As long as he's not in Sweden, he has no excuse.
Um, I don't know if you've noticed, but this place is a bit of a time-suck. That could be the problem.
Weiner kept filling the comments with sonnets to Ben Roethlisberger's departed front teeth, and he had to be banned. Sad, that.
WhyTF doesn't YouTube have a video of that Champ Bailey interception?
(Experiments show that I can fritter away a lot of time even without reading this place. I need to get control of that. Also, I did just get back from Scotland Monday night, and I'm moving into a new house, which will happen real soon if I don't find the key to the place I'm staying. And you're not the boss of me.)
I think it might have something to do with ogged and his here-now, gone-tomorrow behavior. You were Weiner's rock, man, and now you keep drifting. Besides, TAPPED suddenly has regular postings from the absolutely righteous Charlie Pierce. And even apo can't top that.
I made my opinion of Charles Pierce known at the meetup.
I'm not sure how I feel about pramgatism.
Is that a philosophy of transporting guns in baby carriages?
You know, I was just about sure that would get you back Matt!
(and very nice thought on the comeback)
8: I didn't hear your opinion of Charles Pierce because you were drowned out by the booming voice of Scott Lemieux.
(My opinion was that he's trying too hard to be a Blogger.)
His new table of categories is the most difficult sports journalism I have ever read.
Re: 14. Yeah, established writers work their asses off to be bloggers just like chick magnets of 12 or 13 years of age kill themselves to be comic book geeks. I think I get the logic.
1) For the "other" Charles Pierce, it was "pragmaticism". As Lubbockites know.
2) He's not another Charles Pierce. He's Charles Peirce. And it's pronounced differently.
This has been your pedantic intervention for today.
18: Look, dude, I don't know anything about Pierce except his Tapped posts, which I find unpleasantly overwrought. I don't know anything about Peirce at all, except that he is apparently associated with something called "Pragmaticism."
That article was remarkably content-free. Yet it went on and on.
Emerson, you prarie dog fucker, don't start with me.
See, ogged knows what's up.
More seriously, that article doesn't have any of the aggressive informality of his Tapped posts, which leads me to believe that he's trying for a casual, in-jokey "blogger style" which I find off-putting. But hey, I could be wrong; maybe that's his natural style and he tones it down for "serious" publications.
Sorry, ogged, but Pierce is to magazine journalism what Jordan was to baseketball before his retirement(s).
I don't know much about Pierce Peirce, but I believe he was one of the first to use the term semiotics. I thought he might have shown up in linguistics, but probably not.
I haven't read Tapped for a while and don't know anything at all about Peirce Pierce. It doesn't seem like it would be terribly hard for anyone, no matter how experienced writing outside of blogs, to seem like they're trying too hard to be a blogger. All you'd need to do is think that "to blog is to write like X" and then try very hard to write like X, and not quite succeed in hiding that effort, possibly because it's not usually your style to write like X in other contexts.
(On preview, what Teo said.)
In this country there's very little overlap between linguistics and semiotics. In Europe the situation may be different.
26: I think you mean what Trey Parker was to baseketball.
the aggressive informality of his Tapped posts
Yes, that is annoying.
I've enjoyed some things Pierce has done, so I'm not happy to write this, but he embodies for me a particular sort of Massachusetts blowhard type. Always more-Boston-than-thou, except when it's time to keep it real and drop that he's straight-up Wormtown, old-style, cuz. So, so tiresome.
And even apo can't top that.
I have yet to see a single penis amputation post at TAPPED, so I really don't see what your point is.
30: I know just what you mean about a particular type of people that I used to call Massholes, but I never knew Woo-rats to pretend to be more Boston than thou (other than Denis Leary). I think it's just that New Englanders are genetically annoying.
That said, I like Pierce the way I like my fellow Baltimoron James Wolcott, because they can both write sentences you won't soon forget.
I never knew Woo-rats to pretend to be more Boston than thou (other than Denis Leary).
The thing is, Pierce is exactly like Leary in this respect.
That said, I like Pierce the way I like my fellow Baltimoron James Wolcott, because they can both write sentences you won't soon forget.
This is so wrong, and is a precise description of the problem with both Pierce and Wolcott. In each case, the blogging has made me think less of the writer. Pierce once (IIRC) wrote a very nice haigiographic article in GQ about a basketball player named Randy Livingston. For many, many years, I felt sorry for both Livingston and myself for the injury which robbed both of us of so much great basketball. After reading Pierce on Tapped, I'm no longer sorry for either of us.
Perhaps someone could post a map of the Boston area making it clear exactly why Peierce's writing is no good. (Boston is out East, over by New York and Cleveland, right?)
Pierce's blogging style seems like a toned down version of his regular style. I admit I've only read ten or so articles by him, so maybe I'm wrong there.
I'm sceptical that he tries too hard to write like a blogger, mainly because he doesn't write at all like a blogger.
I like Pierce. He's pretty good on Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me, when I've heard him there. I like his comments on Only a Game. Berube linked to a great review he did eviscerating Carville and Begala's book Take it Back for the Prospect.
