Using this time to catch up on your Derbyshire reading, are you?
an unconscionable dearth of "So-and-so is so hott!!" posts.
Later shortened to "Vader".
Eh, I dunno. Pretty, yes, but only reasonably (and not absurdly) so. She's got a little bit of a Celine Dion thing going on in the top-right picture, which is a deal-breaker.
mrh, are you nuts? She is absurdly pretty.
My question is, does pretty = hott? B/c I think of them as separate, if occasionally overlapping, categories.
Aw, man, that didn't take long.
I think she's only reasonably pretty. She's absurdly pretty for a news anchor, because they are usually more grossly blow dried looking than she is.
"Pretty" is just what you call the hott girls to their faces so they don't think you're a sexist pig.
No, pretty implies a kind of delicacy. Hot (of the one or two t variety) implies fuckability, which may or may not have anything to do with pretty.
Ha! Tia agrees with me, so I may not be nuts.
She's pretty -- she's even hot(t) -- but she wouldn't crack the top ten, which I think would be necessary for absurdity.
Yes, I called her "pretty" deliberately; she's not quite severe enough to be beautiful, and a little too genteel-looking to be hott. But she is absurdly pretty.
To Bridgeplate I say, bwahahaha!
Uh, I hope you're not taking 7 seriously...
she is both pretty and hot. I'm not sure what you mean by fuckability, but if you mean "gets into sex," that is often not detectable via photograph, and when it is a surprise, all the better.
Ok, hang on, I just watched some of the videos at the linked site, and in motion, she's even prettier.
11 gets it exactly right.
Teo, of course I'm taking 7 seriously. No backpedalling.
Also, as I think I've noted before, you're all on crack: those pictures are of her talking, not posing, and you all know how fucking stupid everyone looks when you snap a picture of them while they're talking. That she looks even borderline absurdly pretty in those pictures is simply evidence that she's absurdly pretty.
5: Huh?
I was hoping it would take more than, say, two measly comments before people took the bait.
Why do you hate bait,
Standpipe Bridgeplate?
I second #16, although with glasses I bet she'd be hot in a "naughty librarian" kind of way.
15: Okay, but I don't believe it so I'm not going to stand by it.
We have to indulge Ogged. He has cancer.
I've personally never met a pretty girl who I did not want to have sex with, putting aside all non-aesthetic considerations and moral constraints.
You're going to have to do better than that, Ogged. They're getting really nitpicky about scansion and stuff.
22 - Why do you think this post is called "Remedy"? Melissa Theuriau needs to cure what ails him.
Melissa Theuriau needs to cure what ails him.
Under her assumed name, Booty Callin's.
?She's pretty but there's something kind of bland and unmemorable about her features.
She's no Jumana Namour.
Is that a feral cedilla at the beginning of 30? These are strange times.
"Bland and unmemorable" is the difference between your garden-variety pretty, which is much of a muchness most of the time, and beautiful, which often has some kind of flaw that elevates it to the level of uniqueness.
For a straight woman you sure have a lot of categories for feminine attractiveness.
and beautiful, which often has some kind of flaw that elevates it to the level of uniqueness.
Yeah, like absurdly large breasts.
I think the pretty/hot distinction gets at more which sensory modality is envisioned as primary in relation to the object: visual or tactile. Not to say that one might be the sign of the other; one's visual pleasure derives from the signs of inferred potential tactile pleasure. (Potentiality of course cannot be taken in some counterfactual sense; neither the considerations text adduces in order to bracket in 23, nor this [comment 107], should be taken to count against potentiality in this sense.) But in hotness the presumptive tactile pleasure is known immediately rather than inferred.
No, absurdly large breasts definitely falls into "hot."
I can talk about men's looks, too, but this just doesn't seem to be the site for it. Anyway, straight women are just as bombarded with images of attractive women as you guys are.
So, Weiner, are you just trying to say that pretty refers to the face and hot to the body?
I would add a "natural" to 36. Absurdly large implants just look ridiculous.
It's likely I will be shouted down for this by the men.
Yeah, like absurdly large breasts.
Absurdly large natural breasts.
Wait, Becks, you're seriously engaging that comment? No, not quite -- Angelina Jolie I think is hot from face alone. Scarlett Johansson ditto. In fact this was inspired partly by a discussion I had in a restaurant a while ago about the difference between our waitress, who was cute, and our hostess, who was hott and looked something like ScoJo (and was named Tia). OTOH you may notice that so far my criterion for "hot from face alone" seems to be big lips.
Get back to work
You're assuming facts decidedly not in evidence.
Clive Owen is def hot, as uncool adults would say.
And in the spirit of the World Cup, I submit that David Beckham is just a pretty-boy, and not really hot, but Zidane is manly and hot.
