But how can we believe anything you say know that we know about this inscrutability?
I've heard that Cretans are all ritually polite, as well.
I dunno. I'm really worried about letting Iranians immigrate, because they might bring their cultural values of lying and insincerity here and change us forever.
Okay, sorry, couldn't help it. I'm glad you blogged that article, b/c I read it and thought, saying to people "oh, you should come over for dinner sometime" and not actually ever having them over is a uniquely Iranian thing? Huh.
Unfuckingbelievable. That was really egregious.
And the whole thing could have been cribbed from that racist piece of crap, The Arab Mind by Raphael Patai. Slackman just substituted "Iranians" for "Arabs" and "tarof" for "balagha."
And the picture that goes with the story was really irritating too.
There's a lot of free-floating stupidity out there that's always looking for a target.
It's the air that we breathe, nowadays, and that air that we breathe is toxic.
If Michael Slackman knew the first thing about his subject matter (Ogged), he'd know that in Mexico it's not about "ta(a)rof" but rather la mordida or "coffee money."
Edward Said is dead.
Unless it's Sa-eed.
In which case he di-eed.
(Not original, I know, but I felt like being ritually polite about it. And hey, how does tarof compare with Southerners? Can y'all tell the difference between "the sweetest thing" and "precious," or are we just too inscrutable an all?)
What scares me: is the adminstration better informed than Slackman? One would hope they don't base their readings of Ahmadinejad's missives based on a deep understanding of tarof, but there's the whole Sunni v. Shi'ite animosity which seems to have caught them by surprise.
Anyhow: does Slackman never say 'hey, how are you?' to colleagues?
I read the piece, and wondered what you thought of it, but didn't want to bother you with asking (after all, you never write, you never call), so thanks.
"Then he tries to scratch out some thesis about how the Iranian gift for 'indirection' makes them particularly wily negotiators. I don't know enough about diplomacy to know if that's true; I don't really care."
I hear you people are good with negotiating over carpets, but I'm prepared to jew you down.
I'm trying not to scream after reading Michael Slackman's truly awful, simply wrong article in the Times about Iranian culture.
He should have his hands cut off!
Bitch is right; "In Iran, you praise people but you don’t mean it, you invite people for all sorts of things, and you don’t mean it. You promise things, and you don’t mean it."
Sounds like everywhere I've ever been. Except for some of the time, people actually do mean it. Presumably, Iranians do have people actually come over for dinner on occasion.
This piece is totally fucking overwrought. Why did he have to take what's a pretty interesting piece of culture, and turn it into "what does this mean for America?"? I hate all this "ooooh, they're so foreign and weird" crap. The problem with Americans is that they're becoming largely immune to nuance, signals, and hints. It's there, people just aren't picking up on it anymore. Like how my friends don't realize that when they're over at my apartment at 1 am, "I'm sleepy" means "get the fuck out", par exemple.
Also, I second da about the picture. Ooh! Look! Women in weird scarves! So mysterious and foreign! Ugh.
You know, I'm getting into ranty territory now, but it's like 5 am there, so whatever. I've been traveling for almost three weeks, and I've met a lot of Americans, and every single last one, without exception, annoyed me. I've noticed that many Americans when abroad do three things: 1) talk about the way things are "In America" as a point of comparison, be it to say the conditions of the current country are either good or bad, 2) talk about themselves as a way of making conversation with someone they don't know, instead of asking questions, 3) fetishize all things that are foreign and/or different. I mean shit, who else is ever like "omg! They're speaking another language!" This one guy was like "I was trying to read the map, but it was all in German!" Of course it's in fucking German, you idiot, you're in Germany.
Anyway, given that I like a lot of people who are actually in the States, I wonder whether it is that a) traveling brings out the worst in people, or b) the only type of people that travel around staying in hostels are obnoxious ones.
Travel they say improves the mind,
An irritating platitude
Which frankly, entre nous,
Is very far from true.
