Re: Probably Not What Betty Friedan Had In Mind

1

Once in a fantasies conversation, my college boyfriend said he wanted to have a two women threesome. "Okay," I said, "Right after we have sex with another guy." He declined.


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 2:57 PM
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because I'm a feminist.

That might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 2:58 PM
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That might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Wait, I have competition! An otherwise intelligent friend of mine once complained about the ambulance noise in her Battery Park City neighborhood. "Don't they know this is a residential area?" she asked. "Can't they take another route?"


Posted by: Tia | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:00 PM
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two guys together could easily overpower a girl so that would be unsafe for the female participant.

This is the best bit. "There will be absolutely no sex, unless the participants can be divided into equally matched single-sex combat teams. Large, strong ,women, may have sex with one man at a time: all other women, pair up and discuss tactics!"


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:02 PM
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Nothing's sexier than a guy who tries to lecture women on feminism.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:03 PM
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I once had a woman ask me, in all seriousness, how many quarters were in a football game.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:03 PM
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That might be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

My thoughts exactly. It was at that point I thought "Boy, am I glad you don't know that I blog because I am SO making fun of your ass on it for that comment."


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:03 PM
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This is the reason you have to be very careful having the threesome fantasy conversation--it quickly leads to awkward places where you either end up saying incredibly stupid things like this or you have to admit that yes, I am a selfish pig who is only concerned about his own pleasure.


Posted by: Idealist | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:08 PM
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Not exactly relevant, but I've had two interesting conversations with women who have had exeperienece with male-male-female three ways. One said she only liked it when the guys were very gay, and spent a lot of time with each other, because otherwise she felt double teamed. The other woman said that she only liked male-male-female threesomes when the guys were very straight, because she wanted to feel double teamed.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:10 PM
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I am a selfish pig who is only concerned about his own pleasure

I think the admission is more along the lines of the last sentence of the post.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:10 PM
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Unless you're high as a kite on the proper drugs, threesomes are much, much better in theory than in execution.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:13 PM
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Wouldn't want to slip on a banana peel.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:16 PM
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Unless you're high as a kite on the proper drugs, threesomes are much, much better in theory than in execution.

like so much of life.


Posted by: rob helpy-chalk | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:18 PM
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Unless you're high as a kite on the proper drugs, threesomes are much, much better in theory than in execution.

Is alcohol one of the proper drugs? 'Cuz that worked out OK. Weed was better.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:22 PM
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14: Straight from the TMI department - I was thinking hallucinogens, ecstasy, and meth, actually. It's worked out okay on alcohol and weed, but nowhere near my sweet, fevered imagination.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:25 PM
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Everything looks better in black and white.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:27 PM
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re: 10

Maybe, though the two concerns are related. Even more, I think it's a sexual jealousy thing with a strong double standard thrown in. But yes, many complicated reactions.


Posted by: Idealist | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:27 PM
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The Feminist had also never considered that the two girls in a 2F+M threesome might want to, you know, actually have sex with each other at some point and not spend the entire evening servicing him.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:30 PM
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The Feminist might be a follower of pr0n, in which I'm told 2M+F encounters often have nothing to do with teh ghey but a lot to do with humiliating the woman.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:39 PM
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10

"It ain't no fun, if the homies can't have none"

I don't think mff is inherently more unequal than mmf. It all depends on the participants.


Posted by: David Weman | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:40 PM
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Well of course not. He might be able to overpower them while they were distracted.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:40 PM
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21 was to 18, and while I'm at it I posted 12 but my info didn't show. My browser's having problems with javascript, I think.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:42 PM
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He might be able to overpower them while they were distracted.

Which Pink Panther movie is it where Clouseau has instructed his Korean valet to unexpectedly attack him for training purposes? I'm picturing the threesome sort of like that.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:46 PM
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I've never understood the appeal of threesomes. The geometry involved is just too confusing.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:47 PM
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So, you're saying trig was a problem?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:48 PM
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19 there is a MMF porno marketed to the gay men that does not humiliate the woman and is pretty f$%^ing gay. I have found that such representations are not without their attractions.


Posted by: Mark | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:51 PM
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Sohcahtoa it to me!


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:52 PM
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23: I was under the impression that that was a running gag in more than one movie.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:52 PM
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28: almost all I think.


Posted by: David Weman | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 3:54 PM
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Not "the english patient".


Posted by: Joe O | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 4:03 PM
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so, you think he would have been ok with it if both guys were bound first?