Also he had a great line in a blog post about how Bill Clinton had the worst record on civil liberties until the current crew took the Bill of Rights and shat on it. I'm paraphrasing. badly.
ogged, why are you reading all the way through Drum's comment section? That's almost as bad as Tripp's posting over there.
First, to clarify the impression from 21, 22, & 25, that Jordan article was remarkably dull for Pierce - the wittiest bits in it stand where the dullest bits do in his best writing.
What I find in most of his writing - magazine, TAPPED, and Altercation, where he first wrote in a semi-blog format - is clever, occasionally absurd turns of phrase building towards a well-thought-out point. In other words, like a Baby Boom Andrew Northrup. I will grant teo that his TAPPED pieces tend to be a bit... dense. A bit too much phrase-tossing, not enough argument. But for someone who liked his writing beforehand, it doesn't seem especially forced.
Oh and Emerson's right in 35 - this provincial "He's too Boston" crap is just bullshit. I don't see anyone here who's been given the job of deciding who gets to be an authentic New Englander, Massachusettan (whatever), Bostonian, or Worcestershirian. Ad geographem arguments are only acceptable when directed at those fucking Southerners.
I totally get to determine that I am an authentic Bostonian.
A bit too much phrase-tossing, not enough argument.
I think that's right. He seems to write in ALLCAPS. It's annoying. And there too little meat; instead it's trivial points dressed up with in purile "So's your mother" clothes. I keep expecting him to put indications of where the rimshots are supposed to be.
And what the fuck is with TAP? How does TNR get Brad Plummer? TNR's weak; now is the time to crush it and leave its writers' spouses wailing and nashing their teeth.
I've heard that Bostoniangirl is not really from Boston itself, but from the nearby city of Pittsburgh, PA. I'm too much of a gentleman to make a big deal of this, however, or to go around blabbing the news to everyone.
I like Pierce because he's less young and collegiate, and usually funnier, than the others.
40: If it's rimshots you're expecting, then I think "phrase-tossing" s/b "salad tossing".
this provincial "He's too Boston" crap is just bullshit.
Hey, I totally agree! Except for the minor fact that--and you're right in assuming we can totally ignore this--no one actually said anything like that. It has nothing to do with being "too Boston"--the SO is OFD, am I gonna complain about that?--it has to do with how a writer presents himself.
But this is too stupid an argument to bother with at this time of night. I'm off to bed.
He's pretty good on Wait, Wait Don't Tell Me, when I've heard him there.
I dispute this statement for all possible values of "He".
Come on, WWDTM is one of the few NPR-produced shows that doesn't suck.
My show, "Talk of the Nation", is pretty wretched—for example.
Thanks, N/eal, I appreciate your candor.
Anyone else want to confess? Truth and reconciliation and all that.
I like "Fresh Air"; I realize you will feel obligated to make fun of me, SB. Have at it.
I don't mind "Fresh Air", and it's occasionally good. The interviews with Triumph and the guy who voices Spongebob were awesome.
Thanks for getting my back, Standpipe.
Actually, Tim, I do happen to think that PRI programs are more interesting than NPR ones. They're allowed more freedom; they don't have to fit into as rigid of a mold as the NPR ones.
I am a huge fan of Christopher Lydon's. My crush has been tempered over time, but I still love the man. His new show in PRI is good. The Connection on PRI was a lot more fun than when it became an NPR show (though still awesome). NPR's break schedule screws up the rhythm of a lot of good shows.
The World is not half bad either.
Thank you so much for talking with us, Tim-Tim.
We had a thread about Terry Gross, back in the day.
I'd forgotten about that thread. I just did a quick search of it to make sure I hadn't made snide comments about the show to fit in with the cool kids. Thankfully, no.
What B-girl said. I think I might be repeating myself, but the best public radio is to be found among the big-market locally produced shows and the offerings from PRI and APM (née Minnesota Public Radio).
The World has great theme music, and both Lisa Mullins and frequent stand-in Mark O'Whoreman (sp?) have good voices for radio.
Speaking of good voices for radio, can we please have Bob Edwards back? Steve Inskeep and Renée Montagne have no voice talent at all. They modulate everything like they're explaining bunny rabbits to five-year-olds.
I love(d) TAL, and I think that was/is PRI.
It is awesome, and is PRI.
Did you know that Ira Glass is 40-something?
Yeah. Here's a nice interview with him.
I used to love "This American Life," but I haven't listened to it regularly for 5 or 6 years now. It is still very good.
I haven't managed to be pulled in by Studio 365, but I sort of feel as though I ought to like it, because it's the hipper, cooler, newer version of TAL.
Who makes "The Next Big Thing"? A very poor knockoff of the awesome TAL.
Also, who makes "On the Media". It's very good but comes on at 6am on Saturdays in my neck of the woods, so I don't often listen to it. But it's Ira Glass approved!
And also also, I like Scott Simon's voice bunches.
Oh, oh, and did you hear the Car Talk Christmas special with tragically sincere Tiny Ira OMG!
Studio 360 rots. Kurt Andersen rots.
