Had Henley known that Unf goes to work everyday dressed as Captain Adama, his response would no doubt have been more temperate.
Um, gosh, that's so funny.
Because if you like science fiction, see, you must dress up in costumes, and be an idiot. I'm sure that needed explaining, and that the explanation makes clear how entirely hilarious this unique and original sort of comment is.
Goshwowboyohboy.
Gary:
It was an homage to Henley (whose blog I love) by reference to his devotion to BSG. That's all it was. If I could have thought of something else idiosyncratic about Henley that I could have referenced, I would have.
Thanks to your condescending sarcasm, Gary, I have been cleansed of my inaccurate prejudice. Good work!
This chart is helpful to keep things straight.
"Thanks to your condescending sarcasm, Gary, I have been cleansed of my inaccurate prejudice. Good work!"
I've always expected it works that way, so thanks!
My responses to 3 were unpleasant, so I won't make them.
joe o, the only chart that even begins to work is the larger one. It's still not so great, but it offers clues.
I do, of course, believe SCMT was posting in good faith. That doesn't prevent, however [the rest deleted again, see 2].
I'll try to walk away now. Walks are good. They can cause thoughts to go elsewhere than about being 13 years old and being beaten up because of what you read and later mockery insisting you must be an idiot who wears costumes because you like skiffy, and hearing that sort of thing some thousands of times later. They can distract you from memories of having your comments dismissed by jerks who characterize you that way. They can move you off of over-reactions.
Walks are good.
And, yes, I did delete my previous comments, and these aren't remotely like them. They were, well, rude. I try to only be rude when it's deserved.
(Hint: I have two comments presently high on Henley's blog debating his most recent comments about BSG; somehow I didn't treat his opinions as if I thought he were an infantile moron, though, or suggest that -- ohohoho, it's so funny! -- he wants to wear a costume.)
Does this have any bearing on Unf's original comment being almost completely unobjectionable and clearly correct in this case? Would anyone in fact have been made happy if New London had simply acquired the property and then *auctioned it off*? Answer: no.
Did anyone here suggest that anyone is an infantile moron, even under the least charitable of interpretations? Is it really possible to construe SCMT's comment as ill-natured or mocking (where ribbing is not mocking)?
"ill-natured" isn't really the best word—"mean-spirited" would be better.
Is it really possible to construe...
Yet another reason Gary Farber is a blogging legend.
Walks are good. They can cause thoughts to go elsewhere than about being 13 years old and being beaten up because of what you rea
And how, years later, one might take out this pent-up aggression on an unrelated person by being insulting. Because that's not at all unfair the way people were once unfair to you.
Gary:
I'm a sci-fi geek. I love BSG. I think it's the best show on television right now, and the best one I've seen since... well, Star Trek TNG. So I sort of have an inkling of where you're coming from.
I also know you're a pretty smart guy, and have a seemingly endless store of knowledge about a broad range of topics. So I present you with a thought experiment / theoretical math problem: I'd like you to develop a formula for predicting precisely how much more fun you'd have, and how much less condescending and arrogant you'd sound, if you were to somehow extract the stick that seems to have implanted itself firmly in your ass.
No, really. I want an exact number: what is the marginal utility in units of fun that would be achieved by each additional inch of scratchy, splinter-filled stick that would no longer be crammed so uncomfortably far up into your nether regions? Once you arrive at some hard numbers, then you'll be faced with a stark choice: should I throw caution to the wind and just discover for myself the full range of benefits that ass-stick removal can bring?
The answers to some of the deepest questions of the universe may lie in your ass, Gary. I hope and expect that you will have the courage to seek them out and share them with the rest of us.
Also, I was actually amused by the Jenny McCarthy Fox tv ep I just saw. Almost adequate writing and acting, even. Not more, certainly, but that much is noteworthy. It was kind of funny.
I'll be happy, by the way, to suggest that anyone else whom I take as a friend who offers a sufficient excuse in criticizing another... um, there was something in here about defending folks, but I'd rather leave it open so I can be disagreed with, so as to make everyone feel better. Yeah. Absolutely. Good story, eh?
The key thing is that I always thought that people who walked around cons in costumes were a bit dubious, actually, and that's why I take offense at the suggestion that it's typical behavior of anyone I respect.
Thinking about it, that is. Not that I couldn't say more, but economy is always a virtue.
You'll never pay me what it cost me to post this.
I had to google BSG to find out what it stood for. Who knew the British Society of Gastroenterology could inspire such heated disputes?
"The answers to some of the deepest questions of the universe may lie in your ass, Gary. I hope and expect that you will have the courage to seek them out and share them with the rest of us."
This does not seem like the best possible idea. I even decline the endless openings it offers, although I thank you for them, Walter. (No, not even going to follow up on that.)
