Labor is the very opposite wing of the left from hippies. Not that I'm not fond of hippies myself, but I was raised union, Democrat, and to sneer at hippies.
LB is right, Tim, the proper insult is "commie."
The full form, as delivered by my father (I believe, but I am not certain, quoting my grandfather) is "Eleanor Roosevelt pinko liberal."
I'll read the book. Maybe it will change my mind.
Communist.
5: You won't regret it -- it's an entertaining read, even if that's all you take from it.
I've noticed a definite shift toward labor issues within the wonk left over the five years I've been on the internet.
I've had many disputes with Kevin Drum, but he's reliably pro-labor. He's a centrist, but a strongly pro-labor centrist.
I'll put it on the wish list for the next time I order a few books--I'm actually really interested in organized labor issues for the 21st century. You know, what with having been a grad student and all.
I know him (Geoghegan) slightly. I'm a fan of all his books. I like The Secret Life Of Citizens too, and recommend his pamphlets.
recommend his pamphlets.
Not helping.
10: Cool. He's one of the people who meeting would reduce me to stammering fannishness.
I am moving toward a more pro-union stance. Everyone who's really pro-labor, pace Ezra, should avoid Whole Foods, because they are just as anti-union as Wal-mart.
I want to read the book. Do you think that a good library would have it? I can probably get it from a university library, if I have to, but if the Minuteman Network (public library) has it, that would be easier. I don't want to ask LB to buy me one.
The SEIU moved me over to the pro-labor camp a couple of years ago. I still get fed up with some of the old-liine unions, particularly city employees.
In the recent healthcare campaign in Massachusetts several groups pledged to gather ballot petitio signatures. The faith communities gathered a plurality of the signatures and was over target Neighbor to Neighbor was also great. The carpenters and other trade unions had a very small number of signatures that they were suposed to collect, and they totally failed to deliver what they'd promised.
When I was out collecting signatures, I would occasionally run into utterly selfish and ultimately short-sighted attitudes from some union members. One guy said, "I'm a city employee. My union got me great benefits. This doesn't matter to me." It was an "I've got mine, now screw you" attitude that really pissed me off.
Plus, other than the SEIU, the unions seem remarkably white.
How is his name pronounced? jo-HEE-gan? JO-'igan? Something else?
I used to have the opening paragraph of TG's book on a small sign on my desk:
"'Organized labor.' Say those words, and your heart sinks. I am a labor lawyer, and my heart sinks. Dumb, stupid organized labor: this is my cause."
I don't think my union clients were too fond of it. Such touchy bastards, they were.
G'yay gan, iirc.
Two of my friends are organizers: afscme and seiu. They don't speak to one another.
I read Geoghegan's book in a post-war US history course in college. I remember thinking it was astonishingly well-written, truly a great read, but was pretty thin on substance and not terribly convincing.
Bostongirl -- You can probably get it used it at half.com for less than a buck. As for the impression that unions seem so, as you say, "remarkably white," Nathan Newman has a few encouraging things to say about that (and the labor movement more generally) here: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/13/103516/674
Kevin Drum isn't reliably pro labor. He'll occasionally scold workers in industries sufficiently organized to have achieved a decent standard of living for further organizing and/or striking to maintain it, prevent backward slippage, or make gains.
I have to say that it was pretty damned moving when hardboiled Teamsters finally agreed that, yes, we grad students were on strike, and that, yes, this was a picket line, and that, no, hell, no, they didn't cross labor picket lines.
afscme and seiu. They don't speak to one another
I think the custodians at my public college were affiliated with both; don't know if there were any turf battles, though.
Is there really that much hostility between different unions?
It is cheaper than 1 dollar on Half.com.
Bostoniangirl - even if minuteman doesn't have it themselves you can get pretty much any book on the planet via interlibrary loan. It is generally for free. They say they may charge a fee but I've never had that happen to me in years of ILL usage. Plus it is kinda cool to see where the book comes from. Once I got an out of print, semi-rare book on Japanese architecture that came from a library on a Montana reservation.
21: Yup, I had the same experience.
When I was a kid, we went somewhere where folks were on strike. My parents were good lefties, which meant they didn't intend to cross the line, but that they also believed in reasoning with small children. I think the deal was that it was something for me we were doing, but I don't know what. Anyway, since it was for me, Mom explained very carefully what it meant that these people were on strike, and why we shouldn't cross the line, and then asked me what I thought we should do. I said, "we should cross the line."
I have a vivid memory of my Mom apologizing to the strikers.
