Re: Fact

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his very blue, very Manhattan cocoon.

AFAIK, this stereotype doesn't exist in the MidSouth, either. Nor in Japan, I think, where street racing and rally racing are hot trends, and have been for some time.

A counterfactual to your absolutist position, if a somewhat ambivalent one.

Japan does not have a great record when it comes to producing F1 drivers so it is perhaps something of a mixed compliment to say that Toranosuke Takagi is the probably the best of the bunch.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 1:07 AM
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he doesn't read every comment at Unfogged?

Maybe someone should offer him that fellowship that's been mentioned a few times.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 1:39 AM
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I've also never encountered Asians as bad drivers. They're reputed to be heavily into car modifications & all the flashy custom cars are "riced" out. I have several Asian friends within the scene.


Posted by: aspyre | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 5:17 AM
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I am familiar with the bad-drivers thing but am more personally acquainted with the car mod thing.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 8:07 AM
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I think on the one hand driving is just not a big topic of conversation in New York, on the other, I believe that stereotype has died out in recent years.

I'm now wondering if it's even a little taboo to talk about driving in NYC--that's something suburban types talk about.


Posted by: ac | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 8:26 AM
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I didn't know it either, but I believe it now—you should have seen how this guy totally cleared the yard. Hit the front door and everything. Those guys make some dynamite General Tso's, though.


Posted by: Kriston | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 8:35 AM
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Asians who immigrated here = bad drivers (no surprise).

Young Asian males who grew up in the U.S. = great drivers from a skill perspective, but reckless as hell. The "riced out" thing is for real, but you'd only know about it if you're young and grew up in a civilized place like SoCal or NJ. (Chicago - not civilized enough.)

Asian women = bad drivers, regardless of age or whether or not they grew up here. You'll get no argument on this point from anyone, including Asian males.


Posted by: JP | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:14 AM
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I think the "asian = bad driver" thing must be regional. Around these parts we've got a ton of Hmong immigrants but the "bad driver" stereotype is reserved for Iowans.


Posted by: Tripp | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:16 AM
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JP's take is exactly the same as mine.

Iowans? That's funny. No one in the Midwest knows how to drive, except for young Asian males.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:24 AM
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There's a fairly thriving "rice" scene in the Twin Cities, both serious sttreet racers and those wannabes who just go for the look (tinted windshields, dropped as close to the ground, high spoiler, etc.).


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:35 AM
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Now this will be absurd coming from me, but is anyone else uncomfortable with calling the mod-ed cars "riced out"? (Have also heard "rice rocket" for Japanese motorcycles; also "rice dick" to disparage Asian men's penis size.) Or is this what the scenesters themselves call it (but then is it a case like blacks can use the n-word, but no one else can?)?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:38 AM
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One of the dumbest things you can do is deny that people are seeing what they think they're seeing, unless you have knockout reasons for doing so.

Do you really think the "all asians are bad drivers" stereotype stems from watching all asians on the road and judging them to be deficient, or from noticing deficient drivers here and there and noting them to be asian? I suspect it's the latter, which isn't a great way to make a generalization. So, yeah, it's questionable for reasons of methodology, not because anyone's denying the observations.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:42 AM
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Well, scenesters do drive around with bumper stickers saying "Got Rice?" (taking off on the milk ads). My Korean buddy is not bothered when I use the term in his presence. Oddly, I am semi-uncomfortable using "rice rocket," which strikes me as intentionally derogatory.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:43 AM
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On reflection, I don't think any native-born New Yorker would think to disparage the driving skills of any ethnic group. We all drive badly, and it's a point of pride -- shows we're the real deal, not one of these ersatz New Yorkers who moves to town after college.


Posted by: Matthew Yglesias | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:44 AM
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Well, 5 and 14 are interesting: New Yorkers look down on driving per se. Is this true? It would be a huge divide between New Yorkers and the rest of the country, where driving (and cars) is usually so important, and where so many people actively like to drive.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:47 AM
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is anyone else uncomfortable with calling the mod-ed cars "riced out"?

yes, but i wasn't going to say anything.


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:47 AM
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Michael, I can pick out the Asian drivers based on their driving; obviously, there are plenty of Asians who drive just fine, including some kick-ass Asian women that I've seen, but there certainly is a distinctively bad Asian driving style.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 9:48 AM
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Ogged, should I stipulate that I agree with you that questioning someone's judgemental methodology isn't the kind of thing one does while interacting with a brief acquaintence?

That's interesting about the drivers in Top Secret Location. Any idea about the origin of most Asians in your vicinity? (chinese, korean, philipino, etc..)