Posted by: soubzriquet | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 4:13 PM
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The power relations are more easily handled when one participant is an inflatable doll. There is, AFAIK, a distinct lack of variety in male dolls, but perhaps one could dress up a Sybian.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 4:16 PM
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I haven't read the whole thread, and I (obviously) agree that the "feminist" thing is idiotic, but I can sort of see where he's coming from. I'm not a threesome sort, but I'd be more uncomfortable with two guys and a woman than the reverse. Probably part of it is teh gay, but part of it really is that groups of guys + sex really make me nervous. See prior discussions of strippers at bachelor parties.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 4:37 PM
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SCMT, Remarks like that normalize male sexual violence.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 5:21 PM
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And it's totally racist.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 5:21 PM
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And communist.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 5:26 PM
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Bukkake! But only consensual. Bukkake!


Posted by: Mr. B | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 5:35 PM
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The original guy's comment is dumb given who it's coming from but it totally makes sense, given that these things tend to happen when all of the participants are less than sober, for a woman to worry about the power dynamics when there are two guys involved.

It makes it a lot harder to say no if one party or other comes to have second thoughts.

That said, the guy totally sounds like he is just worried about catching ghey cooties.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:06 PM
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37 - Unfogged: Site of the first-ever internet-caused divorce.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:12 PM
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39 - Shit woman, I'd bet there've been thousands and thousands. 'Sides, bit of the pot and kettle, ain't it?


Posted by: Mr. B | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:27 PM
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Not "the english patient".

"The English patient" and "the English agent" are actually the names of two highly specialized BDSM maneuvers.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:42 PM
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40: I have never expressed a desire, in public or in private, to pee all over your face.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:45 PM
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43

Bukkake doesn't involve urine.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:47 PM
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Yes, I'm aware, but it's the closest approximation I can produce reliably.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:49 PM
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45

Really?


Posted by: Mr. B | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:55 PM
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There should be a kind of porn where a crowd of women menstruates all over a man. I would get off like you wouldn't believe.

As it stands, no Actual Existing Porn satisfies me.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 6:58 PM
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No Actual Existing Porn


Posted by: Joe O | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:00 PM
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45: I am serious about that divorce threat.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:06 PM
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There should be a kind of porn where a crowd of women menstruates all over a man.

I'd bet good money that it exists.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:07 PM
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I thought bukkake was a noodle dish.


Posted by: The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:13 PM
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Apostropher, It would at least have to be rare, just because of the obvious logistical problems involved.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:15 PM
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Well, yes, the crowd aspect would be tricky.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:17 PM
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Bukkake is also a noodle dish.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:18 PM
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In fact, I would be willing to bet up to 25 that although certainly people have conceived of doing a porn performance of the kind I have delineated, no one in fact has succeeded in doing so.


Posted by: Adam Kotsko | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:30 PM
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You may have found your calling, Adam.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 7:35 PM
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If he were truly a feminist, he would let her strap one on and "dig it out" as the kids say. A little balance of the penetration and conquest, hmm?


Posted by: stroll | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 8:11 PM
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Stroll makes a good point. What positions does he imagine these hypothetical girl-power threesome-mates taking vis-a-vis him, anyway?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 8:15 PM
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Explicit discussion of the geometry of threesomes is yet another example of the debasement of our public culture. You're embarrassing the angles.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 8:18 PM
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The geometry of threesomes must be extremely carefully calculated along with emotional and physical risk factors. One cannot make such a thing happen; one allows fate to provide it, much like the aligning of planets. At least, if one cares about those involved. And, if one has a long guilty streak. But when those planets align, it is your life's duty to make it count.


Posted by: A White Bear | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 8:34 PM
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59: absolutely; as you note geometry is crucial. and the emotional risk factors are combinatoraly worse --- but.....


Posted by: soubzriquet | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 8:37 PM
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46, 56: Jesus, I am going to have to break up with *everyone I know* if this thread keeps going.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 8:47 PM
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61: Hence my position in #33.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 8:58 PM
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You may have a point; perhaps this is why I'm completely uninterested in the threesome scenario.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 9:31 PM
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64

You only say that because we live hundreds of miles apart.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:00 PM
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She wants you all to herself, Apo.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:03 PM
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I'm surprised you didn't have a heart attack, apo.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:08 PM
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I only skimmed the thread quickly, but I didn't notice any guys fessing up to mmw preferences. Is it time for me to start pretending that of course the thought doesn't make me hot and bothered?


Posted by: Chris | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:09 PM
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If you're referring to my diet, everybody is surprised every day. If you're referring to the basketball, I lived through the 8-20 season.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:10 PM
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67: Yes.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:10 PM
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there is a MMF porno marketed to the gay men that does not humiliate the woman and is pretty f$%^ing gay.

