Re: A Time For Quiet Contemplation

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Prejudice is a weird thing. One can be unbiased at an intellectual level, but still be a bigot at a visceral level. That's kind of my reaction to gay men: intellectually, I support gay marriage, laws forbidding discrimination based on sexual orientation, etc., but viscerally I'm kind of creeped out. Lesbians are different: after all, who wouldn't want to have sex with women? (And yes, depictions of women having sex are hot, whereas men -- blecch. Since I like to think of myself as an enlightened guy, I'll probably go see Brokeback Mountain, but be uncomfortable during the love scenes.)


Posted by: Frederick | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 3:17 PM
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The love scenes in Brokeback will make your skin crawl -- particularly the kissing, which is actually most of what's on camera -- that's a good thing, a big part of the substance of the movie is how incredibly uncomfortable the two characters feel. (Particularly Ennis.)


Posted by: Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 3:30 PM
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"...of the "Candy is dandy / But liquor is quicker" variety...."

I bet Dorothy Parker would have slept with him for that, though.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 4:18 PM
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I do think it's great, by the way, when we confess our prejudices out loud, because, god knows, we've all got them.

Except me, of course.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 4:20 PM
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In bookstores Indians have a reputation for being incredibly fussy, talkative customers who will waste half an hour of your time on a $20 purchase.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 4:32 PM
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hey john emerson, it took me three minutes to figure out you weren't talking about native american indians. which given all my other terrible stereotypes about native american indians your stereotype might have been a nice corrective to have! oh well.

[aren't you in rural minnesoooo-ta? where mosquitoes are the state bird? i thought hmong and somalians were the only immigrant groups out there, along with all the formerly european people -- but then, i pay my grandparently visits further west than you, over the north dakota border, where the soybeans grow!]


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 4:55 PM
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We really should get back to talking about me, now, though.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 5:35 PM
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I have the same reaction as Ogged but to a different group/ethicity/nationality. I've found that travel to the country in question has rid me of this bigotted reation. I found this significant as a the "but some of my best freinds" thing applied to me too. Seems that the context of place and culture were significant as opposed to knowing people from "there" in the "here". But it took years and more than one trip. Always hated my bigotry, and am glad to have shed it. It may not work for you Ogged, but it may. I suggest travel.


Posted by: Mr. B | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 6:15 PM
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I'm ashamed to admit it, but I'm prejudiced against people whose names are anagrams of "Gray Barfer."


Posted by: Frederick | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 6:15 PM
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ethnicity...


Posted by: Mr. B | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 6:16 PM
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Yes, Minnesota is diversity-thin, but nonetheless airport security seem to be mostly Somali.

Yes, the North Dakota objective paradise. Low crime, low unemployment, a high educational level, a high life expectancy, and houses start at $20,000. And you went and left it! Just like my nieces.

I need to correct some earlier statements. It was about 15 years ago that houses sold for $3,000. Inflation has hit bigtime.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 6:20 PM
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You forgot bigoted, reaction, friends.


Posted by: Frederick | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 6:20 PM
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9 applies to 7, 12 applies to 8 and 10.


Posted by: Frederick | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 6:22 PM
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11: not me, my mother. in 1959!

the grandparents are tough though.

i have heard about $3000 houses too. in fact i heard of a $900 one with two stories. that town was shrinking fast.

but, fargo: boom town. (thank you, microsoft!)


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 6:38 PM
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Federdick: I didn't forget. I just didn't catch those spelling mistakes. Wine. I blame wine. 'Sworthit tho.


Posted by: Mr. B | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 7:11 PM
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Well, mmf!, your job apparently requires you to stay in high-crime, high-unemployment Paris with all that obsolete architecture you photograph for history's sake, but at some point you will be able to rectify your mother's error and go back to God's country.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 7:13 PM
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I hate people of a diferent ethicities than mine and don't see what's wrong with that. What a relativistic age we live in.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 7:16 PM
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Some of my best friends have prejudices.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 7:26 PM
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It's funny how familiarity seems necessary both for prejudice and to overcome it. It would never occur to me to think of subcontinentals (is that a word?) as cheap, traitorous, or dirty; whatever stereotype is operating there is completely alien to me. On the other hand, I can tap into the prejudices that Filipinos are either high-achieving type-A materialists or low-achieving bullshitters full of get-rich-quick schemes, for instance. But Mr. B's prejudice against unnamed ethnic group was a complete surprise to me, b/c I was so familiar with said group, and if anything prejudiced in favor of it, that it would never have occurred to me that anyone would hold that prejudice--even though the stereotypes against them (lazy, unambitious, criminal) are ones I know about intellectually.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 7:31 PM
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On Crooked Timber I innocently asked Donald Davies what the stereotypes of Welshmen are. I did this from an American perspective, according to which the Welsh are English, pretty much, and are all sort of like Dylan Thomas.