Personally I've yet to find
That longitude and latitude
Can educate those scores
Of monumental bores
Who travel in groups and herds
and troupes
Of various breeds and sexes,
Till the whole world reels
To shouts and squeals
And the clicking of Rolleiflexes.
So, whenever anybody ends a letter with the old fashioned "I am your humble servant" or tells me that "mi casa es su casa" they're either offering me their indentured servitude or the house, right? Otherwise they would be insincere liars!
"Are falsehoods out of pure politeness (e.e, 'your most obedient servant' at the end of a letter), lying? No one is deceived by them."
Greatest Iranian philosopher ever.
I have read very similiar things about Chinese and Japanese indirection. In one instance a group of Japanese accused of being excessively flowery and elusive by another group of Japanese explained that they were flowery because, even though they seldom had the power to do what others hoped for (being poorer and weaker) at least they could provide a moment of pleasant social interaction. It often seems to be a stratagem for maintaining a good social relationship even when the important business at hand is unlikely to go well.
I think that this is one of the fingers that points both ways. Perhaps there are certain peoples of NW Europe and the US who tend to be blunt and rude and get down to business too quickly in a crass sort of way. Though in the present context, the piece in question is probably just intended to be another reason to nuke the foo-foo, mealy-mouthed bastards.
In Taiwan absolutely the worst people were the long-term expats. (Even the ones who weren't fugitives because of their sex crimes.)
Like how my friends don't realize that when they're over at my apartment at 1 am, "I'm sleepy" means "get the fuck out", par exemple.
Ooh, I hate that.
Also, I can't help but note just a little wryly, Silvana, that much of your 12 is kind of a textbook example of (1).
I think the answer to (b) is that most of the people who travel around staying in hostels are young, and for many of them this is their first major experience of travel, and so yeah, they're gonna be at that "omg, things are so different!" stage. That and they're likely to cluster in groups of their own kind (young Americans abroad), which makes it harder to get past that.
much of your 12 is kind of a textbook example of (1)
Yeah, but it's ok when I do it. Duh.
Actually, I think it's mostly Americans talking to non-Americans about how things are "in America," that annoys me because it a) assumes that the person you're talking to doesn't know much about the US, which they probably do more than you'd expect, and b) assumes the person wants to know your little insights.
I only really noticed this because I met this Australian dude who never once issued pronouncements about how things are in Australia unless specifically asked. But maybe he's just a cool dude.
I think I invite someone to an event that I don't actually desire their presence at at least once a week.
"ritually polite" is redundant, isn't it?
It is great news that some Americans (I'm assuming that some of the posters here, at least, are from the US of A) are wakening up to what most of ROW (Rest of World) has known for quite some time, namely that Americans have a huge blind spot when it comes to understanding others, and disguise cultural autism with smug, idiotic superiority.
many Americans when abroad
... talk really loudly in English on public transportation about how dirty and smelly and poorly behaved these foreigners are---because they just know nobody else in the train/bus could possibly understand English.
talk about themselves as a way of making conversation with someone they don't know, instead of asking questions
Isn't this true of almost everyone? Actually, I'm I think this is most true of academics. The classic conversation between two academics goes like this:
A1: I went to China this summer.
A2: Oh, I've never been there.
end
I would submit that the blind spot or cultural autism about other cultures is not a uniquely American trait.
On the actual topic of the post, I appreciated yglesias' post the other day on the unrecognized role of anti-arab racism in foreign policy commentary.
Japanese indirection
Oh man. I once worked on a project for a Japanese pharma company who was doing trials in the US for an FDA submission and we had to deal with them directly on a regular basis. I kept trying to remind myself that this was just a cultural difference, but on multiple occasions I felt like screaming, "Stop with the passive aggressive shit and just freaking tell me what you want already!"
They seemed very reluctant to ever actually say no about anything, even when they absolutely weren't going to accept it.
... talk really loudly in English on public transportation about how dirty and smelly and poorly behaved these foreigners are---because they just know nobody else in the train/bus could possibly understand English.
It is really cool to do this in Finnish though, as you are almost guaranteed that 99% of the people will be totally oblivious. (It also pisses off the car dealer when she can't tell if your wife likes the blue one.)