Scott Simon especially rots.
65: Says the Prarie Home Companion fan.
See I can't even get the name right. 360, not 365.
"On the Media" is from New York. WNYC. I like Brooke Gladstone. It
s available as podcast from iTunes, but I didn't liek it enought ot listen to it fast enough. My computer is old and too many mp3s clog my hardrive. I found that I was often deleting episodes of OTM without listening to them. I do generally like it when I catch it live though.
Oh Dad, the thing about the Teletubbies is, you know we like to believe they're different from you and from me. But the fact is, when we talk about Tinky-Winky, and Dipsy, and Laa Laa, and Po, Dad, we're really just talking about ourselves. Do you know what I mean? Each of us has these pictures that we project from our bellies for others to see, and we stand in front of each other and we stare. And words mean nothing! Words mean nothing.
But do we really see what is in each other's bellies, or what is written in our hearts? Do we, like Dipsy, and Laa Laa, and like Po? Do you see what I mean? Do you see what I mean, Dad.
CarTalk has gotten so annoying. Once upon a time it was actually a live show. They actually recommend new cars nowadays.
CarTalk did do an awesome "Worst Cars of the Millenium" feature which they took down a couple of years ago. If anyone knows where I can find an archived copy of it, I'd be hugely grateful.
Once upon a time it was actually a live show.
Are any of the call-in shows live anymore? I thought they all started taping in advance after Janet Jackson's nipple thing.
I thought the "what are you wearing?" question was more common in other phone contexts.
66: Says the poopyhead.
Studio 360 rots. Kurt Andersen rots.
I'm sooo glad you said that. Kurt Andersen--Jebus. Has there ever been anyone more impressed with himself? He's like the arrogant Whit Stillman character come to life, on the radio.
CarTalk hasn't been live for at least a decade and probably much longer.
The Worst Cars of the Millenium thing is back up. It's really hilarious, must-read Internet.
Wow, you folks sure do know a lot about NPR. What's weird is that I myself listen to it a lot but I can't keep the shows straight in my head. It's like one big mushed-up show.
Except for A Prairie Home Fucking Companion, which incidentally must be at least eight fucking hours long because every time I forget it's Saturday and turn on the radio, it seems to be on.
In NYC we get Brian Lehrer in the mornings. He's my favorite radio dude ever.
Who makes "The Next Big Thing"? A very poor knockoff of the awesome TAL.
TAL being, in turn, a poor knockoff of certain phases of the mighty Joe Frank's radio career, Joe Frank being my favorite radio dude ever, followed on purely theoretical grounds by Arkansas Red.
What's weird is that I myself listen to it a lot but I can't keep the shows straight in my head. It's like one big mushed-up show.
You know what causes this? NPR Enunciation. God it drives me up the fucking wall. Instantly recognizable and and incredibly annoying.
TAL being, in turn, a poor knockoff of certain phases of the mighty Joe Frank's radio career, Joe Frank being my favorite radio dude ever, followed on purely theoretical grounds by Arkansas Red.
Relentless and ill-founded pursuit of individual differentiation is understandable in college, w-lfs-n. Not so much, anymore.
Everybody's favorite radio dude ought to be Glen Jones
You wouldn't be so glib were you familiar with Joe Frank, Timbot.
For all his talk about him being an idol, w-lfs-n isn't even spelling Joe Franklin's name right.
Who makes "The Next Big Thing"?
Seeing this question, I got all excited for a moment think that this thread had turned into a discussion of The Dictators. Sadly, no.
This American Life seems pretty much as long as A Prairie Home Companion to me--every time I'm out driving on the weekend and turn on the radio, there's Ira fucking Glass narrating some endless, pointless story about what some loser found in his attic or something. Horrible.
A couple years ago I kept hearing about "This American Life" being great, and intending to listen to it sometime. I still have not got around to it. Radio without songs is generally less interesting to me.
This American Life is the Unfogged of radio, except that founder Glass (a) is now married, and (b) did really well with women prior to that.
(And really: check out Glen Jones' archives. He is a national treasure [apologies to John Emerson].)
(Well, at least a northern New Jersey treasure.)
BG, I have to tell you what a former writer/producer of Ly/don's told me: All those interesting books he talks about? He doesn't read them. His producers do, and they give him lists of questions to ask. Those spontaneous thoughts? Fed to him by his producers through his headphones. The man is a mere shell. It's best you should know this now, so that you can send the love to Ira Glass, who deserves it.
Public radio sucks. They've been taken over by the conservatives--haven't you all noticed how deeply invested in the Rovian story line all the interviewers are? I pretty much hate them except for the local MPR news show, Marketplace, The Splendid Table, and Future Tense.
That being said, The Current might be the best music station I've ever heard.
Late thoughts:
Pierce doesn't bother me, I must know how to take him. He's about my age. I heard him trying to talk about NASCAR w/ Littlefield a few years ago, and he had to pretend to know what he obviously didn't. Somehow made me like him better. Go figure.
