Go mysterious rosy-fingered Alameida!
Good to hear from you, and good to hear that everything's still going okay.
I love this line:
Having to listen to earnest talks about the 12 steps from stoned people is not the sort of thing to predispose you towards a philosophy.
Also the last sentence.
Best of luck!
I'm glad for you, Ala. Good luck.
Vanity is indeed a higher power. Glad you're feeling a bit better.
W00t! Good job.
(I was worried I wouldn't be able to cash that raincheck. Um, from someone else).
About 10 years ago, I accompanied a friend to AA a couple of times. I was sure that I would find it intolerable, but it really wasn't. I found the naked honesty of the whole thing captivating, although, granted, I had nothing personally at stake, so it was easy for me to feel that way. Of course, it did nothing for my friend, at least not for another 8 years or so. But I had a good time!
both of them smoke pot about 10 times per day
You say this like it's a bad thing.
"Have you ever looked at Step 7? I mean really, really looked at it?"
a) Yay!
b) Avoid any dinner in a place where 'toastmaster' is an occupation.
Good to hear it. Congratulations.
Next up, live-blogging the big pro wrestling match-up: Vanity vs. The Demon Gin, announced by Ecclesiastes. "Vanity of Vanities, all is Vanity! Folks, he's got Gin in a headlock and Gin is going nowhere but down -- but wait! Gin is forcing him back against the ropes, Vanity might be in trouble now! Yes! Gin threw him and Vanity's on the mat! And here comes Gin... Looks like Vanity recovered in time, he's up and there's the bell! Join us after these messages for round 2..."
BTW have you read Infinite Jest? I seem to remember digging the way AA was portrayed in that book.
The internet has always been a vast breeding ground for a particular breed of stupidity, but that post on Instapundit just took it to another level. Seeking a reason I paged up a bit on your blog... Which leaves only one question: were you drunk, high or some combination of the above when you made it?
Wow, Metsada, you're definitely lightyears ahead of Insty on the "Nasty, Nasty Little Pig" meter. Congratulations!
Metsada, how to put this, let's see...oh! I have it: Fuck you.
Didn't even read that the next troll was supposed to bring crêpes.
The secret's out. Only one person has ever posted or commented on this blog, including Metsada. Brilliant.
I don't think I'd eat crepes with Metsada.
We don't have to share the crêpes with the troll. It's more like an admission fee.
There are some things that are not worth even crepes.
You would probably end up with patriot pancakes or something, anyway.
Congrat Alameida.
AA isn't the cure all that its practitioners often claim it to be (and its certainly not the ONLY way to beat alcoholism), but it does work very well for at least some people. I have a friend who would likely be dead without them.
As someone earlier said, when your life's at stake - whatever works.
a) I agree with all but one other comment on this thread; b) the fruit basket links are starting to resemble that blonde joke.
(AOTW that thread, at least Down Under, is the last hit. Which is way, way cooler than being the first. Any schmoe can be the first hit by having a high page rank, but being the last takes skills.)
25b
Hah! you're just saying that 'cause I didn't...wait, starting to resemble?
You mean there really was a fruitbasket?
No, thank you. To be perfectly honest, I followed Matt's links until I saw the village smart-ass say "Fetch".
Realizing I had been had, yet again; I gathered the tattered remnants blah blah blah.
Alameida,
I'm sorry I can't do links but, you gave me this:
Strangely enough, he lived, all burnt up with lye, and all his hair fallen out. He hid under the trailer for a good long while, and only came out to be fed. Finally, bald, scarred, pink and fuzzy, he took to hiding behind the TV set, crooning to himself strangely during "The Price Is Right." They changed his name to "Skeeter", because "Lucky just didn't seem to suit him no more.
For that image alone, I owe you so much.
Just 'cause this is a short thread, and nobody really knows what to say (plus it got trolled); don't underestimate how much people care about you.
Delurking to wish Alameida the best.
That's funny. Fetch is the link to the fruit basket.
You just know I'm going to have to check, goddammit!
Don't think you're clever. I still fall for the "what's that on your shirt?" thing pretty regularly.
Don't think you're clever.
No, really. That's where the whole fruit basket tradition originated. I'm genuinely tickled that you got all the way to that very point and said, "Oh, fuck this."
Yeah,
God knows I was happier 15 minutes ago when I was just bitter and cynical.
Oh ick!
The only positive thing I have to say about my previous comment is: No comma splice!
At least I got that going for me.
Alameida.. so it's OK then for atheists? I've been thinking about it. Shit, I'm drunk now. But I simply can't just reverse polarity and again what good could be accomplished through a lie like that? Thanks for blogging this; food for thought. I've always hated AA, 'cuz it seems explicitly biased against those who don't
fit their standard. Like the rest of us just aren't worth the effort.
So 'f them, eh? But, hell, things aren't getting better.
Maybe I should let the actual addicts speak to this, but I know atheists who've gotten good stuff out of AA and CA, and one in particular even went to AA meetings though he felt like he could manage occasional light drinking. So I think you can go and get something out of it even if you don't buy into the entire thing
Shit, I'm drunk now.
It's kinda early in the morning, isn't it? I have an uncle who has been in AA for several years; he's now a very active sponsor, or whatever they call it. While I don't know whether he's an atheist per se (probably, but we've never discussed it specifically), he certainly isn't religious.
Well, it's either early in the morning or very late at night. 'Spose that's a matter of interpretation. But it was evening hours when I started, it's just dragged on a little long.
Nice to know, though, that it's not all necessarily that religious. Although, I live in TN, so I suspect you might up the evangelism factor a wee with respect to here.
You know, I used to be able to drink casually. Casually, I drank rather a lot. Now, I gotta deal with getting sick every time I stop. And I'm only in college now; can't imagine things improving later in life, if changes aren't made.
Thanks though.. I may check it out. I mean, this is really not how I envisioned my life, you know?
-d
Anything that has a system and involves groups of people is going to have stupid parts, right? But that doesn't mean that it won't help, on balance.
If you don't do AA, tim, your school almost certainly has services along those lines. Best of luck either way; you sound ready to get better.