Absurdly large implants just look ridiculous.
Just about all implants look ridiculous.
For a straight guy, you sure know a lot about the categories of male attractiveness.
This picture does not quite convey how insanely gorgeous this man is on screen.
I should have said, as Jonathan Rhys-Meyers would say, incredibly sensual lips.
Tia, those are douchebag hand gestures.
Don't breakdancers get to use the douchebag hand gestures or something?
to rephrase: aren't tv show breakdancers douchebags?
Wait, black dudes can use those hand gestures without seeming douchey, because what's most douchey about all those other guys is that they're from suburban Jersey but try to act like they're hard 'hood rats.
I would add a "natural" to 36. Absurdly large implants just look ridiculous.
It's likely I will be shouted down for this by the men.
I disagree, in that I've never seen anyone who I thought had breast implants. Since I have probably seen someone with breast implants, breast implants are not detectable to my eye. Therefore, they do not look any more ridiculous than disproportionately large natural breasts do.
In 57 the first two lines are both quotes.
That's great B, especially since the last part of his name, "nekounam" sounds precisely the same as the Farsi word for "my ass."
You don't get this kind of value-added on other blogs, you know.
54: That guy looks like Clive Owen.
pretty, hot, it's all just an order of magnitude difference in the category of people I want to have sex with.
Wait, black dudes can use those hand gestures without seeming douchey
Not if they've got a hat hanging from their belt that matches their armband, wristband, and shirt.
Although a non black guy could effortlessly out douche that ensemble with a popped collar and/or a backwards upsidedown visor.
The guy in 54 does fit my stereotype of what women would theoretically find attractive if they were interested in a man for reasons relating not just to his personality, though.
Jonathan Rhys Meyers does not.
Hey, that Iranian dude is good looking; you can see a hint of the Mongol invaders in him.
66: In that picture he looks even more like Clive Owen.
In fact, every time I've ever heard a woman say a man was attractive, he turned out to look like Clive Owen.
You don't have to make this more fun for me than it already is, SB.
Hot. Does not look like Clive Owen.
Or 72. Maybe it's time for me to go to bed.
Wait, 67 is the one who's so hot we might be willing to forgive him for endorsing Steve Forbes? WTF?
Wait, 67 is the one who's so hot we might be willing to forgive him for endorsing Steve Forbes? WTF?
Suddenly I find Republican policies more compelling.
Um, if I was going to post twice, maybe I should have got the number (67 s/b 72) right once. I blame Safari.
hey, when did we stop talking about hot chicks? I'm spending some more time with ogged's link now.
No, we can't forgive his politics, I just find him sexy.
Yaphet Kotto is in no way "hot," and you know it, B, you troll. You might find the man attractive for his charisma and presence, and he has a great speaking voice, but hot he's not.
He is hot. He is neither pretty nor beautiful nor handsome nor even especially good-looking, but he is definitely hot.
Bill Clinton has to be hot too, in person. B/c his weird nose is just totally gross, and yet he supposedly makes women swoon.
There's a difference between "hot" and magnetism or charisma.
Agreed. We are talking visual aspects here (or perhaps sensory).
And why is Yaphet Kotto not hot, hmmmmm?
I will explain all.
67 ("bouquet"), which I accidentally signed with a name I'd been saving for a comment on another thread, was a play on the subtle wine-snob aroma of ogged's 66 ("hint of Mongol invader").
In 70, ogged delights in my haplessness.
Actually, I don't get 72 either.
Finally, Yaphet Kotto is a Republican, and, at least for the duration of this sentence, so am I.
I thought we were joking about Kotto. I hate you all.
Because he seems to look somewhat like Michael Moore would if he cleaned up and got a tan?
I can't even believe we're debating this.
Are you shitting me? Michael Moore and Yaphet Kotto look nothing alike. They're both big men, and that's about it.
See what you did to the thread, B? We were all "Woo! Hotness!" and then you had to get all cute by bringing in 70 year old Republicans. Tsk tsk.
Well, yeah, that was an exaggeration meant to convey "pudgy and not good-looking." Still, that picture is not a picture of a hot person.
Let us compare. Kotto, again. Moore, finally wearing a decent pair of glasses.
Kotto: high brow; slightly arched eyebrow; intelligent, mischevious wide-open eyes with a bit of a droop at the corner that suggests a possible sadness/sensitivity; utterly charming smile lines; button nose (a large button, but still); full lips; cute little gap between front teeth; good facial structure; barrel chest; big, but solid.
Moore: Low, somewhat neanderthal brow; squinty eyes; chipmunky cheeks; narrow lips; pointy, nothing nose; no apparent jawline; slouchy posture; big in a soft, rather formless way.
No contest.
95 - Depends on your definition of "better", Weiner. Click your link.
