good.

But, real estate is booming, as people who think that covid can't live at this altitude (yes, this is real) and their friends are buying everything in sight.

Anyhow, we'll be in Glacier for the weekend, without internet. Be well, imaginary friends.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 8:44 AM
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a drinking town with a fishing problem

This is great.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 8:48 AM
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Not original to me, of course.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 8:55 AM
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Oh, and the conference has cancelled the football season, to be played in the "spring." That's a word with a slightly different meaning in Montana than in other places in the conference, like San Luis Obispo.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 9:11 AM
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1 thirded. The past couple weeks haven't been great for me, but they've been much better than most of April through June or that period in July when I was at home. I hesitate to express optimism - I always hesitate, and I'm really, really fucking leery of it these days, for obvious reasons - but I have every reason to think that next week will be great and we have a decent play for the two weeks after that and the school year going forward. To summarize, a pod with four other families for Atossa, in each house for a week at a time on a rotation, and Cassandane and I work from home indefinitely. It's still crazy and infuriating that this is the best option available and I know a lot of people don't even have access to this, but it should work for us.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 10:03 AM
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I also am 1.

Doing fine here; the exposed employee at my wife's store came back negative, so bullet dodged.

My work's continuing to pick up steam; one of the trainees we'd brought back for 20 hour weeks got to work 40 this week. Plan preparation seems to be going well-- architects can get the plans prepped and submitted mostly from their homes, with calls & video chats with the owners. There was a big stumble in the spring, but we're seeing a broad spectrum of plans submitted, including home remodels and additions, new medical office buildings, and everything in between.


Posted by: Mooseking | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 10:09 AM
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My mother's broken ankle is doing well, but American medical care is a nightmare hellscape and I'm going to start murdering people.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 10:16 AM
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Thanks for the notice.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 10:19 AM
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Coming to the end of a week's holiday, my first since August 2019, and desperately needed. All well.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 10:19 AM
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Trying not to think about whether my job will survive if things don't improve in the next six months. Our research facility is grant supported, but my job is only partly grant-supported and mostly paid for by profit from services. We have not been providing a lot of services lately. Because we are attached to a university and because of the uniqueness of the service we provide, I think we can run in the red for a year. After that, I'm pretty sure my job will go - if not before. After that I imagine a downward financial spiral which ends in selling the house to clear the mortgage and moving in with parents, since I can't imagine I'll be able to find employment at anything that isn't high-risk.

I just...if Biden doesn't win, there will be no incentive for Trump to continue even the pathetic federal response we've got, cities and states will fall into bankruptcy....things will literally fall apart everywhere except in the richest parts of the country. It will be apocalyptic and I don't think people have grasped this. It won't be like now, where there's some pressure to provide some federal relief. We're talking about nothing from the federal government, nothing. And with 30% of renters evicted, I mean, what is society even going to look like in a year?


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 10:54 AM
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You're all comparatively secure middle to upper middle class people with relatively good judgement - surely you can tell me why I'm wrong on this.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 10:55 AM
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It's going to get worse but I think all the other options after much, much worse.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:00 AM
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I don't think you are wrong. I think the choice between Biden and Trump is that stark.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:00 AM
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Local case counts are finally going down, so hopefully our second wave has crested. It's only been a couple days though so we'll see. Most bars and restaurants have complied with the mayor's emergency order shutting down indoor dining, but there have been a couple loud holdouts defying the order so there's going to be a big legal fight of some sort.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:01 AM
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Yeah, it's hard for me to sit with a contemplation of the future if Trump is re-elected, because it's the catastrophic dissolution of society like you describe. It's a Venezuela-style collapse.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:03 AM
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surely you can tell me why I'm wrong on this

No, I don't think we can.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:18 AM
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At this point, to be honest, I'd kill myself if it weren't for my father and brother. Everyone else in my life has other family, but my father is in his mid-seventies and won't be around forever and after he's gone my brother would be all alone. Then sometimes I think maybe that would be better, because he'd inherit everything there is to inherit.

Mostly I just hope I'll die in my sleep. I have life insurance through work as long as I have a job so there'd be some money for survivors, no one would feel guilty and while it would be very sad it wouldn't be traumatizing like a suicide. I keep reading about that "broken heart syndrome" business and thinking that maybe I'll just depress myself into a heart attack and be done.

The future is only going to be worse and worse, even if Trump doesn't win.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:25 AM
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The future will be worse and worse. That part is true. It's not a set in stone fact that the only conclusion is to be suicidal, though. The fact that it's breaching your mental health on this scale indicates that it's time to talk to a psychiatrist and therapist, Frowner. I hope you don't mind me being direct - I'm taking you literally that you're borderline suicidal.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:35 AM
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(and of course, maybe you already are. But you need to communicate with them so that they are clear that this is where you're currently at, in terms of despair and suicidal ruminations.)


