a fucking apology
"I'm... so sorry. That hardly ever happens. Maybe we can try again later?"
It's ok, don't try to cover up your earnestness. No need to lash out at others. We're here for you, man.
Resetting the TiVo has affected Ogged in profound ways.
Point of Order! This whole damn blog is out of order.
That was a rare teachable moment, though apparently Ogged is regressing to his carnal nature as we speak.
Ogged, Elizabeth Clare Prophet will always be there for you. Always.
did anyone read it to the end?
(this must be a day for the point.
jeeze. that last one should have said "not getting the point" and included a link...
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/007473.php
Even with a number of years passed since it has been a meaningful rivalry (and I can imagine a Bulls fan, given their dominance, thinking that it never was), I'd really like to see the Knicks beat the Bulls in OT right now. Also, there was just a near brawl followed by Taylor and Duhon getting double technicals.
Speaking of not getting the point, I would everyone to duly register their fear of my new knife.
not effectively mocking the sensibility he was objecting to yesterday
Also, why no blogging on Caitling Flanagan's article on oral sex? That should be worth like a zillion comments.
I'm puzzled. What is there in "Seasons" that suggests it's related to ogged's dispreference for the Munro-esque?
Or is the sensibility in question something different entirely? It's so hard to keep up these days.
Also, why no blogging on Caitling Flanagan's article on oral sex? That should be worth like a zillion comments.
Considered it, even read that whole damn article, but it feels like ground we've covered.
But did "dissertation topic" have anything to do with "seasons"?
Woah, dude, like psych! All I can say is:
Goodbye to you my trusted friend
We've known each other since we were nine or ten
Together we climbed hills and trees
Learned of love and A B C's
Skinned our hearts and skinned our knees.
* * * *
We had joy we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the hills that we climbed were just seasons
Out of time......
Somebody had to make that joke.
15: See also here et seq., in among the math chat.
What mischief one could work with a couple of hyphens and the Ivory dish soap tagline. The mild-on-hands what?
And he claims it was a joke, but he resets the TiVo, swimming post, he passes up the chance to post on blow jobs, the goddamn toast post is just around the corner.
Somebody had to make that joke.
This motivates a lot of commenters, I think.
Y'all are killing me, is what I'm saying.
And now I'm going back to work. I'll take my sympathy off the air.
Matt, I'm still confused. Can you say precisely which sentiment ogged was objecting to yesterday-ish, and which you took him to be mocking ineffectively in "Seasons"?
Y'all are killing me, is what I'm saying.
Time to go back to being funny, I guess.
eb was a bit pre-pwned in 24, actually.
To tell the truth I'm not exactly sure what ogged's problem with Munro was, except that he sucks; but I suppose I (by ac's inspiration) took him to be objecting to what he saw as a certain gushiness, and his "seasons" post was that sort of gushiness but directed at ecstasy rather than desperation, except it missed its target because Munro rules and ogged does not.
Heh. I scooped ogged.
OK, enough bowing. Back to work on my chariot, youse.
Aren't the east-coasters at work now? Come on, guys, liven up the joint.
I thought, if not a direct (and unsuccessful!) parody of Munro, Ogged was attempting to write the short story I requested. But perhaps I, too, am suffering under the delusion that it's all about me.
This raises an interesting question: how do you and Weiner think of the Munro passage quoted (all ogged had to work with) that you could read the "Seasons" post as aimed at parodying it, even if it failed to hit the mark?
And now, for some karaoke, dedicated to one BW:
Multitudes of ac's
Everywhere I look
Sentences of ac's, paragraphs of ac's
Filling every book
See, Ben, when you make us comment just because we're East Coasters at the office, you get weak parodies not just of Sondheim songs, but Sondheim songs cut from the original musical. Someone teach me some popular music, stat.
Oh, you know, I'm not in love with Illinoise so far. I've only given it a few listens, but his greatest talent seems to be in orchestration and arrangement. His lyrics are (at first pass; this is not a final opinion) a little precious, his voice, a little fey*, and it can't stand up to his big orchestral sound.
*Tia is the sexiest!
In the past, he mocked something else I liked as gushy. I thought it was a unifying critique.