Well, one thing I do have is luck. I never thought about the uni offering such services. But I suppose this is something which has occurred previously.
Thanks for the luck-wishes, ogged. It's funny as hell, I quit coke and everything else, but here you go, the one legal thing and you go all to hell. ;)
BTW, is anyone else jonesing so badly about the Deadwood tonight? And have you noticed all the right-wing blogs bitching about the "Shakespearean language?" Illiterate bastards.
By the by, Tim. Thanks for the comments here. (And Alameida too, for the rehab blogging.) It's hard sometimes to keep in mind that students who drink or miss class or whatever may actually have real problems with which one should empathize (since, after all, I've got the depression thing going on myself). It makes a difference to hear someone talk about this stuff.
I think the blog is now anti-cursed. Hooray! I haven't watched last week's Deadwood yet, so I have a lot to do before tonight.
Coincidentally, there's a very interesting article about addiction in the NYT Sunday Magazine today.
Glad you're feeling better Alameida! Also glad you're getting unhooked with a still happy liver, etc.. Yay for clean slates and new beginnings! I'm actually pretty religious and pro-higher power, but to me the potential for health damage is the biggest disincentive to try various drugs or drink a lot, and the biggest reason I get excited about friends getting sober. The world needs more happy livers!
Hey Bitch, it's cool to hear you say that. Some students *do* have a wee difficulty or another. You know, I've probably missed at least a third of the last year of lectures, but it would never have helped anyone if I *had* shown up those days. There are times when absenteeism equates with conscientiousness. And it's arguable that the lecture can be redundant (not so much in the humanities, perhaps, but I'm in CS; there's not much to be said that hasn't been said better, by betters)
Of course, most students *are* asses, but if they weren't, who would grow up to be Republicans? ;)
tim, good luck. I don't have any real experience with this but it sounds like you are ready to go get some help, and the next step is to do it. From all accounts you won't regret it. Ogged's 43 sounds right.
(Hoping the thread isn't closed to goofiness because of the serious stuff; the real origin of the fruit basket is here [comment 91, in case Safari is mucking it up, and links to the instructions for Safari-compatible links would be appreciated]. And the fruit basket is a genuine sign of affection. At least on my part. Apo is just a jerk.)
Hey, goofiness is my sole stock in trade. And #43 was just as likely a good idea, I just ain't always so kosher with good ideas.
Anyway, I'm just about an hour from the new Deadwood. Don't you think they owe this after the last season of Soprano's? It started off so well...
Here's a nasty joke: how do you get a dog to stop humping your leg?
okay. how do you get a dog to stop humping your leg?
[Late!]
It's funny as hell, I quit coke and everything else, but here you go, the one legal thing and you go all to hell. ;)
Not funny. At all. Especially
Casually, I drank rather a lot. Now, I gotta deal with getting sick every time I stop. And I'm only in college now; can't imagine things improving later in life, if changes aren't made.
You won't live til later in life. If you're getting sick when you stop [like DT's and shit], yer well on you're way to cirrhosis and brain damage.
So: Not. Funny. In fact, that kind of funny is known as a 'gallows laugh'. "Ha! Ha! I'm going to die! Ha! Ha!"
I never thought about the uni offering such services.
There's an AA meeting somewhere close by, quite possibly on campus, roughly 24-7. Cuz usually the uni's are in the same areas that the groups can meet in. There's very likely an R-E group nearby as well. And the campus people undoubtably have counselors although I kinda doubt they're equipped to fully handle your problem. But they can point you to somebody who can.
Alameida: But, what the hell, it works for a lot of people if they just keep going to AA meetings and listening to what people have to say. Certainly worth a shot when your whole life is at stake. It's startling how much better I look, by the way.
Sure. Congrats. 3 (or is it 4) days until you get yer one-week chip. One day until tomorrow.
max
['Keep on truckin'.']
Same person, changed name. I am hoping he doesn't mind my saying so, but I don't think he's trying to hide, just got tired of the other handle.
Re. AA, I know nothing about it and have no authority to speak of it, but I sometimes wonder if the problem joining the thing isn't kind of the same as the problem I had getting into therapy for a long time--the sense that some aspect of the thing (religion, the prying "and how do you feeeel technique) is stupid and beneath you. And if maybe part of the benefit of it might not be getting past the pride that's a big part of the defense/survival mechanism that's gone haywire and is now fucking you up.
Ash, or an impersonator?
Man, I gotta get that cable hookup finally.
Moi, yes. max == name on DL, used in public until 2001/usenet/whatever, and then dropped, due to sense of persona being expended. ash == substitute. Somewhat unsatisfactory. Substitute expended!
Neither name is on the birth certificate, of course, cuz I'm just weird like that.
:>
Re. AA, I know nothing about it and have no authority to speak of it, but I sometimes wonder if the problem joining the thing isn't kind of the same as the problem I had getting into therapy for a long time--the sense that some aspect of the thing (religion, the prying "and how do you feeeel technique) is stupid and beneath you.
Oh, yes, very much so. "Nobody and nothing can fix my problems. My problems are unique and special and incurable. Go away."
And if maybe part of the benefit of it might not be getting past the pride that's a big part of the defense/survival mechanism that's gone haywire and is now fucking you up.
I don't know if it's survival mechanism so much, as a status question. And we're off into a complicated debate over addiction (biochemical) versus parental training (psychological) versus um, natural reflex common to all people (biological).
I would say with tim there, that that laugh is a giveaway (especially given his probable age) that we're not talking just plain addiction but some parental expectation that tim should self-immoliate.
Of course, I'm drawing a gut read off a blog comment made a day or two ago by somebody I ne'er heard of before who may or may not be telling the whole story.
Before I wander off too far, there's no stigma associated with physical illness: "There's something wrong with your body". Whereas there is one with, well, brain issues: "There's something wrong with you." Like your brain isn't in your body, or maybe your body and your brain can part ways like the TNG enterprise. (Also overlooking that your brain isn't just housed in your head.) Perhaps it is a hangover from idea of a soul: if your brain is messed up your soul must be as well. So pride or shame would certainly have something to do with it.