When PK and I came across a picket line once, I just said, "nope, not crossing" instead of soliciting his opinion.
26- I've just thought about it and realized I've never had an occasion to even think about crossing a picket line. I've seen a few, but only in front of factories that I had no interest in entering.
Does this say something bad about me, or about organized labor today? Or both or neither?
I've never seen a picket line at all.
My union-pipefitter-Chicago-Irish-Amurickan grandfather claims that no on crossed picket lines before Bush 41.
I wonder if you guys haven't seen picket lines and not realized it. The grad student picket lines I've seen from the outside looked like scraggly protests at random locations; from the inside, I know that each location was chosen to block a delivery artery, and that a couple of people ready to discuss labor politics with, say, Teamsters were enough to disrupt business as usual. Undergrads (the consumers in this situation) were always free to come and go, although some classes were cancelled and others relocated. The goal was to hurt the university's bottom line while "raising awareness." Not that I think being so tactical as to be almost invisible is really a good technique.
I went to class when I was an undergrad and the grad students may or may not* have been striking.
*You couldn't always tell.
I tend to the view that i) picket lines should not be crossed and ii) very bad things should happen to scabs.
The AUT were on strike one day earlier this year and although I'm not an AUT member -- grad student/adjunct/TA-type currently -- I rescheduled my teaching to make sure I had no classes that day. Token gesture, etc. but I wasn't about to teach on a day when everyone else was on strike.
I've never seen a picket line either.
I've been in charge of one. It provides a hell of an insight into the nature of certain humans (defined in the broadest possible sense). It's also amazing how brilliant and supportive a lot of people are who have absolutely no dog in the fight. If you generally support labour, and you're walking past a picket line, stop for a minute and ask about the dispute. If you don't have time, just give them a thumbs up. You have no idea what a difference it makes.
I think 80 to 85% of Swedish employees are in a union. I guess strikes are rare.
If you don't have time, just give them a thumbs up. You have no idea what a difference it makes.
When my mother was on strike back in the 80's, passers-by brought coffee out to the picket line a couple of times. She appreciated it a great deal. I was very pleased this winter to get to do the same thing for the MTA guys picketing the bus depot down the street from my place.
The grad student picket line at a university I was at was barely noticeable unless you were an undergrad in the dorms at 7am when they started banging their drums, and was roundly mocked as 'the only picket line in existence where the picketers are wearing Abercrombie and drinking Starbucks.'
I remember giving some of my pocket money (I was 11) to picketing miners during the 1983/84 miners' strike.
My dad was also on a fairly long strike (he was an ambulance driver for a while) around 1990 but my memories of that are vague.
I (gulp!) crossed a picket line at the grocery stores in St. Louis more than once (but less than four times). I should not have done this.
I also went to class somewhat regularly this year. GSOC has been on strike since November, and told us in e-mail that they feel that picketing one building on campus is picketing all. I don't think I possibly could have complied with that.
My grandfather was UMW, although he was a surface-level carpenter at Springhill, N.S. All-workers-on-site organization was a breakthrough for "industrial organizations;" before that they'd been locked up in the craft unions which made negotiation or effective action impossible. Is it in WSAUO? where G asks his little brother who John L. Lewis was, and he doesn't know? I knew. I was raised on that stuff, and a lot of family and friends helped the education. I didn't literally dream I saw Joe Hill, but knew the references. When the U of C Libraries unionized in the late '70s, I was a Teamster for a while.
I was under the impression that all liberal U.S. parents raised their children to know better than to cross a picket line, the same way they raised us to wear seat belts or wait 30 minutes after eating before swimming. Was that just my family? I've seen lots of picket lines (where do the people who've never seen one live, btw?), have never crossed one and would feel terribly uneasy about doing so -- it would be like walking under a ladder.
No--my parents raised me that way, it's just that their initial attempt to teach the lesson didn't work out the way they intended it to.
In other "you're kidding me" news, I was shocked to find out that Mr. B. had never been to a protest until we went to the March for Women's Lives in Washington a couple years back.
Re 22. Yes. For many years most of the conflicts were contained within the AFL-CIO -- there were provisions in the constitution so that member unions would differnet arguments over jurisdiction settled in house. But when more than one union had a clear shot at a territory, then there would be a massive conflict. And the internal dispute mechanisms built up a lot of bitterness among losers etc. All of this helped propel the Change to Win split.