I still have no idea what that previous post was about. but since the point of this blog is open comment threads and mocking ogged, it's all good.
I'm sure this was part of Ogged's unconscious motivation, if not conscious. Sure of it!
As for the complaint about Munro, I thought it was that no one talks in such a ridiculous emotional manner. (Not unrelated to gushiness.)
Cala, follow eb's link.
His lyrics are (at first pass; this is not a final opinion) a little precious
Did you never think that maybe life is "a little precious"? Jesus. You people sicken me. Sicken me!
I thought it was that no one talks in such a ridiculous emotional manner.
But I granted that people do talk like that. It's not that that passage is gushy, but that they're talking in too-thought-out mock-dramaticisms. If she's parodying people who think and talk like that, it's brilliant and spot-on. Obviously, I can't tell that from such a short excerpt. (And I still wouldn't want to read even a parody of such people.)
In the past, he mocked something else I liked as gushy.
It gives me this because I knew and recognized its beauty under the grime of its wandering.
Did I really call that "gushy?" "Gushy" doesn't sound like a word I'd use. Ok, reading thread...
She's Canadian, Ogged. Canadian. Of another generation. I would venture to say that the regular idiom of northern Ontario circa 1965 is not too-thought-out mock-dramaticisms.
SB, I was trying to finesse that.
Whether or not "gushy" is a word you'd used, it's the wrong word there, too.
I didn't call it "gushy," I see--another of ac's scurrilous attacks on me.
I would venture to say that the regular idiom of northern Ontario circa 1965 is not too-thought-out mock-dramaticisms.
So you're saying that she is mocking them?
Anyway, I'm too tired and grumpy to rag on people for their aesthetic taste today. I'm going to end up hurting someone's feelings.
To summarize for our viewing audience, sb had jokingly predicted that after ogged 'reset the tivo' (nudge nudge wink wink) this blog would get all soft and dopaminely vague such as Sarah McLachlan's music. And Cheers and Moonlighting and who knows what other comedy/dramas.
So ogged 'pretended' (but was it really an act? Hmmmm.) to do just that.
Personally I didn't recognize any of that when it was happening but in the interest of sparking debate I will throw red meat to Bphd and say "See, this shows that one of the responsibilities of the female is to tame and civilize the male by helping him with his electronics."
I know exactly what you're talking about, Tripp. Ever since becoming single I've been unable to fix this stupid VCR—keeps flashing 12:00—I need a woman's help, here.
Ever since becoming single I've been unable to fix this stupid VCR
I note that by Seinfeld-ian lights, w-lfs-n's sex-starved stupidity indicates that he's a woman. Is that what you were trying to indicate, Ben?
Tim,
Please read the last sentence of Tripp's 49.
So you're saying that she is mocking them?
No, that I'd read such lines in Munro as the almost freakish emotional outbursts of the normally repressed.
Will 'program my VCR' become the new 'reset the TiVo'?
Well, right after announcing his Tivo reset, Ogged did post an anatomically-correct photo of a hott swimmer with a cute bulge in his suit. Or are we not supposed to talk about that?
54 -- I think not because "reset my TiVo" can be used by someone of either gender and involves only onesself: "I have not reset my TiVo in ages" whereas "program my VCR" can be used only by a male speaker and describes the action of one's partner, i.e. "She programmed my VCR."
But do those outbursts really take such mannered form and follow such consideration?
OTOH it's good to see more consumer electronics entering the lexicon of boinking.
w-lfs-n, I never claimed to be able to write dialogue -- indeed I suck at it. Just giving usage examples.
57 was in response to 53, Osner.
It's all about ac, you see.
(AC, You See is the name of my ac tribute band.)
Jeremy,
I'm not following. Certainly while one may be capable of programming one's own VCR it is nicer if someone else does it for you. And I don't see why a female couldn't need her VCR programmed.
How about "get to know the being of his/her being"?
So it's not the outpouring of emotion you object to, but the artificiality of the expression? I thought it was the outburst of emotion, which is fairly described as 'gushy'. Still, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to read the seasons post as parodying the thing you are objecting to. Still, whatever.
