Quick note, though -- Derb ends his 'peak attractiveness' period at 20, rather than at 25, as you do. Those years really aren't terribly aging in terms of the body -- if there's a difference between 20-year-olds and 25-year-olds, it's facial, and it's that the 20-year-olds still look baby-faced.
By indicating a strong preference for the under-20 crowd over the early-20s crowd, he's not asking for physical perfection -- there's as much of that around at 23 as there is at 18. He's asking for visible immaturity. Which, you know, ick.
(And obviously he's just chain-yanking, and who gives a fuck. But if someone says something icky for the purpose of chain-yanking, there's nothing wrong with saying "ick" rather than pretending it was unexceptionable.)
He says you can extend by "half a decade" through exercise.
But if someone says something icky for the purpose of chain-yanking, there's nothing wrong with saying "ick" rather than pretending it was unexceptionable.
No, I think this is what I disagree with. This is one of the ways that what pass for "cultural" lines in the US are drawn: he says something borderline icky, and you can either ignore it or chuckle or yawn, or say "ick," and "ick" makes you a weenie, which is exactly what he wants you to be.
Yeah, but pretty 23 year-olds aren't still perfect because they're killing themselves at the gym, they're still perfect because age isn't hitting them yet. God knows what Derb's actual sexual preferences are, and no one cares, but the age limits he's giving here make sense for an immaturity preference, not for a perfection preference.
It's chain-yanking, and it's stupid, but it is a kind of gross thing to say.
but by 36 the bloom is definitely off the rose
I'm not sure I agree with this. Or at least, it isn't my personal experience.
People look different in their 30s than they do at 21, sure. But now that I'm on the far side of 35, I'm finding women in their 40s and 50s more and more attractive, in ways that weren't as obvious when I was younger. And it's the very signs of aging that are catching my eye - crows feet around the eyes, for example. Oddly (and perhaps self-damningly), much of it has to do with seeing hints of what somebody looked like when they were younger, I suppose, but there's also a certain grace, elegance, and beauty to women of that age that even the most bombastically hott twenty-somethings almost *never* possess.
Once between my marriages and once when I was in college, I had one-night-stands with significantly older women. While gravity is an inexorable force on the human body over the span of decades (and both expressed embarrassment at first about being seen naked by somebody younger), they still were strikingly beautiful and both experiences remain way more memorable than most of my hookups in my 20s.
I'm with LB on this one, although ogged is right that "The term for people who like to ogle 15-25 year-olds is 'most people.'"
What I think is exceptionable about The Derb is that he's passing on Jennifer Aniston's boobies, sight unseen, on the grounds that she's too old.
Who wouldn't at least look and then, if she really has past her prime, say, "Eh"?
Fundamental disagreement here. If objecting when boundaries are pushed makes me a weenie, so I shouldn't do it, then the boundaries move. So then someone pushes the new boundaries. Can I say "ick" yet? How far do the boundaries have to move before I can object without being a weenie?
I could give a fuck whether Derb thinks I'm a weenie (or Frank-Ruta's a weenie, given that he's likely reading her but not me.) I'll say 'ick' when he grosses me out, and ignore what doesn't bother me -- his perceptions of my ability to take it don't enter into my calculations at all.
Huh -- I thought I'd quoted ogged's 3 in the first line of my 7. Anyway, 7 to 3.
LB's right. If I said that Iranians were assholes, and nobody said Ick, who could say Ick when I added Germans, the Dutch, and Mongolians to my list of assholes?
LB, I take your point about the boundaries moving, but this is all just a game (at least insofar as Derb isn't actually saying anything controversial) to get people to deny something that seems obvious to one group, so that the denying group can be made to seem out of touch with reality. That's why a response is fine, but an "ick" response, is, I think, not.
While firmer and trimer, nobody under 25 has a personality. I'm 35. I find 20-year-old women cute, but it's more around 30 that they get sexy.
I can't help liking the old paleocon. He's actually something like a voice of reason at NRO of late, which tells you more about NRO than about Derb.
Also, I got that issue of GQ, and any red-blooded het-leaning male is a fricking fool not to spend some time admiring Jennifer Aniston's truly superb breasts (it's all side boob, but still). She's too skinny, but man what a rack.
I'm with ogged, except I like Derbyshire a lot better than I like Insta-fuckit. (Cranky old weird guy versus pusillanimous hack.)
But I think it's fair to say that Franke-Ruta is working the 'unbelievably outrageous' side of the journalism street. She's just doing what she evidently considers her job.
If objecting when boundaries are pushed makes me a weenie, so I shouldn't do it, then the boundaries move.