Real bitterness ultimately erupted. Over there people really care about that particular distinction. Not something to joke about, at least for some.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 7:37 PM
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"Over there people really care about that particular distinction."

Something about that whole killing and rampaging over them, kind of thing, I imagine. It's almost as if some of the English hadn't been entirely kind to Celts, and weirdly, they tend to remember. (I know you know; I'm just saying.)

It's odd how people tend to remember the whole "oppressor" thing, though. It's almost as if that sort of thing engenders resentment. (Not in me: I love Christians, now.)


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 7:47 PM
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Any chance it was "Daniel Davies," by the way? Just a thought. Don may also hang out there; I miss stuff all the time.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 7:49 PM
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Well, the killing and rampaging was something like 500 years ago.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 8:02 PM
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Americans have extremely short memories, and no sense of history whatsoever. Generally speaking. And they project that view onto others.

Pretty much everyone else has a memory. This is why Americans tend to get the world a bit wrong.

500 years is a fairly short time-span, save for us. Although tell it to a Native American, and they'll possibly remind you.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 8:07 PM
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Gary is prejudiced against Americans.

Go back to Russia, commie.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 8:34 PM
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Holding grudges for 500 years got the Balkans to where they are now. Screw the sense of history.

Some of the major Native American grievances (taking kids from their parents) go back less than a century. Some lesser grudges are contemporary.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 8:46 PM
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Well, speaking of far less than 500 years, I gather that that's where some of my grandfolks and such came from (although all but dad's mom were dead before I was born). The tales were quite vague, to be sure, and suggested, as well, Germany, Poland, and possibly Rumania, and perhaps even a bit of the Czech, along with conceivably Hungary although mostly I think my Aunt Ann had trouble telling Budapest from Bucharest.

The Russian part is likely safe, though, along with the German and Polish. The border moved back and forth a lot, after all. And some of us do try to take note.

Persia has lots of kewl history, to be sure.

And, yes, mom was a card-carrying member of the Party in the Thirties. But I've said that before. I only bought the ACLU card, myself. They probably shared more in the other Party. But were less free, although also mostly civil, save from the shouting and the expelling and the show trials.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 8:51 PM
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"Holding grudges for 500 years got the Balkans to where they are now."

I didn't say it was all good. I merely suggested it was so.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 8:53 PM
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Lucille Ball was also a card-carrying Communist. Fact. So Gary's mom is OK, to the extent that Lucille Ball is OK, at least.

I'm sure that no one here needs the penis-enlargers they spam us about, but some (Ogged, perhaps) may have the opposite problem.

The solution is simple. Just go into a grocery store and ask for Crisco. If they don't have it, then just ask them for some other kind of shortening, and pretend that you're getting it for baking purposes.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 8:57 PM
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"So Gary's mom is OK, to the extent that Lucille Ball is OK, at least."

Mom was more bad-tempered, less funny, and less red-haired.

Shouldn't be be fighting and shouting at each other and shit, about something or other? I thought it was a rule.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 9:02 PM
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Mr. B's point is a good one. I had lots of prejudices against Iranians, and only managed to quit (some of) them by going to Iran recently. One gets a much broader picture of the culture, and can begin to see how the parts one hates fit into the whole, and how other, unfamiliar parts also react to what one dislikes. It's good to keep in mind that any immigrant community offers a particular, and narrow, view of any culture.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 9:04 PM
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Probably off-stage Lucille was bad-tempered and not red haired. She was probably funny, though.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 9:05 PM
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"...Iranians...."

My guess is that they tend, also, to not think 500 years is all that long. Though I'm broadly generalizing, of course. I'm sure they prefer younger blue jeans, for example. Also, sometimes flagellating.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 9:10 PM
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One gets a much broader picture of the culture, and can begin to see how the parts one hates fit into the whole, and how other, unfamiliar parts also react to what one dislikes.

This makes me think of the nice comment in the recent new yorker article about Stepin Fetchit and Bert Williams

"His brief turns in "Miracle in Harlem" (1948) and "Richard's Reply" (1949) bear out all that he might have achieved in a better world. Fetchit is as delicately calibrated in his physical clowning as Chaplin or Keaton (if as unvarying in his persona as Mae West), and in the context of an all-black society, with other actors portraying shopkeepers and police detectives and well-bred daughters, he implicates no one by his antics except his unique self: a long and sinuous, dreamily unfocussed, narcoleptic moon-calf ("Right now, I'm 'a finish a little nap I started week befo' last"), a marvel of the human condition rather than of a merely racial one, who today seems a creature of the minstrel shows by way of Samuel Beckett."