Posted by: Michael | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 10:05 AM
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In my town, the overwhelming majority are Japanese (we even have Japanese cops and homeless people); in the larger metro area, it's diverse.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 10:08 AM
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I went to high school in Manhattan but lived in an outer borough (Queens), and I noticed that it marked you out as an outer borough person to a) own and b) talk about cars. It was kind of a class thing. Which was all the more apparent because some truly clueless people would try to show off by discussing cars. It was like bragging about your large gold jewelry--a complete misreading of the markers of status.


Posted by: ac | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 10:10 AM
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ersatz New Yorkers who moves to town after college

Hey, I resemble that remark. Though I'm careful to note the suburbaness of my origins when appropriate. Also, it's not New Yorkers, but just Manhattanites, who never have a reason to learn to drive. Probably Staten Island to, but in the other three boroughs people drive. I grew up aware of the asians are bad drivers stereotype, and I think rice-rocket is deragatory, but not anti-asian. It's anti-"everything that isn't a Harley or looks like a Harley." I could imagine someone applying "rice rocket" to a Ducati, and not being called on it.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 10:11 AM
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Damn cross-posts.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 10:12 AM
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With you on update number 2, Ogged.

Besides, the woman had a car sitting on her daffodils, and nearly in her living room. Not the time to lecture her on cultural tolerance.


Posted by: susan | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 10:34 AM
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With NY drivers, they're not bad. They're crazy. NJ drivers are bad and crazy. It's ten times worse. Of course, anyone in an SUV from either of those places is a maniac, and should generally be avoided while driving.


Posted by: tweedledopey | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 10:54 AM
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Of course, anyone in an SUV from either of those places is a maniac

Swap you for a German in a super SUV doing 120mph... I know the phrase has connotations not intended here, but really... "Freie Fahrt für freie Bürgher"


Posted by: Austro | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 11:10 AM
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With NY drivers, they're not bad. They're crazy.

Agreed, it takes serious skill to make it on the streets of manhattan. I used to drive my motorcycle in to Manhattan for work and it could be hairy. But then I could just roll it up on the sidewalk next to my building and park for free.

My driving instructor in high school was an asian immigrant (and such a racist asshole), so I don't have quite the same stereotype of asian drivers. But the wives of asian grad students in the university towns where I've lived are uniquely bad.


Posted by: cw | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 12:53 PM
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Another high school story. My next door neighbor pulled a similar stunt, in that he missed the turn going around a corner, drover someone's yard, scraped along the front door and front of their house, drove across the neighbor's yard back out to the street, went round the block, pulled into his driveway and went into his house. The police weren't too happy with him.

His serious substance abuse probably had something to do with his inability to make a simple right hand turn. Maybe a factor in Matt's story?


Posted by: cw | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 12:58 PM
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Too-slow easily-panicked describes exactly my bad driving. I'm not Asian, but I am the genetic product of an Iowan and a native New Yorker.


Posted by: L. | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 1:14 PM
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Tripp - you and I are from the same place, and I remember distinctly the Hmong = bad driver stereotype. But it was an 80s thing, which means to me either:

a) It's really a "recent immigrant" stereotype.

or

b) Who even notices how bad the Hmong drive when there are 60,000 Somali's on the road?


Posted by: msw | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 3:43 PM
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Who even notices how bad the Hmong drive when there are 60,000 Somali's on the road?

I love America.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 3:45 PM
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I wonder what thing 60,000 Somalis might collectively own, and why they would leave it on the road.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 3:46 PM
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Wouldn't that be 60,000 things owned by one Somali, young Ben?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 3:49 PM
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Random punctuation - it's an Irish thing.


Posted by: msw | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 3:50 PM
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hey look a pony!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 3:50 PM
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Really, it wouldn't be either.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 3:50 PM
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Probably not, but if there had been a "turds" between "Somali's" and "on" we would have known what he meant (and marveled at the mysterious Somali).


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 3:53 PM
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My experience from within the motorcycle community is that "rice"-based terminology parallels the n-word or "faggot" in the sense that those within the derided group have reappropriated those terms and often use them with pride, while those outside the group are generally being bigoted. Back when I rode "Jap crap" I often used "rice burner" and such, but now that my bike is made in USA I have to be very careful about use/mention.

I don't think it can be excused as just deriding non-HDs, because stickers about "rice-grinders" are often accompanied by stickers like "two bombs wasn't enough." The sad thing is that a lot of Japanese Harley riders put these stickers on their helmets without knowing what they mean.

Not sure about the usage in the four-wheeled community though.


Posted by: Big Ben | Link to this comment | 05-18-05 6:32 PM
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Asian women tourist in a minivan with kids while talking on a cell phone- by far every driver's nightmare.


Posted by: Daedalus | Link to this comment | 05-20-05 5:02 PM
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