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:37 AM
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I have a new thing to freak out about: the measurement of coronavirus RNA in our poop is suddenly up, a lot. It's currently thought to lead test-based measures by around a week. If that's true, we're in for a big increase in cases starting Monday or so. And this is before the college kids come back (The nearest university is bringing back 5000 undergrads, from around the country. Supposedly quarantining all of them until they get three consecutive negative tests. Still hard not to think it's going to cause problems.)

Figuring out what to do about school continues to be a low-information stressful disaster.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:38 AM
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I'm sorry you're feeling badly, Frowner, and I wish I had some good "chin up" advice for you. It's a grim world right now, but I suspect you're underestimating your usefulness on this planet. Things do change, and not always for the worst.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:50 AM
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Seconding heebie, Frowner. We're your friends. We care about you. We value your presence. I hope you can talk to a professional who can provide meaningful support despite the difficulties you see.

The world is indeed looking very grim in many ways right now, but there is also incredible organizing going on. For instance, based on my visits to St. Louis over the past five years, I would never have believed that progressive Black women candidates could snatch victory from the jaws of the stultified white and Black Democratic establishment, and yet they did the other day. This stuff matters.

I'm not being Pollyanna. Even if we manage to defeat Trump in November, there are ugly forces unleashed in our world that are pretty terrible. But it is possible to survive terrible times and to wrest power back from the forces that have hoarded it. I believe in our capacity to do that.


Posted by: Witt | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 12:08 PM
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Frowner, I'm not sure it is only ever going to get worse. We've been assaulted for four years with seriously bad shit, energy and formal authority poured into viciousness, meanness, cruelty, and then also stupidity and tackiness. Shitty people have been thriving on it. But it looks like that Biden will win, and then he'll be a disappointment. But even though he'll not do enough, the barrage of cruel stupid meanness will abruptly end. It is hard to remember what it felt like, but it wasn't our whole lives that four times a day we'd hear something so staggering that it would have ended any previous political career. That's unique to Trump and it will likely end.

I know I swore off optimistic predictions, but there's also the cumulative effects of the down-ballot elections. My own city council is changing and good people are shaking 30 year Dem moderates out of office. When people aren't consumed by holding back the tide of Trump-orignated awfulness, there may be some actual gains.

I'm sorry you feel terrible and I wish you didn't. Heebie is right, what she says to you. I do think the choice is very stark, but I don't think it is inevitable that we'll end up on the bad path. It looks likely we'll end up on the better path, and that may even branch off into a good path (with relentless work by people who are in fact showing up to do the work). I personally think you particularly are brilliant (and have said so to other people in the sanctity of off-blog communications), so I don't think it would be a good outcome if you died in your sleep.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 12:13 PM
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It's the virus that worries me. I can't go anywhere because my household and I are high-risk. If I lose my job, I'll have to undertake the dangerous process of selling most of my possessions and selling the house (probably to one of those buyers of last resort companies because it's so run down) and then getting a vehicle and getting across country to family. It seems like it will be really difficult to avoid getting infected during this process.

And then what happens? No jobs, no insurance. No insurance, a scramble for meds - and my expensive migraine medication won't be affordable anymore. And we'll be a burden on my retired father for however long it takes for the pandemic to....to die out? And then what kind of work will we do? I'm sort of light-disabled by spinal stenosis now, so I can't do anything that involves standing for long periods, so I can't even do check-out clerk jobs.

I feel like all that can possibly happen is a few more years of increasing misery where I'll be a burden and put the rest of my family at financial risk, followed by a miserable death. Granted, this would probably be less traumatic for them than if I killed myself, but it would leave them in a much worse material situation in a darkening world.


Posted by: Frowner | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 12:14 PM
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My impression is that the timeline for the vaccine is shorter than the one you gave for your program getting the axe.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 12:18 PM
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I think this might catch on.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 12:36 PM
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I will not stop being nervous about the election, even if Biden wins, until after the inauguration, but with a new president, I think things will get better economically. I worry about the short term and the long term (because some of the damage isn't economic and not fixable by policy), but assuming the short term isn't a disaster, I think spring will be better.

I also agree with Heebie. Please take care.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 12:44 PM
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Does anyone have any recommendations on where my money would make the greatest impact? Should I just donate it to Swing Left? Or is there a reason I should send to individual candidates instead, and if so, who? Jon Ossoff? Jaime Harrison?

I'm scheduled to phone bank again tomorrow, and I gotta say, I'm dreading it. I've promised myself that I can have waffles and ice cream and bourbon as soon as I'm done.

Frowner, I wish I had something comforting to say. I think you're right that the future will get worse and worse, but if Trump doesn't win it will also get better in a lot of ways, at least in the short term. For me, that's something to look forward to. I also agree with heebie that seeing a therapist is a good idea.


Posted by: jms | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 2:28 PM
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We're hoping we'll be allowed to board our flight Monday night back to topless, enlightened, COVID-generally-under-control Europe. But it's by no means a sure thing, because it depends on our being able to show a negative PCR test no more than 72 hours old. Luckily enough, we didn't realize the airline had moved our flight ahead a day, so we booked a Friday afternoon test, which gives the lab some extra time to process it -- so long as there's no evidence on the results they send us of when the samples were taken, in which case we're fucked because it will have been about 81 hours.