The split in the labor movement means that there are really no rules, and that the norms governing this sort of turfiness have frayed substantially. Now, in addition to being under seige from the outside, the unions all pretty much feel under siege from eachother. For example, the Laborers are likely to leave AFL-CIO soon and join Change to Win. That's seen as a victory for C2W and defeat for AFL. And it is. But a subtext is that this makes it easier for the Laborers to manage their conflictual relationship with the Carpenters.
From what I've seen, the unions are still able to work together on big issue stuff, and are trying to build stopgap institutions to bridge the divide so that politics can happen. But its tense.
But I don't think that's conventional anymore. I was brought up that way, but high school friends, who were often much leftier and more politically sophisticated than I was, were often very unaware of labor issues. And since high school, I've seen a lot of direct hostility to unions from people who are otherwise generally on the left.
46: E.g., me. If I haven't crossed picket lines, it's because I haven't seen them. I didn't know that people not in the union or an affiliated union weren't supposed to cross picket lines. In my earlier years, knowing wouldn't have changed my behavior at all, except to spur me on. Now...maybe.
Just to be clear--when there are picket lines, no one is supposed to cross them. Is that right?
where do the people who've never seen one live, btw?
New Mexico. There is very little industry in the southwest, and most service workers aren't unionized. There's UMW, but mines are pretty isolated and they don't strike very often anymore anyway. Grocery workers are also union, and they're the most likely to strike and form picket lines, but they haven't when I've been around. Aside from those, most unions are public sector and forbidden by law from striking.
Depends on the picket line. There are purely informational picket line, and there are lines aimed at particular services rather than consumers (see Jackm's 32 -- picketers trying to stop deliveries to the school rather than to discourage students from going to class.) But if you see a picket line and it's unclear to you, you should ask.
(And, you know, not every strike is incontrovertibly something I'd support. I could conceive of deliberately crossing a picket line out of informed opposition to the goals of that particular strike. But generally, I don't cross.)
Wow. Yes Tim. If there is a picket line it means that the people who work in that establishment are lifting their voices and putting themselves on the line to try get changes they like, or (as is so often the case thesedays) to prevent ones they fear. The picket line during a lockout or a strike is a statement to the world about their struggle. Its a statement of their power. But its also a request for help. You shouldn't cross it.
But the last picket line I walked was an "informational picket." Our goal was to give people information about the struggle the union was in. And to signal to management that the union was committed and that the membership had a commitment to fight. You can and should cross informational pickets. The best way to tell which is which is to talk to the people on the line. They will generally be glad to talk to you.
There are occasional examples of a union bringing in temps to work the line, which strikes me as strange and poor policy. But i still wouldn't cross.
There is a restaurant near me where the union was busted five ro six years ago. They have new managment now, and I'm only just bringing myself to go there for lunch.
public sector and forbidden by law from striking.
And this absolutely stinks. (It's true in NY, too, and it stinks here.)
I once heard a great phrase (I can't remember where) in response to that, which is, every strike is illegal.
Re 53 - New mexico's law is a little different than NY's. I think there is binding arbitration for dispute resolution. There is a long story there that speaks to my comment in 45.
Basically, New Mexico was one of the more recent states to adopt a public employee bargaining law. And when they did it, they included a sunset provision. When it sunset, Gary Johnson was the governor. And he vetoed reauthorization after reauthorization. So the legal status for bargaining for public employees disappeared. And there was a lot of hard organizing on the part of the unions there to try to keep things together. When he got elected, Gov. Richardson signed a new bargaining statute. It doesn't have right to strike, but most of the more recent laws for public employees don't.
but mines are pretty isolated and they don't strike very often anymore anyway
But New Mexico used to be very welcoming to striking miners.
When I was working at a museum in the mid-1990s, part of the cleaning staff was striking, and since I was a new hire I was asked to do some of their jobs--for instance cleaning up after the directors' luncheons. I refused. This may have had something to with not wanting to do it, however.
"The copper bosses killed you, Joe
They shot you, Joe," says I.
"Takes more than guns to kill a man,"
Says Joe, "I didn't die,"
Says Joe, "I didn't die."
Except that was in Salt Lake, not in Arizona.
55: Huh. Maybe I've only seen informational ones. (I can't swear I've seen any at all in person.) I think I would remember if I crossed a line when other people weren't.
Yes, do talk to the picketers. That was one of the other things I learned on the picket line: that picketing is dead boring.
Don't you mean "not in New Mexico," LB? And do you take your coffee without milk or without cream?