Belatedly: I had a fairly bad day. Sorry. Not an excuse, but an apology.
FWIW, Gary, I'm sorry you had a bad day.
Sorry you had a bad day too, Gary.
Hope you take the following in a spirit of fun....
The key thing is that I always thought that people who walked around cons in costumes were a bit dubious, actually, and that's why I take offense at the suggestion that it's typical behavior of anyone I respect.
(1) Wait, you respect Unf? That's your mistake.
(2) Even these?
You like me. You really like me.
"Sorry you had a bad day too, Gary."
Thanks. It happened along the lines of someone I care about screaming at me, and my resulting need to restructure certain things in my life. That sort of thing is typically almost annoying, and I'm afraid I'm almost human in tending to often react by stromping on others. Bad me. (No, I won't defend the word.)
I respect Unf. It's almost as if I'd want him to adopt me.
But only up to the check. I'd doubtless otherwise be an unruly child. That's pretty much how it always worked.
incidentally, if anyone wants to actually beat up on Battlestar Galactica with anything resembling text and knowledge, here is where I already set the stage. I'd love a good discussion of such, myself, if anyone actually can contribute. Tell Jim I sent you or not. Show up or make fun. Whatever. Discuss his Adama costume, I invite, or talk about text. Any of it could be interesting.
Not that anyone shouldn't like comment on my own obscure blog about such, to be sure.
After all, if it's worth making fun of people's alleged costumes, it's worth discussing the undertext, surely.
Gary, no one was making fun of anyone's costumes.
"Gary, no one was making fun of anyone's costumes."
Um, was it work suits being referred to here?
"Had Henley known that Unf goes to work everyday dressed as Captain Adama, his response would no doubt have been more temperate."
Admittedly, I shouldn't call up this thread again. It's more or less like touching a scab compulsively. Admire my analogy!
Okay, stop touching it now. Please.
I didn't even compare filming J. G. Ballard's early work to his later work. Discuss.
Farber, as comment 3 noted, the comment wasn't making fun. It was a joke about Henley's love of BSG. I don't see any barb at the becostumed there.
Not to comment on the touchyness displayed by all parties, but the point of the original joke was that (a) because someone is a BSG fan, you can deduce that they dress in costume, and (b) dressing in costume is pretty darn absurd. You can say it was unreasonable to take heated offense at it, but saying that it wasn't making fun of the becostumed (and of BSG fans as presumptively becostumed) seems insupportable.
(Can I say how happy it makes me to be able to describe anything as 'presumptively becostumed'?)
Actually, LB, I don't see a or b in comment 1.
I think you have (a) the wrong way around. In the original, because someone dresses in costume, we can deduce that they're a BSG fan. Which is fine as deductions go. But, following Gary:
The key thing is that I always thought that people who walked around cons in costumes were a bit dubious, actually, and that's why I take offense at the suggestion that it's typical behavior of anyone I respect.
I doubt it would put Unf in the class of fans Henley would likely admire.
Erm, on looking back at it, I did misread the opening of the sentence. I thought Henley was the one in the Adama outfit. May I amend my last comment to say that the point of the joke was that (a) because one is a BSG fan, one would presumptively feel sympathy and kinship with the becostumed, and (b) being becostumed is in itself funny?
I don't think the joke was all that hostile or out of line, but it was of the form that Henley would be friendlier to Unf if he knew that they shared the same goofy interest, with costumes dragged in as a signifier for the goofiness of being a BSG fan. The joke isn't funny at all unless being in a BSG costume is both ridiculous and the sort of thing that Henley, as a BSG fan, would be expected to approve of.
I'm not saying the joke was out of line, but it does depend on inappropriate costume wearing being both silly and the sort of thing that SF fans do.
I wonder if this all would have seemed as bad if say, Henley had been a huge Red Sox fan, and SCMTim had joked that too bad Henley doesn't know that Unf wears his Red Sox jersey on casual Fridays.
But wearing Red Sox jerseys isn't nearly as goofy. Will they ever make a movie in which Jimmy Fallon plays a guy who wears BSG costumes to work and still marries Drew Barrymore? (NOT a spoiler--haven't seen the thing.) I hope so, actually, it seems like Fallon kind of deserves that role.
If BSG stands for what I think it was, when I was in elementary school (East Hills, Cala) I was carrying around my Space: 1999 lunchbox and a kid came up to me singing, semi-admiringly I think, "Battlestar Galactica." Then he was very disappointed in me. Speaking of which: 1999? WTF?
I don't think you want to appeal that particular privileged mode of fandom to take the sting out of SCMTim's joke.
but it was of the form that Henley would be friendlier to Unf if he knew that they shared the same goofy interest, with costumes dragged in as a signifier for the goofiness of being a BSG fan.