On the other hand, to help erase the stigma people treat this stuff like it was a bad cold or something. Instead of a chronic, wasting, and often lethal disease.
max
['Grab the leeches Ma, Pop's havin' one of his moods.']
okay. how do you get a dog to stop humping your leg?
Here ya go, mcmc. Also.
Hey, that was when †ℵ was a soi-disant member of the lurketariat. And now she's been fully assimilated into the Borg! (The fruit basket, I believe, has already been delivered.)
B, 55 is so true. Although, in my case, it was knowing that we couldn't afford any help when I was in high school and college.
For me, it's not that I think that my problems are unique; it's that I realize tha other people have problems too, that they manage to get over them, and I ought to be able to too.
I had a really difficult childhood, but I'm not the only one, and I find peopel who dwell on their past can be really narcissistic and tiresome. I'm an adult; I should be over this by now. If I'm not, will I ever be?
47 -- Mark Kleiman takes that article apart.
50
Oh, I knew that. Actually, I thought it was pretty funny as a variant on the blonde joke.
My humble apology is posted back at your place.
I met Mark Kleiman in person! That's my only meeting a blogger story (well, and LB) (in response to question somewhere that I am too lazy to look up about meeting bloggers).
He was pretty cool.
This is a very slow comment morning. How am I going to procrastinate on this stupid-ass assignment I've been given if y'all don't rachet it up a coupla notches?
the prying "and how do you feeeel technique) is stupid and beneath you
I often wonder if the therapy mode can be made more aesthetically pleasing. Or if talking voluably, which seems to be required, is inherently displeasing.
60: Oh, I think that the special role of the child whose role is to take into account what "we" can afford and tailor his/her needs accordingly (I did it too) is one that involves a lot of getting over. I mean, for one thing, there are a lot of good things about that role--the sense of responsibility for one--along with the bad.
I really do think, in re. Max's comment about pride and such, that a lot of the fucked-up traits we have *are* things that were/are functional in other situations (e.g., childhood). Pride and stubbornness is life-saving when your parents are screwed up and you have to keep your shit together by yourself.
Anyway, lest Tim be too disheartened, I'm very close to someone who kicked some very bad habits even younger than Tim is now. Being as addiction (like so many other stigmatized illnesses) seems to have a lot to do with brain chemistry, it does end up being a lifelong "condition" one has to cope with/manage rather than one of those "yay, I'm cured!" situations. But it is manageable. (And don't overlook the possible effects of associated craziness like depression, for which at least there are effective meds nowadays.)
60: I think it's a matter of finding the right therapist. They need to have the right mixture of sincerity coupled with acknowledgement that the process is kind of awkward and weird. They also can't seem like their questions are coming off of a set of therapy flash-cards.
65: I actually found a therapist who I really liked and who didn't do that, after quite a bit of searching.
68- Didn't do that or didn't require that? I meant that you the patient are talking a lot.
I find that even trying to come up with a picture of what you feel is aesthetically disappointing, because hard or elusive to capture, and you find your own attempts to explain trite.
Boy, I highly suspect the ex boyfriend (the one I complained about last night) of having exactly the attitude B describes toward therapy. I really owe him an email, so I don't know precisely how he's doing now, but for years (years!) he's been various degrees of cripplingly depressed, and I exhort him to go and see someone, and the few times he manages to it always seems to resolve to "(s)he was just foolish and couldn't understand what I was talking about."
I have never been able to say much of anything to a therapist. I get into the session and I just clam up. And it's not like I don't want to talk -- when I'm not in the session I'm thinking all the time of things that I would like to say to an idealized therapist-figure. But they just never come out -- when i force myself to talk it is banal and not connected to stuff I am actually thinking about. Have not been able to break through/find a therapist who is able to break through.
I sort of have that attitude: I've thought about therapy a few times, and then thought that I didn't need it badly enough to make it worthwhile putting in the effort that would be necessary to find someone who I could tell stuff to who wouldn't annoy me unspeakably.
I actually went to a few sessions with a therapist last year, looking for help with organizational issues. The third time she told me to bring in whatever I was using as an appointment book so she could look at it, after I had told her that I remembered appointments, or didn't, or sometimes wrote them down on pieces of paper that I then lost but I had no appointment book or anything else serving the same function, I gave up. It was kind of defeating talking to someone who specialized in helping the disorganized, but who was unable, apparently, even to concieve of the possibility that someone could function at my level of organization.
Like I think ideally my therapist would be someone I really looked up to and admired, and/or had the hotts for -- no strike that, that would probably be more of a hindrance than a help -- when I am talking to my idealized therapist-figure, I usually come as a supplicant, and I cannot supplicate someone who is not worthy. Is supplication a necessary part of the patient-counsellor relationship? I want an oracle as my head-shrinker.
Ca, I think that if you think you need to supplicate to your therapist, the most productive path would be to tell your therapist that you think they're not worthy and you'd prefer an oracle, and give the therapist a chance to explore that with you.
(Good therapists, obviously, given enough time, can create space for defended clients to open up without the clients forcing themselves to do it. However, the client forcing themself to do it isn't going to hurt.)
I find that the whole therapist-listens-while-you-talk-for-an-hour model is incredibly aggravating to me. If I just wanted someone to listen to me complain about my problems, I'd talk to a friend. I have plenty of listening ears, just not someone that can provide the kind of insightful feedback that a trained professional can.
Time-before-last that I went to meet with someone at the ol' campus mental health services or whatever it's called, I informed the person doing the intake and assigning me that I wanted someone "feisty" and "with a personality." That worked out well.
See, I found the fact that you are paying the therapist important. You're not a supplicant; you're paying them to provide a service. For me, the money meant that I didn't have to worry about being nice to the therapist (as I would in a social situation) and therefore didn't have to downplay my feelings *or* not mention when I didn't like how she was doing things. But I can see how for someone else, it might overcome the supplicant feeling, or the "I have to talk" feeling. You're paying for the time. If you want to sit there in silence, that's your prerogative.
B. -- what's up with your commenters? No one wants to talk about sex?
Never mind, they've started commenting.
Ca, I think that if you think you need to supplicate to your therapist, the most productive path would be to tell your therapist that you think they're not worthy and you'd prefer an oracle, and give the therapist a chance to explore that with you.
