Re: Guest Post -- Memorial vs Armistice Day

1

My first ancestor in America got land in Nebraska for serving in the GAR. Or laboring for them. My dad said he wasn't an actual soldier, but he must have done something useful. The useless people got land in Kansas.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 6:11 AM
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Estimates for Paraguayan casualties in the war it fought in the mid 19th century versus Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay, range from 7% to 60% of the total population, with higher percentages for males. There's probably some Genghiz Khan types there who are ancestors of >50% of Paraguayans today.


Posted by: No Longer Middle Aged Man | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:21 AM
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For the US, how and where is Memorail day observed? Is the CW substratum still there, or obscured by subsequent wars? How do you handle the CSA? Are things observed differently in different states?


Posted by: MC | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:32 AM
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It's not really observed so far as I've experienced. It's mostly the first day of summer.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:35 AM
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I mean, I didn't work and I still got paid. So my employer observed it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:37 AM
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Memorail will deliver memos to everyone's desks via cars running on dedicated rail lines bored through the walls and floors of your office. The same cars will return bitcoin-loaded USB drives for payment.


Posted by: Opinionated Elon Musk | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:39 AM
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As I mentioned in the other thread, our state Superintendent of Public Instruction celebrated by going to Little Bighorn to honor our fallen heroes at the Custer National Cemetery. Post CW then.

I would say that there are levels of public observance -- but imo it's not really any different from Veterans Day. Mass observance, though, takes the form of BBQs and a long weekend at the beach.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:45 AM
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I suppose if I hadn't visited my dad's grave recently and were in the right state, I would have done so on Memorial Day. We did use to visit graves, but never limited to those killed in war or veterans.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:46 AM
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7.1: Do they self-identify with the genocide or the extremely poor planning?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:48 AM
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not really any different from Veterans Day
Meaning?


Posted by: Opinionated Elon Musk | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:49 AM
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3: Barbecue, plus maybe some little flags. You'd be hard put to recognize the military implications.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:49 AM
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10 I don't think the differences between the speeches that the President will give at Arlington for MD and VD respectively are material, or materially related to the origins of the holidays. Maybe I'm wrong about this: I'm usually busy eating BBQ and don't watch the speeches.

9 She's an elected Republican so probably both. Won on a platform of winking and nodding contempt for public education. Definitely both.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 8:02 AM
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So the Memorial is not actually memorialized? Are there ceremonies in schools/churches? Laying of wreaths by public officials? Readings of lists of dead alumni? Moments of silence? Playings of the Last Post?


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 8:15 AM
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Public officials lay wreaths, yes.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 8:17 AM
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I'm sure there are ceremonies in church, but after Sunday, I really don't feel called to do a whole new service the next day. Schools are closed.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 8:24 AM
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seems like the bggest difference is Armistice Day not being a public holiday.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 8:28 AM
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It is a federal holiday but schools usually go on. It's called Veterans Day.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 8:40 AM
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I remember Eric Hobsbawm leading off some discussion of military deaths in the 20th century, something like: "According to American historians, who like to measure this sort of thing..."


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 8:43 AM
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And then he ate beans on toast.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 8:55 AM
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When I was a kid, we would go put up flags all over town on Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, the 4th, and Flag Day.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 9:23 AM
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US flags only?


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 9:24 AM
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Yes. It was just a line of U.S. flags down main street.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 9:26 AM
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The Mossheimat Armistice had no flags on streets, but ceremonies had flags of at least some Allies. (Including the USSR, on one unfortunate occasion.)


Posted by: MC | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 9:35 AM
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3: I believe Memorial Day was an attempt to get Confederate sympathizers and everyone else to memorialize together on the same day, and make enmity disappear into a fuzzy white glow. Originally a lot of the celebrations in the North were specific to the US cause, and that was tamped down.

Then Veteran's Day came as a specific remembrance of WWI (Armistice Day). But by now it's more or less merged with Memorial Day in who or what, if anything, is being commemorated. The main practical difference now is very few Veteran's Day barbecues, because November.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 9:37 AM
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When I was a kid we used to go up to Farmington to decorate the family graves. That's a fairly common practice. Otherwise it's mostly considered a generic day off and the unofficial beginning of summer. There's not much popular awareness of the origins of the holiday or its connection to the Civil War specifically.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 10:14 AM
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Aren't there a lot of businesses that connect it to veterans at least? "We salute our veterans with this sale", that sort of junk.