USA! USA! USA!

(To be fair, it's Portugal's rules that are demanding something difficult if not impossible; it's just America's complete failure as a functioning society that's *making* it difficult to impossible.)


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 2:59 PM
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Oops, just caught up with the thread and now realize how tone-deaf my comment is considering Frowner's, etc. Sorry about that!

Wish I had something more helpful to say beyond echoing Megan & Heebie, Frowner. there is good reason to be hopeful!


Posted by: x. trapnel | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 3:07 PM
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I am sure that things are terrible and climate change etc. means they're going to stay terrible, BUT depression is a brutal disease and ought to be treated aggressively. Don't let the badness of the world poison and harm your mind without fighting back with all the tools at your disposal. I can get painfully earnest on this subject and no one wants that, but still: Frowner, I can't diagnose depression over the internet or anything, but if you do have it, you deserve to kill it with fucking fire do what you need to recover.


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 4:31 PM
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Take care Frowner


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 5:17 PM
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48: The Princeton Election Consortium "moneyball" model puts the greatest impact of a Senatorial donation in Montana, followed by Kansas. His model assumes that a dollar will "buy" the same number of votes wherever it is donated, so
your money goes farther in low population states.

https://election.princeton.edu/election-tracking-2020-u-s-senate/


Posted by: unimaginative | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 5:28 PM
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Is that the guy who ate the bug? Because that wasn't enough for me to forget.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 5:31 PM
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As noted above, I'm kind of nuts right now with American health care and all, but Frowner! I'm also bad with mental health care advice, but listen to people who know things and do what you have to feel better! Not that I should be giving orders to people on the internet, but I don't want you feeling the way you described above, regardless of whether it makes sense.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 5:39 PM
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Echoing what everyone else said to Frowner. I care about you! I don't know if/when/how things will get better with the world or not, but I do know that depressive periods in my own life have always ended, eventually, and that it's worth doing your best to make it through them. Please reach out to mental health professionals who can help you get through this.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 6:21 PM
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I'm beginning to become a little suspicious about my own university, because we're weathering the pandemic oddly well in a financial sense compared to other schools I know.

First, we haven't had a working budget model for at least two (three?) years, as we decided to junk the dreaded revenue-based budgeting model at some point, replaced it with TBD?!?!??!, and have just been winging it ever since, as far as I can tell from faculty senate meetings.

Second, prior to that, there was a big episode where the Engineering School overspent their budget by ridiculous amounts, and all of the other colleges had to chip in to make up the difference. My college and departments saw some level of cuts to our own budget, but not tons. We were also under attack from the Dean's office, so it was hard to tell *why* we were losing our funding anyhow.

Third, salaries and benefits for full-time faculty are pretty generous here.

Fourth, even though the pandemic has really hurt us financially, we're the only institution I know of that hasn't made drastic cuts to the aforementioned salaries and benefits. Most adjuncts have lost their jobs, but the full-time faculty have barely been affected. We're forfeiting a trivial amount of merit pay, and postponing a structural adjustment to our salaries that was negotiated in our last CBA, but otherwise no cuts, and we extended the (really decent) CBA another 2 years.

What is going on here? If it's some kind of fraud, I really hope the details aren't revealed during one of my contract renewal years. I suppose it helps that we don't have a med school, but that can't be the main reason.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 6:36 PM
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OT: I don't want to sound too critical, but Hobbs and Shaw really takes liberties with physics.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 8:10 PM
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48: "My top recommendation for political donations is Oregon Senator Jeff Merkley's Leadership PAC. Since 2010, I've given $5000 each year. I'll tell you the big story about what Leadership PACs are and why this one is so great. Leadership PAC money is to pass on to other people's campaigns. Jeff can't use it for his own reelection. He puts most of it into Senate races, though he donates to House and state-level races sometimes. The cool thing about Leadership PACs is that I'm basically buying influence for Jeff. Senators have taken his money and owe him favors.

"I want to build Jeff's favor bank. He's great on every big issue from health care to climate change to immigration. (Medicare for All, Green New Deal, he broke the kids in cages story by personally showing up at a detention center and demanding as a Senator to be let in.) With my money, he basically becomes my lobbyist on a broad porfolio of issues. I can't get that if I donate directly to Sara Gideon or whoever. By donating through Jeff, I give my causes influence with her.

"A Senate focus is good. A competitive Senate race costs about 3x as much as a House race and has well over 13x the impact. Senate terms are 3x longer and the Senate is 4.35x as concentrated, which multiplies to ~13. The Senate also considers all those nominations to Cabinets and Courts and the Fed. Historically it's the tightest bottleneck in part because of the filibuster, so it's the place where we need help. Senate power is definitely the thing to buy. With this I can help Democratic Senators win and build Jeff's power within the Senate all at once.