Gradually become harder to enjoy listening to NPR shows over the last dozen years. I agree that TAL can be good, that Joe Frank is very good indeed, that Connections used to be better, that OTM is ok. I enjoy Harry Shearer: maybe it's a boomer thing.
Beginning around the time of the first Gulf War, I started listening to shortwave as much as I could. BBC, Radio Netherlands, Radio Canada, Deutsche Welle. Had a set over my kitchen sink, in my office at work, and in my basement office. It's become less rewarding as more and more of the prime time broadcasts have moved to DBM, a promising medium that will be static free, and that will make listening to them in the car practical. It will be a free alternative to satelite radio. When I get a set, when they become available and the prices come down, I'm sure I'll listen more. I'll be so well-informed I can pretend to be a real Canadian.
Joe Franklin raped me.
Charles Pierce rulz.
Whenever I happened to listen to This American Life, about 1/3 of the time I found it mildly interesting, and the other 2/3 of the time I found it deeply annoying.
The Worst Cars list was fun, but having the Yugo at #1 was anticlimactic.
Surprised there were no British sportscars listed.
Joe Franklin raped me.
I think Joe Franklin's real flash.
Philosophy stuff: 19.2, hence "pramgaticism," 27, I believe he was one of the first to use the term semiotics, actually John Locke used it but apparently was beaten to the punch by one Henry Stubbes.
And I realize now that my response should've been, "Tell it to the Washington Monthly.
And I found the key. It was with the packing tape.
one Henry Stubbes
Weird -- OED does not think there is an "s" at the end of his surname. Whom to trust, whom to trust?
Speaking of which, I really should've added to this thread a little ditty to the tune of this song, which I've never heard:
Washington Monthly, I want you to love me
American pundit, brooding and Drumly
Washington Monthly, I know you could love me
I'm cool and I'm studly, I'm gonna fisk Sully!
Washington Monthly, why won't you love me?
Why won't you love me? Why won't you love me?
94 - You and your packing tape. Sheesh.
On the Media was the first radio media, as far as I know, to produce a blog post in toto--The Poor Man's "Where the White Woman At? 24-Hour Cable News Network." It can sometimes be a bit insider-baseball-y, but I really like Brooke Gladstone's amused, cynical voice.
This American Life can be excellent, especially when they devote the entire hour to following one story. About a year ago they had an excellent hour-long story about a guy who was convicted on a "material aide to terrorism" charge, and they went through how he was set up, and how the jury came to convicted. They also had a really good half-hour segment on the Lancet mortality study, maybe the best treatment of the study I've heard or read. However, the show seems to overrely on certain contributors. Yes, David Sederis can be funny, but enough already. And lay off the twee.
Terri Gross used to annoy the shit out of me, but I'm starting to think that her on-air persona ("It's always seemed to me that [nervous laugh] your work is about childhood, a sort of...") a might actually work at getting people to talk. People who get interviewed probably have twenty stock answers, prepared points, and interviewers are probably searching for any technique they can to elicit new answers.
Neal Conan's on-air manner annoys the crap out of me. He has a kind of faux concern that always makes it sound like he's condescending to his guests. I like the hour-long, single-theme format, though, and Conan's producer seems to be able to book interesting guests.
Christopher Lydon's Open Source Radio is spotty. I haven't decided yet how I feel about their model of working with the internet. Sometimes it does lead them to truly offbeat, cool stories. Sometimes it feels almost exploitative--the online people are contributing story ideas, guest ideas, but the public face is Christopher Lydon: talk about the new gatekeepers. "Empty shell," indeed.
If you think you do not like Ira Glass and/or This American Life, you are mistaken. For example, you really must, but especially ogged and SCMT, must listen to Ira Glass issue a request on all our behalves: John Kerry, please go away. It's at about 24 minutes in, here.
Joe Franklin raped me.
For my money, the funniest line in that movie was Taylor Negron saying, "How can we do this, after the tragic events of January 3rd?"
If you don't like This American Life it is because you are soulless and wrong. It is, however, acceptable to be sick and tired of David Sedaris.
Taylor Negron's capacity for comic genius has been obvious at least since he played Mr. Milo.
this song, which I've never heard
Really? Huh. It seemed unavoidable a few years back. Here you go.
Seeing this question, I got all excited for a moment think that this thread had turned into a discussion of The Dictators. Sadly, no.
I saw The Dictators perform at CBGB's in 1994.
For example, you really must, but especially ogged and SCMT, must listen to Ira Glass issue a request on all our behalves: John Kerry, please go away.
What? I love Glass; see nos. 59, 61, 77, and 84. And I listened to that piece just yesterday.
There's an NPR show that comes on at about 8pm or 9pm in NYC. Don't know the name of the show or the host, but I've heard it quite a number of times. It's a politics show, deals a lot with foreign policy (Lebanon, Iraq, etc.) but also takes on issues like "Intelligent Design." Anyway, the host is a fucking idiot, and biased. And there's a phone-in component, during which he always sounds annoyed with the callers and tries to hustle them off the line.
Brian Lehrer is so great because not only is he really really smart, he has a very nice manner with his callers.
What?