Clive Owen is absurdly hot. Rhys-Meyers is beautiful. Melissa is TV-anchor pretty, Katie Couric girl-next-door pretty. Not hot. Mia Kirshner is pretty-hot.
34C or 36B is as big as I truly enjoy. De Gustibus.
Tho sometimes I like to slip into a lavender teddy.
93: Dude, Ned issued a challenge, and I had to think quickly of someone who is hot and not the least bit Clive Owenish.
34C or 36B is as big as I truly enjoy.
Resisting ... urge ... to ... lecture ... about ... bra sizing.
100 - I was just about to go there. What he's probably thinking of as 34C is someone who should really be wearing a 34DD. Minimum.
B, it's not about whether a lonely woman in cold nowheresville might find comfort in thoughts of a big warm-blooded man, but about whether Yaphet Kotto is, specifically, hot. And I thought you understood what "hot" means.
97: I meant, "A picture of YK where he looks better than in b's original link."
What about hot asian guy from the hotchickswithdouchebags thread? Did he look like Clive Owen?
Hey, I thought Kotto was hot back when I lived in somewheresville and had plenty of non-imaginary friends, you.
Yeah, but that was like, thirty years ago, when he looked pretty good.
But hot? For "hot", I think there must be some element of getting turned on by the idea of the person. Could you ever imagine thinking about Kotto while having sex?
Some enterprising blogger should post pictures of titties (hooray!) and have men and women give their estimates of proper bra sizes for said titties. I think this would be informative.
No, thirty years ago I lived in a different nowheresville, though I had friends. None of them were hot, though, given that we were all in fourth grade.
100:Naw. I don't need the lecture. I don't think. Narrow backs and all. What should I say:soup bowl? A half-canteloupe is bigger than I am attracted to.
106: If I were having sex with him? Sure.
107 - There's this but the women all appear to be wearing the wrong sized bras.
Okay, I'm tired. Off to bed and sweet dreams of Yaphet Kotto.
So, uh, does anyone else think this Kotto fellow is hot? Because I'm really not seing it.
What should I say:soup bowl? A half-canteloupe is bigger than I am attracted to.
At least up to the honeydew.
If we're all talking about hotness, can I get an opinion on the likelihood of Johnny Depp singlehandedly widening the safe zone for straight guys and makeup? Maybe I've been standing in too many bus shelters (that movie poster is everywhere), but I keep looking at the eyeliner etc.
It makes me wonder if the 20-year shift towards mainstreaming of male earrings and the 10-year shift toward lip balm are going to be overtaken by an even faster evolution in the "okayness" (at least in urbanized areas) of male makeup.
Mediocre visual here.
There are always periods when male musicians or actors wear a fair bit of make-up. It never really, as far as I can tell, escapes from various narrow subcultures and translates all the way into the mainstream.
Think of the 1970s (Bowie, Marc Bolan, etc.) and late 80s (all the big-hair LA bands) incarnations of glam rock. Or bits of the early 80s 'New Romantic' period or even Elvis, for that matter.
"Bland and unmemorable" is the difference between your garden-variety pretty, which is much of a muchness most of the time, and beautiful, which often has some kind of flaw that elevates it to the level of uniqueness.
In emeralds, we call it the jardin; in ordinary women, beauty, but in you, Bitch, your myriad flaws create something that no words can express.
There are always periods when male musicians or actors wear a fair bit of make-up. It never really, as far as I can tell, escapes from various narrow subcultures and translates all the way into the mainstream.
Thank god. My wife doesn't even wear very much, and it still looks like a huge pain in the ass to put on and take off. Chicks are all saying how hot Depp looks in it because they're trying to mess with us. I like the standards for beauty nice and unequal in my favor thank you very much.
Johnny Depp looks absurdly hot as Capn Jack. I think a lot of men would just look stupid though.
But Clive Owen is not hot. I think you lot must be somehow deluded by his Britishness. That Iranian football player though - oh yes :) And the French woman - very pretty, but doesn't do anything for me. Hottness is in the eye of the beholder?
As slolernr might say, "Johnny Depp looks hot in long hair, a scraggly beard, and makeup. You are not Johnny Depp. Don't even think about it."
Just for the record, I thought "absurdly pretty" was a good call.
Where does "cute" fall in all this? It seems different from pretty, though there would be some overlap.
There you go again, Adam, with that "heighten the contradictions" thing.
Late to the conversation, but I agree with you 57. - large breasts whether real or fake are both extremely hot - the thing that matters is that they "look natural" and real (note: this excludes the circus show freakish ones 5x bigger than her head of course). I'm not well versed in bra sizes, so I'd say like maybe DD or E as maybe as ultimate? When my wife was nursing and 42E , mmmm, nice!