That said, you always have to be weary of the Token Finn which is present in any sufficiently large group of people in the world. Identify that one - and you are golden.
You misspelled "Tolkien".
You absolutely should not talk in public about how dirty and smelly the locals are except in their own language. Otherwise they will not get the message. It's really a good idea to single out the dirtiest and smelliest individual and tell him or her personally, so that people will understand exactly what you mean.
Apo, not saying "no" in so many words is actually a requirement of Japanese etiquette. I've seen it explicitly stated as such. So yeah, foreigners really are different sometimes
I have an inlaw who negotiates for a shipping company in Canton / Guangdong, and he says the same. (NOTE: Even so, Chinese and Japanese are not as much alike as people assume.)
Huh. I see my snotty response to 22 failed to post. I think great news that some Americans (I'm assuming that some of the posters here, at least, are from the US of A) are wakening up to what most of ROW (Rest of World) has known for quite some time is itself a bit on the smug and superior side, particularly for what I believe is a First Contact.
Whenever Americans abroad depress me I like to think of my Spanish friend meeting my Turkish friend, and bringing up the Armenian massacre in about the third sentence.
2) talk about themselves as a way of making conversation with someone they don't know, instead of asking questions
This is very true of Americans generally (and to answer cw's question, not true of all cultures). It's striking to me how seldom Americans ask me questions. I come away from most encounters knowing tons about the other person while they know very little about me.
Though I have a Swedish friend who says that in Lapland, where he's from, people will almost never ask questions unless it's "where are we going for dinner?" Relatives will apologize to him for their nosiness in asking what he intends to do upon graduation.
Okko: globally speaking 99.95% of the people will be oblivious.
Nice post, Ogged. While I was reading it I thought about my interactions with those vastly different people, the Irish, and how it took me a while to learn that you had to ask if your guest would like some tea three times before he'd say yes, so you had to throw the offer around a bit.
In general, I think authors of pieces about the mysterious other really should see if extremely familiar cultures have close analogues to the ostensibly alien practices, and if, as it usually is, the answer is yes, they should shut the fuck up.
Eskimos: not that many words for snow!
One of the stranger experiences I've had meeting new people was while shopping with an Australian friend, meeting a new Australian friend of hers who began to complain, in a strong nasal Melbourne accent, how whiny Americans sounded (he'd only been in the U.S. a few days.)
I was amused; she was mortified.
Brits abroad can be pretty bloody embarrassing as well so we can't really talk. Although that tends to be drunken obnoxiousness.
Speaking of people loudly conversing in the belief they wouldn't be understand, last time I caught a night bus back from London there was a Czech girl in the seat behind us carrying on a scurrilously filthy conversation over her mobile phone. I can only assume she thought no-one would understand. Not a fair assumption to make these days.
Agree, roughly, with FL. Pieces about the "mysterious Other" are usually crap. But--to be fair--there's a little something of that going on in your post, ogged. "Ritual politeness" is a phrase that makes sense to all of us because we all have a fair bit of familiarity with it. None of your examples struck me as bizarre, or as evidence of they strangeness of Iranian culture.
Also, nice line, Gary: I hear you people are good with negotiating over carpets, but I'm prepared to jew you down.
Well, my sin is that I ask too many questions. Most Americans would say that I was grilling them.
Speaking of which practice I have a question. What sort of behavior would Iranians expect of non-Iranians. I, for example, would be sure to insist that an old(er?) person enter the room first (would do that for an American too) and would pick up on the fact that everyone was waiting for the older people to sit. I'd pay the cab driver his fare, though I might not figure out what tip to pay. I probably wouldn't be able to decipher teh rpecise rules about refusing food though.
What would be considered adequate considerate behavior from an American?
Doug, you left out 'bless blank's heart'! It's not an endearment, it's a way of saying someone is so stupid it's cute in a sad way.
'Bobbi Sue wants to learn to breathe fire for the family reunion, bless her heart.'
We are weird and mysterious creatures down here in Ritual Insincerity Land.