"Jeff is my dream Senate Majority Leader. He manages legislative blocs with a gentle soft-spoken style that gets people to see reason and avoids making enemies. The things he did on a 31-29 majority as Speaker in Oregon back in '07-08 are legend--they passed the whole Democratic agenda they'd campaigned on plus cool things like a new form of collective landownership that made life easier for people in trailer parks. He got the 31 Democrats to vote as a bloc, voting even for a few things they didn't want, because otherwise a few defections would sink almost everything. So they passed everything.

"Usually I'd also be able to tell you about the day-and-a-half long fundraisers in Portland and the Oregon wine country, but that's all canceled due to the pandemic this year. Hope we can do it again soon--it's a great place to learn what goes on inside politics. Here's a donation link. They've started calling it the Blue Wave Project. The only thing I'm seeing of comparable value this year is in state legislative races and I have to do more work to figure that out. But if you think you might be giving money to Senate campaigns this year, this is my best idea about how to do it. https://secure.actblue.com/donate/bwp-ns" --Neil Sinhababu


Posted by: Mr.F | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 10:59 PM
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I was thinking of starting a PAC. People give you briefcases full of money. To give to other people, I guess.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:19 PM
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Beach this morning, as per the other thread, and in the afternoon some Korean archery with Pola. It's my first time and I hope I don't suck so bad that I dislike it.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 7-20 11:26 PM
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So did I mention the engine on my Mini Cooper overheated a few days ago? Anyway my regular mechanic is on vacation back home in Lebanon (all safe and sound) so I had it sent to the dealer's service center the other day. I just got a call from the service center and they want almost a full $1,000 just to check the engine. Not to repair it. Just check. When I balked he went to about $700 which is still way to much just to check. To be clear while this is one of the worst things that can happen mechanically there was no unusual engine noise and no smoke. Now arranging with my mechanic in Lebanon to bring it to a friend of his.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 1:52 AM
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What distinguishes Korean archery from other kinds?


Posted by: Chris Y | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 2:37 AM
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I guess I'm about to find out but I suspect type of bow (compound reflex) arrows (bamboo) drawing technique, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gakgung#Transition_to_recreational_sport


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 2:50 AM
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Also, DMZ is one of the standard distances.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 5:35 AM
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Well that was great fun and I wished I'd taken up Pola on her offer to go a long time ago. I signed up for a total of 4 lessons and will likely continue after that. Met a young Fremen dude who was using an authentic old school style bow, I think it might have been more Mongolian than Korean but didn't get the chance to ask.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 6:54 AM
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Just a couple of weeks ago, I bought arrows for my bow, which I bought in 1996 and then got busy so it hasn't been fired yet. It's been hot or I'd go see if I could shoot it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 7:10 AM
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66: That's a heck of a hobby. There are a surprising number of axe-throwing establishments in Michigan, but the idea of possibly being hit with someone else's badly thrown axe is off-putting.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 7:38 AM
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69

Mongolian bows are great when you are on horseback, but if you are hunting the elusive kimchi, best to go with Korean.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 7:44 AM
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70

There are a bunch of them here too.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 7:44 AM
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71

70 to 68.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 7:45 AM
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72

62 is a bit of an ATM, is this outrageous or not and am I doing the right thing?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:11 AM
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73

Ask the mechanic? I can't do Click and Clack.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:28 AM
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74

When I was living in Lincoln Nebraska, I heard of the Prairie Bowman's Club, which I thought of joining, but never got around to it.

I never did learn whether they actually hunted with bows and arrows, or just shot at targets.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:33 AM
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75

I never heard of it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:33 AM
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76

Also, don't pay $700 just to have someone look at your car.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:34 AM
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77

76 Exactly


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:35 AM
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78

I never heard of it.

The first rule of Prairie Bowman's Club is that you don't talk about Prairie Bowman's Club.


Posted by: AcademicLurker | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:37 AM
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79

The second rule is don't pay $700 just to have somebody look at your car.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:40 AM
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80

The third rule is a complicated set of rules about what types of cousin marriage are allowable.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:43 AM
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I am pretty good at just looking at cars, and I bet I could earn a living if people paid me $700 each time I see one.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:55 AM
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82

The Great Plains Archery Club was the one that let you define incest in your own way.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 9:00 AM
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Adding to the love and sympathy for Frowner. That sounds very stressful, and it is valuable to talk about how bad things could be, but that doesn't mean things will turn out that badly.

With a nod to Spider Robinson let me sincerely hope that shared pain is lessened, and that talking here can offer some support.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 9:19 AM
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Frowner, I'm sorry. And you do add things to the lives of imaginary friends everywhere. I recognise the urge to suicide as a way to be useful and to mean something to the people you love; it's not much use, when one feels like that, to be reminded that you mean a whole lot more than useful to them. Seconding what Ms Robot and Lurid say about trying to fight back. And, of course, good counselling if you can get it. But all we can really offer is some kind of ghost hand reaching through the ether to touch yours. Here, have mine.