I thought that it worked because Unf, dressed in costume, gained some of the authority appertaining to the person whom the costume represents. You know, in a "statue of the god is the god" kind of way.
I guess my point is just the observation that there are plenty of people that make idiots out of themselves over sports games, with the costuming, the rioting, the ranting when their team loses.. and while that's not exactly applauded, if someone says 'I'm a Red Sox fan', they're not assumed to be the sort that torches cars upon losses.
But if you're a science fiction fan, well, you know. That's weird. Even though people dress up and paint their faces for sports events. Even though I can't think of a time where a disgruntled scifi fan was so upset at the conclusion of a series that he got some friends together and torched a few city blocks.
where a disgruntled scifi fan was so upset at the conclusion of a series that he got some friends together
See, that's the problem.
I am very very sorry. I didn't really mean that at all. See how easy it is to fall into the trap?
"statue of the god is the god"
So, as for the various prohibitions against idols and graven images, is their ulterior purpose to prevent acts of disrespect to the gods in question, or rather, to keep the unwashed from getting their mitts on some unmediated divinity?
Um, false dichotomy alert.
*giggles*
Bad Matt!
(Btw, SCMT's comment didn't seem out of line to me. But then, I don't know if Henley is a BSG fan or not, and was too lazy to confirm that by looking at his website, and I have no idea who Captain Adama is, either... so I wasn't sure if Unf was supposed to be in ruby tights or not, and then I thought that I obviously wasn't the target audience for the joke.)
b-wo, the "statue of the god is the god" thing is supposed to make it less weird?
Really, there's no defending Gary's reading here. The conceit of my post was that Henley is in some way out of the loop, and doesn't realize we have to get Unf to post. Tim was just looking for a way to say "Yes, if Unf were one of Henley's people, Henley would have been more forgiving." How then, to say that Unf is one of Henley's people? And, because this is Unfogged, how to say that he's one of Henley's people...in a ridiculous way. Tim has said Battlestar Gallactica fandom was the distinctive Henley trait that occurred to him. But Tim didn't say "dresses up for Halloween as Captain Adama," which could have been construed as making fun of scifi costumes per se, he said "goes to work everyday dressed as Captain Adama." Whatever you think of science fiction fandom and costumes, that, given that we know Unf is an attorney at a hoity-toity firm, would be ridiculous.
You just want Tim to tear off your Uhura outfit and ravish you, don't you.
You're making fun of me because I'm Middle-Eastern; I know it.
You're Middle-Eastern, and so's your mom.
Different topic:
Is that Henley's actual dog? It looks rather a lot like mine, not that you'd mistake them for each other because mine's spottier (she could hide by standing next to a Jackson Pollock), but with the same sheepdog look of alert cynicism. In any case, a good-looking dog.
b-wo, the "statue of the god is the god" thing is supposed to make it less weird?
Yes! I reiterate that I wasn't thinking of this in any sort of scifi-specific way.
When he redesigned the site, I was surprised to find it decked out with a prominent picture of a hairy bird. It wasn't until I read the tag line ("same poop, new dog pic") that I was enlightened. Something about the ninety degree rotation really threw me—that ear at lower left is strangely beaksome.
But if you're a science fiction fan, well, you know. That's weird. Even though people dress up and paint their faces for sports events.
I disagree with your argument. Clearly there's a difference between adopting the symbols of something that is arguably kind of silly, and adopting the symbols of something that is arguably kind of silly and obviously fictional.
Some may consider putting a bumpersticker on your car advertising your alma mater (or your kid's) to be pretentious and/or stupid, but it's clearly different than putting a "Starfleet Academy" bumpersticker on your car (or a bumpersticker for Hogwarts, or fictional school X, if you'd prefer to remove the anti-scifi-fan acrimony from the equation).
Don't mess with Potter, Tommy, you Slitherin bastard.
Ah, so questions of authorial intent and The Text rear their ugly heads. On Unfogged; who could have guessed? #41 roughly describes what I meant to do; I meant to imply that Unf was part of Henley's group, and that any dispute between the two was in the nature of a intra-family dispute.
And I think it's "Slytherin," Kriston.
tom: Fantasy football leagues? Obsessing over greatest sports moments evah (and in the case of Unfogged, trying to keep the discussion off of figure skating) ? I'd say there's a fair amount of fiction-making going on within sports, too.
The extremes of both types of fandom are wacko. But if you say you're a Cubs fan, the average person probably thinks "hmm, he must like the Cubs." not "God, what a loser, he probably has his bedroom plastered in box scores and he's probably suicidally drunk everytime they lose". If someone admits to being a sci-fi fan, the first most people jump to is the extreme, not the norm.
How are fantasy football leagues fiction making?