We also press food on people who refuse the first time down here. And extra helpings. I don't know anyone who takes food when it's first offered. The polite thing to do is with a subtle hesitation smilingly refuse any offered food, thus cluing in the person offering the food that it's not a real refusal, just a demonstration that the person being offered food doesn't want to cause any difficulties.
Also, nice line, Gary: I hear you people are good with negotiating over carpets, but I'm prepared to jew you down.
I'll second that.
What would be considered adequate considerate behavior from an American?
Not nuking Tehran? Seriously, following the rules of old fashioned courtesy in your own culture is usually appreciated by all but the most xenophobic. One thing I get from that article is that the author is probably one of those people who think it's clever and modern to be rude to everybody - "I'm a straight talking guy, me" - and who I want to smack whatever language they speak.
Doug (8) and Winna (40ff) are correct about the South. Ritual politeness is a way of life down here that papers over a lot of differences, sometimes but not always for the better.
And as we all know down here, you can say the meanest, cattiest thing about someone as long as you tack "bless his/her heart" onto the end of it. [e.g., "John says he's having 'gender identity issues,' bless his/her heart." :-)] It makes it sound as if you're expressing a pity or sympathy you probably don't actually feel, which relieves everyone else in the room of the moral obligation of thinking, "OMG, after saying that, could he/she be any MORE of a bastard/bitch?"
My Iranian friend's mother's observation about Americans (here) was that they are always walking hurriedly with grim expressions on their faces.
Thanks for writing on this, ogged. This is as good a place as any to get a second opinion on the "if a guest admires something in the host's house, the host is obliged to try to give it to the guest" tradition, the collorary of which is that a guest should be very very reticent to admire things in hosts' houses. True? Operative for older Iranians?
I would submit that the blind spot or cultural autism about other cultures is not a uniquely American trait.
No, it sure isn't. But we're awfully good at it.
46: My cousin literally gave me the ring off her finger when I said that I liked it. I thought this was just posturing, but she would not let up, and finally I acquisced.
Also, I am currently reading Reading Lolita in Tehran (in Berlin), so this post seemed a little apropos. I didn't like it much at first, but now I think I am starting to.
My grandmother (not Iranian) would do that; admire the china tea cup, get a china tea cup. 'Better to take it now than wait till I'm gone.'
Morbid-ass grandmothers.
Is that the grandmother you thought you were turning into?
48. Yes, exactly. (Your cousin would be Egyptian? Hm, maybe it's a broader tradition?) And what I heard is that just because it's not posturing doesn't mean that the giver really wants to give it or won't miss it.
I've been told that in Chinese culture you do not compliment a man about his wife, because the message is understood as "I'd love to have sex with your wife."
25 gets it right. I submit that thinking that Americans are worse-behaved abroad than anyone else is a typically American solipsistic point of view. We notice bad Americans because we *are* Americans, and they embarrass us.
On the whole "you must ask three times if people want tea," I HATE that. My mother in law is the queen of saying "no, I'm not hungry, no I don't need anything." And because I happen to hate being fussed over, I say, "okay, well, let me know when you do" and then three hours later she's practically in tears because no one is feeding her. Gawd.
Her sister, Mr. B.'s German aunt, is the person who will simply hand you anything in her apartment that you admire and insist you take it. I don't find it morbid, I find it astonishingly gracious (and no, I don't take advantage of it, jeez) and really refreshingly exemplary of an attitude towards "things" that I wish I had.
53: My married cheater guy told me that while he lived in China, he actually *did* have sex with different men's wives more than once. While the men watched.
53 -- isn't this pretty well true in America too?
I did too, while I was in China. Then we all rode our new ponies up to ice cream mountain, and sat beneath the lemonade waterfall.
The generosity isn't morbid, but pointing out that if you want the pretty tea cup you should take it now before she dies is.
"China" s/b "unicorn island"
"ponies" s/b "wild Arabian unicorns"
57: Oh, *fine* text. I'm a naive girl who will believe anything from the strange men I fuck in hotel rooms.
