If you ask me, and maybe you shouldn't because I haven't watched any of the videos, it sounds like somebody spent too much time watching those anime things with the shouty young male protagonist defined by his intensity.
Also, among the hiking people, North Face is garbage. If you want to spend money on clothing, you get Patagonia.
Among the sorority girls in the late 90s at U of Mich, it was the sacred brand.
They probably haven't even seen a Python.
The nice thing about diamonds is that they sell them for amounts that are meaningfully expensive even for millionaires. De Beers is thoughtful about things like that.
Anyway, I find California confusing as a concept.
California feels like runaway selection sometimes. Other parts feel pretty relatable, though.
Do we still love each other if we're not going out to the best experiences that people, at our level of success, are attaining?
This part is not at all relatable to me.
If you want to spend money on clothing, you get Patagonia Arc'teryx.
That's for billionaires and Canadians.
Canibillionaires. Their soylent green is made of weed people.
I vaguely remember some Asian Ex-Googler ranting on YouTube about black people a while back, and am not surprised to learn that it's the same person.
This guy really seems to be at the turbulent interface between the Turing test and Poe's Law.
"What really puts me ahead is my testosterone," he says, in that aforementioned video. "And by testosterone I mean, intelligence." It is impossible to determine exactly how serious Shyu is ...
And it doesn't matter! Interiority is completely irrelevant! There's some "this guy is an alpha test" joke at my fingertips, but I can't quite make it work.
(To be clear, all this stuff is very pernicious, but to a great extent it's a function of YouTube's perniciousness, IMO. So I'm not trying to just laugh it off, but also, it's this mind-rattling ouroboros of man and machine.)
That's part of what is strange about it to me. Intelligence does not code 'testosteroney' or alpha in my world, even the parts of it that value intelligence above nearly all else.
This reads like a pale imitation of a more popular YouTuber, who originally had an honest teen following for his edginess, but seems to have slowly shifted to being popular mostly based on how eye-catchingly pathetic he is, and how much he could push his life off the rails. I've never watched him but he generates a penumbra of horrified commentary.
Intelligence does, however, code testosteroney for folks who value testosterone above all else.
Abandoning your children codes as masculine, but not if you whine about it.
If you want to spend money on clothing, you get Patagonia.
I recall it being referred to as "Patagucci" back in college.
9: I mostly buy Patagonianfor stuff that lasts, but I have a pair of Arcteryx pants called the Trina tight that I wear every day in the winter when I go for my morning walk. It layers great over my Patagonia long underwear. They weren't that expensive (maybe on sale?) and they are just amazing.
19: They will repair your stuff, though, which is nice. My 3 layer parka ( raincoat with a removable down lining) needs to go in, but they were closed when I would have had them fix it.
I had a cream fleece from them that got incredibly dirty. One day when I was working at the Human Services agency, the office administrator told me to take one of the ones from the donated pile of Patagonia clothes. I protested saying that those were for our clients, but he insisted, saying that none of our clients were that small.
The cream one was a medium, but the small works.
Millionaires have four-layer parkas. And eight-layer bean dip.
15 does sound like a widespread pitfall of the attention economy; there are probably a lot of them. Some would bottom out, while others could sustain themselves for a while on, among other things, pure shamelessness... I'm not sure how much more I actually want to know.
I didn't know about "Patagucci." I'm surprised Arc'teryx hasn't been sending me catalogs: for a few years I got the most amazing shit based on overspending at REI + ZIP code, I guess? Purely out of curiosity, is there an additional set of high-end winterwear brands in Europe, or is this the market worldwide? I guess I can spend the day sincerely wondering if I would be happier living closer to affordable skiing, why tf not, nothing matters
I like Rab, but there's also that Scandinavian one, Fjallraven.
22: I think the Swiss have brands which make North American clothing look like a bargain. Patagonia seems to be relatively less expensive than it was when I was a kid. Maybe LL Bean is a lot pricier than it was?
Anyway, growing up people very clearly coded intelligence as at best orthogonal to masculinity. I realize the internet has changed things for some groups, but I don't think it is universal. But I mostly didn't keep in touch with people like that, so I guess I can't tell what they think now.
I think the equation between intelligence and manliness is driven by men who are (often without good reason) very confident in their intelligence, and not at all in their manliness, and they're trying to parlay the one into the other.
Right. If they had a bigger dick, they wouldn't have named the language "Python".