As for guys, it's cool that DrB (96) thinks "barrel chest; big, but solid" can be hot too, because that's pretty much me. I can bench press 400lbs, for example, but am not without any body fat.
Oh yeah, I agree completely with differences in pretty vs beautiful vs hot. Pretty usually means attractive face, but not necessarly sexy body; beautiful usually means very attractive face and look/style; and hot usually always means sexy body (like large breasts, round ass, etc.), with an above average face.
Yaphet Kotto is not hot. Johnny Depp as Captain Jack is absurdly hot. God. I don't think I've ever wanted a fictional character so much. But asilon. Dude.
Cup size is determined by band size, so it's really hard to say. Someone who is a 32F will look a lot smaller than someone who is a 42D. Add to that the fact that most women are wearing too big of a band size and too small a cup size means that guys who insist they like 36Cs probably like 34Ds just fine.
I am of the opinion that the difference between pretty and beautiful is 99% a difference between average and expensive grooming.
There are people who actively prefer smaller breasts. I've dated and/or hooked up with a couple.
There are people who actively prefer smaller breasts. I've dated and/or hooked up with a couple.
Sure. I wasn't denying that some people might like smaller breasts. But whatever your preference, I don't think it can be pinned down to a specific cup size, e.g., "I like girls with C cups but D cups are too big", because those letters don't mean too much in isolation and everyone's wearing the wrong size most of the time anyway.
129: that makes sense to a large degree, I suppose. Since, beautiful = pretty + style, for most part.
130: of course, makes sense too. It's not accurate or fair to say everybody agrees X is the definition of ideal hotness. There's lots of variability. In fact, everybody has a different look that is judged, individually, as a whole. Lots of smaller breasted women can be very hot too. But, in the absence of considering other factors (face, legs, arms, sexual energy she exudes, etc.) larger breasts are probably hotter to more men, on average.
132: I could buy that too; thanks for the point of clarification.
larger breasts are probably hotter to more men
Having dated both ends of the spectrum and most points in between, I can honestly say breast size doesn't matter to me one bit, just so long as I gets to see 'em.
135 gets it exactly right.
Show us your tits, apostropher!!!
135 does indeed get it exactly right.
And I love Johnny Depp, I really do, but as Captain Jack? No one cares about bathing habits anymore, do they?
I thought for sure you'd have run out of exclamation points by now. Unless—you're poaching them from other commenters, you thief. *Victor Borge sounds*
Theuriau is very pretty, but not absurdly so. Padma Lakshmi is absurdly pretty. Being married to Salman Rushdie? Hott. He should really be throwing a douchebag hand sign, though.
You're all wet, apostropher. Lakshmi is quite beautiful, but not particularly pretty.
Bridgeplate, any exclamation points used by commenters other than M/ills are on loan from M/ills.
Theuriau is prettier than Lakshmi. How is this even a question? I don't really understand the distinction between pretty and beautiful, except that beautiful is much more rare.
I'll let you borrow some if you're nicer to me, SB.
Anyway, the extra exclamation points in 136 are to make up for the sad fact that there are no emoticons for douchebag handsigns.
Also: Prettiness/beauty/hottnes/etc. is in the eye of the beholeder.
Hmm, that is a pretty unflattering picture. But she's married to Salman Rushdie! That worth, like, 25 bonus pretty points right there.
I think she's suffering from Bleeth syndrome. Or whatever it's called.
I would further like to note that a significant proportion of what appear to be exclamation points in my posts are actually inverted unused i's from my signature line.
Theuriau is prettier than Lakshmi. How is this even a question?
Racist.
Okay, I've got to post this and another comment before apo gets his next one in, to keep the rhythm going . . .
Not surprisingly, her face doesn't look nearly that bad in these nude glamour shots.
the difference between pretty and beautiful is 99% a difference between average and expensive grooming.
Nonsense. As the links in 141 show, pretty generally requires at least a minimum of grooming. Beautiful, on the other hand, is less about surface appearance and more about, maybe, structure.
I'll withdraw the Kotto = hot thing, since y'all are so insistent on it. But I remain adamant that if not "hot," he is nonetheless sexy.
It's a legacy of Timbot's childhood Reaganism that he hates all brown people not named Dinesh D'Souza. But you know who's absurdly pretty and beautiful? Aishwarya Rai.
True story: my comment started with Aishwarya Rai, but she wasn't married to Rushdie.
153: "absurdly pretty" s/b "light-skinned"
Man that whole page you linked ogged is like the Grand Imperial Palace of HCWD.
Beautiful, on the other hand, is less about surface appearance and more about, maybe, structure
"Structure" is correct.
he hates all brown people not named Dinesh D'Souza
Ramesh Ponnuru?
Rossy de Palma: hot, beautiful, handsome, or pretty?