Posted by: Minivet | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 10:19 AM
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Like Columbus Day sales that start with. "We love murderous Italians."


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 10:38 AM
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26: Sure, but that's a pretty low level of awareness. There's probably at least as much promotional material oriented around it as a summer barbecuing holiday.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 10:56 AM
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Growing up I remember ceremonies in the local cemeteries and wreaths getting laid on graves. I probably only remember it because playing "Taps" is part of the tradition and I played the trumpet as a kid, though. These days personally my observance is just taking a day off work. No one would want me to dig up my trumpet and bring it anywhere.


Posted by: Cyrus | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:06 AM
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For people who are interested, David Blight's chapter on Decoration Day in Race and Reunion is very, very good and has a long tail in the literature and the broader discourse.


Posted by: von wafer | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:12 AM
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When I was in high school band we always marched in the Memorial Day parade. The parade still exists -- but I don't think my current city has one.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:18 AM
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When I was in high school band we always marched in the Memorial Day parade. The parade still exists -- but I don't think my current city has one.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:18 AM
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I walked in a parade this Memorial Day, as I am technically a local dignitary. The high school marching band was unfortunatly not in great form, having missed a lot of practice due to covid. But they had a simple medley of patriotic songs that they played over and over again, and the effort was appreciated.

Then we all stood around the war memorial and there were some wreaths and a salute was fired and we were solemn for a bit.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:20 AM
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34

I hope you didn't point out how badly they sucked.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:28 AM
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It was pointed out to me.


Posted by: Spike | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:39 AM
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Hopefully there was a float with a banner about it.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:47 AM
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24: See Frederick Douglss's Decoration Day speech of 1871.

The essence and significance of our devotions here to-day are not to be found in the fact that the men whose remains fill these graves were brave in battle. If we met simply to show our sense of bravery, we should find enough on both sides to kindle admiration. In the raging storm of fire and blood, in the fierce torrent of shot and shell, of sword and bayonet, whether on foot or on horse, unflinching courage marked the rebel not less than the loyal soldier.

But we are not here to applaud manly courage, save as it has been displayed in a noble cause. We must never forget that victory to the rebellion meant death to the republic. We must never forget that the loyal soldiers who rest beneath this sod flung themselves between the nation and the nation's destroyers. If today we have a country not boiling in an agony of blood, like France, if now we have a united country, no longer cursed by the hell-black system of human bondage, if the American name is no longer a by-word and a hissing to a mocking earth, if the star-spangled banner floats only over free American citizens in every quarter of the land, and our country has before it a long and glorious career of justice, liberty, and civilization, we are indebted to the unselfish devotion of the noble army who rest in these honored graves all around us.


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 11:52 AM
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Some asshole brought a treason flag to an observance yesterday at Natick, Massachusetts' Civil War memorial. People were and are pissed off about it.

"Confederate Memorial Day" is still a holiday in some states.

It is an official state holiday in Alabama, Mississippi, and South Carolina; while it is commemorated in Kentucky, Florida, North Carolina, Texas, and Tennessee. It was also formerly recognized in Georgia, Louisiana, and Virginia. For most states, the official date is or was April 26, when the last major Confederate field army surrendered at Bennett Place, North Carolina in 1865.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Memorial_Day


Posted by: md 20/400 | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 3:54 PM
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39

to memorialize together on the same day, and make enmity disappear into a fuzzy white rainbow glow


Posted by: MC | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 4:09 PM
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I don't suppose uniting against a common history of British oppression is an option?


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 5:39 PM
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In the United States, we commemorate Memorial Day by complaining that Democrats fail to pay the proper respect and observe Memorial Day weekend without golfing.


Posted by: politicalfootball | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 6:31 PM
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The Mossheimat Armistice had no flags on streets, but ceremonies had flags of at least some Allies. (Including the USSR, on one unfortunate occasion.)

One of the main streets in Downtown Pittsburgh is called Boulevard of the Allies, named for the WWI Allies. Some years back--I thought for some hundredth anniversary or another, but it predates that--they put up flags of all the Allies along it. That's a pretty uncommon thing to see in the US. I'm pretty sure it included a flag to represent China, and I'm almost certain they used the five color republican flag. Think that's the only time I've ever seen it flown.