I just meant that for those who identify as anti-Republican but had trouble identifying as pro-Kerry (among whom I included, maybe mistakenly, you and ogged) that was a great piece.
I've met him at a party. Very nice man: a friend who'd just written a book was a little overserved, and was trying to sell Lehrer on doing a segment on it, and Lehrer was completely pleasant and friendly about it.
Brian Lehrer is great. I think it's true though that NPR, proper, has gotten less good, especially since they sacked Bob Edwards. But many regional programs, especially on WNYC and KQED and, yes, Harry Shearer, are excellent.
Someday we're going to disagree on a matter of taste, and I will be sad.
but had trouble identifying as pro-Kerry (among whom I included, maybe mistakenly, you
No, that's definitely me. And I agreed with the hypothesis of the piece: it was John Kerry's fault.
And there's a phone-in component, during which he always sounds annoyed with the callers and tries to hustle them off the line.
Gotta be On Point with Tom Ashbrook. Annoys the hell out of me. Though I've never been able to get the appeal of call-in radio shows, anyway.
Yes, JL, thanks. That's the show. That guy is an idiot.
I see that in 94 I claimed to have joked off "pragmaticism" rather than "pragmatism." I apologize.
cw, I'm preparing myself to be sad, but to my knowledge slol hasn't commented on the Keillor issue either way.
I saw The Dictators perform at CBGB's in 1994.
Cool. I've seen them a couple of times. Once back in I think about 1990 or '91, and again about 5 or 6 years ago. Lots of fun. Both times were in Providence. The first time was sort of unplanned. The club they were performing in was below an art gallery/club that had recently put in a staircase as a rear exit to meet fire codes. We were hanging out in the gallery, watching some band (or something) perform when we decided crash the club downstairs. So we ran down the staircase and into the club from its back, dispensing with that whole "paying" thing.
Handsome Dick Manitoba is the man.
Be not sad: I am pro-Keillor, with very minor reservations.
I apologize.
I didn't want to make you feel bad and maybe run away again, so I didn't mention it.
117: Ages ago in a hostel in Turkey I met a guy who told me about The Dictators -- I had never heard of them before. Apparently Handsome Dick Manitoba tended/tends bar somewhere in NY and is full of stories. The hostel dude told me the name of the bar, but now I forget. Now I realize that I must have seen the Dictators in '95 or '96.
He used to do a lot of bartending, though now he has his own bar.
Yeah. Does Ira Glass have his own bar? I don't think so.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned how annoying Ira Glass's speaking style is. It stands out from among the NPR/PRI stable of personalities, but his intonation is totally bizarre. It's amazing to me that he ever got a job in radio.
Whaddaya, some kinda intonation prescriptivist?
Yeah, I remember when Glass started out as a reporter for either Morning Edition or All Things Considered, and then went on to a brief stint as host of Talk of the Nation (after John Hockenberry) and I thought, this guy is going to need a seriously customized niche, not these ones, in which to ply his craft. But he made one for himself, didn't he?
I'm surprised no one has mentioned how annoying Ira Glass's speaking style is.
Drives me crazy. Absolutely unlistenable--and you know he's going to go on forever.
I enjoy Harry Shearer: maybe it's a boomer thing.
Actually I like Le Show a lot myself.
Handsome Dick Manitoba actually is a dick, for having made a band change its name.
You people are weird. Ira's voice is like a soft warm blanket.
Tom Ashbrook. God I hate him. I especially hate the way he always repeats three variations on a stupid question about whatever issue he's muddying.
Ira Glass's voice, and This American Life's feel are both wuss-boy to the max, and yet the show is very good. At least, the few hours of it that I've heard have been good; I don't much listen to the radio.
130: Yeah, but he cuts off his callers after 5 seconds.
And not only that, he always has guests on that spout boilerplate. One will not get any insight into anything that's going on in the world by listening to that show.
128: That dude should have known he would go under the thunder of Manitoba--and be grateful he hadn't infringed on anything the Rolling Stones considered theirs.
Ira Glass doesn't bug me because of the wuss-boy thing. It's that when he talks, it sounds like all his words were pre-recorded individually and then edited together to make sentences. The intonation is all screwy.
The actual content of his show is often good.
Ira Glass's voice, and This American Life's feel are both wuss-boy to the max, and yet the show is very good.
Weirdly, it's not "yet," but "because," I think. There's nothing authoritative about his voice, and somehow, that makes him more trustworthy. But, mostly, he and his team just put together fantastic shows. I remember thinking, when I first heard the show, "I didn't know you could do that on radio."
The greatest public radio host ever, of course, is Harlan McKosato.
132: For once, I agree with the Persian 100%. Ira Glass has the most annoying voice and manner I've ever experienced, but I love the idea of what he's trying to achieve, even though he gets there only about a quarter of the time.
Wuss-boy is pretty much perfect, though I would have described him as goggle-tanned.
I love Ira Glass and would have his babies.
Garrison Keillor, on the other hand, needs to be shot. This is simple fact, and one of the few issues about which Slol and Standpipe are objectively wrong.