I would gather the point of objecting is reinforcing a social norm or stereotype (see vagenda); ogged is partly implicitly arguing the norm of 'ick' is wrong/goofy/self-refuting/whatever.
NB: looking at & fucking are two distinct actions, and yes, I know that everyone assumes one leads to the other.
ash
['.']
Derbyshire's position is insensitive and asinine. Doesn't he realize that Jennifer Aniston can afford plastic surgery?
13: w-lfs-n is under 25
Yeah, that's it. He's a nut, not a hack. I like nuts. Don't like hacks. Shine on you crazy diamond.
That was why I made the point about 20 to 25 year-olds, to note that he really isn't just stating the obvious.
A further point on the 'not just stating the obvious' front is that 15-year-olds, as a class? Not that hot. Some 15 year-olds certainly look like adult women, and there's nothing particularly unusual about finding those 15-year-olds attractive, but they aren't the norm -- they're about as odd as, say, a 28-year old woman who is still at the peak of physical perfection she reached at 21. Lots of 15-year-olds, and I would guess the majority, still look like little girls at that age.
To put it another way, if you've got two stacks of magazines, one with pictures of women from 15-20, and the other with pictures of women from 18-25, someone who prefers the first over the second likes looking at pictures of little girls, not at pictures of physically perfect women.
So, Derb's statement? Not so much uncontroversial, and genuinely worth a passing 'ick'.
I am eight days younger than Rachel Wacholder, and she has that ass?
I am deeply shamed.
(I'm also kinda curious: is Derbyshire married, and if so, how old is his wife, and has she read this piece?)
I think Yglesias takes the right approach. No one is going to think he's a weenie for finding and posting that picture.
I don't have a personality, though, tom, just a set of tics.
if you've got two stacks of magazines, one with pictures of women from 15-20, and the other with pictures of women from 18-25, someone who prefers the first over the second likes looking at pictures of little girls, not at pictures of physically perfect women
Yeah, agreed. I took Derb to be exaggerating a bit for effect.
And for that he gets the 'ick'.
I'm with LB on this one. Also, it's totally normal to ogle an attractive 15 year old, but I like that people also immediately feel shame and embarrassment right afterwards. I'm creeped out by people, for example, who go to a McDonalds or something where lots of high school kids come in; I'm not creeped out by people who go to restaurants where lots of 25 year-olds come in.
And for that he gets the 'ick'.
Weenie.
Hey, I finally got LB to flirt with me.
Off to swim, don't bother responding!
I don't have a personality, though, tom, just a set of tics.
Well, you're not missing much. I'm nine months into full personhood, and so far the only thing I've noticed is that I'm slightly fatter and weaker than I used to be.
don't bother responding!
This is the equivalent of the "push and run away" method of elementary school flirting, I think.
lizurdbreth,
i like you do you like me to.
__yes __no
check one
ogged
minor nitpick: sharapova and lohan are 18 and 19, i believe. for me, there's a rather large difference between leering at a girl barely past puberty and an 18-year-old. anyone checking out hermione, for example, is officially a perv.
They weren't always that old, catherine.
And ogged's declared open season on Hermione.
rather than perv, which has several uncivil connotations, why not substitute the word: ogletoddlerenbabyic.
As in, "ogged, I appreciate your candor in this instance, but I find leering at 15 yr olds to be a bit ogletoddlerenbabyic."
I disagree about men, though. Men reach their height of attractiveness at about age 59. They should be no taller than about 5'7" and about 30 pounds "overweight", and they should drink a lot.
Unfogged: always cutting edge, always pervy.
I've seen two immigrant Kournikova-types since I moved to rural Minnesota. (Russians seem to like cold, grumpy places.) One is dating my sulky 16-year-old nephew, who doesn't appreciate her properly because she interferes with his gaming. And I'm the perv because I understand what a mistake he's making! (According to rumor, her dad is a PhD/felon).
I didn't know they gave Ph.D's in Felony.
i always thought people perved on lohan, etc, precisely because when they were 15 they didn't exactly look like normal 15-year-olds. i think of myself and my friends at 15 and basically remember a lot of glasses and braces and zits. but who am i to say that's not hot? hermione, though, i do kind of get. she's a cutie.
i always thought people perved on lohan, etc, precisely because when they were 15 they didn't exactly look like normal 15-year-olds.
I think that's right, and mostly what we're talking about. Perving on gawky dorks with braces and skin problems is definitely weird and wrong.