I find her fascinating-looking. I'd be inclined to call her strangely beautiful.
141: Wow. A couple of friends of mine are cousins of Lakshmi's. Looking at the picture in the second link, I can see the same underlying facial structure as they have, even though I wouldn't normally have said they looked like her. Neat.
I'd be inclined to call her strangely beautiful.
The coelacanth is "strangely beautiful." Rossy de Palma is "kinda funny-lookin'."
There are people who actively prefer smaller breasts. I've dated and/or hooked up with a couple.
Yeah! Small breasts on the right frame are good. One can't make generalizations about individual body parts. As Lichtenberg once observed, the whole wang must move—and be moved—together.
166: coelacanth is the name of my computer, no lie, both locally and through dyndns.
Isabelle Adjani. Who slides between preternaturally hot and 'kinda funny-looking' at different times.
Really really beautiful people are often right on the edge of sliding into 'kinda funny looking'.
There is nothing funny-looking about Isabella Adjani.
I dunno, Tim. The picture is from the shoulders up.
Rossy de Palma: freakish but expensively groomed.
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Rossy de Palma is the abandoned love-child of Pablo Picasso and Amadeo Modigliano.
And this is unattractive how, exactly?
To what comment are you addressing your question, B?
My guitar buddy's wife looks very much like Aishwarya Rai. We all say he won the arranged marriage jackpot.
178: Jeebus. If she really looks like Rai, I'm not sure "won the arranged marriage jackpot" really captures the relevant magnitude.
Isabelle Adjani is a good actress, too. I think Sophie Marceau is gorgeous, and sort of cast in the same mold as I.A., but she lacks some extra layer of grace, for being less talented. I.A. was amazing in The Story of Adèle H.
167 is true. However, all else being equal, slightly large breasts on a medium frame are the hotest. Although, there's plenty of small/petite women out there just as there's plenty of larger women just as there's plenty of taller/slender women who can all be very hot too.
I suppose breasts are analagous to muscles on guys. All else being equal women tend to prefer guys with above average muscle. But, it's not usually just how big they are, but how well defined and proportioned for the given guy's frame. That is, muscularity is probably more important than amount of muscle. But, I'm sure there's lots of individual women who prefer skinny guys just as there's lots of individual men who prefer smaller breasts, regardless of frame.
176 is responding to the comment immediately preceding it.
Argentina v. Mexico? Incredibly hott.
All else being equal women tend to prefer guys with above average muscle.
You believe this because why?
You believe this because why?
(searching for some studies now to support what I believe to be commonly assumed ... again, all else being equal)
Adjani is a good comparison, as is Marceau. I also like Irene Jacob
Anne Hathaway may be a step beyond pretty. If you see a pattern in my preferences, you're right. They all look like Mom.
I keep looking at Theuriau and thinking she just needs a little something, eyeliner or brighter lipstick or blue contacts. Or a less homogenized persona. The PTB intentionally bland out anchors, and I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't prettier in non-professional circumstances. But the vast majority of anchors and reporters give me this impression, and it might be simply the type that gets hired. Almost x, but not quite.
183, 186: DrB, wikipedia has an entry for Body type preferences (among Whites and African Americans) ... of course is very generalized, but it says "For men, a more muscular physique with wider shoulders and a waist to hip ratio of 0.9 is considered more attractive." and for "For women, fuller breasts and hips 1/3 wider than the waist, or a waist to hip ratio of 0.7, is considered the ideal."
Seems consistent with our culture. Whether these very general preferences are innate or learned, is not as clear.
I reject this sort of nonsensical pseudoscience out of hand.
Anne Hathaway has breasts! I'm sold! Well linked, McManus. I find her attractive despite myself. She looks a bit callow, but I'm a human male, and eyes like that work on creatures like me.
You remain on crack about Theuriau, however.
How about this for nonsensical pseudoscience: an article that claims that in a poll of 151 women, 32 reported having an orgasm while giving birth. While I have no firsthand knowledge of giving birth, I find that unlikely. Ow ow ow.
Maybe the baby kept moving in and out really quickly, at just the right angle.
Yeah, Anne Hathaway is totally hot. And Kate Beckinsale gives me a similar special feeling. But I'm afraid that, for me, nothing can ever top the young Audrey Hepburn. Jesus Pete, what an elegant beauty.
189: I think it's important to remember that there's much more to physical attraction that body type, it's but one variable, but how about this one? It says: "(Michael Cunningham (1990) found that women prefer men with moderately broad shoulders who are of medium height and have a chest slightly larger than average, but not as large and powerful as a traditional body builder’s chest.)"
I can kinda believe the orgasm thing. I mean, what is an orgasm if not powerful uterine contractions? Anyway, I can definitely say that post-childbirth orgasms are better.