Do you really want to argue the merits, or do you just want to enjoy the fine feeling of having a firmly expressed, altogether unsupported opinion stuck out there in the comment stream?
I kinda like him too. I could see not having a taste for him, but he seems to get disproportionate hostility.
Wrong again, femitroll. Garrison Keillor is a-ok.
do you just want to enjoy the fine feeling of having a firmly expressed, altogether unsupported opinion stuck out there in the comment stream?
It's ok to disagree with b, slol, but try not to bring down the whole house of cards when you do, ok?
Yeah, GK is fine if you like smug condescension. Is that enough argument for you, Slol?
The thing I don't understand, and I've said this before, is the vehemence of opinions about Keillor (both pro and con). I don't have any strong feelings about him one way or the other.
Keillor isn't smugly condescending.
Booyah! Counter-argument!
What'd I say? I thought that was perfectly acceptable.
Anyway, on the major point, I don't think he smugly condescends---except when he's talking about atheism, which to my knowledge he doesn't do on Prairie Home Companion. I think PHC is a very nice piece of work, a non-smarmy piece of genuine Americana. I don't need to hear it every week, but when it's on, I do like to listen to it.
146: Yeah, well, you're from the midwest too. You wouldn't recognize smug condescencion if it bit you on the ass, since it's "just how people talk" in those parts.
Is there a more smugly condescending phrase than "genuine Americana"?
Who's he condescending to? Seriously, I don't get it -- I feel like when apo was calling Kerry condescending to Southerners, and then it developed was that he meant SOutherners were going to perceive Kerry as an asshole, regardless of whether he ever expressed anything negative about them.
I think you're confusing sincere, unlayered and unironic, appreciation with smug condescension.
I sorta like Keillor but I can't see how anyone could listen every week. And his singing isn't even funny.
Now living back in Lake Wobegon, I'm putting together my anti-L.-W. stories: the farmers who sabotaged the powerlines, the angry divorced man who got busted for producing Sarin, the man who repeatedly stole the police car and then got elected Justice of the Peace, my brother's friend who hanged himself in the local lockup, and the Trotskyist whose brother-in-law is a Pat Robertson clone.
Is there a more smugly condescending phrase than "genuine Americana"?
Is there a more bootlessly dodgy form of argument than the rhetorical question?
Keillor's fine. I enjoy his Guy Noir sketches, even if they're sort of hokey. I don't really get the "condescencion" complaint.
Also, B, how can you think the Minnesota State Fair is totally cool, but dislike Prairie Home Companion?
People really do talk differently around here. "Fargo" was even more exaggerated, but the caricature was right on the money. I now understand why people thought I was weird when I showed up at a predominantly-Jewish West Coast college. I should have charged money for the freak show.
152: I believe the point here is that sophisticated West Coast urbanites are going to perceive Keillor as an asshole, regardless of whether he ever expresses anything negative about them.
Slolerner, no, I live in an undisclosed location halfway between Minneapolis and Fargo. The Trotskyist may live in Anoka.
You're not saying that the collection of behaviors I listed is characteristic of Anoka too?
Statement A: I love Ira Glass and would have his babies.
totally undermines the credibility of Statement B: Garrison Keillor, on the other hand, needs to be shot.
Statement B would be true, however, if "needs to be shot" were replaced with "needs to retire the stale powdermilk biscuit schtick" and/or "needs to step away from the microphone in order to minimize the horrible sound of his labored breathing."
sophisticated West Coast urbanites
That's a new phrase.
MTW, a comment I put on another thread is more relevant here:
Sonic Youth and the Flaming Lips are playing at the Minnesota State Fair. Does this mean that the Minnesota State Fair is totally cool, or that Sonic Youth and the Flaming Lips have lost it worse than anyone could ever have imagined?
You're not saying that the collection of behaviors I listed is characteristic of Anoka too?
No, Anoka is generally supposed to be The Real Lake Wobegon, so when you said you live in TRLW, I thought you meant Anoka.
Mournful Oatmeal, the Cereal of Calvinism. That was a product.
"MTW" -- do I have to explain everything?
I think that Lake Wobegon has to be not too far from St. Cloud, probably north, in a mixed German-Norwegian town. Anoka was probably trying just to horn in.
159 -- The Minnesota Whine is one of my favorite regional dialects. (Or is it an accent?) Not least because of the good humor with which its users accept ridicule.
Keillor is so totally not sincere and unironic. He's simultaneously condescending, just very slightly, to the people who are the imagined subjects of his cutsie little stories about how wholesome and innocent they are, and to the audience who buys into the cutsie wholesome innocence. It's manufactured puppet-show nostalgia for an imagined era of pure whitebread America that never fucking existed except in the Stepford imaginations of those who are too fucking comfortable by half and firmly convinced of their superiority, part of which consists in their perpetually irritating performance of false modesty. It's fake and cheap and completely devoid of any interest in the actual lives of real people; it rests on a stultifying sense of normalcy that offends every cell in my body; and it presumes that both its characters and its listeners are complete nitwits who enjoy the soothing sensory deprivation of a world without edges, conflict, new ideas, or strong emotions of any kind.