Python is the Truck Nutz of the tech world.
26: Hmm. It's probably a bad idea to psychoanalyze public figures, but we're all thinking "Larry Summers," right?
Low-key though a lot of the stuff he says about what it's like working at Big Tech is pretty accurate.
I once talked with a woman who could probably be accurately described as in the halls of power by California standards, and her commentary on Gavin Newsom was his high level of smartness or sharpness, sounding exactly like all the encomia for Very Serious People one hears about on the blogcasts.
Of course that could have just been deliberately empty commentary for social purposes, given she wasn't obliged to tell me anything substantive.
If they had a bigger dick, they wouldn't have named the language "Python".
It's named for Monty Python.
Also, in my dotage, I find myself seeing things like this guy and thinking "hope he doesn't kill himself."
If he were more masculine, you'd be hoping he doesn't take out a city core if he does kill himself.
YouTube grift seems relatively benign to me, as these things go. Nobody's really getting scammed out of money (the advertisers may still make some sales, and of course Google is making a mint from serving the ads). The viewers are wasting their time and possibly misplacing their emotional investment, but that's happening all over the internet constantly in all sorts of ways already. What seems more pernicious about Shyu is the actual content of his ideology, to the extent that anyone watching is taking it seriously.
The testosterone/inteliigence cluster concept is definitely restricted to certain domains. Before the time of Python, I think the paradigm would be Wall Street? Asshole hustle, playing up quant skills as more difficult than they really are, aggressive indifference to all things not money.
35: Yeah, I think the robbing of people's minds through the Algorithm taking them down conspiracy primrose paths to keep them watching more videos is the systemic problem, not people subscribing to Patreons or buying merch.
Over break I did my first Patreon thing (the Sparta guy).
The testosterone/inteliigence cluster concept is definitely restricted to certain domains. Before the time of Python, I think the paradigm would be Wall Street? Asshole hustle, playing up quant skills as more difficult than they really are, aggressive indifference to all things not money.
Smartest guys in the room...
I'd say NMM2 Dawn Wells, but really now, isn't that taking the principle just a bit too far?
Military history is where I would go looking. (This parallel must have gotten some play already, "Odysseus gives a TED talk" etc.?)
Odysseus was also stranded on an island.
35: that's what I kept trying to figure out in reading the article (which was very entertaining) -- the author kept using the word "scam" but who is being scammed? I don't even understand how the concept of "scam" maps onto this. People watch YouTube videos to learn things or be entertained (or both). This guy is making videos that people want to watch, either because they think they are learning something or they are being entertained (or both). The videos are free. Advertisers are placing what are probably very-well-targeted ads. Who is being scammed? Maybe the scam is supposedly that the guy is selling a false worldview (so the people who think they are learning something useful, aren't actually), but it sounds like it's more just confessional videos of a sort. "Scam" seems like a strong word.
42 to 39.
Ogged, did you read the recent-ish Tony Hsieh profile? That one is genuinely kinda sad, and weird: he had enough money to hang himself with, basically.
Jewel [yes, the 90s singer], for one, expressed concern directly to him. "If the world could see how you are living, they would not see you as a tech visionary, they would see you as a drug addicted man who is a cliche. And that's not how you should go down or be known," she wrote in her letter to him. "Your body cannot take not sleeping. And the amount of N2O you are doing is not natural. You will not hack sleep and you will not outsmart nature."
I think if there's a continuum of grifts where 0 is completely transparent entertainment and 10 is selling $10,000 seminars for how to achieve a jet-setter level of wealth which impression you create entirely by video backdrops, Robert Kiyosaki is about a 4, and the guy in the OP is maybe 2, since he is explicitly trying to create the impression that he is teaching you how to be rich like him, even if he's not that good at it.
How much N2O does Jewel think people should have?
did you read the recent-ish Tony Hsieh profile
Yes. Super depressing. You have to figure that all happiness gurus are depressives, but winding up burning in a fire due to--what would you call it? dissolution?--is a bit much.
Lisa Loeb says one standard-sized can a week.
The scam is selling the idea that you need a million dollars to be miserable. Plenty of people are miserable with less than that.
50: But is it high quality artisanal misery? That might cost more.
Now I'm idly daydreaming about setting up a home snowboarding rug outside on the hill. How hard can it really be to rig one up with spare parts? Solar-powered engine? Surely I could do it for under $45K, buy a chic onesie with the savings, and be the envy of the neighborhood. That is what I call high quality artisanal misery.