58: Yeah, I suppose. My grandmother used to do that. I think I found it morbid sometimes, but mostly I saw it as sort of indicative of one of the things I liked about her, her utter lack of sentimentality.
Cala -- my (departed) grandma invited us all down several years back to pick through her stuff and see what we would like to have. Reasons given were, it's a hassle to have all this stuff around; not need to divvy it all up in a will; this way, she will get to see the stuff passed on to the next generation, where otherwise she would not.
(That side of my family is almost pathologically devoid of sentimentality.)
Also, the grandmas are wise. It is true that when people die, even the most loving families will get grabby, for all the best reasons: one remembers X object fondly and associates it with some of the best memories of grandma's house, and one therefore wants it. There's a lot to be said by avoiding hurt feelings by just parcelling stuff out ahead of time. It's a lot easier not to be sad that so-and-so has the such-and-such when you know that grandma herself is the one that gave it to them.
Cala, you can't ride unicorns after you've had sex. It's a well known unicorn thing. But you're right about the morbidness of "take it while I'm still here to give it you, dear". Also a bit self indulgent, I used to feel (it was an aunt who did this with me).
But back to the Iranians: is it true that Iranians, as a group, give away anything someone says they like? Because if that's so, Ogged better make sure his mother is out of the house when I drop by.
I'm just saying, sure, it might have happened.
46 -- this suggests a second question -- are there foreigners (or for that matter Iranians) who know about this quirk and exploit it?
66.--Well, that's why I was trying to get a second opinion.
Oh, definitely wise, and definitely laudatory as a proper attitude towards possessions, but still morbid. I mean, I was ten. Ten-year-olds don't think like that.
It seems to me worth pointing out in this context that some inherited (North) American styles of indirection, which seem to me analagous to ones we give quite a bit of deference to when they are "foreign," have been routinely execrated as "passive-aggressive" by other Americans, and yes, I continue to resent it.
Another irritating thing about that article was that it was such a missed opportunity. Some practices actually are different across different groups (notice I am not saying "cultures", "countries," or "races") and you can do real damage by being ignorant of them. The difference between looking people in the eye as a sign of respect and not looking them in the eye as a sign of respect is a good example.
What are you guys, nuts? Without posessions what would we keep in our houses?
analogous. Thought that didn't look right.
74 -- you misspelled "analingus".
What a joke. Anyone who knows anything about various East Asian cultural norms, for that matter, would know that they can be easily the 'dishonest' 'liars' that those Iranians are. Bowing ain't the half of it -- try asking a Japanese person a question that requires a 'no' response!
Related: I read somewhere the other day that a popular Arabic saying, also popular in Persian, is "What I say three times is true." This struck me as a lot more telling about the particularities of cultural norms (and their relationship to honesty) than anything in this war-propaganda article.
I take this saying to refer to things like needing to offer tea or food three times -- but also maybe it's advice not to take blustery threats too seriously? Anyone know?
55: My married cheater guy told me that while he lived in China, he actually *did* have sex with different men's wives more than once. While the men watched.
Did he pay the guy?
a popular Arabic saying, also popular in Persian, is "What I say three times is true."
The Bellman also used this formulation.
a popular Arabic saying, also popular in Persian, is "What I say three times is true."
The Bellman also used this formulation.
The Bush Administration is also fond of this saying.
"What I say three times is true."
My impression is that this has to do with the offering and refusing of food and drink. After three go-rounds, you can stop. I don't especially think it's applicable to blustery threats, which, as ogged suggested, might fall more neatly into the category of "posturing."
This is as good a place as any to get a second opinion on the "if a guest admires something in the host's house, the host is obliged to try to give it to the guest" tradition, the collorary of which is that a guest should be very very reticent to admire things in hosts' houses. True? Operative for older Iranians?
In my experience, this is pretty much a pure formality: you compliment, you're offered the thing, you refuse, it's over. *One* time, I saw someone give someone else his shirt after a compliment, and the general reaction was, "Dude, are you nuts?" But if an American is doing the complimenting, they might get the thing just so the Iranian can show off how awesomely different his culture his.