Why would he want to do that? He already doesn't like the therapist.
I've had great success with a fairly traditional form of therapy. I had what I guess is called a breakdown, unable to complete assignments, walls closing in, torpor — a fairly extreme depression. I was on anti-depressants which mellowed me out but numbed me. My wife saw that they were having no worthwhile effect aside from "calming," didn't help the work any, and my libido was gone. So she convinced me to switch to a therapist and I went off the drugs. Steady improvement while still probably mostly just as before during the first year, but clearly getting better, and quite a bit stronger to face things. All this time building a relationship with this guy, learning to speak more generally, using ideas, history, literature, music, and especially the history of psychology. He often supplied ideas, examples, metaphors. I always do most of the talking, but he's very incisive, a good critic and good at dialogue.
My father died last December. Within a few days I noticed a change starting to come over me. More and more, I was literally not depressed. I was much more assertive socially, but also more receptive, listening more. I was not overweight, but I began to lose some weight easily, and ride my bike nearly every day. Things that have been difficult for many years became more-and-more easy. Because of the relationship with my therapist, I've been able to interpret and explore and build on what might otherwise have been baffling. We've used all sorts of ways of talking about it, all helpful. The therapy did not cause the change, but I am certain put me in a postion to make the most of it. I feel reawakened, almost reborn, sloughing off encrusted fears and habits of decades.
80: because often the reason you don't like your therapist has to do with your fantasies about and transferrence onto the therapist, and those issues are often some of the most illuminating things to explore. Here's where I commented about this before. There are often real reasons to dislike your therapist. My friend recently went to a therapist who asked her three times if she'd been sexually abused, even though she got an unequivocal no each time. That's a reason to leave a therapist. But often I think people give slightly too much credence to their own sense of dissatisfaction, when they'd be better served by exploring their sense of dissatisfaction in therapy. I was sitting around complaining about the bummer thing to a friend who was a patient of the same therapist, and it was my friend who gave me the excellent advice to talk to him about it. If he'd never given me that advice, I might still be complaining that he was a bad therapist who didn't know how to treat my problems with sufficient gravity, when in fact, he was a great therapist, who, when I brought up something that bothered me, related it brilliantly to the rest of my emotional life.
My experience with therapy was pretty much bad all the way around. First, a therapy model that is basically meds & talk, which is great since so many undergrads just want the meds, but when you don't want the meds, you're left with the talk, which is pretty much young, female, simpering social workers.
I was in this weird position where I was certain they were highly trained but that I couldn't shake the feeling that I was much, much smarter than they were, and hell, if I couldn't figure out my problems what was Miss Simpering Lightweight going to do. And getting transferred to another therapist requires another 4-6 weeks of waiting with no therapy. (The six week wait to get scheduled in the first place was another problem. If you're not likely to kill yourself and have your parents sue the uni, they don't seem to care too much.) I probably should have pushed for someone older and grumpier.
In the end, I got my shit together since the one thing I noticed was that I was happier on therapy days because it meant my days had some structure.
I couldn't shake the feeling that I was much, much smarter than they were
Yeah, this gets it exactly right.
I don't want to talk about sex, but I do want to say I'm happy for alameida.
That's about the most irritating thing about therapy: Words, just words and I ain't so bad with those. Better than most, and almost certainly better than the therapist.
It's likely asinine to even be concerned. I have the bipolar thing, so, realistically, this ain't so bad, really. You can read tales of people *way* worse.
When I went to talk to a therapist during grad school, I ended up with an incredibly handsome black man who wanted nothing more than to look deeply into my eyes and ask me questions about myself for an hour. Therapy was freakin' great.
87: Yeah, but could you take him?
80 is correct. Having said that, though, if you're not comfortable, you're not comfortable, and I really do think it's the therapist's job to try to make sure they're creating a dynamic where you can cope.
What I loved about the good therapist I eventually found (and this was, to be fair, partly my doing) is that I called her, said specifically what I was looking for (a feminist therapist, someone who did cognitive-behavioral therapy, I was not interested in medications), and then she called back and before setting up the appointment, spent about fifteen-twenty minutes on the phone describing her qualifications, and approach, asking specifically about my goals for therapy, checking to see if I had any questions, etc., before finally saying "so, do you think we should set up an appointment? Do I sound like a therapist you can work with?" So respectful and professional.
I'm surprised they don't all do that, but I know they don't.
What I think would be really useful to me (and I've thought this for a long time without really making any steps towards realizing it) would be a professional mentor. I felt super-jealous when I was talking to my little sister about her summer associateship and she said how she has lunch frequently with her mentor -- I never in my life had such a relationship and it seems like it could be a great thing. How do I bring that about? Are there therapisty people who perform a career-mentorship function?
88: 'Course. Can we just make that the default assumption, and I'll promise to mention the rare times when I have an interaction with someone I couldn't take?
Not to try to hog all the B-approval glory, but I wonder, given the structure of her comment, if she didn't mean that 82 was correct.
92 -- actually I'm pretty sure she was referring to 72/74.
Has anyone ever tried do it yourself cognitive therapy? The idea appeals to my scientific sensibilities. . .I like an algorithm to follow. . .but it's also difficult to find anything on it. I ordered a book called, "Mind over Mood," recently, and am waiting to see how that works. But I'm also a little skeptical. I used to think I was a depressive, but now I think that at that point I was just actually depressed for tangible as opposed to innate reasons. Now, for example, my life is even more stressful and in some sense crummier than that time, but I'm much less lonely and indoor bound, and I have a notion of a positive future, so I'm actually usually in a good mood. But the other problems--sleeping issues, constant low energy, and complete inability to concentrate--are there just as strong as ever. Which makes me think that my real problem is some kind of ADD. I've never heard of cognitive therapy helping with that, however, especially for adults. Any good experiences?
Can we just make that the default assumption, and I'll promise to mention the rare times when I have an interaction with someone I couldn't take?
Consider it done.
I've tried do-it-yourself electroconvulsive therapy. Didn't much care for it.
Yes apo, but how did it make you feeeeel?