The chic onesie in 52 doesn't even have a highly visible branding logo. How are people supposed to know its fancy?
If your eyes hover over it for 3 seconds, the logo appears. #alpha
Anyway, please feel free to change the subject if we've done this guy justice. The politics, the plague, whatever.
22, 23: Mammut has prices as big as the name implies, but the things I have gotten from them are wonderful and last forever, or until I leave the hat in a taxi. I'm pretty sure I have boggled at the prices of outdoorsy at Berlin's REI-equivalent named Globetrotter, which locally pronounced with four syllables. When things open up again, I'll go visit and report back.
Before we follow the good advice in 55, we should all read The Prodigal Tech Bro.
"A few months ago, I was contacted by a senior executive who was about to leave a marketing firm. He got in touch because I've worked on the non-profit side of tech for a long time, with lots of volunteering on digital and human rights. He wanted to 'give back'. Could I put him in touch with digital rights activists? Sure. We met for coffee and I made some introductions. It was a perfectly lovely interaction with a perfectly lovely man. Perhaps he will do some good, sharing his expertise with the people working to save democracy and our private lives from the surveillance capitalism machine of his former employers. ..."
Hey, it's Maria Farrell! That was really good.
"The market that Shyu is angling towards is clear"
It is? Not to me.
When my son was seriously into rock climbing, trekking in Nepal, and that sort of thing, he swore by Arcteryx. I love Fjällräven stuff but can't afford even that; in any case, it's best for forests rather than the open mountains.
I have an amazingly silly Norwegian skiing jacket from a brand called "Sweet Autonomy", which is very warm so it must be stuffed full of something more than bullshit marketing, or else bullshit is a wonderful insulator.
I take it all back about the Norwegians. It turns out that the French use the same insulation, and Arcteryx is advertising "The one piece. An icon of integration. The ultimate balance of style and protection. Combining technical expertise with emotional functionality."
Poor old Captain Scott, trudging through all those blizzards to his death because his sealskin undies lacked emotional functionality.
I was struck by an ex of my daughter's (whom I got to know fairly well and still see from tine to time) who navigated a very rocky educational path (no degree) and unstable family situation to a decent coding job who continually gets hooked on these type of YouTubers (literally Jordan Peterson at one point but my daughter deprogrammed him from that). He seems to get something from this "sort of*" stuff. Otherwise seems a fairly good-hearted kid, but I fear he will be all-in on (some thinly disguised) Republicanism (or whatever the then manifestation of conservative political evil will be ) in 20-30 years. Decidedly uncharitable of me, but I can see the seeds.
*I may be over-lumping, but there seems to be a genre of self-actualization type BS for real boys that a lot of this fits under. "The bad parts of you are your superpower if you have the balls to act them out" would be my characterization. Civil society is an anchor on the free, unfettered you.
I do respect my daughter's observation that Gamergate explains/illustrates the current world as well as any single event.
Speaking of the bad parts of me (and everyone). I find my self utterly (And inappropriately in any sane world) infuriated by the outpourings of sympathy for the foamily of the dead of COVID Congressman-elect from Louisiana. I am made of Gamergate overreaction. I am part of the evil, I am part of the coming crackup. But so be it; fuck that guy. I think it was the picture of Ted Cruz extolling a great day of hunting* in the context of this week that radicalized me.
My more polite reaction is voiced well by The Hoarse Whisperer: Why is the death of a 41-year old politician who *chose* to do public events without a mask drawing more public sympathy than the 100s of healthcare workers who have died because of behavior like his.
*Almost certainly the Texas equivalent of having a bunch of beaters flushing game in front of the waiting guns of the Victorian landed gentry.
64: I do feel sorry for his kids. His son looked about 2 or 3. I keep hoping his widow will turn into a champion of masks and mobilize for vaccination and Biden in a way that appeals to Republican women.
64: I also feel sorry for the Barron Trump in a different way. Neither of them chose their Dads.
65 and 66 are correct. But I have trouble generating anything above the default baseline sympathy I'd have for any kid in a bad situation.
67: No more, no less from me. Barron will need some of whatever money he gets, because he's going to need to pay for a LOT of therapy.
68: If he can ever acknowledge that he needs therapy that will be well over half the battle.