I can believe that some sexual attention during labor would make it feel better. It makes period cramps better.
I think it's Susie Bright who says she used a vibrator during childbirth and found the experience quite enjoyable.
I can believe it would make it feel better, but not that much better. This is a good argument for reversing the trend of everyone in the extended family being in the room for the delivery, though. Unless your mother-in-law is the type to pitch in and help stimulate your nipples.
And this is unattractive how, exactly?
Who said anything about unattractive? Rossy de Palma is hott.
And this is unattractive how, exactly?
Are you saying I pwnd myself? Or is it just a reference to self-pollinating flowers? I need to know now so that, if the former, I can start making with the teo's mom jokes.
Anne Hathaway is attractive because she looks like a normal, gettable human being. Attractive, but not the French woman.
Oh crap. The second quote in my last post should be teofilo's "It happens."
Attractive, but not the French woman.
Do you refer to one of the French women named, or the mythical ungettable French woman?
Anne Hathaway may be a step beyond pretty. If you see a pattern in my preferences, you're right. They all look like Mom.
Your mom looks like that? What're her rates?
I thought grad students were always broke.
You know, the more I look at photos of young mlle.Theriau, the more her bon chic bon genre type of prettiness puts me off.
Argentina/Mexico extra time = bonus hottness.
Tia, there's something very ordinary about Clive Owen, though I will grant that there was something kind of appealing about his sleaziness in Closer - anyway, I am conducting further research.
I once sent my 7 year old daughter to the shop to buy a (men's) magazine because it had a picture of Jake Gyllenhaal on the front.
You know what was a good post? Megan's explanation of why women shouldn't ask out men.
Further evidence (1) that nice guys are irritating; (2) that Ogged likes to troll his own readers.
nice guys are irritating
Says the woman named Bitch.
Wait, what? I'm serious, I think she's on to something.
She's not entirely wrong, but the solution to the problem isn't "women shouldn't ask guys out." It's "guys need to grow some balls."
I didn't quite get the "added later" part.
Yeah, unconvincing. I don't know who these ridiculous men she knows are, but I'm quite sure that women are just as capable of behaving the same way. In fact, it occurs to me, I know women who've behaved that way.
What precisely do you think she's on to, ogged?
ac, I think that's a rephrasing of her 7:21pm comment.
Megan's wrong, though, in that whether or not the boy takes the step of calling/asking isn't actually a good signal of whether or not he's really interested. He might, for instance, just be picking up on signs that you'd like to ask him out and would but for the very reasons she adduces.
Tia gets it exactly right in 218.
She's not entirely wrong, but the solution to the problem isn't "women shouldn't ask guys out." It's "guys need to grow some balls."
Or "women should stop assuming that their vague messages are being received".
216- You, the woman, can't control whether the guy has balls or not. You can control your own actions. (At least theoretically.)
221, translated: I don't care if she says "yes" or not, I'm doing her a favor.
Megan's last comment AOTW: While I am excited for a wide diversity of opinion in the comments, I want to make it absolutely clear to everyone that From the Archives is very strongly pro-sodomy.
Ogged, you really need to get in touch with her. (Also, I think we now know why she ignored my exhortation to her to email you.)
Well, it's not an Iron Law, but don't you think that generally guys have a harder time saying "no" and breaking off relationships? Isn't this of a piece with the argument some of you have made in the past that it hurts more for a woman to be rejected by a man than vice-versa?
223: Asking someone out is a "vague message"? I think not.
Actually, 221, translated, would be more like "If, as hypothesized, a guy wouldn't turn down a date with someone in whom he's only marginally interested, he might well also propose a date with such a person, too."
Well, it's not an Iron Law, but don't you think that generally guys have a harder time saying "no" and breaking off relationships?
Who says, "No"? You just never call again.
Further evidence (1) that nice guys are irritating;
She's not entirely wrong, but the solution to the problem isn't "women shouldn't ask guys out." It's "guys need to grow some balls."
I don't think Megan is talking about (or only talking about) guys who are too nice or too ball-deprived to just say no.
But Tia's also right in 218. It isn't just guys who do this. It manifests in different ways, I think, but I haven't yet developed a full theory to account for how or why.
Come to think of it, I've behaved that way, and I went on a second date once, even though I didn't like the guy that much, because it was the end of long dry spell, I'd enjoyed the kissing on the previous one, and also I was getting bizarre pressure from my female coworkers (I'd met this guy through work) to give a nice boy a chance. Clementine has had whole relationships that were all about the guy liking her and her sort of going along with it. In fact, I was thinking of doing a post on Friday about that Monday guy, who I rejected definitively after the second time I saw him, but who made some stabs at getting me to reconsider, and how compelling it is sometimes that someone is interested in you (assuming you're drawn to them at all).
