Re: There's No Such Thing As A Non-Sectarian Prayer

1

Do we have anyone who wants to defend the majority opinion in Marsh v. Chambers (opening sessions of the legislature with a prayer)? Ideal, I'm looking at you, but I'd be happy to talk with anyone else about it.

I know there are cases closer to the actual topic of the post, but I think this is a nice one for discussion.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 8:46 AM
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Weird name on the guy, considering: Gary Christenot.

He's an example of a kind I've become aware of, whose thought processes are very comprehensible to me, and who uses words to mean the same things I do, yet who is nonetheless self-described as a completely convinced conservative Christian. Such people are actually more challenging to think about — even if I wish they were more representative at least in the sense of setting the tone of debates — then the numerous people whose thought precesses are clearly alien.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 8:51 AM
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Why not try getting into the prayer loop? Were the Christian clergy ostracized from that loop before asking for entrance? With a little tolerance and appreciation for other culture why can't we get along? I think there are answers here other than not attending the games...


Posted by: Cash Money | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 8:54 AM
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This would not be such a problem if there were no state-run public schools. Solution?

Also, the problem is that a great many evangelicals really do believe that public schools are teaching our kids the "religion" of "secular humanism"; and that the "Founding Fathers" (does my hatred of that phrase make me unamerican?) really intended this to be a "Christian nation". As long as you have a whole lot of people believing that sort of thing, this problem will be damn near intractable.

Although I admit that I myself have always been a little bit seduced by the "Congress shall make no law..." arguments. Meaning, I have comparatively little problem with what private people do or do not do, even if those people are tangentially related to the state (and could thereby be characterized as "state actors"), so long as there isn't some law compelling or forbidding religious expression. In other words, if the coach of the football team wants his team to pray before the games, I may think it's silly but I'm unlikely to get extremely worked up about it, any more than I am over the fact that some coaches of professional teams demand the same sorts of pre-game prayer-huddles. I am sympathetic to those who are more agitated by this sort of thing, though.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:06 AM
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This would not be such a problem if there were no state-run public schools.

Also, you wouldn't stub your toe so often if you amputated your foot.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:10 AM
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I think there are answers here other than not attending the games...

The answer is not to have the prayer before the game.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:11 AM
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I am sympathetic to those who are more agitated by this sort of thing, though.

Count me among the agitated. I currently live somewhere where, as I may have mentioned, public art was destroyed because some people felt it represented a non-Christian religion. I'm imagining some hypothetical kid of mine going out for the football team, and not participating in the prayer because he's Jewish, and it doesn't end well.


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:12 AM
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6 is right, but i can't help not understanding, for real -- what was so hard for him about sitting through a buddhist prayer? can there be a more non-invasive, non-proselytizing, non-pushy-to-those-who-believe-otherwise religion than buddhism? i'm (obviously) a secular agnostic person, and i just don't get the thought process of "i can't just sit here quietly while the buddhist prayer goes on." i mean, nobody asked him to convert. so why can't he have the experience of how other religions do things - why is that so threatening to his faith? can somebody explain it?


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:18 AM
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Don't worry Weiner, I'm sure if you stay in Lubbock long enough to have an adolescent son, you will have converted. Or at least your hott Evangelical wife will insist that your offspring be reared in her faith.


Posted by: Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:18 AM
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8: He explained. It's not that it's threatening; it's that pointed non-participation sends a hostile message that he didn't want to convey.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:19 AM
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the problem is that a great many evangelicals really do believe that public schools are teaching our kids the "religion" of "secular humanism"

A great many evangelicals also really do believe that the earth is 10,000 years old. I've reached the point where I really don't care what a great many evangelicals believe, because they believe a great heaping pile of goddamned stupidities. While you're correct that it's a problem, it's their problem to overcome, not ours to accomodate.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:21 AM
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to supplement my 8: *the fact of it* being a buddhist prayer is what bothered him, not any consequences in how the other people at the game would treat him for not being buddhist. (after all, that's the problem in Weiner's 7 -- how evangelical christians in his area treat those who disagree or have another faith -- not the effect of a non-evangelical-christian simply being present during a christian prayer).

as long as no one is being forced to convert or do symbolic acts they do not wish to do, what is the problem for a believer in being exposed to or knowing something about religion other than his/her own??