They seemed very reluctant to ever actually say no about anything
Best ever "Japanese don't say 'no'" story: an American guy had the wrong number for pizza delivery, and was calling some random person's house instead. Rather than saying "you've got the wrong place," the guy was getting the pizza and taking to the American. Magick Johnson told me this story, so I know it's true.
many Americans when abroad... talk really loudly in English on public transportation about how dirty and smelly and poorly behaved these foreigners are---because they just know nobody else in the train/bus could possibly understand English.
My father did this when we were on the 7 train out to Flushing. I was mortified. He was like "what? they're Chinese."
"if a guest admires something in the host's house, the host is obliged to try to give it to the guest"
This was a genuine risk in Samoa, but Samoans are from our point of view weirdly unattached to their stuff, so it wasn't a big deal. But you did have to be careful not to admire someone's stuff if you didn't want it -- I ended up with a couple of ie (sarongs) that way, by telling a student her ie was pretty, and then having her show up at my door with it, nicely laundered, that evening.
I do much better with cultures of insincerity than sincerity. I have a Ukranian guy working for me who is the sincerest guy I have ever met -- if you complement something, he does give it to you and no amount of refusing can stop it. I can barely remember my coworkers' spouses' names and he's calling me at home on my birthday.
70: Oh yeah, ten. That is morbid. Bad grandma.
71: Hey, I said that my mother in law drives me nuts by pretending she isn't hungry.
81: Hide the china, because I have no manners.
"if a guest admires something in the host's house, the host is obliged to try to give it to the guest"
I can honestly say I have never encountered this attitude or heard anyone talk about it before, outside that one Seinfeld episode.
I've been told that in Chinese culture you do not compliment a man about his wife, because the message is understood as "I'd love to have sex with your wife."
Doesn't the statement "She is attractive" imply "I would like to have sex with her" in pretty much all cultures? Don't men tend to enjoy receiving that message, as opposed to the opposite?
33: That is a cool link, let the conquest begin. Lets start with teaching the 6 locative cases...
86: No, "she is attractive" means, "she is pleasing to look at," or maybe, "the average person tending that way would want to have sex with her." It doesn't, among the people I interact with, imply that he speaker has the personal desire or intention of doing so.
text -- you're obviously hanging with the wrong crowd.
You know just how inscrutable the Japanese are? They say "I'm going" (iku) when they mean "I'm coming." As in, "Oh God, ...".
And if you're going to China, refrain from greeting strangers as "comrade" (tongzhi). These days, it means "faggot."
My brother's German mother-in-law feeds them inedible salted fish as a snack. If they don't finish it, they get it again the next day.
My brother's German grandfather-in-law is a unrepentant WWII Nazi. People who unbderstand German say he's also possibly schizophrenic.
We laugh at B's wimpy German in-laws. Ha !
Ukko, 10,000 years ago the Indo-Europeans were just a small tribal people north of the Black Sea, and now look at them. 10,000 years from now, everyone in the world will be Finnish. Nokia and Linux are only the beginning.
An alternative view of Iranian culture from Garance Franke-Ruta: 'When did "Do you speak Farsi?' become the new pick-up line in D.C.?"
You know just how inscrutable the Japanese are? They say "I'm going" (iku) when they mean "I'm coming." As in, "Oh God, ...".
The Japanese are so messed up, they don't know if they're coming or going.
The Japanese are so messed up, they don't know if they're coming or going.
Aw snap!
The Japanese so fat, when they go whale hunting something something I don't know these are harder than they look.
The Japanese so fat, they're not that shaggy.
The Japanese so fat, when they tell each other they look good in that outfit, it's only insincere ritual politeness.
. . . when you say "Kobe!" they think you talkin' 'bout a city!
The Japanese so fat, they pussies is siiiideways!
The Japanese such sluts they got more Wangs in 'em than a
oh shit total meltdown this is exactly like the bit at the beginning of 8 Mile I got performance anxiety real bad and this crowd’s gonna turn on my ass when it realizes I’m actually a pasty white nerd
The Japanese so fat, they really good at sumo wrestling!