Mmm. I still owe an apology to the UFW for, in high school, having gotten a bunch of friends to volunteer to march with the UFW and carry the UFW grape boycott banner in a big march, and getting a little rowdy and creative with the chanting. (We were marching next to the Potheads for Legalization, who were excellent at coming up with interesting things to chant: "Grapes are toxic! Ate some, GOT sick!")
Sorry, Irv, wherever you are.
63 -- See, hippies aren't so bad.
Weiner is making a Hegelian point.
My mom used to be very active in her union, and she was involved in the initial push for collective bargaining that benton mentions in 55. It really sucked when it expired.
56: Huh, I wasn't aware of that. Have you seen Salt of the Earth?
I do so very much love the big inflatable rats that the labor unions use in NYC.
68: Haven't seen it, but I'll be sure to check it out.
Inflatable rats also used in Chicago. With cops, traffic tie-ups, honking. Always gives me a great-country/big-city feeling.
The rats are great.
But could we just retire "The people, united, have never been defeated"? Please?
Yes, chanting is a problem. The thing is, you need either hackneyed chants or substantial rehearsal time -- trying to get a fresh chant going is tricky (unless you have the PfL on your team.)
The best was when we had rats outside four separate buildings on the same block by where I work. It felt like we were in a monster movie.
73 - Much worse is "Hey hey, ho ho, ____ has got to go."
Maybe headphone wearing until the chant is known, or mp3 pre-distribution could solve the chant crisis. Let's get creative.
But could we just retire "The people, united, have never been defeated"? Please?
Or we could chant it only in Spanish.
74: 'Cause I'm all about helping out.
I'm a union lawyer, so obviously pro-labor, but I'm very new to the game and I find myself wavering, sometimes, about my commitment to this particular cause. Unlike most labor lawyers, I didn't start out "in the movement" and then decide to become a lawyer -- I went into law intending to do public interest work in the non-profit sector, but this opportunity came up and I took it. But I can't stop questioning my allegiances. Anyway, LB, this is all to say that I just put the book on order from my public library; perhaps it'll help me settle some of those ambivalences. Thanks a lot for the tip.
Anyone remember "Money for [two-syllable issue of the day] not for war! US out of El Salvador!" Thank heavens we eventually did get out -- that chant sucked.
80: Hey, that just made my day.
79: that chant is really disturbing.
The problem is that, to make the proposition true, one has to believe that the people are almost never sufficiently united to withstand defeat. The people I sang that chant with, for example, got completely crushed by a NLRB decision.
And, good God, is 79 all one song?
The people are never sufficiently united to do practically anything, so what's the problem?
83: Why? I didn't read all of it. I searched for "Let's all have a disco," which a soccer-mad friend used to chant when he got drunk. I don't think I'd even think of crossing a line if everyone were singing, "Let's all have a disco, let's all have a disco, la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la." I think I'd join them out of pure joy.
83 etc.: No, this is a disturbing football chant.
LB -- when I was in PUCS (Progressive Union of Columbia Students, a nonce organization formed so that we couple of friends could carry our own banner in marches), we marched with CISPES -- this was most of what we did besides a couple of Gulf War rallies. The chant you name was very popular, as was "Los Pueblos Unidos/ Hamas Sera Vincedos" (sp?)
When we were arrested at the federal building in lower Manhattan, we serenaded the cops on the way to booking with a modified Mouseketeers song.
M A O, T S E, DASH T U, N G....
Oh Mao Tse-Tung (Ho Chi Minh!),
Mao Tse-Tung (Ho Chi Minh!),
It's the bleak irony I object to, Ben. Not uplifting when it's cold out, you know?
88/91: I just found a discussion of some similar stuff here. The nicho/las.harri/son site linked in the comments, where I originally found these, is down, which is probably a good thing. (I was trying to figure out what dsquared was talking about; I understand all those chants are well banned now.)
43: Actually, I can't remember ever running into a picket line and I live in downtown Chicago.
When I was growing up in a suburb, though, Caterpillar (one of the biggest employers in that town) had a big strike that was on the news for months. Didn't turn out too well for the unions, though, since the company hired scabs and trained them up to do all the factory work very efficiently.
I'll have to check out these books, since I'm generally liberal but still have very little sympathy for the average union out there today. Do the books that Ezra recommends really give any solutions for the inflexibility of some labor unions, even when dealing with costs that could cripple an employer?
79: I was in Barcelona in 1999 when Man U. beat Bayern Munich. From what I could make out of the drunken singing they mainly repeated this part:
Taking over Barcelona
Taking over,
Taking over,
Taking over Barcelona.