Posted by: NW | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 1:18 PM
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85

My sister is livid because coworkers are posting pictures of themselves at Sturgis and the governor has made mask requirements illegal.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 2:06 PM
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86

Leaving aside Covid, the dismantling of the post office the actual Nazi sent to Germany as an ambassador, and the open involvement of Russia in the election, there's also the sudden defunding of social security/assumption of dictatorial power. This is far worse than Watergate. I don't think the civic body can take this and remain civic.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 3:23 PM
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I am once again, like an asshole, reading the NYT, which has another of these shit-talking extravaganzas about Trump and the intelligence community up. I don't follow the man's utterances at all closely, so I found this striking:

Trump's hostility was not purely a matter of self-interest. As a candidate, he often railed against the foreign policies of his predecessors, Democrat and Republican alike -- in particular the Iraq war, a debacle that was inseparable from the failures of the intelligence community. After it was reported in December 2016 that the C.I.A. had concluded that Russia interfered with the 2016 election on Trump's behalf, his transition team released a press statement declaring, "These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction." Once Trump was in the White House, a former Trump-administration official recalls: "I cannot tell you how many times he randomly raised the Iraq war. Like it morally offended him. He believed the intelligence community purposely made it all up."


Posted by: lurid keyaki | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 5:08 PM
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J, Robot, I'm curious about your weird university, too! wtf.


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 5:12 PM
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89

I mean, I'm glad that they aren't glad that they aren't chopping my pay and benefits...


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 5:24 PM
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Agree with 86.

Son successfully married today. But I'm finding my happiness from that greatly tempered. How much less sanguine could I be about the world they will live in? None. None less sanguine.

And since iI am me, let me add that the press is far outdoing themselves in the missing-the-point fatuousness of their coverage.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 7:04 PM
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91

Congrats.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 7:35 PM
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92

hooray!!! congrats!


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:07 PM
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93

I am feeling white hot livid about this post office sabotage.

My only silver lining is that it's a sabotage that is noticeable to everyone - unlike slashing social safety net, all economic groups are relying heavily on the post office during a pandemic, as they order from Target or Amazon or whatever. Businesses will surely be irate as it slows them down. etc.

But it's not necessarily enough of a silver lining to mitigate the damage.


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 8:10 PM
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94

It's good to know that the 45% of the voters supporting this really want to cause pain to others and aren't just not paying attention.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 8-20 9:18 PM
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95

Just felt a decent-sized earthquake (5.1) centered about 15 miles from here (NW North Carolina). Pretty damn noticeable in our seemingly not that well-built A-frame vacation cottage.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:07 AM
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Fairly rare; apparently largest in NC since a 5.2 in 1916.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:09 AM
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It's either that or someone left close to 3,000 tons of ammonium nitrate lying around.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:17 AM
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there's also the sudden defunding of social security/assumption of dictatorial power.

yes, this is terrifying.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:32 AM
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99

That was me.


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:32 AM
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So even though I'm arranging to get the car from the dealer and hand it off to my mechanic's friend the dealer still wants $240 for doing absolutely nothing. I mean the tow was $40 and fine, slap me with a $50 service charge or whatever but this is outrageous.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:33 AM
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Oh fuck. My ex sister in law was in town on Thursday. She was on a visit to inter the ashes of her second husband. She no longer speaks to her sister, my ex, who accused her all around the family of conspiring to steal their mother's money under the pretence that she had Alzheimers. There were difficulties with this theory, chief among them the fact that my ex MiL did in fact have Alzheimers, and had been diagnosed as such by her GP practice. My ex explained that this was because her sister had by some unknown mechanism subverted the testing procedure simply to gaslight her mother into supposing she had Alzheimers. My ex saw her mother two or three times a year; her sister two or three times a week. This story has some relevance to why I exed her.

After the split, the ex instituted a rigorous policy that no one who talked to her might talk to me or her sister and vice versa. So I get very little news. The ex, does, however, talk to an aunt, now nearly blind and living alone, who talks to a cousin, who talks to ex's sister, my ex SiL. So I just had a phone call from ex-SiL with news. Ex has lost her job in the pandemic and went to the aunt to say she was now entirely broke because I, evil, hard-hearted bastard that I am, had screwed her over in the divorce and ensured that she got none of my pension. [This is of course entirely untrue: she has half my pension as a reward for refusing to work full time for twenty years after our daughter was born].

So she has persuaded the aunt to alter her will so that the cousin and her sister were cut out and all would go to the ex.

Cousin and sister say that they don't care about the money so much as the lies, which they find really shocking. I am inclined to credit this, or most of it.

I don't really suppose the ex will travel to Epping again and smother the aunt with a pillow once the will is changed but I am very tempted to dig out the terms of the divorce settlement and make them available to the aunt. In a detective story, that would be the thing which led to aunt's encounter with an unexpected pillow. In real life I don't expect that. In fact I don't know what good would come of it. But I am sick of being lied about.