I used to think I was a depressive, but now I think that at that point I was just actually depressed for tangible as opposed to innate reasons.
That's almost exactly what I realized about myself a while ago--what was diagnosed as depression when I was in high school was really just a rather rational reaction to being massively scattered and disorganized, and the effects thereof. When I wasn't terribly behind on everything, I was quite happy. So I figured, best to treat the cause (ADD) rather than the symptom (depression).
I've heard of some non-medication treatments for ADD, they mostly involve getting things structured in your life so they're easier to deal with. Not sure how well it works, though.
As for the do-it-yourself cognitive therapy, about that Freud said: "In self-analysis the danger of incompleteness is particularly great. One is too soon satisfied with a partial explanation, behind which resistance may easily be keeping back something that is more important perhaps", which makes sense.
I don't think CBT is supposed to be particularly complete or explanatory, though, so maybe it wouldn't matter for that. Do it yourself insight oriented therapy would suck.
Yes apo, but how did it make you feeeeel?
Like somebody had tasered my urethra.
Oh wait, taser != phaser.
*sigh*
I'll NEVER make a good geek.
I think "do it yourself" therapy is a rationalization for "therapy is for weak people," in all honesty. Although I suppose it might also be poverty. Anyway, it's way too easy to just go in circles when there isn't someone there to short-circuit that bullshit.
90: My therapist-who-I-loved sorta kinda did that for me--at least, she had a Ph.D. and most of my issues at that time had to do with finishing mine, job market crap, etc. And she was a really good perrson to bounce that stuff off of, because she'd been through some of it herself and would share her thoughts. The obvious problem with the therapist-as-career-mentor thing is that it doesn't help with networking or introductions or the other things mentors are supposed to do. But I did use my therapist for things like helping me set and keep deadlines, prioritizing goals, coming up with strategies to get work done, and stuff like that. And she was very helpful with that kind of thing.
101: Check out google's "Did you mean:" suggestion!
I'm scared to click it.
I've been an on old West Wing re-watching and correspondingly quoting spree lately, but I think there's a West Wing quote relevant to this theapy discussion. Quotation may be nonsense out of context:
JOSH [White House Deputy Chief-of-Staff]
I know that I-I'm givin' you cocky answers, I that should be...
STANLEY [Psychologist from the (made-up) American Trauma Victims Association]
Listen...
JOSH
I know that you want me to talk about my feelings.
STANLEY
No I don't, Josh. The last thing I want you to do is talk about your feelings. I think
if you heard a tape recording of this day, you wouldn't hear the word ‘feelings.' What
we need to be able to get you to do is to remember the shooting without reliving it. And you have been reliving it.
That very last bit is just a plot point, but I thought the point made on the show about misconceptions of therapy as talking about feelings generally rather than dealing with particular problems and/or figuring out what those problems are and then dealing with them was a good one.
Actually, w/d, it sounds like that therapist was doing CBT, so it's not a matter of misconceptions of therapy, it's that there is more than one model. Personally, I'd never want an exclusively CBT therapist, and I don't want to be one.
109: I had pretty much no basis at all for the part of 108 after the quote. I just wanted to say something about why I thought the quote might be relevant. But I appreciate the correction.
Isn't this also a new strain in current thinking about trauma, particularly? That Israeli psychologists observed that bombing victims seemed to do better when they just tried to forget?
(Vaguely recalling some NYT magazine article from a few years ago.)
This article reminded me of this thread a little (well, at least with my own comment in 76).
It's really sad that 75 percent of people have two or fewer close confidants.
Forgot to include a link to the relevant teleplay.
It was the one on repression, by Lauren Slater, was it not, ac? I'll try to find it. Slater was later exposed as a big fat liar after Opening Skinner's Box came out, though of course that doesn't mean the repression article wasn't good or that she misrepresented the studies she talked about. I think the fictional therapy in that scene is not supposed to make Josh forget, but to try to use some kind of controlled exposure to the memory to make him not have emotional flashbacks. CBT is really good for PTSD and phobias and anxiety, as I understand it. I'm not trying to diss it.
But now that I think about it, IIRC most of the lies in Slater's book were in the direction of portraying therapists as destructive, which maybe means her repression article could use some retrospective critical evaluation.
Yes, the one about repression. Cannot vouch for its validity, just recalled the specific trauma aspect.
God, the second season of that show kicked ass.
I haven't done anything crazy like grade every episode of the second and third season, take measures of central tendency for the two sets of grades, and compare them. But I think seasons 2 and 3 kick pretty equal amounts of ass.
For me, it's not that I think that my problems are unique; it's that I realize that other people have problems too, that they manage to get over them, and I ought to be able to too. gets it exactly right.
Growing up in my house it was common knowledge that every male on my dad's side of the family is/was an alcoholic. That's going back as far as anyone ever talks about. This has manifested in my generation with my siblings and myself (men and women) resorting to joking about how we're all German/Irish alcoholics. No big deal. It's in our blood, all of the [surname]'s are drunks. At least we're functional.
Sure, we all know alcoholism kills, and we know when we get the shakes—that's a bad thing. But we persevere! We are [surname]! We can drink with the best of them.
What's more, if we can't—if there are problems—they are our problems. We are grown ups and we have made our own decisions and are responsible for our own actions. These actions all have consequences, and we are responsible for dealing with them as they come. Or, preferably, responsible for knowing what (most of) those consequences will be before we comit to a decision.
Addictions are results of decisions we conciously made and if we didn't consider that possible outcome, well, now we'll just have to figure out how to get ourselves out of it. Everyone has problems, he's got problems, she's got problems, I've got my own problems, you go deal with yours.
I think "do it yourself" therapy is a rationalization for "therapy is for weak people," in all honesty. Although I suppose it might also be poverty.
That's unfair. Most mental health plans suck, and many people without insurance or self-insured are in the unhappy position of not wanting to be 'documented' as having a mental problem since that just makes it harder to get insurance as a reasonable rate. Pre-existing condition, you see.