After the game there was:
Who put the ball in the German net?
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer.
I know there were a few more chants, but I don't remember them.
In France in 1998, it was:
On va aux finales
On va aux finales
On va, on va,
On va aux finales.
Then:
On va gagner, etc.
Then:
On est champions, etc.
Then, pandemonium.
I had the tune stuck in my head for about three years afterwards.
Re 93. There are people either in or associated with the labor movement who do a lot of work on the financial status of employers. And you aren't likely to put yourself on the picket line to make big gains when the money isn't there to be had. There may be some unions out there that don't do serious research for stuff like this. But I haven't seen it.
Moreover, strikes are increasingly rare. The last really big strike I can think of was UPS, and that was over part timization of jobs. Although I suppose we should consider Northwest to be a strike, sort of. Anyone who goes out on a lark is, well, an idiot. Yes, I've heard people talk about it as if it was romantic and cool to stick it to the boss. But really, its not fun, it can be ugly, and its often not effective (thanks to a legal regime that severely limits the ability of the union to effectively use its full power - secondary strikes etc). As a result unions are really strike averse (some say too strike averse).
There are also people in the employer line of work who will say that they don't have any more money to pay for salaries and benefits etc. Simply put, sometimes this isn't true.
Yes, when you are playing defense, strikes sometimes happen simply because the proposed cuts are too terrible to bear without a fight. It might be more economically efficient not to rage against the dying of the night, but I understand why people rage.
73 -- when Fran Peavey was part of the (excellent) Atomic Comics she re-phrased that as "The people, united, will sometimes win and sometimes lose."
It didn't scan well, but seemed more accurate.
96: There are people either in or associated with the labor movement who do a lot of work on the financial status of employers. And you aren't likely to put yourself on the picket line to make big gains when the money isn't there to be had.
I agree with this entirely, but in the instances that I'm thinking of (automotive and airline industries, mostly), the money was only there for a few years due to a cyclical upswing. The unions locked in high but affordable benefits and wages during the good times, but refuse to compromise during the bad.
I don't doubt there are intelligent people working for unions who try and figure out the affordable wages, after all, there's loads of equity analysts out there who confuse temporary upswings for permenent trends. However, unions' inflexibility when the tide turns on an industry or business can be a real problem for the employer.
93: I'd go with the solution to inflexible labor unions crippling employers being, put the pressure not on the workers, but on the government, to pick up some of those crippling costs. Like maybe health insurance.
Re 98. I agree that when the ship is going down things get very complicated. But I think there is a lot more compromise and givebacks in both autos and airlines than you think. In fact, I get more than 16,000 hits when I google "givebacks" and "UAW." I get 1800 when I search ALPA (Airline Pilots Association) and givebacks. I get 26,000 when I search "flight attendants" and "givebacks." (Everybody thinks they can pick on the women). In some of the links the story is "We've given back enough, we don't want to give back more." Sometimes its "Management isn't giving anything, we don't want to walk the plank to save their golden parachute." But many, many of the stories seem to be about givebacks themselves. So, I don't think this is exactly right. Having actually been tangentially involved in giving back things that people depended on and trusted they would have, and seeing it just turn into calls for more, and feeling demoralized and defeated for it, I take a somewhat testy mien when faced with this argument, But I really did give back at the office.
Having said all that, people can get irrational about givebacks. Including me.
I get 26,000 when I search "flight attendants" and "givebacks." (Everybody thinks they can pick on the women).
That's Mom. Great moments in labor relations: Mom is on the phone with a straight male flight attendant during the 1985 strike, who says, outraged, "They think they can push us around just because we're women!" He'd lost track of the fact that he, personally, wasn't until Mom cracked up.
And 98: I think Benton has it right. I can't say that no inflexible union has ever brought a company down, but I can say (a) that it's in their self-interest not to -- no company, no jobs; (b) union leadership isn't necessarily all morons, so they know what's in their self interest; and (c) the record shows a lot of flexibility from a lot of unions.
Think there's a chance that the 'inflexible union' trope is at least partially scapegoating?
I was just talking with someone who's a labor organizer for the CWA (Communication Workers of America) about Geoghegan's book (she sort of knows him), and she strongly recommended the book Striking Steel.
The author's father was a U.S. Steel shop steward in the 50s and 60s, but in the 80s he turned into a Reagan Democrat. Part of the point of the book is trying to figure out what happened to the union movement and work in between these two periods to produce such a shift.
I think it's now next on my reading list.