69: On the other hand, maybe he'd be happier thinking that he's perfect, and it will be just be the people around him, and maybe the whole world that will suffer.
63 https://twitter.com/TheZeroVirus/status/1344285017715961857
70: There's something about the look in his eyes in the pictures with his mother that makes me think that 69 will not be the case, but it's no guarantee of 68.
I was struck by an ex of my daughter's (whom I got to know fairly well and still see from tine to time) who navigated a very rocky educational path (no degree) and unstable family situation to a decent coding job who continually gets hooked on these type of YouTubers (literally Jordan Peterson at one point but my daughter deprogrammed him from that). He seems to get something from this "sort of*" stuff.
Not to be overly armchair Freudian, but I think that people who come from traumatic childhoods with dysfunctional parents are (sometimes) searching for concrete parental figures who can explain the world to them and given them certainties to hold on to.
In Barron's favor it doesn't seem like his father spent much time with him.
That's because Ivanka has the better body.
71: It's weird how he feel the need to explain it.
Fjallraven stuff is really heavy even if it looks good. That may be the correct choice for Scandinavian hiking (maybe they *are* more waterproof than Gore-Tex or whatever), but it's not really my preference for less rainy climates. Also ultralight down puffer jackets are inappropriate in Scandinavia and the British isles because they're useless when wet, but great in the American West.
I think they are many a lifestyle thing now. Waxed cotton or whatever is nobody's first choice for hiking in the rain. I use a silnylon poncho or jacket.
Arx'Whatever got bought out by non-Canadians so their quality went down and we don't like them any more (see also Sorel). MEC went lifestyle and then also sold themselves off? Somehow, in spite of being a coop and giving no warning?
Patagonia and LLBean are where it's at now. And Canada Goose if you have a spare $1500.
Many of the Asian students had Canada Goose last winter. Forty degrees out and they're wearing a parka.
That's nothing, in California I'd regularly see people donning puffer jackets when it's 65F.
You'll all be shocked to discover that I have zero opinions on this topic. My Old Navy puffer has served me very well over several years.
Anyway, I have an REI one that I use for hiking and travel, but everybody else in the house has one from Patagonia because they are fancier.
80: Huh, didn't know that about Arc'teryx. LL Bean seconded.
Wool is attractive because the downside to all these new fabrics is they're noisy as hell and I'd like to actually see some wildlife when I'm in the mountains. Canada comes through with Big Bill but they make next to nothing for women. Johnson Woolen Mill in VT is nice stuff but definitely more wince on the price, although the built quality is great.
https://www.gostwear.com/hunting-c-86.html
https://johnsonwoolenmills.com/
True story. Both of those links are apparently places I have already been.
Nice, you still hiking? I seem to remember someone (not you) scoffing at the idea that regular cotton clothing like fleece lined jeans was a good way to get yourself killed if you got wet and cold. "But I wear that stuff all the time in (insert city)".
I spent this year working and volunteering for Biden, but I'm still shopping like I'm hiking.
Was it hydro who mentioned the other day having a story for every item?
I have a 20 year old Eddie Bauer down jacket for every day wear, but a Patagonia waterproof jacket for downhill skiing. (The Patagonia has a dressier look, so I wear that sometimes if it seems like a good idea.) Switched from frayed 10 year old North face ski pants to Patagonia, because I had a case last year in the small town a couple hours away that happens to have an outlet store, and the sales can be good. I bought a lighter Marmot jacket a few years ago because I wanted something red, and because I met the founders backpacking in Colorado in the mid-70s. I have a lightweight Patagonia given to me by the manufacturer of the fabric, who I'd been representing in a case having to do with jackets sold to the Marine Corps.
In fact, I lost my puffer jacket this past fall, and debated trying out a new style but decided I wanted the exact same thing, so I found it on ebay and bought it. Ten minutes later Jammies found it on the back deck, where it had been for the past month. I swear I had looked everywhere, and even asked a colleague to check in my office at work. (Have I mentioned that we all have master keys? It's very weird but convenient.) Anyway, I was able to cancel the ebay order because it was within a 30 minutes window or something.
Every article does have a story!
I also have an older Eddie Bauer down jacket (closer to 30 years old), but I almost never wear it. It needs to get well below freezing before I can stand to have the thing on and it is that cold here maybe five times a decade.
It makes me look like an extra in Fargo.