At the risk of inciting the ick chorus, 15 was prime marrying age for almost all of recorded history and remains so in many parts of the world. 15-year-olds may not look like adults (by the 21st century American definition), but they rarely look like little girls.
At the risk of inciting the ick chorus
A bunch of dead goldfish aren't going to do much to you.
huff. there's a man who doesn't really like tits, is my professional opinion as someone with a regulatory qualification of some kind, I forget what. Plenty of 36-year-old women have fantastic knockers.
(by Derbyshire's criterion, Debbie Harry was never worth looking at, which certainly isn't the way I remember the 70s).
Apostropher, why bring history or nature into this debate? Pervert.
Can we just come out and say that a man who categorically states that topless women in their mid 30s are not view-worthy is showing signs of teh Gay?
why can't we accept the sexual desirability of all women, from toddlers to octagenarians?
Michael--Derb would totally freak out at the thought that he might be gau-leaning. He's totally afraid of the homos.
43: It's Derbyshire, for crying out loud.
"One is dating my sulky 16-year-old nephew, who doesn't appreciate her properly because she interferes with his gaming."
Sigh. As they say, youth is wasted on the young.
Apostropher, why bring history or nature into this debate? Pervert.
Well, what can you expect? After all, I am "the epitome of stupid f#ckups."
Late to the game, but I agree with LB that the exclusion of the 20-25 year-old-set is suspicious and cause for the "ick", and I say this not totally out of self-interest. However, I do think for most women, the years 15-25 are a continuous upswing of attractiveness, and the downswing starts sometime at or after the 25 mark. I am nearly positive that I look better now than at any time during the 15-20 period, and this is not a case of "extending that half a decade through exercise." I mean, jesus people, it's not like boobs suddenly drop on the 20th birthday, for christ's sake.
"One is dating my sulky 16-year-old nephew, who doesn't appreciate her properly because she interferes with his gaming."
Sigh. As they say, youth is wasted on the young.
But his reflexes will never be as quick as they are now!
I didn't know they gave Ph.D's in Felony.
It comes from the school called The School of Hard Knocks.
If he was educated in Russia, a degree in felony is not so surprising. But I'd have expected it to be a business degree.
A bit of oddness: Derby begins by talking about breasts, and claiming that they're best at 15-20, but then claims that those days of glory can be extended to ~25 by regular exercise. Does Derb expect that women become obese in their early 20s if not for regular exercise? If not, how is it that regular excercise affects a women's breasts in her early 20s that doesn't similarly affect them after that period? Or, perhaps, is Derby thinking of more than just breasts? This seems more likely, beyond our salad days, very few of us are interesting to look at in the buff. He's not just saying that breasts are affected early by gravity, he's seems to be saying that a woman naked is only worth effort to catch a glmpse of if she's under 20, or under 25 and excercises regularly.
I don't, therefore, think Ogged is right to assume this: Derb writes to provoke, so he doesn't take any pains to point out (besides that "precise context") what he's not saying: that older people can't still be attractive
Derb seems quite the outlier here on notions of female beauty.
if derb knew anything, he'd know that exercise actually makes your boobs shrink.
PhD first, felony later. Russian PhD's are extremely unfunded these days, so they hang with the boys in the hood more.
anyone checking out hermione, for example, is officially a perv.
Am I allowed to call John Derbyshire sexist?
And, not to be all whorish or anything, but I'm nearing 40, I birthed a 10-lb baby, and nursed him for 2 1/2 years, and I'm telling you: my tits look just. Fine. And I haven't been to a gym in at least fifteen years.
Bitch, John Derbyshire is NOT sexy.
I can't believe TWO WHOLE comments have gone by and we haven't had a "show us your tits!"
Speaking to B, of course (or I would have said, "again").
You wish. Anyway, I'm obviously far, far too old for you.
I don't suppose either of you two want to quit bantering and write this brief for me? Have I ever mentioned that I really, really, don't enjoy my job?
I'll write your brief if Dr. B shows me her tits.
I thought I already had that. But if you want to pimp me to Ben, I'm willing.
Youre not too old for me, B.
What's in it for me?
You'd be joining, well, pretty just me in The I Showed My Tits at Unfogged Club. That's gotta be worth something.
LB: Have you read w-lfs-n's blog? Do you really want him near your brief? I would like to see w-lfs-n's version of your brief, but I doubt your employer would.
Wait a minute, apo, I think the deal is for B to show Ben her tits. What's in it for us?
LizardBreath: High-powered Manhattan lawyer by day, internet pimp by night. I'm sure your kids suspect nothing.
What's in it for us?
Ben will, of course, share.