Hm. I've never found it and God knows I've looked. Most of the MMF pron I've seen is teh lamer.

Men who proclaim themselves feminists to women make me squirm a little anyway--when thou prayest, enter into thy closet ...

But, really. You're kinky (or stoned or lucky) enough to have a threesome but too finicky to touch same-sex genitalia? Uncool, dude, uncool.


Posted by: Paul | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:11 PM
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I lived through the 8-20 season

The fact that you say this in the singular only shows how lucky you are that UNC is nearly always very good.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:14 PM
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Total points to Chris for fessing up to being down with MMF. Once again, he delurks boldly.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:16 PM
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Oh yeah, I totally can't understand why anyone would be into that mmf stuff. It's just bizarre. But I would say that, wouldn't I? I am a feminist after all.


Posted by: Chris | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:16 PM
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72: Ooops. Sorry to let you down so thoroughly.


Posted by: chris | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:18 PM
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Threesomes are a pain in the ass. First one I tried, everybody involved was too damn drunk; the second one, nobody was drunk enough.


Posted by: Isle of Toads | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:18 PM
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everybody involved was too damn drunk

Wrong drug, yo.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:40 PM
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wo guys together could easily overpower a girl

The longer I ponder this, the sillier it gets. I'm a fairly burly 200-pound guy. But adult women aren't five-year-olds. Working in coordination, two 130-pound women could overpower me—particularly with my testicles exposed. I mean, really.

Besides, any women I've known well enough to have a threesome with wouldn't have to say "I'm not comfortable with this" twice because, well, I know them. Very, very well, obviously.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 10:52 PM
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Besides, any women I've known well enough to have a threesome with wouldn't have to say "I'm not comfortable with this" twice because, well, I know them.

I think this is the key, Apo. If threesomes are a real possibility for you then there's probably a rough guide to how it happens, and happens safely, that you know or can sort out. In which case - more the merrier, or whatever would be appropriate.

But if threesomes seem unlikely to be in your future (me), it seems like the sort of thing that happens when everyone gets drunk and flirty, and no one's thinking too clearly, etc. In which case, you worry.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 11:02 PM
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Only 2 comments.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 11:07 PM
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75 Threesomes are a pain in the ass.

60 geometry is crucial

That said the three body problem remains mysterious.


Posted by: Mr. B | Link to this comment | 03-17-06 11:51 PM
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80: See, they were pretty much exactly like that, only with more awkward groping and guilt.


Posted by: Isle of Toads | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 12:35 AM
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there is a MMF porno marketed to the gay men that does not humiliate the woman and is pretty f$%^ing gay.

Not a porn and not tehgay, but Y Tu Mama Tambien would qualify.

(In other news I considered calling a game I asked my students to participate in "Group Sex" but pulled out at the last minute.)


Posted by: ogmb | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 2:09 AM
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but pulled out at the last minute.

You should really wear a condom -- withdrawal is not reliable for birth control and provides no disease protection.

One of the first porn movies I saw (trip to Montreal as a 16-year-old, very excited to be able to go illicitly into bars, strip joints and porn theaters, so much so that I totally neglected acquainting myself with the city) was a mmf scenario with one of the men "in the middle" instead of, as you might expect, the woman. That was very exciting and I have never since seen a porn movie with a similar scenario. The standard porn mmf scenario is arousing but not to anything like the same degree.


Posted by: The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 4:46 AM
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What positions does he imagine these hypothetical girl-power threesome-mates taking vis-a-vis him, anyway?

I'm reminded of Albert Finney's whine during the threesome scene in The Green Man: "I want to be in the middle!"


Posted by: JL | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 4:47 AM
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MK, you're only 16 once, alas. In this life you will never see anything that good again.

Sorry to take away all hope, but life is hard.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 6:20 AM
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Dang. I am way late in on this one. Threesomes are tough, no matter how you slice em. I'm an F, and partial to the MMF, because I like a lot of cock. But if I'm in a serious relationship, I don't mind another girl.

But the math gets way easier, if the numbers go up.

(Name withheld, because my mum knows my screen name. But I know you know.)


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 6:28 AM
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And speaking of screen names, might I suggest we use 2M+F or some alternate non-screenname-resembling shorthand for that particular threesome permutaton out of respect for our Paris-dwelling co-commentor?