Hoo-wee. I think neither B nor JE has actually listened very hard or for very long to GK's monologues, many of which document genuine, complex human dramas, relations, and emotions. Yes, there's comic relief, but if you think it's Leave it to Beaver, you aren't paying attention.
That's a powerful indictment, B, just not of A Prairie Home Companion.
I've listened to that crap more than I care to admit to. They *name* human complexity, but they talk about it as if it were a puppet show. It's appalling.
So what you're saying is that you feel strongly about this.
I gotta say I don't agree. His shtick reads to me like mocking, in an affectionate insidery kind of way, people of a class/social group that makes a point of being in denial about the existence of anything outside their conception of normalcy. I get that the denial's offensive, but Kellior didn't make the denial, he's reporting its existence (and playing along with it, of course).
174: If it indicts me, so be it. I chose my pseud for a reason.
B, you are so bs-ing us. That's not what the show is like at all, and now I don't believe you've ever actually listened to it.
If it indicts me
That's not what I meant. I meant that your target is ill-chosen.
His shtick reads to me like mocking, in an affectionate insidery kind of way, people of a class/social group that makes a point of being in denial about the existence of anything outside their conception of normalcy. I get that the denial's offensive, but Kellior didn't make the denial, he's reporting its existence (and playing along with it, of course).
Yeah, that seems right.
mocking, in an affectionate insidery kind of way, people of a class/social group that makes a point of being in denial about the existence of anything outside their conception of normalcy
Exactly. He's condescending to the people he talks about, and they (who are, after all, his creations) are condescending towards everyone else. It's like a fucking kline bottle full of condescension. Yuck.
Luckily Mr. B. has some more domestic crap I have to deal with, so you'll be spared the rest of my frothing on the subject.
Erm, making fun of people is automatically offensive? That's not an indictment of GK, you've just stated an opposition to comedy generally. And the people he describes aren't purely his own invention -- they're a recognizable caricature of something in the real world.
If it's the "stultifying sense of normalcy that offends every cell in my body" that really turns you off, I actually kind of get that. There's a streak of genuine cultural conservatism to Keillor (love of God, family, country; desire for God, family, country to be worth that love).
But I would also say, he's got a strong contrary streak, love of the weird, the one-off, and the inexplicable, and that the conflict between these two elements of his character makes him more interesting to me than he obviously is to you.
Erm, making fun of people is automatically offensive? That's not an indictment of GK, you've just stated an opposition to comedy generally.
What are you, new here? B hates fun.
Aw, jeez. I compose a nice, olive-branchy comment, and B goes away.
Yes to 183. I don't think he's condescending to his subjects, I think he's mocking them in a sincerely affectionate way.
From my point of view, PHC is a good thing because it describes local small town life in a way which doesn't either a.) recruit it into the Moral Majority or b.) go on and on about how deprived and small-minded and tacky and boring and lacking in taste the people here are.
My late mother's church council has two left-liberals, two or three Pat Robertson clones, and some moderates. The pastor was much closer to the liberals.
I guess I find mocking inherently condescending; it connotes contempt. As opposed to teasing, which is playful.
Anyway, fine, you guys don't recognize the thing that bugs me. It honest to god isn't the cultural conservatism; I can totally respect sincerity on those issues. It's that he seems fake. It comes off to me as someone who's mouthing culturally conservative platitudes but fails to really respect the actual feelings behind them--one of which is that mocking people who are sincerely good-hearted (or whatever) is kind of obnoxious. One has the feeling that he's speaking above the heads of his characters, and knows it, but thinks that because he's doing so fondly, it's somehow okay. There's something about that that really offends me.
But b, his characters are a stand-in for his audience, which gets it, and loves it.
189: I know that that's the theory. But I think that most of the people here (for instance) are not, in fact, the characters, yes?
And yeah, I also know people who are in fact small-town Minnesotan types who really enjoy PHC. It boggles my mind, and I can't help feeling that they're sort of being played. But even if not, there's just a difference between laughing at *oneself* and laughing at someone else, and in the sense that PHC is a national phenomenon (and GK eats that up), it's sort of like we're all being invited to laugh at others, and it just skeeves me.
Right. I may be wrong because I don't know small-town Minnesotans, but I do know stiff-apparently-emotionless-WASPY-types, and I can't imagine that he's speaking over the heads of his characters. I think his characters fully understand his mockery, and are happy with being the way they are despite the fact that the family members with an ironic streak make fun of them at Thanksgiving.
I guess I'm saying that I don't know that PHC is an accurate caricature of small-town Minnesota, but to the extent it is, I'll bet you that small-town Minnesotans listen to it and think it's funny, knowing that it's about them.
Real small-town Minnesotans are one thing; his characters are another. As you said, they're cariacatures--and part of the cariacature is always that they're sort of earnest and also kinda stupid.