What does the mineshaft think?


Posted by: William de Worde | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 7:00 AM
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102

Show the aunt the divorce settlement.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 7:07 AM
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103

I really thought this was leading up to an affair with the ex-SIL for the first half or so.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 7:10 AM
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104

Let the cousin ex-SIL have a copy of the settlement to use if they want to do anything with the aunt. Let it be internal to that family.


Posted by: heebie-geebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 7:11 AM
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105

Put your head in a bucket until you worship the ground she walks on.


Posted by: Opinionated Republican Senator | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 7:17 AM
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106

That is certainly what the ex would advise.


Posted by: William de Worde | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 7:35 AM
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That does seem pretty straightforward- if aunt found out that ex was flat out lying about whether she's getting money from your pension it would resolve things as far as whether ex needs aunt's support.
I have a cow-orker from Beirut and the whole thing is horrible. Orker's family in the area survived because the parents instinctively reacted to first explosion, based on experience of civil war, by taking cover. But he knows several people from high school who died or just vanished and will probably never be found. The reported death toll is well below actual numbers.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 7:44 AM
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104 gets it right. Be grateful that you don't have to involve yourself in this, and remember that it really isn't any of your business how this is handled.

If you filed the settlement with a court, so much the better. You can advise the relevant people where to find it as a matter of public record (and then maybe give it to them yourself with the understanding that you'd rather they not mention your participation). Sometimes stuff like this is online.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 8:25 AM
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109

This is online right now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 8:27 AM
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So Chani asked me what the origin/earliest use of the word "Emirian" for "Emirati" is and inexplicably my great national library does NOT FUCKING HAVE AN ONLINE SUBSCRIPTION TO THE OED! Which tells you a lot about this place. So asking a favor of any of the academics/academic adjacent people here who have semi-decent institutions that do have such a sub to look it up for me and email the entry to me (or post it here). Email at the link.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 8:38 AM
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111

I'm going to guess 1856.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 8:41 AM
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112

Another vote for making the settlement available to the ex-SIL, and maybe tell her that she can tell her aunt that if the aunt calls you, you will confirm the facts. And then stay out of it any further, it's between the SIL and the aunt.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 9:30 AM
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113

And boy, I'll say rude things about Tim all day, but as exes go, he's been very little trouble, and even when there has been friction it's been more stupid than malicious. Hearing other people's stories makes me realize how easy I've had it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 9:32 AM
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114

He's under some parking lot in New Jersey then?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 9:35 AM
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He's reverted to his Appalachian roots, on a hilltop in backwoods NC someplace, not bothering me. It's awesome. I mean, the kids are legal adults now, so we don't need to arrange things about them, they arrange their own things.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 9:41 AM
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116

He should be careful. They have earthquakes now.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 9:59 AM
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I know. A disproportionate number of people in my life live in NC for no systematic reason. The damn state is stalking me.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 10:05 AM
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118

It's very nice except in the spring and summer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 10:19 AM
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119

The 104 and the whole of the 104.


Posted by: Chris Y | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 11:11 AM
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Yes - 104 is my instinct entirely but I wanted partly to vent and partly to have it backed up by the collective sagacity of the mineshaft.


Posted by: William de Worde | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 12:00 PM
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121

||

anyone know where I can buy some cute little post-it notes that say "pull your mask over your fucking nose, you goddamn unchecked disease vector."? I need some.

|>


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 12:39 PM
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122

Staples.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 12:41 PM
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121: if you find them, can you see if they also sell, "your turn signal appears to be broken, because it wasn't working when you took that last corner."


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 12:50 PM
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121: I want to make something to put on my mask that says I'm wearing a mask over my mouth and nose to protect you. If you can't do the same for me, you're an asshole."


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 1:15 PM
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125

Then people without masks will get really close so they can read that.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 1:22 PM
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126

And smile, quietly, to themselves.


Posted by: chill | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 1:24 PM
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127

Frowner - that sounds like it feels just awful. I wish I had something more helpful useful to add , but I don't; can only hope you find yourself in better spirits soon.

1 is me.

113 is me too. It's so much better off than many I know.


Posted by: soup biscuit | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 3:12 PM
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American health care remains terrible. A little over a week after my mother had her broken ankle reassembled by a surgeon out of town where she was when she broke it, we have completely failed to find an NYC orthopedist who will do followup care, which she needs.