I like wool if weight isn't a concern and in rainy climes (so, really, mostly for city use), but my big trips are usually for 7 days in a dry climate, and there's nothing that compresses better and has a better weight-to-insulation ratio than down.
I still have a lot of Golite clothing and gear. It hit the spot for not overly expensive ultralight stuff. Really sad when they folded.
The company so nice they folded twice.
Last summer I bought myself a Filson coat (used). It's like wearing a wool blanket. But I'd never take it for an overnight trip.
Anyway, when I do go hiking, I don't worry about down because I'm not wearing it in the rain. If it is warm enough to rain, there's no way I wear it while moving.
I have an REI puffer/down sweater that I like a lot (so much that I sent it out of state to a specialty shop to be repaired when it tore), but for day-to-day use I've mostly been wearing my Carhartt.
In the before times, all the hip bartenders who Carhartt stuff.
Stupid phone. Wore Carhartt stuff.
Moby's such a hipster even his phone wears Carhartt.
i am eagerly awaiting the full re-opening of the south end rowing club here in sf bc until them i am swimming from the bleachers, so getting by with cheap clothes i wouldn't cry over if stolen. there isn't rampant theft, but it does happen. who steals clothes and towels from swimmers paddling about in 52 f water? total dicks. luckily hasn't happened to me yet.
currently getting by with two wool sweaters (underneath one relatively thin and with turtleneck, outer one thick), fleece lined jeans from some cheap hunting outfitter (adore adore adore bc they cut the wind on the bike ride to and, most critically, from the park), a wool balaclava and wool watchmen's hat under my helmet, wool-silk scarf that probably wasn't cheap originally but no one wants to wear it for nice anymore so it's been condemned to permanent saltiness, cheap as chips puffy vest from uniqlo, hyper reflective bike jacket bc dark when cycling to the park*, purportedly down-filled mittens although they were pretty inexpensive so i have my doubts but they are warm and not that much of a pain in the ass to get into when hands are saltwater damp and marginally functional, two pairs of wool-alpaca-acrylic socks (difficult to get on post-swim but my god so necessary) and cheap, short waterproof boots that are ace bc can be rinsed free of sand.**
wool is the ticket as an underlayer, bc still insulates even when damp/wet, although the jeans are remarkably effective if hilariously hideous - i got them big bc need to be easy to get into and honestly that button is challenging, and have to use my left hand for the zipper most mornings, my right hand is somewhat useless once i've been in for 30 min at current temps. i dream of a much warmer vest, mostly, and would definitely be tempted by wool-lined, wind-resistant pants once don't have to worry about somebody nicking them.
thinking about the club eventually reopening, i do wonder how enthused i'll be about the sauna. on the one hand, sooooo dreamy! all that heat and breathing in heated air, would rewarm in much less time!*** on the other hand, i have very much enjoyed not getting colds and other non-plague respiratory infections. with everything we know now about aerosol transmission, the sauna takes on a new aspect as a hyper efficient germ transmission environment.
*this wasn't exactly cheap but oh my god is it reflective and its use is required by my better half, he took one look at it blinding away in daylight in the shop and was like "right, one of those." look like a total dork.
**it is a drag to be the only plausible source of any sand drifting about the house, so sand containment strategies are super important.
***switched up my routine earlier this week and took a bath when first got home, before coffee and porridge. usually a hot bath is much more efficient at rewarming than a shower, so i couldn't understand why the water kept getting so damn cold! finally realized that *i* was cooling the water. the difference between 20-25 min more of moving about warmly dressed and getting a hot beverage and hot porridge in the belly, meant my core was still cold enough to cool the bath water right quick.
I've been wearing LL Bean wool hunting pants pretty much all winter (except for work and such) for three years. It's great.
oh those look great, except for they don't seem to have them in women's sizes and the smallest men's size would require suspenders to keep them up on me. points for being easy to get on, though! now i'm on the search for women's wool hunting pants with an insulating lining, maybe i could get some cheap on ebay ...
Honestly, they're heavy enough that suspenders aren't a bad idea even if they sit at your waist.
oh my god have fallen in love with navy blue hunting knickers 😍😍😍 but vold calves 🥶🥶 🥶. oversized men's with suspenders looking promising! thanks mobes!