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 7:39 AM
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But is that what she wants, MAE? For all we know she's acting as the representative to Unfogged from a major international orgy consortium - which is, after all, home to a couple of renowned cock theorists - and she's chosen her screen name to imply just that. To assume...ass...etc.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 7:46 AM
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While your theory is intriguing, SCMT, it is not supported by the data.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 9:19 AM
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might I suggest we use 2M+F

Shouldn't we also distinguish between MFM and MMF, geometry-wise?

Thanks for the advice, Modesto. That would get me into even more trouble.


Posted by: ogmb | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 12:25 PM
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Shouldn't we also distinguish between MFM and MMF, geometry-wise?

Where angles fear to tread.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 12:39 PM
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Oh boy, structural isomers!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 12:55 PM
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FFF + 3FFM + 3FMM + MMM = (F + M)**3


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 12:57 PM
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= hott.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 1:05 PM
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I don't think it really matters what we call it, so long as it's clear that we're united in our disapproval.


Posted by: Chris | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 1:09 PM
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In this life you will never see anything that good again

So ya sayin', the only thing for it is to martyr myself in jihad in hopes of something better in the next one?


Posted by: The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 1:22 PM
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note to DHS: I am not a terrorist.


Posted by: The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 1:23 PM
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i found this thread a little late, am feeling a little schizophrenic reading it!

alas (as the case may be) I don't know french philosophers or associations of the SCMT sort. one of my favorite french philosophers is known to have said in print that his favorite form of pleasure was being fisted in the rear while on PCP. (i know: PCP?) but he died in the 1980s so he is not around anymore.

that was foucault if you were wondering.


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 3:37 PM
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being fisted in the rear while on PCP

Well shucks, who doesn't like that?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 4:50 PM
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being fisted in the rear while on PCP ... that was foucault

Some clarification for the ignorant, please: is this serious? I'd really like to know.


Posted by: Urple | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 6:45 PM
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Isn't he the guy somebodyJackmormon asked Tia about catching HIV in a San Francisco bathhouse, back when we were playing that weird 20 questions variant?


Posted by: The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 6:47 PM
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Oh and BTW -- Hilzoy links to this beautiful entry at Chaucerblog: "And oure bloode was hotte for werre & eke, as eftsoones we lernede, for othir thynges."


Posted by: The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 6:49 PM
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You just don't care, do you, Modesto Kid?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 7:00 PM
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Oh, my goodness -- I'm sorry. Missed that the first time around.


Posted by: The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 03-18-06 7:07 PM
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yep, Urple - it was in an interview.

it's kind of interesting given what he wrote about how we're encouraged in modern culture to "confess" our sexuality, talk about it, turn it into an "identity."

he also used to demonstrate in favor of better conditions for prisoners - which, if you think about his prisons and madness books, is really great.


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 03-19-06 6:27 AM
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But maybe that totally lame-o feminist line actually worked, somwhere, sometime.

I know, I know, shudder at the thought an all, but haven't we all--at one time or another--seen a mind-bogglingly stupid line work in the most improbable circumstances? This could be another one. For all we know, the object of our scorn is positively rolling in hott ffmness...


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 03-19-06 5:54 PM
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Ok, so the "I'm a feminist" guy is lame, but...

The two women who were the other women in a couple of silly orgies I had when I was young have remained some of my closest friends, and I do think our friendship has a lot to do with having stripped it down to that level, as it were.

One of these friends, within a year after our good experiences, went with the guy involved in her and my FMF hookup into a MFM hookup and came out of it feeling very bad for reasons she couldn't exactly articulate. This was a very intelligent, very logical, very honest, very sexy woman.

So my personal experiences with This Sort of Thing tend to bear out Becks's friend's observations. If I knew more people who'd had wonderful experiences in MFM hookups, my anecdota would be different. Maybe those people aren't telling me about their wonderful expereriences.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 03-19-06 6:27 PM
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My buddy and I had tons of wonderful experiences, but we had to change bitches frequently.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 03-19-06 6:33 PM
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Everybody's so shy this evening!


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 03-19-06 6:36 PM
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I'm not. I'm just bad at trig.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 03-19-06 6:50 PM
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But maybe that totally lame-o feminist line actually worked, somwhere, sometime. . . . For all we know, the object of our scorn is positively rolling in hott ffmness...

How hot can it be when both the women are really dumb?

Don't answer that. It's a rhetorical question.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 03-19-06 8:00 PM
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From what The Feminist told me, the "hott FFMness" was, at the time of our conversation, still an unrealized fantasy.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 03-19-06 8:02 PM
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Was he discussing it with you as a venue to realizing the fantasy?


Posted by: The Modesto Kid | Link to this comment | 03-20-06 7:40 PM
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