And re: 82. I'm not quite getting it. What's wrong with switching therapists as opposed to discussing your issues about your new therapist with your new therapist? Because this sounds like a great pyramid scheme, to be honest; first you go in for therapy for issue X, then you don't like the therapist's style so now that's an issue Y, which surprise, you get to pay for to resolve with more therapy.
w/d, the Christmas episode you quoted from is my absolute favorite of the whole series. I'm tempted to go through the all dvd's again, but that would be like a solid week of viewing. Maybe just one or two episodes wouldn't hurt...
And Leo McGarry was my Hero. (Before Apostropher became Teh Hero.)
Tying in to that same episode (or at least the same series of events.) This from The West Wing almost always makes me want to cry.
This guy's walking down the street when he falls in a hole. The walls are so steep he can't get out. A doctor passes by, and the guy shouts up, "Hey, you, can you help me out?" The doctor writes a prescription, throws it down in the hole and moves on. Then a priest comes along, and the guy shouts up, "Father, I'm down in this hole. Can you help me out?" The priest writes a prayer, throws it down in the hole and moves on. Then a friend walks by. "Hey, Joe, it's me. Can you help me Out" And the friend jumps in the hole. Our guy says, "Are you nuts? Now we're both down here." The friend says, "Yeah, but I've been down here before - and I know the way out."
121: I just mean I don't think that the do it yourself plan works. And so, unless there's some good external reason (money, insurance) that you really can't afford therapy, and you can't find someone decent who will do it on a sliding scale, that trying to go the do it yourself route is a bad idea. It might be better than nothing, but in a lot of ways I think it can even be worse--it's easy to come up with rationalizations and blocks when you're thinking about your own shit without having someone around to provide some perspective.
RE: my 120, this is not an endoresment of the attitude, merely a sample of what we grew up with.
Ah, macho rationalizing drunks I call family... how I do love you.
122: I am going through all of season two and three again. I have Season one on DVD, but don't feel like I need to watch that. I don't have the later ones (seen them though). Depending on my mood when I finish three, I might buy four.
123: That's later in the same episode. Josh references the story in a touching manner in "Bartlet for America" when Leo is going to have to testify before Congress and have his alcoholic relapse come up in questioning.
What's wrong with switching therapists as opposed to discussing your issues about your new therapist with your new therapist? Because this sounds like a great pyramid scheme, to be honest; first you go in for therapy for issue X, then you don't like the therapist's style so now that's an issue Y, which surprise, you get to pay for to resolve with more therapy.
There's no hard and fast rule one way or the other. Some therapists are bad, certainly. Some therapists will have styles that work better for you than others. It's not that you can't ever switch therapists, but depending on the nature of your problem with your therapist you might get something really good out of looking into what it is. Some people's complaints about their therapists are manifestations of their defenses. I am positive of this in the ex-boyfriend's case, because I know about him and his need to believe he is special and incomprehensible. And it's not like every new issue gets an amount of time allotted to it that you pay more money for. Your relationship with the therapist is not a separate issue that needs resolving. Rather, your relationship with the therapist, if examined, will cast light on the other things you came to therapy about and help you understand more about them. For example, I'm nearly sure Ca's desire for an oracle therapist is not just some casual preference, but a manifestation of a psychological need on his part that would be great to discuss in therapy. When I finally told Bill the therapist about how I hated how he said "bummer," he asked me why, and I told him it felt empty and shallow, and he asked me if I felt like I was giving him a lot and wasn't getting anything back, and I was like, fuck, yes that's how I feel. And this related back to every single thing I was going through at that time, and I know it sounds banal, but in context it was really powerful, because it helped me reexamine all my motivations for things I'd done in the last few months, including some situations in which I'd been mostly right, but partly full of shit, and when one particular person came to me to concede he'd been full of shit, I was able to respond to him generously and say, hey, I was somewhat full of shit, too. It was great for our relationship, I'll tell you. Very healing.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the patient explanation.
w/d, I should steal your DVDs. Season two finale: pinnacle.
You should steal Matt F's, he appears to have more of them and not be using them right now. But you can steal mine as a backup plan. I completely agree about the season two finale. I'm an especially big fan (not for reasons of being anti-religion) of the part where the President of the United States tells God to burn in hell (I think literally hang on the cross) in un-subtitled latin.
Also, I remember SB being a West Wing fan and would be interested in hearing from SB.
Literally something like 'the cross take you.' It doesn't translate well, but 'to hell with that. And to hell with YOU!' pretty much sums it up.
Oh, I love that scene. Martin Sheen does some good wrath. I have seasons 1-4 on DVD; I stopped watching after Aaron Sorkin left, so those are the only ones I got. Season 4 is definately worth it, I enjoyed it as much as 3.
It was amazing how fast the show changed after Sorkin left -- I went from being a huge fan to finding it unwatchable instantly.
Season Five is, not to engage in hyperbole, mostly a heinous backwater which I choose not to think of. But 6 and 7 both have good, though not Sorkin-quality, episodes. For instance "Impact Winter," dealing with the disease effects of the MS (as opposed to the physical effects) actually getting in the way of Bartlet's presidency.
Yeah, I watched the first few episodes of Season 5 after he left, but they were so terrible that I stopped. Apparently it got better after a while, but I had gotten out of the habit of watching by that point. I am, however, rather excited for Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip.
Season Five is pretty weak. Both it and Season 6 (what I've seen at least) fall prey to forgetting how the characters are supposed to talk and trying to solve Every World Crisis so Bartlet can get an A at being president.
"The Supremes" is pretty good out of S5.
I liked first season a lot. During college it was really popular, and it would spread like wildfire through the dorms... "Martin Sheen's going to say Michigan sucks! And C.J.'s going to sing the fight song!"
Also, I remember SB being a West Wing fan and would be interested in hearing from SB.
I saw, or rather remember seeing, none of season 1, most of 2-3 and 6-7, and a smattering of 4-5. I think my opinions on season quality line up with the others here.
Season 2 (with a notable exception, on which more later) kicked my ass all over the room. I didn't watch those episodes so much as live through them—it's fantastic television that turns characters walking and talking into viewers tensing and squirming. This viewer, at least. Thank god it didn't last more than an hour.