As for Munro, the point is that sometimes people really do talk like that, because they're in extreme states of emotion, and those states of emotion can't find any other expression than in these dramatic outbursts. That's why Munro's narrator says at the end of the passage that the scene was stagy. Doesn't make it any less real. People who act like that are painful to be around, that's the point of the passage, but sometimes you're so desperate that you can't help it.
But, while there might be a lot of emotion expressed and experienced by the people depicted or in actual such circumstances, it comes across in that particular bit of prose highly artificially, you see? Affectless.
Not only did I start two sentences in a row with "Still," the second was needlessly churlish. What I should have said was:
"Anyway, I don't know why I'm bothering to argue that your post might have been a Munro parody when it in fact wasn't. Munro herself I will defend to the death. En garde!"
Did you never think that maybe life is "highly artificial"? Jesus. You people sicken me. Sicken me!
Tripp, it was established in 50 that women are the ones with the VCR-programming ability. Men can only stand by and watch in awe.
Seriously, life is artificial; Munro is capturing the moments when you just have to make a spectacle of yourself. And how uncomfortable those moments are for everyone else (the narrator wants to be civil, but tells the guy to fuck off instead). I think it captures something real, and if you don't, well nyah. 'tain't affectless, but the world would be dull if all writers were Hemingway.
I think the problem with that passage is that, at least in that snippet, it doesn't really encourage sympathy, much less empathy, with its abject and desparate characters. They seem gross and unlikeable. That's possibly intended, and if so, just fine, but it is possible to write about abjection (is that the noun form?) and theatricality while opening up your characters more to the reader's identification.
I might plead context, since this is pretty far into the emotional arc of the story. But I find these characters unlikeable and still identify -- this is the point when you're so abject you don't even like yourself.
There is not much conflict (in this day and age) between drawing a character as unlikeable/gross, and allowing the reader to identify with him or her. Check out Flannery O'Connor sometime. Or Annie Proulx. Hell, take a look at the majority of Kurt Vonnegut's work. I've never read Munro -- I did not get much out of the passage but certainly would not judge her work based on that.
#57: Yes. Yes they do.
Munro: You're not supposed to sympathize or empathize with the character; he's being melodramatic, irritating and self-pitying. You're supposed to find him so, even while recognizing that your aesthetic reaction is perhaps a bit unkind since he is, after all, actually in pain.
This comment sums up pretty much every reason why I hate the midwest. It drives me batshit, and yet I recognize that my hatred for it says something bad about me. Grr.
Bring on the red meat.
I think Tia uses just the right word with "gross". There's a difference between being dramatic despite your own wishes and playing out some bad version of a high school play.
I can sometimes identify with entirely unlikeable characters, though it takes a firm hand to make that work. Without context, it's impossible to know whether that would happen in Weiner's story. But my sense is that dialogue that is at once stark and mannered and untempered descriptions of gushy emotions are not the best way to make that happen. I think it's odd that this is being contrasted with Hemingway, because I think Hemingway's style, at least in what I've read, has more commonalities with that passage than differences.
Hemingway's style, at least in what I've read, has more commonalities with that passage than differences
Tia is unbanned!
I'm confused. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
That's a good question. I meant it as a good thing, but it's probably not consistent with past usage.
In the Proulx or O'Conner or Nabokov examples, the writer assigns the grotesque character as the narrator, no? That snip of Munro at least gives the impression of a rushed job—it's hard work, waging the horribleness of a character against that character's truth or what have you, and assigning the grotesque character special significance as the other in the story seems to be at ends with an effort to have us to identify with him.
In e.g. The Shipping News by Proulx, Quoyle is not the narrator. Tell the truth I don't think any of Proulx' stories I've read are written in the first person. Or Vonnegut's either. And Vonnegut is not Nabokov -- though Nabokov cerrtainly also uses gross sympathetic characters.
I don't think we're supposed to identify with the male character in the passage as much as with the female character, yes?
And the problem is, she sucks too. And I don't get the feeling -- from that passage -- that the author is in on her suckiness.