Posted by: NickS | Link to this comment | 12-26-05 9:55 PM
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stereotypes of Welshmen

Short, dark, hairy, inclined to fuck sheep. Dishonest. Bear grudges. Long-winded. Lachrymose. Devious.

The latest thinking on the racial origins of the Welsh, btw, is that we're not actully Celts at all. We're descended from the Ancient Britons and the reason we speak a Celtic language is that we were thoroughly enslaved and conquered by the Celts way back in time; the Celts then effed off toward Galicia in Spain, a long time before the Saxons came to replace them.

To be honest, the Welsh are one of those nations that's never really looked like getting into the first division.


Posted by: dsquared | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 6:38 AM
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It's still Christmas. We've got nine more days of it damn it!


Posted by: bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 7:38 AM
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Americans have extremely short memories, and no sense of history whatsoever. Generally speaking. And they project that view onto others.

Ever been to The South?


Posted by: Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 7:53 AM
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The South knows how to hold grudges.

I'm in the odd position of someone who was actually indoctrinated in the Grand Army of the Republic point of view in my youth (by a 60-y-o teacher who was indoctrinated in her youth by a teacher born about 1870). I was told that the First Minnesota singlehandedly defeated the Confederacy at Gettysburg. For awhile I recently imagined Newt Gingrich's great-grandfather being killed there, thus changing history, but Newt is a Yankee by birth so I've had to revise my fantasy.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 8:43 AM
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The point is generally correct, though, which is that the losers/oppressed can carry the humiliation for generations, while the winners/oppressors tend to think it was all no big deal after a short while.


Posted by: Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 8:52 AM
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Nah, I still think we should have killed more of them. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Descendants of Confederate soldiers should be stripped of the right to vote, in a slight extension of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The South has risen again. Alas.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 9:22 AM
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The South has risen again. Alas.

Yup. Maybe we should have let the motherfuckers secede. I'm so sick of having our country run by Bible-thumping cretins.


Posted by: Frederick | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 11:08 AM
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The thing is, the English won out over all their local rivals but still hold on to nasty beliefs about the defeated groups. Their resentment of the French is immense, even though the French lost. So it's not just a question of the beaten holding on to grudges and the victors thinking the unpleasantness is all in the past.

What else is at play here? Well, I simply don't like the English. I met a few dozen while traveling here and there, and most of them were unpleasant in similar ways -- petty, self-important, obsessed with what others thought of them. The sort of people who feel better about themselves as soon as they point a finger.

Which puts me in the difficult position of bitching about a group of people for their alleged tendency to bitch about groups of people. So I'll punt and say my comments are offered as evidence of the irrationality of the human mind and its tendency to form convictions out of scraps.

The French, on the other hand . . . I loved almost every Frenchman/woman I met, and the verdict of the entire rest of the world does nothing to shake me. The same principle is at work here, but at least this example makes me look better.


Posted by: Kyle | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 11:18 AM
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It's still Christmas. We've got nine more days of it damn it!

Wait, the 12 Days of Christmas are the 12 days after Christmas? Damn, I always thought it was some abbreviated advent thing, and meant the 12 days before.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 11:34 AM
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It ends with the epiphany, I think.


Posted by: Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 11:50 AM
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traveling for a visit may get rid of stereotypes, but *living* in another country or with that ethnicity makes them grow like weeds.

i don't think it even occurred to me to have stereotypes about the french -- or parisians -- before coming here.

then, once i moved in:

--obsessive attention to small details

--always say "no" first, even if the thing in question is eventually going to be possible

--foreigners are fundamentally different and belong in a different mental category

--either extreme sincere kindness or extreme rudeness from employees of any sort, because a major objective when being an employee is to express one's personality so that one is not defined by the job...

--a love of bureaucracy that is even more evil that the German variety, because the rules are subject to change without warning and one key feature of the process is not to disclose all the rules -- only some of them -- to keep everybody on their toes...

now that i am used to this and, in public, get far more sincere friendliness from strangers rather than Astonishing Rudeness (not unknown during the beginning of my time here), i am starting to worry...have I been Assimilated? frenchified? and how would that manifest? eep...


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 5:44 PM
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When I was in Taiwan, the expats (Westerners in Taiwan long-term) were the most obnoxiously racist. They all had this worldly-wise lore which was useful if you wanted to know which bus to take or where to buy things, but they were continually misunderstanding what was going on.