The exception to all that was the season 2 finale, whose presidential apostrophe I pretty much hated. I know Bartlett likes to show off, but really, even when there's nobody in-story to impress but the God he's denouncing? The scene doesn't make any sense without assuming the existence of a television audience. Its construction as a set-piece, the craft of his impossibly spontaneous oration, these things made it ring utterly false to me. In short, he was a highbrow Darth Vader screaming "Noooooooo!", and Mrs. Landingham deserved better.
By contrast, I am sentiment's perpetual juicy prey. The "Bartlett for America" napkin had me in tears, and this, I thought, was right and proper.
I bet you complain when Othello dies than no one gives such speechifyin' while bleeding out. (Though when I watched it at home with my parents, my dad said, "Wow. Martin Sheen goes for the Emmy.")
(And then my mom said "I don't get it. Is he going to run?" MOMMMMM!!)
SET PIECES WIN WORLD CUPS. And the napkin was lame.
That is all. Cruciatus in crucem.
(Also, Danny Concannon should have been in more episodes.)
I bet you complain when Othello dies than no one gives such speechifyin' while bleeding out.
Come on, television isn't the stage, and when I signed The West Wing's suspension-of-disbelief contract, it didn't cover anything resembling shaking one's fist at God and calling him a "feckless thug".
Uh, I may have misread you. I'm not exactly sure what "than no one" is supposed to be doing there.
Darth Vader screaming "Noooooooo!"
When that happened, I had the awful sensation of thinking something that was already pretty rotten had got hopeless. Fortunately I waited for cable.
Oh, right, "than" s/b "that". Stet 139.
And, I found latter-day Danny consistently annoying. It would be funny if we turned out to like completely disjoint sets of West-Wingiana.
When that happened, I had the awful sensation of thinking something that was already pretty rotten had got hopeless. Fortunately I waited for cable.
Referring here to Darth Jed or Darth Vader?
if we turned out to like completely disjoint sets
I gave up after Sorkin left, too. But not completely disjoint sets. Less scenery-chewing, more His Girl Friday would have made it even better. Season 2 was the tops.
Ever seen Sports Night?
Darth Jed or Darth Vader?
DV. Darth Jed I was always of two minds about. I actually like Martin Sheen, and he made nice work of some of the lines he got. I was a sucker for the time he chewed out some right-winger over who knew the Bible better, e.g. But whenever he started to get that Clintonesque speechifying thing going, I wanted to turn it off. Then again, I never liked Clinton's Clintonesque speechifying, either.
Whoops, "disjoint sets" was to Cala.
"disjoint sets" was to Cala.
I knew that, I was just butting in.
If it weren't for these conversational hiccups, we'd just go back and forth agreeing with varying degrees of emphasis.
I really liked Sports Night. Sorkin always walks right up to the edge of irritating me--and Sports Night definitely did that--but the show, particularly during the first season, was excellent. (Though still dwarfed by News Radio, which may be the most under-appreciated TV show of all time.)
I appreciate News Radio. Should I appreciate it more?
As in almost all things, I agree with SCMT. Sports Night was awesome; otoh although when there was no more of it I was sad, I couldn't imagine what more of it there could be that wouldn't annoy me.
News Radio---who doesn't appreciate News Radio? So many different things to love. But unless you have some special insights, I'm going to assume you mean Phil Hartman-era News Radio.
Of course Phil Hartman-era News Radio. I live my life for the moments when I can say, "That hurt me deep down inside, where I'm soft, like a woman." That little scene maybe my favorite piece of television.
Phil Hartman, under-appreciated genius.
Phil Hartman, under-appreciated genius.
A moment of silence, please, while we appreciate Phil.
The only post-Phil Hartman Newsradio episode that sticks in my mind as very good was the one where Matthew becames a British-accented punk.
becames: tv present verb tense of "become"
tv present verb tense: used when referring to something that changes during a tv show episode that changes back to its original state by the end of that same episode
That strikes me as a very useful neologism. Well done, sir.
What are you guys talking about? Phil Hartman is my neighbor. Also, I probably miss him more for Lionel Hutz and Troy McClure.
SB, if you're not ok with "The Two Cathedrals" scene as a Shakespearean soliloquy (which is how I look at it, and, "What was Josh Lyman? A warning shot? That was my son. What did I ever do to yours but praise his glory and praise his name?') why not read it as what Bartlet is thinking while he smokes a cigarette in the National Cathedral. It would be analogous to his oval office conversation with Ms. Langingham later in the episode.
So what's the tv past tense?
E.g. "I was quite surprised when Maude Flanders didn't _____ dead, but actually became dead. But I hear it was a salary dispute."
"Don't let the name fool you; it's not really a floor."
So what's the tv past tense?
I don't know. I'll just have to wait until I make another typo haven't thought it through yet.
Come on, television isn't the stage, and when I signed The West Wing's suspension-of-disbelief contract, it didn't cover anything resembling shaking one's fist at God and calling him a "feckless thug".
I like Deadwood.
I don't know from Deadwood, but if I guess right, you have correctly suggested that dramatic conventions vary among TV shows. Yay.
I hope you're just antagonizing me for fun, because this isn't hard. "Television isn't the stage" observes that our default expectations of a play and a TV show differ; and "TWW's SoB contract", that TWW's established bag of tricks is essentially that of its genre (TV-realistic didactic suspense). You can add tricks to the bag post hoc, but it's takes care, and certainly one-off soliloquies read less like an expansion of the show's charter and more like "going for the Emmy".
I hope you're just antagonizing me for fun, because this isn't hard.
This comment partakes of the true spirit of Ogged, except that what follows is correct (in theory, since I've never seen TWW).
I intend that in a way entirely complimentary to Ogged of course. Please don't get stomach cancer back just because I was mean to you.
I've never seen TWW
The very last episode is the only one I have seen.
The only other AOTW googlable instance of "didactic suspense" lurks down in footnote 24 of this essay:
This full-length 35 mm color film by Doo Kwang Gee [«La dialectique peut-elle casser des briques»] is a transformation by Gerard Cohen and René Viénet of a classic Hong Kong Kung-fu film (originally titled «The Crush») into a didactic suspense narrative illustrating the conflict between the proletariat and the bureaucrats! […] As it is (curiously) part of the permanent collection of the ultra-hightech Vidéothèque de Paris, it can be screened upon demand.