It's easy to hate on Hemmingway, and I do it, but that passage reads more like a parody on Hemmingway than an accurate recreation of his style. Maybe it compares to his late, fat, drunk period, in which he was himself an innacurate recreation of his style. But he shot himself for that, so maybe we shouldn't pile on.
For me, the problem is not that the male character is gushy -- I think he's supposed to be pathetic, and that's ok -- but that he is not like anything one encounters in life. That's ok if it's intentional, but I don't think it is. Trembling and dropping the spoon is funny because I don't believe it.
And the problem is, she sucks too.
She sucks because she is mannered or because you don't buy the emotion itself?
My sympathy for the woman depends on her relationship with the man, right? If he is as he's depicted, I'll just ask her what she expects when she says yes to everyone.
but that he is not like anything one encounters in life.
You say that with such confidence. Are you in the habit of turning down distraught young men?
The reason I asked is that the thing that rang true to me (obviously, since I'd just mentioned it) is the distance and lack of sympathy (even distaste) you feel for someone you are rejecting, even if you are in the midst of being rejected yourself. And how that opposition can be very striking, since you want sympathy so much yourself. This didn't make me like or dislike her, just find her honest.
That's what I reacted to in the passage, rather then the form of the expression. But it wasn't disturbing to me as I read, in part because it's acknowledged as stagy in the passage itself.
As long as everyone's talking about Hemingway I will link to my favorite story of his, A Clean, Well-Lighted Place. Probably everybody here has already read it; but if you have not and have 20 minutes to spare, there are far worse things you could do with the time.
Time for bestiality, if you ask me.
Shh, everybody's reading A Clean, Well-Lighted Place.
Have we reached the point where we're pretty sure Emerson isn't joking anymore?
In the context of the story the narrator herself identifies with the man. She's utterly obsessed with a different man, and just before the passage, she says something like, "At least I don't know where he is so I can't phone him and follow him around and..." and then describes this. So she's acknowledging how pathetic she is; she is just like this man, who she cruelly rejected and rightly so.
I just don't understand people who'd prefer discussing fiction they dislike to a little hot man-on-dog action.
Hills Like White Elephants is a good Hemingway short piece. Not to be confused with My Lovely Lady Humps by the Black-Eyed Peas.
Hey BTW Emerson, did you read that novel I gave you? Wha'dya think?
96: Nor with My Lovely Lady Humps White Elephants, by J. Emerson.
Hey Ogged, did you ever read that novel I recommended to you?
Flannery O'Connor, Three Short Novels, right. It's on my pile, but I haven't got to it. O'Connor's been on my list for decades.
No apparent bestiality, though. I think that Erskine Caldwell may be the way to go.
The Education of Arnold Hitler, Marc Estrin. Also good, his Insect Dreams.
Compared to underage sex, bestiality is really a neglected topic in literary fiction. Even the genre fiction is not too abundant.
No apparent bestiality
True, but O'Connor was at least gay, so on the same spectrum of depravity.
89 to 57 as well as 83 (so Ben doesn't think I ignored him, or the tribute band).
I always say yes to distraught young men.
Frankly, I think she sucks because she's incapable of sympathizing with this guy, who I don't believe. She's incapable of sympathizing at the time, and she's incapable of sympathizing afterwards. Inability to sympathize is a good proxy for teh suxx, in my book.
I don't believe her narration. The fellow looks like a caricature. You could come away with the idea that the narrator has created a caricature of a lovelusty pathetic human being so as to justify her scorn for an actual human being. But there aren't any textual clues that Munro is in on this -- rather it looks like she (Munro) has created maudlin characters.
She's deliberately cruel. I don't often say one thing, intending to say another, purely by accident.
She (the character) admits the staginess of her retelling with: "This is the scene both comic and horrible, stagy and real." So she's saying -- this was absurd, but it happened. Good that she admits it looks stagy, at least.
But then we have: "He was in desperate need, as I am now, and I didn't pity him, and I'm not sorry I didn't." That is also a melodramatic, stagy sentence, but unlike the rest of the passage, the narrator doesn't acknowledge it, and Munro doesn't seem to recognize it.