My sister is going to start making threats at hospitals on Monday, but I don't know what you're supposed to do if you don't have a frightening doctor in the family.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:04 PM
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129

Limp.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:14 PM
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130

What she's doing right now is hopping. Turns out using a walker is tricky if you had to buy your ow at the drugstore and no one explained how to use it before pushing you out the front door of the hospital.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:34 PM
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131

Own. Not ow.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:35 PM
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132

Turns out teaching somebody with Alzheimer's that they use a walker isn't easy either.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:41 PM
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133

Anyway, the make nicer ones with handlebars kind of like on a bike, a brake, a seat, and a storage area for single-serve bottles of wine under the seat.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:44 PM
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Yeah, the drugstore ones are kind of Spartan. Also, for a surprising small range of heights. Mom's only 5'9", but we've got this thing on its highest setting and she's stooping a little to use it. Tomorrow I may try to find someplace that will sell me a tall-person model.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:53 PM
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135

I think most people who use them stoop more than a little.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:55 PM
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136

That seems biomechanically less than ideal, unless you had a pre-existing stoop.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 5:57 PM
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132: Eep, went through that twice. I am sorry. It worked well once the person was up and had hands on it (use was surprisingly intuitive), but getting to that step was difficult.

134: Don't forget the tennis balls on the back supports if you don't get the handbrake/four wheel kind. The tennis balls make it way easier to use. No joke. Good luck with reimbursement.


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:04 PM
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138

LB, probably you know this, but what you want is a "durable medical goods" store that sells (probably) "rollators," which is what Moby is talking about.
https://justwalkers.com/products/drive-adjustable-seat-height-rollator?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiqL95bmP6wIVUr7ACh1nzAmuEAQYBSABEgJXOfD_BwE


Posted by: ydnew | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:08 PM
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139

I don't even know how it's working now since no visitors are allowed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:12 PM
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140

I never heard that name, but yes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:13 PM
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One of the many things that sucks about this situation is that we haven't been able to get any advice about what exactly Mom could get the most benefit out of. She's fairly strong and active, the problem is just that she has only one leg she can put weight on, so she's hopping. What she thinks she needs isn't wheels, it's something absolutely steady to put her weight on while she hops, so it's the four legged rubber foot dealio with no tennis balls.

But the wheely thing might work if we could connect with someone who could give her advice about technique. And there's also the kneeling scooter thing, which looks intimidating but maybe?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:27 PM
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I mean, crutches is what they would give somebody younger. The walkers really aren't designed for somebody with a bad leg. They're designed for people who will fall right over otherwise. That's why they kind of figure the users are stooping.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:30 PM
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To be clear, I'm not saying try crutches. There are probably lots of really good reasons that there's no Matlock branded crutches.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:36 PM
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144

If she broke her ankle and not something higher up, and the other leg is fine, I would think she'd do well with one of the knee-scooter things. I used to see those pretty regularly around the office being used by middle-aged dudes who had damaged something in their foot.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:37 PM
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145

I've seen a number of injured students on campus use the kneeling scooter thing, but I have no idea how much coordination it requires.


Posted by: J, Robot | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 6:38 PM
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146

Basically, the fact that they turfed her out of the hospital with the theory that her family could care for her and she'd figure out how to get around somehow is a sin. I mean, her family can care for her, I'm managing, but I've spent the last week on the phone multiple hours a day and have completely failed to connect to anyone who could be helpful with what she should be doing in terms of mobility, let alone the followup orthopedic care she needs.

This country sucks.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 7:20 PM
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Yeah, that seems pretty bad. We had lots of trouble making various arrangements for my parents, but the hospitals were very good at giving you a whole bunch of outpatient follow-up appointments on the way out. The in-home physical therapy people were just great. I think the key to getting that was a doctor checking a box saying that travel was a hardship.

Maybe it's covid-related exhaustion?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 8:28 PM
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148

that's infuriating. What a waste of your time.


Posted by: heebie | Link to this comment | 08- 9-20 9:17 PM
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149

||

Field trip to Dagestan, anyone?
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35267/the-only-missile-toting-ekranoplan-russia-ever-built-just-took-its-last-trip-on-the-caspian

|>


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 4:09 AM
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150

She's a beauty.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 4:32 AM
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151

A disproportionate number of people in my life live in NC for no systematic reason.

Because it's goddamned awesome is why.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 4:55 AM
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152

I knew the AN-225 was enormous, but I hadn't realised that it was actually bigger in some respects than the Lun.


Posted by: Chris Y | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 5:40 AM
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151: You know, I'm in your area every few months these days. I should remember to email you and have a drink or something when I'm down there sometime.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 5:59 AM
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154

If you go to the James Joyce, tell them I said hello.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:03 AM
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155

Or maybe not. It's probably different people. That was twenty years ago.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:06 AM
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Across the street at Satisfaction is where I watched the 9/11 news but I didn't drink there because of all the basketball fans.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:07 AM
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157

Satisfaction shut down for good in 2018. That one was jarring.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:11 AM
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158

Huh. At least the stupid train overpass is still there.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:12 AM
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159

It is, but they raised it a whole 8 inches last fall.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:17 AM
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160

Those fuckers. That was the best part of working there. "Boom" and go outside to see who ruined the top of their truck.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:20 AM
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161

Just looked at Google maps. So many new buildings in that area.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:24 AM
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Seriously, you would barely recognize downtown. Or, for that matter, hardly any of the neighborhoods surrounding it.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:43 AM
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163

We hardly ever went to downtown because there was so little there.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 6:47 AM
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147: I think it's because she was out-of-town when she was injured. Can she contact her primary care doctor and have them refer her somewhere. I would think what she needs first is PT.