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:23 AM
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10 really?
non-participation means just sitting there. i've spent lots of time in synagogues and catholic churches, and nobody has ever thought i was being hostile because i don't go up for communion, and i don't volunteer to read the torah on saturdays.

i can sympathize with the feeling of being excluded because you realize for once in your life you're not the majority group there, but i don't think this is a sufficient explanation of why a christian can't learn about or observe or be present during the prayer session of another religion.

thomas merton didn't feel this way.


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:26 AM
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While you're correct that it's a problem, it's their problem to overcome, not ours to accomodate.

I agree in theory Apo, but this sounds like it was written by someone in a position of great power, who can bend all opposition to his will, which I'm sure you realize is simply not the case for a secularist in some parts of this country.



Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:26 AM
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sounds like it was written by someone in a position of great power, who can bend all opposition to his will

They don't call me the hero for nothin', Brock.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:29 AM
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(That is to say, I usually have to pay people to call me the hero.)


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:29 AM
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16: That reminds me, I'm still waiting for that check you said was in the mail.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:33 AM
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13- I have a suspicion that a lot of people in this country are Christian because it's the majority religion. People want to belong. When they're suddenly confronted with a situation where they are not in the majority, it casts doubt on one of their reasons for having that faith- I don't know if that's the case with this guy, and I'm sure most people wouldn't admit it if you asked them.


Posted by: SP | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:36 AM
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8: He explained. It's not that it's threatening; it's that pointed non-participation sends a hostile message that he didn't want to convey.

I agree with mmf, this guy is being very oversensitive. I'm sure his friends and students are more offended or confused by his refusal to go to a communal football game than they ever would be by his non-participation in the prayer. I know that I've been at very Christian events in the past (Catholic funerals, Evangelical baptizings, etc.) with no problem, and it's been the same with Buddhist temples that I've visited. So long as you're respectful, very few decent people will care if you're praying.


Posted by: JAC | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:38 AM
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There's No Such Thing As A Non-Sectarian Prayer

Brennan: More fundamentally, however, any practice of legislative prayer, even if it might look "nonsectarian" to nine Justices of the Supreme Court, will inevitably and continuously involve the State in one or another religious debate. Prayer is serious business - serious theological business - and it is not a mere "acknowledgment of beliefs widely held among the people of this country" for the State to immerse itself in that business. Some religious individuals or groups find it theologically problematic to engage in joint religious exercises predominantly influenced by faiths not their own. Some might object even to the attempt to fashion a "non-sectarian" prayer. Some would find it impossible to participate in any "prayer opportunity," ante, at 794, marked by Trinitarian references. Some would find a prayer not invoking the name of Christ to represent a flawed view of the relationship between human beings and God. Some might find any petitionary prayer to be improper. Some might find any prayer that lacked a petitionary element to be deficient. Some might be troubled by what they consider shallow public prayer, or nonspontaneous prayer, or prayer without adequate spiritual preparation or concentration. Some might, of course, have theological objections to any prayer sponsored by an organ of government. Some might object on theological grounds to the level of political neutrality generally expected of government-sponsored invocational prayer. And some might object on theological grounds to the Court's requirement, ante, at 794, that prayer, even though religious, not be proselytizing. Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 819-821 (1983) (Brennan, J. dissenting) (Footnotes and page numbers omiteed).

There's also a Jed Bartlet quote on point, but I think it might mar the seriousness of this comment.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:47 AM
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It was an interesting letter, although every time I read the phrase "Judeo-Christian" I kind of want to claw my eyes out.

And yes, I'm weirded out by the idea that standing quietly during the Buddhist prayer wasn't an option for him. I've lost track of the number of times I've stood quietly for a prayer I didn't believe it. Needing to make a fuss over it seems adolescent.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:49 AM
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Here's the part where he seems particularly extreme:

Yet when placed in a setting where the majority culture proved hostile to my faith and beliefs, I became paralyzed with indecision and could not act decisively to defend and proclaim my own beliefs.

Unless the football game was occurring during the annual Buddhist Let's Burn Jesus week (which I doubt, as everyone knows that's held in April. They serve cheesecake. It's awesome.), no one was being hostile to his beliefs. They just didn't care about his beliefs and were indulging their own. Admittedly there's a sort of background hostility you can feel as a clear minority, but that's pretty ignorable if it's clear that no one actually cares about your non-participation. Also, who really needs to "defend and proclaim" their own beliefs at all times? There's a word for people who do that and it's "sanctimonious pricks", whether they're atheist, Buddhist, Christian, or Marxist.