For example, in Taiwan no one ever used to go Dutch, ever. (That may have changed since 1984). There was always a host or patron. But a lot of the expats never figured that out.

For another, there were no casual relationships in Taiwan. Your girlfriend always wanted to marry you, even if she realized she probably couldn't.

For another, it was a good idea to pay off the local protection racket if you didn't want your stuff stolen.

For another, in Taiwan you always mixed business and pleasure (and family, and friends).


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 7:04 PM
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mmf!, what you say sounds to me like knowledge, rather than the crude stereotypes I traffic in.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 9:47 PM
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I used to think I was prejudiced against a certain ethnic group, but then I realized I just didn't like my relatives very much.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-27-05 10:57 PM
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47: good! the volume was turned up much higher when i had just arrived... particularly after the joys of getting declared "medically and hygienically fit" -- "sanitaire" is the word they use -- for receiving one's residency permit... which i am not going to discuss further except to say that this process occurs at what is basically a police station and resulted in a lot of the @$%#$FRENCH for weeks afterwards...

i have NO idea how muslim women get through that...

incidentally, cross your fingers for me on new year's eve because the weather forecasts predict more car-burning in paris... last time my neighborhood was the only one in central paris that had a building burn (we have a direct RER connection with the HLMs, and are the gay jewish neighborhood of paris)

on the bright side, voter registrations are WAY up in the banlieues this year...


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 5:40 AM
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41: That map always makes me wonder: What's The Matter With Indiana?


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 6:29 AM
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Er, I don't suppose anyone reckons Nash might have had a reasonably good reason (rather than out and out bigotry) for being rude about the Japanese and depicting them as grabbing other people's land?

Jeez. Talk about no sense of history.


Posted by: ajay | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 11:26 AM
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I don't suppose anyone reckons Nash might have had a reasonably good reason (rather than out and out bigotry) for being rude about the Japanese and depicting them as grabbing other people's land? Jeez. Talk about no sense of history.

I'm not sure what you're alluding to. According to the site linked below, Life magazine published Nash's poem in 1932, and it summed up popular opinion in the U.S. about Japanese immigration. 1932 was before the war between China and Japan (which began in 1937), and of course before Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941.

http://tinyurl.com/9ao4k


Posted by: Frederick | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 3:56 PM
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I wrote: "Americans have extremely short memories, and no sense of history whatsoever. Generally speaking. And they project that view onto others."

Response: "Ever been to The South?"

Yes. Any event that people lived through during one's own lifetime isn't a "long" time by common world standards.

Certainly there were still people alive during the Recent Unpleasantness, including former slaves, in my lifetime, anyway. Here's someone who fought during my lifetime.) But lots more simply lived through it, and were still alive until a few years ago.

It's not even beginning to be a "long time" by common world standards if it's under 500 years old. A thousand or two isn't unusual at all.

Yes, I generalize. But you make my point.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 6:20 PM
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"Here's someone who fought during my lifetime.)"

"Here's someone who fought in the war who was still alive in my lifetime," to be slightly clearer.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 6:21 PM
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Dunno why my ID vanished; the last two were by me.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 6:22 PM
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And lastly for the moment, I'd not reread my earlier comments before posting the last; sorry for repeating myself; clearly I have few points on offer.


Posted by: Gary Farber | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 6:25 PM
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Japan seized Manchuria in 1931 and shelled Shanghai in early '32. (Well, at the time the West was I guess sort of colonizing the rest of China, but Nash might not have had a sophisticated view of that.) It had earlier taken Korea and Taiwan, and would invade China a few years later.


Posted by: rilkefan | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 7:13 PM
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Frederick -- the page you link to is something else. Wow. Did you read his footnotes to Nash's "Geddondillo"? A work of art. For everything (including the nonsense!) to be bilingual English-Japanese, and to have the color scheme supplied by Google's cache highlighter -- I am robbed of words.


Posted by: Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 7:42 PM
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Footnote 4 begins, "As to what or where quastron might be, I can only speculate." For some reason whenever I read this I collapse in helpless giggles.


Posted by: Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 7:47 PM
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Odd. My link takes you to a page that does not render properly. Use Frederick's, above, for optimum loony Ogden Nash interpretation experience[Verrücktesogdennashausdeutungspraxis as they say in the Heimat].


Posted by: Jeremy Osner | Link to this comment | 12-28-05 7:53 PM
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Frederick, why do you insist on making the baby jesus puke?


Posted by: Joe Drymala | Link to this comment | 12-29-05 11:05 AM
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