227--Wasn't that argument some version of "since guys are horny for anything that walks by, I must be especially unattractive since he rejects me"? If so, I'm hoping that most of us have grown out of that stage of puberty.
223: Asking someone out is a "vague message"? I think not.
No, I don't think that's what Cryptic Ned meant—read some of Megan's comments about subtlety (I mean, some of the commenters' comments).
You just never call again.
That's horrible, though I realize it's almost become the norm.
Yeah, I do think guys have a harder time saying no--I've never had a guy turn me down when I've asked him out, even if the subsequent date made it really clear that he wasn't interested. But that's what I mean by "grow some balls"--learn to say no.
I don't think it hurts women more to be rejected than it does men. If anything, I suspect that the constant encouragement men get to act like studs is all about covering up a collective male fear of being rejected.
It isn't just guys who do this. It manifests in different ways, I think, but I haven't yet developed a full theory to account for how or why.
Isn't the theory "a lot of people don't know how to say no graciously"?
But B, I think having balls is a big part of the reason many guys find it hard to say, "no".
That's horrible, though I realize it's almost become the norm.
It was a joke, and it's not anything like a norm. You prat. I've only done that once.
If anything, I suspect that the constant encouragement men get to act like studs is all about covering up a collective male fear of being rejected.
It's surprising how much of the world can be explained by male failings.
Oh, come now, Tim. It's much more condescending towards men to hypothesize that women shouldn't ask them out because they're incapable of saying no than it is to say, ask them out if you're interested, and if they're not interested, they should say no.
It isn't just guys who do this. It manifests in different ways, I think, but I haven't yet developed a full theory to account for how or why.
I don't think it's just guys at all. Don't we constantly hear about the woman who enters the relationship with the man, although she knows they aren't compatible, but she has faith in her ability to change him? And then he doesn't change, and she gets annoyed and breaks up with him, and he is frustrated. ("You're breaking up with me because I get drunk and tell stupid jokes? That's what I was like when we started going out, and you seemed to like me then.")
I think Megan is describing a similar situation, in which the man says "Well, she likes me, this is a rare opportunity. I think I'll probably get to like her after I get to know her better." And then he doesn't get to like her, and she gets frustrated. ("You're breaking up with me because of that? You knew I was like that when we started going out, and you seemed to like me then.")
It's all the same phenomenon of one person being satisfied with the relationship from beginning to end, and the other person not being satisfied at the beginning or at the end.
232: which is to say, it has required some willpower not to give in, and I don't think the battle is necessarily over, and if I did, I would be one of those women.
Aaaand, I've known a number of women who've done this sort of thing. One friend recently broke it off with a guy she was sort of casually dating and sleeping with because he suddenly felt that it was wrong to have sex with her without committing to her. She told me that she was totally fine with sex without commitment, but the moment he got some giant complex about it that interfered with the sex, he was no longer really worth her time. (Apparently, after telling him that, he tried to start it up again, but she was already vaguely insulted and irritated.)
All the examples I can think of from my experiences, or those of my friends, suggests not a gender divide, but simply that it's hard to let someone down gently, especially if there isn't a terribly obvious reason for breaking up.
241 is also compatible with 244.
Huh, I guess I'm convinced. I need to get out more.
Yeah, having someone obviously attracted to you can be a pretty powerful aphrodesiac, assuming they pass a certain basal threshhold of attractiveness to you.
The formal form of this problem is, of course, marriage.
A lot of people don't know how to create that kind of space, and say no even in non-romantic situations. It's hard even in everyday life to decide what you do and do not owe other people. And to not say yes to things you don't want, when you're just going to resent the other person for it.
247 gets it exactly right. The article's a little weird; it seems to postulate that everyone knows on the first date whether they're seriously interested in the person who asked them out, and if someone breaks up, there's a breach of contract or something going on. Whereas I think most first dates stem from 'Hmm, s/he seems hot. Why not?'
assuming they pass a certain basal threshhold of attractiveness to you.
i.e. more attractive than Rossy de Palma.
The interesting thing about Adèle H. is that in it, one of the most beautiful women in the world, a tender young Isabelle Adjani, get rejected.
Since this seems to be the thread to point to random web pages, I'll just note that this is quite thought-provoking.
That's too much to read, Ben. Here's something easier: Mythbusters is an awesome show. It doesn't hurt that the Mythbusters women are SO hot.
Ok Ben, I skimmed it, and I think I need to punch you for making me do that.
I don't think there's anything wrong with saying "yes" to a date with someone you're not completely in love with. I think it's kind of weird to keep dating someone if you're not really all that interested in them. Then again, it's also weird to keep asking someone who isn't all that interested out; most of the time, it's not that hard to tell.
Shorter link in 253: Girls are naturally moral creatures who would certainly mate with old pedophiles like me if only we would lower the age of consent.