No doubt w-lfs-n would just come up with some long, rambling story ending with a pun on "boxer briefs" or something like that.
#71: Actually that's a fairly attractive prospect. But I can just imagine my tit-shot going up on PD's blog, so, um, no public viewings.
I'm not too old for most sexually mature men, including the 24-year old I was fucking last summer. Ogged is just really, really weird.
Wait a minute, apo, I think the deal is for B to show Ben her tits. What's in it for us?
I might be easier to get along with for a brief spell.
And I'd really, really like to see Ben's version of the point headings. Sadly, the deal seems to have fallen through.
You're not much of a negotiator, LB.
No, I said private viewings. I don't give a rat's ass about emailing Ben a tit-shot. I'm just not going to post the damn thing on the internets.
You haven't seen me in action. I am devastating.
However, Ben *does* have to post the brief on the internets, if that's not a violation of LB's professional somethingorother.
Hey, this is fine. If Ben gets the picture, it's just a matter of time before a w-lfs-n Indiscretion Error, which will reveal it to the world.
Dude, the whole thing is a violation of my professional something or other -- I can't actually have some random philosophy grad student writing briefs for me. But I do appreciate the offer of the tit-shot.
I believe you are impugning Ben's honor. Is that better, as bad, or worse than calling him sexist?
Am I allowed to call John Derbyshire sexist?
Isn't he an ageist?
And, not to be all whorish or anything, but I'm nearing 40, I birthed a 10-lb baby, and nursed him for 2 1/2 years, and I'm telling you: my tits look just. Fine.
Since no one else will say it: post proof.
ash
['Breasts Anonymous.']
Random=dishonorable? I should expect Ben to regard the epithet 'random' as rather a badge of honor than the reverse. It's certainly richly deserved.
Ben's version of the point headings
No, Ogged's the one with the pointy head.
Is that better, as bad, or worse than calling him sexist?
Ben is NOT the sexiest! He's not!
I know where you live, ogged, and since apparently it's just a matter of time before I reveal it, why don't I just do so now?
(I was actually going to object to being called random—or not quite object, but observe that I am hardly some random philosophy grad student. In other news, I think I enjoyed mustard as such for the first time tonight.)
"than calling him sexist would be, if one were to do such a thing, which one, of course, never would, being as I like Ben. And I don't think he's sexist."
How's that?
Mustard is good.
Is it better if I say that you are a philosophy grad student, who, in my estimation, exhibits a quite uncommon degree of randomness?
What's it like enjoying mustard not 'as such'? Is that when you enjoy something and are then chagrined to find out that it contained mustard?
I think I enjoyed mustard as such for the first time tonigh
Doubtful if you refer to it generally as "mustard" and do not specify which type.
In other news, I think I enjoyed mustard as such for the first time tonight.
That so many people have blog crushes on you is something I am now trying to regard as part of the appealing whimsy of the universe. But sometimes you make it hard.
I gotcher back, Michael. That's just how I roll.
Um, ash?
Um, what? I'm late? I was going to say that before. Um, I'm an idiot? No news to me. :>
Hey, it's not my fault I don't have broadband.
ash
['It's not. I'm too far from the local loops. Bastards.']
#102: Girl27 and someone else, no?
Re: mustard, Sausagely and I tried out the recipe Ben posted a day or two ago. Didn't fuck it up too badly.
sometimes you make it hard.
Beavis laugh.
I am aware of other blog crushes on Ben.
Whom are you quoting in 94, Bitch?
What's it like enjoying mustard not 'as such'?
Well, one can coat a roast in a mustard-rosemary-olive oil, uh, coating. That's good, but you're not really taking the mustard as mustard. The way one might if it were on a sandwich. Or mustard seeds, unground, as a component: not really mustard.
108, and I think 104&101: I saw that prior to posting and left in there for the monkeys. 'Cause I'm a giver.
Well, I have a bit of a blog crush on Ben, but then I'm fairly indiscriminate that way, so it counts for nothing.
What about mustard greens? I eat those all the time.
It's hard to have a blog crush on mustard greens.
I am aware of other blog crushes on Ben.
Self-knowledge is important.
#94 responds to #92, and basically I'm quoting what I was actually thinking, rather than what I said.
Mustard greens: also good.
Of course you ♥ mustard greens, but is that enjoying mustard qua mustard? One might argue it's the very truest expression of mustard.
"I am aware of other blog crushes on Ben."
Ben abused me incomprehensibly over at Kotsko's a while back, and ever since I have been stalking him on the internet. It is the sophistication of his brutishness that I find adorable.
Back to lurking, wistfully.