But even if not, there's just a difference between laughing at *oneself* and laughing at someone else,
May I think Woody Allen (old stuff) is funny, or do I have to not watch it because I'm a gentile? Do I get to listen to PHC because (even though they're not Minnesotan) my aunt would fit right in? Is it wrong for my father to make fun of her for her straightfaced sincerity because he isn't her, or is it okay because he's her brother? If the latter, can I laugh at her affectionately too, and by extension the PHC characters, or is niece not a close enough relationship?
And I'll quit the rhetorical questions now. But seriously, if something's funny to the butt of the joke, I do think the joke is okay for any audience unless it's being taken in a radically different way.
I haven't listened to NPR long enough to pretend to like someone from the past more than the people there now, so I'll just have to skip that ride.
I really like TAL, but only when it's not got me by the throat demanding I be depressed by its subject matter. It does odd, ironic and funny very well, but the depressing shit has got to go. As for Ira, I love to listen to him. I could listen to him all day.
The NPR personality I wish I could watch choke to death on her own liver is Diane Rehm. Yeeeeeeeks. I hate her. I hate her so much.
My love for Prairie Home Companion is hard to describe or quantify. Fuck, I even loved the movie. GK is a great storyteller. He reminds me of sitting around listening to my grandmother and her sisters tell stories of their youth. I guess that means I grew up in a white-bread America la-la land that never existed, some alternate reality from the one occupied by freaks like B who hate their freaky-freak Mirror, Mirror versions of GK. I'd say more but my interdimensional window is about to clo
I was never a fan of the show, and hardly ever listened, but my step-father was a fan, and from listening with him a few times I can recall very clearly a story about the Tollefson boy, from Lake Woebegone, who is off to college. He is acutely embarrassed about his hick relatives, and desperately wishing that he could be more glamorous (like the Flambeaux family, whom I believe I have mentioned here before), and so as much as you are invited to mock his hick relatives along with him, ultimately it is turned on its head because there is a sense of recognition and embarrassment about youth itself, and how silly its pretensions are, which makes you appreciate the reality/eccentricity/love of the small town family. Which was entirely recognizable to me, at least, substituting blue collar Queens for small town Minnesota. Pretty universal sort of stuff, really.
Just to give a specific example.
My beef PHC is that I don't think it's funny. It's too corny. And it always seems to be on when I want to hear the news.
I will say this, though: I've only read two things Keillor's written, and they were both great. 1) His take-down of Norm Coleman in Salon; and 2) His take-down of Henri-Bernard Levy.
1.) TAL has done some excellent political shows. They did one on how Al Gore got taken down by teh media machien that was great, and I heard that longe before I'd ever heard of the Daily Howler. Great pieces on mandatory minimum sentences and the War on Terror. One had a really good explanation of the FISA court.
2.) Tom Ashbrook is not nearly as bad as Dick Gordon who took over the Connection after WBUR fired Chris Lydon. Dick Gordon was fired just after Christo (the GM who fired Lydon) was pushed out for financial improprieties. John Hockenberry is subbing this week.
3.) mcmc--of course Ly/don gets a lot of help (don't they all?), though he does write pretty well. Ly/don wouldn't work without Ma/ry Mc/Gr/ath.
4.) I agree that Open Source is spotty. It isn't nearly as good as the Connection was at its best. I think that a really strong internet presence coupled with a regular radio show would work better. The old show was a lot more open, because the callers were really good and often knew more than the official guests. A caller on the lien can talk back in a way that a blog commenter can't. A lot of people criticize Ly/don for interrupting his guests and having a big ego. He did and does interrupt his guests, but he often let his callers talk without interrupting them in a way that Talk of the Nation never does. The new show is not as good as the old one was. I do appreciate the fact that Lydon makes no bones about the fact that he think George W. Bush sucks.
What drives me nuts about Tom Ashbrook is that he repeats the full first and last name of his guests every time he addresses a question to them. Yes, it's helpful for those just tuning in, but it makes me furious.
The real end of discussion is not facts, but citations. Nevertheless, I feel compelled to cite this, and to urge your attention especially to the portion that discusses the following.
3. You have subjected me to endless, boring talk about weather, regularity, back problems, and whether something happened in 1938 or 1939....
4. You have taught me to worship a god who is exactly like you, who shares your thinking exactly, who is going to slap me one if I don't straighten out fast....
16. You have provided me with poor male role models... men who clung to tiny grudges for decades and were devoted to vanity, horsefeathers, small potatoes—not travel but the rites of trunk-loading and map-reading and gas mileage; not faith but the Building Committee; not love but supper....
29. You taught me not to be "unusual" for fear of what the neighbors would say.... We knew they'd talk, because we always talked about them....
75. I wasted years in diametrical opposition, thinking you were completely mistaken, and wound up living a life based more on yours than if I'd stayed home....
So tell us, Dr. Xenophon Cadwallader, is global warming real? Is it dangerous? Will our city sink into the sea, and if so when?
Well Tom--
Some scientists contend that it's a big false alarm. Dr. Xenophon Cadwallader, what do you say to them? Are their really more hurricanes? What about el Nino?
Well Tom, I--
We're talking with Dr. Xenophon Cadwallader about global warming. Is this the end of the world as we know it? More after the break. Let us know what you think!