And if you're going to China, refrain from greeting strangers as "comrade" (tongzhi). These days, it means "faggot."
Of course all the old Learn Chinese textbooks feature dialogs making liberal use of tongzhi.
Also, I left China in 2000, but at that time, tongzhi was used by gay men as an ironic term for fellow gay men. Has it now become a pejorative used by straight folk?
The Japanese so phat, you a pasty white nerd!
The Japanese so fat, they pussies is siiiideways!
You know, I heard this as a kid and assumed it was true until I was 13 or 14 and saw pornography that disproved it.
106: True, I think it's both, but predominantly used by gays rather than pejoratively by straights -- so "faggot" the way Dan Savage would use the word. Maybe "queer" is a better translation.
You know, I heard this as a kid and assumed it was true until I was 13 or 14 and saw pornography that disproved it.
My Korean buddy Mike never laughed so hard as the day I ran the concept by him.
109: I believe the closest translation of tongzhi is "my queer brother from another mother". Chinese is economical like that.
Also, since noone else has stepped up: "You were in China M/tch?"
Lazy ass unfoggedeteers, so casual about their obligations, so situational in their ethics, always on my lawn . . .
Well, if a 30-something Korean man asked me if it was true that American women have sideways hoo-hoos, I'd laugh too!
Um, they don't, do they??
Chinese "Comrade" brand condoms, the first in China to be marketed to gay men. I like the package, I wish I knew where to buy some.
At last, the perfect time to link to this.
Ogged, what the hell are you on about? Noone in that video looked Chinese!
That is superkoranically wizard cocksucker, ogged.
I especially liked the cupid with a bazooka. And the Circus Strongman's spinning technique. The ending was a bit conventional, though.
Was that what happened after your surgery, ogged?
48: Her explanation was that it was really cheap, and she had just bought it so it didn't mean a lot to her, and she could easily just buy another and that she would have just bought one for me but I was leaving Cairo the next day and she wouldn't have the chance, so I should just take hers right now.
You know the worst thing? I think I lost it.
An example of American ritual politeness: even though the question is of massive importance in American life (Hedy Lamarr, who was small-brasted, remarked about it in her book "Ecstasy and Me", which I highly recommend), if a guy want to compliment an attractive woman, in most cases he does not NOT compliment her about her breasts.
Emerson, are you missing a comma or something, or do you mean to say that any compliment of a woman's attractiveness has to involve her breasts? 'Cause that's certainly not been my experience.
I think Emerson is saying that you can say to a woman "You have nice smile" or "I like your hair" or the more general "You look stunning," but you really should not say "You have a very attractive pair of breasts" under most circumstances.
Right, Emerson?
but you really should not say "You have a very attractive pair of breasts" under most circumstances.
Because if you were to say this, she (following the rules of ritual politeness) would feel obliged to give them to you.
Nice tits you got there, silvana.
That's not the first time I've heard that.
And I'm still in possession of them. So, guess I'm not a real Arab. But then, we already knew that.
Do Arabs frequently misplace their breasts?
114 is truly fabulous. But of course he ends up marrying a nice doctor. Really, if he'd just let his parents arrange the marriage, he'd have saved a lot of trouble.
Why does the video advise at the end that you protect yourself from aides?
Why does the video advise at the end that you protect yourself from aides?
Because it's such a terrible struggle to resist their seductive beauty.
You know what makes me cry (almost)? That video. I've known too many young gay men going around whoring it up, miserable and mistreated and scared. It's so sad.
That video is unimpeachably odd. Does anyone know for what purpose it was actually created?
It appears to be some kind of series.
Produced by or maybe for these people.
(Scroll down; on right-hand side).
It appears that the French government paid for these. So fucking cool.
You'll be appalled to know that this article is at the very top of the front page of the weekly NYT supplement that goes out in several European newspapers (El Pais, Le Monde, La Repubblica, Süddeutsche Zeitung, Daily Telegraph).