One of the truly evil things about the U.S. system is the amount of unpaid work families are expected to do. If your mother was super expensive and showed up in the ED all the time, they might assign her a case manager to make things simpler and to avoid wasteful care. (In fancy, these algorithms help white people but under-help black people who need care but were under-using it before, so they don't show up as high utilizes even though they need the help.)


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 9:52 AM
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165

Big 10 Football season is cancelled. IOW, the end of the world as we know it.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 9:57 AM
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166

I heard it was going to be Nebraska vs Iowa every week.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:13 AM
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This spring I saw stuff on Facebook like "Shutdown/mask-up now so we can have a football season."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:15 AM
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168

I landed an interview with a university in Canada. Please wish me luck.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:23 AM
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169

I landed an interview with a university in Canada. Please wish me luck.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:24 AM
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170

Wish me luck twice, it'll do me good.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:24 AM
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171

Good luck, Barry!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:30 AM
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172

Good luck, Barry!


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:30 AM
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173

171, 172: An historic first-time intentional double post.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:31 AM
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174

Best of luck on your moose hunting interview.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:33 AM
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I regret that our plans to drive North again for summer vacation were impossible.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:36 AM
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173 Hahah, much appreciated.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:38 AM
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I was about to ask if Barry would be allowed into Canada, when I realized it's almost certainly a Zoom interview.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:39 AM
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177: Sorry to talk about you while you're standing right there.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 10:39 AM
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Last time I was in the US was July 2019 so unless it's a blanket ban against US passport holders I could go though of course it's a zoom interview.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 11:32 PM
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Last time I was in the US was July 2019 so unless it's a blanket ban against US passport holders I could go though of course it's a zoom interview.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-10-20 11:32 PM
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|| Bleg - this is probably for Barry --asking for help in finding a Qur'an quote

This is from Shirin Ebadi's Nobel Lecture:

In the Koran the Prophet of Islam has been cited as saying: "Thou shalt believe in thine faith and I in my religion". That same divine book sees the mission of all prophets as that of inviting all human beings to uphold justice

What surah is this from? I can't find it on quran.com.

Thanks for any help, suggestions! ||


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 6:44 AM
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182

Ha, I know that surah by heart in Arabic (to be fair it's very short). It's the last line of Al-Kafirun "The Unbelievers" https://quran.com/109


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:11 AM
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182: Wow! Thanks, Barry!

Are the words for "faith" and "religion" different in Arabic? In the quran.com translation both words are translated as "religion".


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:15 AM
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184

Yes, faith is "iman" with connotations of surety, something that can be relied upon. Religion is "din" (the word used in this surah) with connotations of something customary, a way of life. Iman pertains to a state of knowledge and din the practice.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:24 AM
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185

And if the quran.com site mixes them up willy-nilly that's awful translation. The Qur'an is quite precise in the meanings of the words used in it, it builds a whole worldview from their contrast. A good fairly accessible book is Toshihiko Izutsu's "Ethico-religious concepts in the Quran" and also "God and man in the Koran" he unpacks these meanings and dualities masterfully.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:28 AM
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184: I'm confused -- does the word "din" appear twice in 109:6? In Ebadi's translation faith is what you believe, and religion is what I believe in.


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:37 AM
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Further to 184, so you could quite handily translate that line as "to you your way and to me mine". Now I'm wishing to check what Arberry did with it.And Michael Sells.

Ah, he chose "religion" but a couple of others "way". If I were to translate the Qur'an I would choose whichever I could keep consistent and also try to have related English terms for any other Arabic words in the Qur'an that are built on the D-Y-N trilateral root.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:38 AM
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Comparisons are here, http://www.alquranenglish.com/quran-surah-al-kafirun-6-qs-109-6-in-arabic-and-english-translation but no Michael Sells, alas. Great book he did of translations of the shorter very powerful early Meccan surahs called Approaching the Qur'an: the early revelations. He has a poets sensibility. I also like Arberry, he gets the majesty of the Arabic across.

186 yes twice in that last line: "Lakum (for you) dinukum (your religion) wa (and) liyya (for me my) din (religion).

Is that clear?


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:44 AM
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189

Din is a long i sound so deen might be better rendering in this quick and dirty transliteration (like the English word "dean")


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:45 AM
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188: Yes, it's clear now! Thank you!

(in case you're curious, my mother is translating Shirin Ebadi's Nobel Lecture into Hebrew)


Posted by: peep | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:46 AM
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191

And she gave you the job of being the din son.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:49 AM
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You're welcome and that's great, I'm glad to put my moribund Islamic studies knowledge to good use.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:50 AM
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Very interesting. Thanks, Barry.


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:50 AM
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BTW, Iman does not appear in that surah, just in case I wasn't clear.


Posted by: Barry Freed | Link to this comment | 08-12-20 7:51 AM
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