Also, data point: I didn't know there was such a thing as science fiction fandom until I read Farber's blog, way back in the day. And I was a big Asimov fan as a kid.
The extremes of both types of fandom are wacko.
Just to get it out of the way: I agree.
But if you say you're a Cubs fan, the average person probably thinks "hmm, he must like the Cubs." not "God, what a loser, he probably has his bedroom plastered in box scores and he's probably suicidally drunk everytime they lose". If someone admits to being a sci-fi fan, the first most people jump to is the extreme, not the norm.
True, but isn't that just playing the odds? It's not that it's fair to say that sci-fi fans are nuts, but it is fair to say that someone who enthusiastically self-identifies as a sci-fi fan is more likely to be a nut than someone who enthusiastically self-identifies as a sports fan. Probably this is just because of the relative popularity of the two; the fandom threshold seems a lot lower for sports. They're better-integrated into the culture and the terminology has taken on slightly different connotations. "I'm a Cubs fan" can be == "I enjoy watching an occasional Cubs game". "I'm a Star Wars fan" is less often == "I enjoy watching an occasional Star Wars movie".
But really I think what it boils down to is the motivating impulse. Sports nuts just seem to be finding an outlet for aggression and provincialism. "If Springfield is so great, how come we beat them at football nearly half the time?", etc. Unpleasant, but totally comprehensible.
Sci-fi nuts seem to be motivated by escapism, which I would say is a motivation a lot of people, my Star Trek-watching self included, are less comfortable with. I can't quite put my finger on why this is, but whenever I stumble across a furry site I feel like I'm close to figuring it out.
It's not that it's fair to say that sci-fi fans are nuts, but it is fair to say that someone who enthusiastically self-identifies as a sci-fi fan is more likely to be a nut than someone who enthusiastically self-identifies as a sports fan.
Isn't this a bit circular? I'm an SF fan in the sense that I read an insane amount of it as a kid and teenager, and still read a fair amount (although less -- there seems to be less being published that's to my taste). I don't enthusiastically self-identify as a SF fan partially because of the negative associations lots of people have with it. I don't think you can say that SF fans run nuttier than sports fans -- more that moderate SF fans keep it underground because they'll be tabbed as nuts if they come out.
Obligatory Penny Arcade comic, with disclaimer:
If you are wondering whether or not I'm speaking about you, ask yourself: Do I draw husky fox men with massive wing-wongs?
I almost exclusively read genre fiction. That is to say, science fiction, fantasy, mystery and historical fiction, with the bulk of that being sf. I rarely watch filmed sf, usually because it's so bad (BSG--the new one--is a rare exception), in part because it's incapable of conveyiong the complexity of ideas expressed in written sf in the time/format allowed.
Does that make me a "fan?" It seems like there are two different usages going on here. I have no problem calling myself a Vikings fan even though the amount of time I spend on Vikings-related activities is small, compared to my science fiction time. People who are as obsessed with a sports team as the typical image of an sf fan are know as "superfans" --there doesn't seem to be a corresponding superlative for sf fans.
Also, thanks to SB for making me chortle over "husky fox men with massive wing-wongs."
"Does that make me a "fan?" "
An ancient, but still useful, question. Context controls. Numerous categories exist. Active or passive? And from there we move to the hierarchy.
"I didn't know there was such a thing as science fiction fandom until I read Farber's blog, way back in the day. And I was a big Asimov fan as a kid."
This is proto-fandom. We all (okay, not "all," but "us") started there.
Before the internet, some of us were busy conversing in apas and fanzines, and at cons, and some even laid down the technology for the internet, and then started ARPAnet, and then we wound up here.
There's possibly even a book there, perhaps, he said, thinking aloud.
"...there doesn't seem to be a corresponding superlative for sf fans."
"Trufans," actually, is the old and common word in the society. It's flawed, and often causes unnecessary disputes, given the way it's easily and almost unavoidably read in a triumphal way that is not (at least by most) intended or historic, but there it is, when asked about, or looked at.
Are you a punk? a goth? a mod? a hippy? Are you indie? a hipster? proto-prog? metal? a bohemian? an aesthete?
I'm Ozric.
Well, you certainly are pungent.
Your effulgence needs work though.
The Tentacles, Mitch, the Tentacles.
My heart expands, 'tis grown a bulge in it.
Inspired by your beauty effulgent.
Let pobulgetry be the set of poems containing the word "bulge".
Shouldn't it be "effulgenit"?
Is there a non-Ozric Tentacles use of "ozric"? I thought first of the band but didn't want to make assumptions or, apparently, consult a dictionary.
Now you're just parodying yourself, Ben. Next you'll be calling the ghost of Byron to say that "intellectual" and "hen-pecked you all" don't strictly rhyme.
(Googling ozric -tentacles, no. I don't know what Mitch is talking about.)