It's really helpful to learn how to chill out and actually enjoy the feeling of being in a crowd that's all bound by something they feel powerfully, even if it's a belief foreign to you.


Posted by: JAC | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:49 AM
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8, 12, 19, 22: What is gained by having a religious ceremony of any sort at a public school football game? The title of this post sums up the point very succinctly. To the extent that any prayer or ceremony expresses any tenet you could call a belief, it is dividing the participants into those who accept those beliefs and those who do not. What is gained by this?

19: I know that I've been at very Christian events in the past (Catholic funerals, Evangelical baptizings, etc.) with no problem, and it's been the same with Buddhist temples that I've visited.

But in each of these cases, you knew beforehand that you were going to a religious ceremony, holy place, or event. Religion is the raison d'Ítre of the examples you cited. No one could reasonably go to a funeral and not expect to have religion be brought into it. That is not the case with a public school football game, or anything else associated with public (government-sponsored) education. If this were an interfaith event or some other function specifically intended to educate people about religious diversity, I'm all for it. In that case, people would know what they were in for and what to expect. But except for those who elevate sports fandom to the level of religion, there is nothing about a football game that requires that we tack a religious ceremony onto it.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:58 AM
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20: That's a really, really well-written dissent at the end. I particularly love that he quoted Democracy in America so effectively. Are most of the justices who write decisions that good?


Posted by: JAC | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:58 AM
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In 20, I meant to write "omitted", not "omiteed".

24: I don't want to say that Brennan is, in terms of rhetorical effectiveness, in a class by himself, but if it's false it's not far from true.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:02 AM
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23: No doubt, I agree that the prayer should be dropped altogether at a public event. I agree that, to some extent, it's a hostile act against those of other beliefs.

I also think this guy was overreacting, and should learn to chill out about public expressions of other religions. At the very least, he should acknowledge the problems with all public prayer, not just be scared because "Christian clergy were never included" so he "felt instantly ostracized and viewed myself as a foreigner in my own land". After all, we all know that his own land of America could never be Buddhist!


Posted by: JAC | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:03 AM
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27

What JAC said.


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:05 AM
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28

At the very least, he should acknowledge the problems with all public prayer

Actually, if you read the entirety of his letter, you will find he does exactly this. From his concluding paragraph:

I would say in love to my Christian brothers and sisters, before you yearn for the imposition of prayer and similar rituals in your public schools, you might consider attending a football game at Wahiawa High School. Because unless you're ready to endure the unwilling exposure of yourself and your children to those beliefs and practices that your own faith forswears, you have no right to insist that others sit in silence and complicity while you do the same to them.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:07 AM
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29

Yeah, that was why I linked him approvingly.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:14 AM
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28: Whoops, I'm an idiot, I did not realize there was more to the letter (so much more). You're entirely right, he is clearly against any sort of public prayer, Christian or otherwise. I'm glad he's willing to add that kind of voice to the debate, since it's too easily characterized as whiney atheists against self-centered Christians.

I still feel he's reacting a bit too strongly to "pagan" religions, but he just has a different sort of connection to his faith than I'm used to.


Posted by: JAC | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:18 AM
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31

Timothy Burke just wrote a nice post related to all this.


Posted by: Chris | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:21 AM
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29 -- But you clearly called him an "evangelical Christian", thus implying that his viewpoint was somehow objectionable.


Posted by: Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:26 AM
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32: Again, from the letter itself:

Let me start by saying I am an evangelical Christian


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:29 AM
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34

I think he feels that participating in the prayer would be against his religion, that standing during the prayer would be participating (because that's what the people who were actually praying were doing) and that sitting down (would be disrespectful. I'd guess it can be uncomfortable to be the only person sitting when everyone around you is standing; it might be an interesting exercise to try this during the national anthem sometime. OTOH, I don't know how seriously to take the concerns that the Japanese hosts and neighbors would take sitting down as disrespectful; it seems a bit Orientalizing but he's spent more time around ethnic Japanese people than I have, he may be right.