Shorter 256: WTF?
Then again, it's also weird to keep asking someone who isn't all that interested out; most of the time, it's not that hard to tell.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it." - - - Upton Sinclair
This is also true when you replace "job" with "self-confidence".
Thus we return to the need for guys to "grow a pair" when rejected, which I guess is necessary but painful.
260: Then that supports my hypothesis that men are no less afraid of rejection than women, no?
I feel bad for guys, b/c they're "supposed" to always do the asking out, and I imagine that's quite unnerving. One of the reasons I'm such an ass about arguing that there's no excuse for women not to do the asking is because I actually like men (pace 239).
On the other hand, Ben, his anti-sodomy page is a work of genius.
1. Semen contains chemicals that could well be addictive.
Oh, and maybe two years ago or less, I was talking to an exboyfriend about post date signals, and he, shockingly, did not seem to realize there was still a convention that men should contact women, and said he sometimes hung back to see what the woman did.
Love this from his blog.
What exactly is the significance of female gracefulness? Gracefulness is significant, I have decided, because it encourages males to be more pure, i.e., more devoid of sordid thoughts.
So, is this guy a rapist waiting to happen, or just very deeply fucked up about that whole virgin/whore thing?
And is there a difference?
Stephen A. Meigs seems like he has severe Asperger's syndrome. He has a quite interesting way of hypothesizing why it is that those emotional and irrational humans behave the way they do. I don't think he's a scary pedophile; many of the great philosophers were probably people like him.
I like the idea (at least in a world with reasonable laws) of not having sex with a girl until her mother is so comfortable with it she can just nonchalantly walk right into the room her daughter and I are having sex in, and as she refills our water glasses or drops off a snack by our bed, feel really good about her decision as she looks at the clean benevolence of me while I am having sex with her daughter.
ogged has the answer! We're not manipulated by the patriarchy! We're addicts!
Y'all realize we're all now on some new government list, right?
B's just being snarky because she's addicted to semen.
Are we certain that there is no overlap between the sets "great philosophers" and "scary pedophile"?
Pretty certain. There's a fair amount of overlap between 'great philosopher' and 'dysfunctional attitudes towards women', but not so much with the wanting to have sex with the mom watching.
Are we certain that there is no overlap between the sets "great philosophers" and "scary pedophile"?
I guess there's nothing he can do about being a scary potential pedophile. But I don't think he'll ever act on those urges. I don't know if he has them.
Really, I just think he's wondering why it is that some people have sex with each other, and some people don't.
Ok, guys, you have to stop commenting about this lovely fellow here and do it at the new post supra.
I feel bad for guys, b/c they're "supposed" to always do the asking out, and I imagine that's quite unnerving.
Word.
Which is to say that I already feel sick enough as it is.
268! I was going to paste in that same paragraph. Gaah! Ogged, please punch Ben for me, too.
Stephen A. Meigs agrees with BPhD on the issue of how guys should learn to say no gracefully.
Fast candor is good in that it enables a female to know a male’s intentions before she has wasted much time upon him, just as it is good to scare girls sooner than later when there is not choice.
From "Etiquette and Fear".
She looked a little frightened that maybe I would get depressed and suicidal because any relationship between us would be essentially impossible. This made me smile because there is no way that would happen unless I had no experience whatsoever wrestling with problems, whereas I have more than enough such experience because indeed it is my nature not to ignore problems.
That's some A+ poetry.
oh man, I have to quote this "poetry" too,
The next two poems were written about a beautiful French (or Walloon or, less likely, Quebecois) girl I saw in the Amtrak Cafe Car of the Carolinian, Train 79, on 15Jul03 (15 juillet 2003). I guess I felt more serious than playful, but no matter, I keep thinking about her, so I must put these poems here. We stared at each other while in line. She looked at me as though I am much more heroic and clean than French men. She even looked perturbed like she just realized she lives in a screwed-up country and began to feel oppressed at the thought. At the same time, I was thinking how charming she was to be so relaxed and at ease with her own affectionate nature. It was obvious to me that though she never had ever fancied herself in love sufficiently to have strong physical feelings for a male, her past reticence wasn't because she was afraid of her sexuality but rather that she was sufficiently in tune with it to realize what is the truth, namely that girls have to be quite in love to actually want sex. Our each envying an aspect of the other's country gave each of us solace.
crap, self-pwned: the poems are down below. The passages still stand as disturbing.
......and there's another thread for this stuff. fuck.
Since this seems to be the thread to point to random web pages, I'll just note that
the other day I heard "Hollaback Girl" for the first time, and now I understand better how this happened.
Damn. That header for "Les Videos" featuring Theuriau really got my hopes up, but it turns out that she just sits at her desk and talks.
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