Correct in theory = not analytically false?
I totally had SB's back until she pulled this 'Crouching Dragon Hidden Tiger' bullshit.
until she pulled this
You're assuming a lot there, Miss Emily.
'Crouching Dragon Hidden Tiger' bullshit.
Which bullshit is that? It's so hard to keep track.
You're assuming a lot there, Miss Emily.
Not necessarily. I'm on record as asking people to use whatever pronoun they like.
eesch!
I didn't mean to sound that snotty.
Seriously, though, I agreed with everything you said about The West Wing--that particular scene, Mr. Sheen's embarassing over-reach, the lifetime achievement awards in his future... all that.
Then, all of a sudden, you were snatched up by an invisible wire and we got...WTF?
I understand the fact that I'm not the smartest person in the room. I just think that even the untermenschen should be treated to better transitions.
ATM
Oh, you mean 168? I was curious as to how commonly "didactic suspense" occurred in the wild, so I googled it. The footnote amused me, so I posted it that others might be amused in turn.
Then, all of a sudden, you were snatched up by an invisible wire and we got...WTF?
I like your description of what happened. I should warn you that it applies to about 80% of my schtick here.
I should warn you that it applies to about 80% of my schtick here.
Fair enough, I'll stop whining and shut-up now.
I really didn't mean any harm, SB.
And I'll shut-up except to point out that 155,156 & 162:
bear witness to the birth of the best new word I've heard in years.
SB, one could argue since that WW's dialogue is mostly fast chatter (odd, everyone on the president's staff and everyone they run into has the same sense of humor! even Ainsley and she's a REPUBLICAN) and everyone is prone to occasional flashes of bombastic temper (pretty much once an episode for Toby), and that Bartlet tends toward solliloquy anyway (and probably not just to show off), that there's already a slightly different TV drama contract with the audience that allows for a grandiose speech.
But I won't. It's best seen as a very pissed-off prayer (and even the Latin fits -- most of it is related to liturgical phrases -- it's sort of throwing a lot of the Mass back in God's face) and that episodes spends a fair amount of time in Bartlet's head, anyway. I'll grant you 'feckless thug', but I always thought it was just because you can't say 'fucking' on the networks.
Danny is badly used in later seasons, but he's great in season 1.
Hm, the "pissed-off prayer" explanation makes sense, I hadn't thought of it like that. OK, I"m defiantely re-watching that episode tonight.
Also, the air conditioning is off for a second day in a row at my office, because of the storms. I'm going to start wanting to kill people in a few hours when it gets really hot.
And, I should point out, the cathedral scene isn't the main reason I like the episode.
There's no air conditioning here, but at least the windows open.
The air conditioning here is on full-blast, spreading vigorously the evil mold-ish particles that make my sinuses want to explode. Ack!
SB's clearly right--the bit in the church sucked. But Sorkin has strong tendencies towards overwriting, and that's part of the contract, too. You accept the rough with the smooth. Yes, sometimes you feel dirty afterwords. But you keep going back, don't you?
On bad therapists: I went to a support group meeting a few weeks ago, and there was a guy there wuth anixety who was complaining about his mental health counselor at a local clinic. No matter what he said, the counselor wold just say, "Oy." Thinking of you, Tia, I asked him whether he had tried discussing this with the therapist. He had, and all that the guy had said in response was, "Oy." So, we all laughed, and I said, "Ok, maybe you should switch to a new therapist/clinic."
On the issues of paying that B mentioned: I'm not paying right now (slifing scale of 0), and it's weirdly freeing, since one of my issues is figuring out how to accept help from other people. It's also the case that I would probably be unwilling to go every week, if I were paying, and there's a lot of stuff that I need help with.
Previouslu I had looked for a really good psychopharm guy, and I had ca;;ed around asking different doctors about what they did to keep up with research. I knew that I'd found the right guy when he told me that he spent every Friday at the medical school library. He mentioned that he specialized in treating bipolar patients, and I mentioned that that's what I thought I had--symptoms of hypomania and a strong family history. He kind of chuckled and said, "You want your doctor to know more than you do, and I think that's entirely reasonable" He also said that his inital evaluations were 3 hours (he only charged $270 for that, even though his regular 30 minute slot was $85, and I knew that I could trust him. He referred me to a very good social worker for therapy. I do't think that I was entirely ready to be honest about everything then, but she was mostly really helpful. Before I wanted someone to take my chemical issues seriously, because my Mom had been so messed up (the family history part); now, I'm able to talk about how my Mom's being messed up affected me.
My current experience is kind of old-school, because I'm actually seeing a psychiatrist for therapy. I think that this model has real merit, because I don't have to worry about coordinating their communication He's learning too, and that's okay right now. At first he was a little defensive when [I'd call him on things or say "what about this research?" (there's definitely a trust issue--trusting in the competence of the professional--forme, but I also have an intellectual interest in these things and want to be a collaborator with my doctor. I don't think that the old model where teh doctor always knows best and just tells you what drugs to take really works all that well.] Now, he's much better about saying, I'll ask someone about X. I trust people who are willing to admit that they don't knwo somethign a lot more than those who feel a need to puff themselves up a bit.
On campus mental health: It's either "refer you out on your parents' insurance" or "downplay your symptoms." One of the saddest aspects of teh Harvard murder/.suicide in 1995 was that the girl had sought treatment at the University Health Services, but that they were incompetent. They had never done a medical evaluation, and the therapist she saw was a complete moron. The funny thing was that he had written a book about recognizing signs of real danger in adolescents, but the letters she wrote him about crawling into her own shell and feeling that he was her only hope and that she needed to see him more often never prompted him to act aggressively. He had a Masters in Education. The book describing this, Halfway Heaven by Melanie Thurnstrom, makes me hate Harvard every time I read it. If I had big bucks to give to a university, I'd give it for mental health services.
Yeah, for people that are willing and able to read biology textbooks and journals to figure out, in detail, what the hell is going wrong with them and how the best way is to fix it, finding good care becomes a little more complicated.