Not necessarily specifically related to Memorial Day or Veterans Day, but some of the boroughs around Pittsburgh (Munhall, a few others) would put up banners on the lampposts with pictures of a local boy who died in one of the wars. Uncanny when you can see them stretch off into the distance. Here in North London, there'll sometimes be a small unobtrusive sign listing the men who lived on that street who died in WWI.


Posted by: dalriata | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 6:54 PM
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We have to specify that it isn't WWII allies or we get accused of supporting antifa.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 1-21 7:12 PM
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42.3. In MA, there are a lot of "squares" (actually intersections) named after local soldiers who were killed in WW1 and later wars. Lots of Vietnam deaths, etc. I'd never seen that before coming here.

As for Memorial Day, a neighbor set off some (illegal) fireworks.


Posted by: DaveLMA | Link to this comment | 06- 2-21 5:39 AM
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42: Small town down the hill from us has the banners. They used to have memorial Day parade. Not sure if it happened this year, however.


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06- 2-21 7:21 AM
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I'll speculate the US variation above largely tracks US demographic history: whether or not a given city/town/institution existed at the time of a given war, and how much its population has expanded since. So, relatively high density of fatalities in the NE, lower in the SE (for the post-CW conflicts at least), lower still west of the Mississippi.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06- 2-21 8:55 AM
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Another potential issue is that lots of the midwest is populated with more recent (shortly before WWI) German immigrants.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 2-21 9:31 AM
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42.1. Why unfortunate? Like it or not, it was the Red Army that won the damn war in the European theatre, and if the Ukranians or Kazakhs or Mossheimaters don't like it they can win the next one, but history is history and if you don't like it, too bad.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06- 2-21 11:06 AM
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Thanks to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the USSR gave the Germans the resources necessary to bring the war to the Ukranians, the Kazakhs, and (perhaps) the Mossheimaters, so it's a bit simplistic to say that the Soviets won the war.


Posted by: Walt Someguy | Link to this comment | 06- 2-21 11:10 AM
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48: Setting aside 49, and the general atrociousness of the regime: the ceremony in question also commemorated WWI and the "Border War"* in Angola; in WWI the USSR did not exist, and its founders were for most purposes German co-belligerents; in Angola the USSR was an enemy, the dead commerated most likely killed by Soviet-trained troops with Soviet-supplied weapons.
Most importantly though, the USSR no longer exists, and its legal succesor is the Russian Federation; I would have no objection to the flying of a Russian flag. In fairness one should also fly the flags of the Soviet successor republics, but there definitely weren't 14 flagpoles to spare.
*Whose motives one might deem unjust, and therefore not worth commemoration; but it was in fact commemorated, so those were the rules of this particular game.


Posted by: Mossy Character | Link to this comment | 06- 2-21 11:33 AM
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Mossheim is one of the nine worlds, right? Reagan famously said they'd stood beside us in every war we've ever fought because, well, I guess he was thinking of France.


Posted by: CharleyCarp | Link to this comment | 06- 2-21 3:21 PM
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French killed WW1: 1,900,000 ; total population 39,000,000. But who cares about a bunch of surrender monkeys who don't speak English.


Posted by: chris y | Link to this comment | 06- 3-21 4:55 AM
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OP last to 52.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06- 3-21 5:08 AM
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Plus, we're still mad about how Pétain turned into an regional manager for the Nazis.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 3-21 5:33 AM
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On the topic of Memorial Day, this is really something.


Posted by: ogged |
Link to this comment | 06- 3-21 7:02 AM
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It's not something I say aloud much, but white people are broken.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 3-21 7:09 AM
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The speaker was an old white guy, at least? Committed racists don't want to hear anything that makes them uncomfortable even from old white guys.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 3-21 7:14 AM
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I just mean on average.


Posted by: Moby Hick | Link to this comment | 06- 3-21 7:15 AM
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55: Sad to see. A very old Western Reserve town (Western Reserve Academy is there) with a New England look. Become a very affluent Cleveland.

I blame Connecticut ...


Posted by: JP Stormcrow | Link to this comment | 06- 3-21 9:24 AM
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David Diop, an International Booker Prize finalist for his novel "At Night All Blood Is Black," is among the writers whose work is helping France face its history with Africa.
venturing out every night to murder a German soldier
Not murder! Stupid NYT.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 06- 6-21 2:10 AM
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