Finally, I guess the theme -- I didn't pity this pathetic human being (look, by the way, at how pathetic he is) and I'm not sorry, even now that I am in his position -- just doesn't resonate with me. It basically celebrates cruelty.
If it was Munro's intent to create a sucky narrator, fine. It worked with Humbert Humbert. But I don't get from the passage that it was Munro's intent. What I get from the passage is that Munro intended one thing and created another. That's Munro's fault.
Then again, I'm not looking at the whole story, so perhaps I'm misreading it, which would be my fault.
Good that she admits it looks stagy, at least.
It looks like everyone will disagree with me, but this is what irritated me the most in the passage. There are probably exceptions, but in general I don't like it when fiction refers to fictional events as seeming fictional, even though real people say the same thing about real events.
SB, I was trying to finesse that.
Oops, sorry.
text - clearly I think that sentiment is much more common than you do. I'll have to try to convince of this. In the meantime, just as a filler example, have you ever seen Before Sunrise? The Ethan Hawke character talks about it this phenomenon with regard to the woman in Spain who blew him off.
I have seen Before Sunrise, and liked it, as well as the sequel, Ethan Hawke Is Now Wrinkled. I liked the sequel better, probably. I don't remember exactly what Ethan Hawke said about the woman in Spain, but I remember the anecdote.
If you mean that inabilty to sympathize is a common human condition, I agree. People are often cruel. I guess it's the acknowledging-your-own-cruelty-and-remaining-unrepentant part that I find bothersome.
Aren't the narrator (and the man interested in her) the very definition of "priss"? Isn't that reason enough for rejection of the bit quoted? (And by extension, Munro any children or intellectual heirs, and all Canadians?)
bestiality is really a neglected topic in literary fiction
Think how much worse it would be if we didn't have Scooter Libby to address this need!
There are probably exceptions, but in general I don't like it when fiction refers to fictional events as seeming fictional, even though real people say the same thing about real events.
I Agree with this, though it might be funny if people in plots with lots of coincidence continually remarked upon how happily coincidental such and such was and how it's just like in a story, etc.
As for trembling and dropping the spoon, I reiterate my invocation of Horace in the other thread.
bestiality is really a neglected topic in literary fiction
Emerson, have you ever seen this Albee play?
Totally screwed up that link, didn't I?
And goats everywhere shuddered in fear.
Try singing #119 to the tune of Darryl Hall's "Your Kiss is on my List".
Emerson, I saw The Goat and in addition to the man-on-goat action there are also a number of discussions related to underage attraction and even a few cock jokes. If there was ever a play for you, that is it.
Pardon my breaking in on the bestiality discussion, but I missed a turn back at the opening of this thread.
Was the game Ogged was playing the one called "everyone guess what Ogged was hiding in the back of his head while writing Seasons, and whoever guesses wrong has to apologize to Ogged"?
I don't think I'm sophisticated enough for this place.
No, the game is "Let's pretend we didn't notice Ogged's psychotic episode, and let's ridicule anyone who doesn't go along with us."
Ogged, Elizabeth Clare Prophet is the answer.
Have we reached the point where we're pretty sure Emerson isn't joking anymore?
I did raise goats once. It was 30 years ago, How I miss them, especially Blanca.
Oh, that's a much nicer game. I'm always forgiving others their psychotic breaks, as they forgive me mine.
'Blanca" sounds so much more polite than "Whitey"
By the way, the comment about the Russians winning the armless race was wonderful.
127: MHS, To whom are you responding? And what do you mean by "psychotic?" I have to say, from bitter experience, that it is generally better to forgive others' psychotic breaks, so long as those others are willing to deal with them.
Sorry, Boston. I was responding to John Emerson,124: No, the game is "Let's pretend we didn't notice Ogged's psychotic episode.
I was just speaking carelessly, or hyperbolicly (is that a word?) using 'psychotic' to mean anything eccentric. I've been lucky enough never to have had a full psychotic break, nor be around one. Sounds like you've had a harder life.
130 -- I believe it is a word but is spelled hyperbolically.
Thank you. I've made a note to myself that in my next life I'm going to pay attention in grade school when everyone is supposed to be learning to spell. It's number 8,382 on that list.