In my browser 119 seems to say "I bar mustard greens."
There will be no barring of mustard greens, thank you very much.
Better late than early.
'Tis merely the traditional Usenet yell of PPoSTFU. No seasonal festivities (such as the yearly display of the Madonna's new plastic titties) is complete without it.
Pass the eggnog.
ash
['For the record, by the way, not being a titman, or John Derbyshire, I am personally fond of most titties, except the kind that come attached to 350 pound women. Those, not so much.']
On 350 pound men, on the other hand...?
OMG, Ash is John Derbyshire??? I can't decide if that's completely freakishly impossible, or if it inspires sudden clarity.
Mustard greens rock, BTW. But then, I like collards.
Kale, not so much.
ash
['Mustard, habanero hot sauce, and oyster sauce, condiments of champions.']
OMG, Ash is John Derbyshire???
Ok, now you're being mean.
Anyways, everybody knows I'm Matthew Yglesias.
ash
['I just can't stop talking.']
Well, if you're Matthew Yglesias, you already know what my tits look like.
On 350 pound men, on the other hand...?
titties are more w-lfs-n's thing.
['Rum, sodomy and the lash, goddammit!']
Sausagely got to see them while your faithful meeteruppers didn't even get cleavage? There is no justice.
Well, if you're Matthew Yglesias, you already know what my tits look like.
Ummm...
Well, if you're Matthew Yglesias, you already know what my tits look like.
DAMN! It's a fair cop. I forgot that. I gotta get Laura to stop spiking my drinks.
ash
['Alcoholics Anonymous, ha! I've got the button kid! Woo-wee!']
All greens are good.
I dunno. Ever since swiss chard, I haven't really been able to respect spinach.
I'm missing some pertinent information here, aren't I?
Ever since swiss chard, I haven't really been able to respect spinach.
That's because Swiss chard is totally, utterly, completely, teh gay.
ash
['Especially when applied rectally.']
What if there were a commenter named dhphctib? There's someone who could come across with the goods.
Who else finds Ash's signoffs to be annoying?
dhphctib
Sounds like a way to spoof IPs if you ask me.
They're a signature deal. He's been doing it since you were in your nappies.
['Not as annoying as diung this, though. -ed.]
Who else finds Ash's signoffs to be annoying?
Lots of people.
ash
['You make that sound like a bad thing.']
{sigh}
['Especially when applied rectally.']
ash
['Which would give a whole new meaning to the phrase 'getting your salad tossed'.']
"I can't actually have some random philosophy grad student writing briefs for me."
Fitting smoothly in: I'm reminded of the then-recently-hired assistant managing editor (at the big name paperback publishing company I was then working at) whom we discovered was giving out proofreading jobs (they go to freelancers) to guys she had just met in bars. (Explains the state of many books you've read, does it?)
Hey, at least she was having them proofed at all.
Hey -- I can't comment on your blog anymore, because there's some other LizardBreath out there who's keeping me from registering my pseud. (I suppose I could register under a different pseud, but that would annoy me.) The anonymous comments problem really annoys you that much?
"The anonymous comments problem really annoys you that much?"
Yes. I gave it another year or so in the past year, and it only got worse (nor did any of the various people who claimed that the former limitation prevented them from commenting ever comment). I gave something like a hundred individual posted reminders and warnings. I think I gave it more than long enough, more than futilely enough. I'm insufficiently interested in hearing from "anonymous" enough to put up with it any longer (I switched some weeks ago).
Everyone remains as free as ever to sign whatever name they like to the end of their comments, just as they always have. I'm sorry that the Blogger name slot has limits, but the software is full of limits. Either we can improvise around them, or we must suffer. (Or, yes, I could move to another service, and I'm certainly keeping that option on the backburner, but it's not a small amount of trouble to go to, nor without a certain amount of downside; meanwhile, on the Maslow scale, I'm afraid it's not quite at the top of mine.)
I do very much hope to see you back y'know where, LB.
Proving that you can still get a 150+ comment string even after LB said everything there was to say in #1. But I do have a little bit of a soft spot for Derbyshire. I suspect him of being one of those people with dubious social skills and/or limited exposure who says a lot of creepy things but is not, in fact, particularly creepy.
Anyone who thinks the Derb's comments deserve an "ick" should definitely NOT watch the (Spanish) Video Rola channel Saturday at 12:05-12:10 p.m. or 7:05-7:10 p.m. CST. Because you're going to see a video called "Cosas del Amor" by Sergio Vega (#9 on this week's countdown!). And you're gonna say "double ick."
I suspect that a pre-emptive double-ick in is order here.