Finding wool hunting/outdoor pants for women is a pain in the ass. I was going to get my daughter some of the Johnson Mill pants but on their website the sizes start at a freaking 10. Are only giant Nordic chicks buying these? Only other option I know of offhand is First Lite.
https://www.firstlite.com/products/womens-obsidian-pant
couldn't get firstlite website to work & have snagged vintage possibly-johnson-mills off ebay already, hopefully in a size allowing no-botton-or-zip putting on with some suspenders, while still allowing biking up a couple of big ass sf hills post-swim lol. i'd try ebay for your daughter, likely to have a wide range of smaller trousers from before the great enbulkening of us-ians. and vintage johnson mills mmmmmm ace quality. that pair of high waisted navy knickerbockers is sweeeet and with a 28" waist!
Well, today's browser history will convince the trackers that I'm off to hunt chamois. (I was confirming that chamois are in the family of animals referred to in our home as "goatelopes." they are.) Last time I checked LL Bean, I was too puny for their smallest sizes; possibly this year's inactivity has changed this story, uh, hooray.
||
So I cancelled/postponed a much-anticipated kid hike this morning because I've had very mild but persistent cold symptoms for a few days, and I'm going to get a covid test at 2:20, then scurry back home. All adults involved are forgiving and supportive but I still feel like an asshole. It's amazingly hard to make life suck for your kids every goddamn day because of incalculable risks. Did I call this one correctly?
|>
oh man lk, super hoping it's negative. what a drag.
110.2: You did the right thing, lk. Sending negative vibes.
Hope you feel better and test negative.
Because I'm incurably cool, I wear a leather jacket for most winter weather. Suitable for all but the most formal social/public occasions, almost as warm as a puffy coat, almost as aerodynamic as a sweatshirt. That might seem silly to care about but I commuted by bike in the before time. I have a puffy coat for when I genuinely need winter wear. I just checked the label and it says Black Ice, if that means anything to anyone.
Because I'm incurably cool, I wear a leather jacket for most winter weather. Suitable for all but the most formal social/public occasions, almost as warm as a puffy coat, almost as aerodynamic as a sweatshirt. That might seem silly to care about but I commuted by bike in the before time. I have a puffy coat for when I genuinely need winter wear. I just checked the label and it says Black Ice, if that means anything to anyone.
115, 116: Until now, I didn't realize how cool double-posting is.
I've regularly worn LL Bean wool hunting pants in winter for over a decade. The only thing they've lacked is a liner to block the wind. But a layer of long underwear takes care of that when needed.
I have a nearly (gulp) 16-year-old The North Face puffy coat, and it seems like it's leaps and bounds ahead of TNF quality recently. I'm undecided about Patagonia, and Ar'c'te'r'yx seems to start their skiing shells at $400 and I just can't imagine them being worth it outside of the lodge. shiv used to swear by Helly Hansen for -50C Canadian winters back when he used to be a real man. My ski gear is all Liquid but I don't know much about the brand.
It seems that a lot of these brands get fashionable and then go to pot.
DQ: Uniqlo makes lined athletic pants - fleece inside and kinda water-resistant outside. I love my pairs for active outdoor stuff when i don't need spandex or much stretch. If I lived closer to a Uniqlo I'd have their down jacket for sure. Currently signaling my hipness is more important than signally my outdoorsyness (it's a small town and everyone knows where I work). That said, gov't issued long-johns are perfect WFH gear. Actually any long-johns. REI men's are lovely too.
Surprising me, I hate my goretex jacket. I'd rather wear a rain coat for wind proofness.
I don't own any real down because we're the worst weather for it and umbrellas
The best time to buy outdoor gear was 10 years or more ago.
Thanks... rapid test negative, PCR test coming & most likely negative too -- rapid false negative rate is ~20%. So I guess this is either a cold or my immune system throwing an unmotivated diva tantrum about an inhaled speck of dust? It has been pretty pampered this year.
Cold, allergies, dust in the eye, lisinopril-related cough. It's been a shitty year for me with the "covid or minor" game too.
hooray lk! thinking negatively for the pcr results.
re outdoors wear, anything involving stretching over damp salty limbs like long underwear is a no go, nothing slips & hands don't work great or much. & tbh the air isn't that cold here! overnight in the mid to high 40s. it's being wet in the wind & ummm internally chilled ;-). feel great on immediately exiting the water, but about 5-10 minutes later, ai yi yi.
i have hopes for these oversized wool trousers & some sturdy suspenders, slip those puppies up under my towel & off to the races!
I've never actually worn suspenders with them, so let me know how that works.