I think some of the letter is a bit over the top in this way, surely Christians don't have to categorically avoid Shinto prayers, but he gets to the right place so yay him. Maybe the way a somewhat hypersensitive Christian feels about being in the minority is akin to the way members of minority religions feel about being in a pervasive national Christian culture. That is, given the pervasiveness of Christianity in the USA, maybe you have to heighten the Christian's sensibility a bit to get to the same place.


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:31 AM
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For purposes of full disclosure and intellectual honesty, I should probabably mention that I am a practicing Buddhist. One on one, I am happy to tell people about my Buddhist beliefs and encourage them to adopt those beliefs as their own. But I don't believe it is right for adherents of any faith, whether it be the faith of the majority or the minority, to take a captive audience gathered for a non-religious purpose and to say to them, "Before we get started, let's all bow our heads in respect for my religious beliefs."


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:49 AM
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I am a practicing Buddhist.

Now you're an admitted/unapologetic/flagrant Buddhist.


Posted by: standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:52 AM
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w/d, 20 is a link to a whole fucking episode. Can you tell us the quote in a different comment?


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:58 AM
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flagrant Buddhist

You misspelled "fragrant." It's because of all the incense.


Posted by: My Alter Ego | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:00 AM
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39

Hrm. I should edit the post, if it's not coming through that I like what this guy's saying.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:02 AM
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39 -- if that's in reaction to my 32, note that it was said very tongue-in-cheek (my own, not somebody else's). I think your post is fine.


Posted by: Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:05 AM
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A prayer for the dead:

Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to ensure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.


Posted by: Bradford DeLong | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:43 AM
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It's annoying to quote since it's in dialogue form. Finding every instance of "non-denominational" or "nondemoninational" in the link in 20 takes care of it.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:49 AM
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It's annoying to quote since it's in dialogue form. Finding every instance of "non-denominational" or "nondenominational" in the link in 20 takes care of it.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:49 AM
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44

41: Zelazny?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:50 AM
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RE: "Zelazny?"

Of course, _Creatures of Light and Darkness_.

How is the small windowless basement room in Kansas?


Posted by: Bradford DeLong | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 1:08 PM
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I'm curious about when the events described in the letter occurred. I'm guessing not within the last 20 years, at least. When I think of Wahiawa, I think of the sort of establishments that are commonly present outside military bases (Schofield Barracks, home of the 25th Infantry Division, is there), not Buddhist shrines.

Good letter nonetheless, but I'm highly suspicious of the "try attending a game in Wahiawa" line.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 1:10 PM
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The guy got to the right conclusion but it's a shame he didn't realize that watching someone else pray isn't exactly banned by Christianity. [gross generalization ahead] It seems to be an evangelical thing to have to defend the faith at all times; the Catholics, having shiny churches to look at, are better at just rolling their eyes and going to the game anyway and gossiping afterwards about the weird things going on. [/end]

Besides, 'Mary, Queen of Victory, pray for us', is the only one that works, anyway.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 1:19 PM
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this guy--

A disgrace. A man without a chest. A Christian in name only.

If he were truly an Evangelical Christian--if he had truly accepted Jesus into his life as the one and only savior of mankind-- then he would have done the right thing.

He would have killed all of the pagans. Or died trying.

Martyrdom is always acceptable in the eyes of the Lord, especially if you are fighting Baal-worshipers. Or their equivalents.

But this guy--well, it's no wonder that the West is losing.

In fact, I think it's pretty clear that if people like him allow Buddhist prayers at football games, then the terrorists have already won.


Posted by: kid bitzer | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 3:14 PM
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49

"Asiatic"?


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:03 PM
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50

You know, Orientals. The Yellow Peril.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:13 PM
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49: I'm glad someone else noticed that, too. The fuck?


Posted by: mrh | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:21 PM
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To be fair, it fits his tone.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 9:23 PM
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"Christian" s/b "self-described Christian." Pretty much everywhere.

When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. -- Matthew 6:5-6

Why do evangelicals hate the bible?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:32 PM
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I think all Christians are self-described.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:36 PM
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Actually, Catholics tend to stick with "Catholic," to distinguish themselves from the literalist evangelical rabble. The better sort of Catholics, at any rate.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:55 PM
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56

I know, and I've always found that weird.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 10:56 PM
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57

Well, when you're taught that religion involves humility, sacrifice and the contemplation of profound mysteries -- however much you walk the talk -- it's hard to find common ground with people who say things like "I'm saved" and content themselves with strictly literal interpretations of scripture.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:08 PM
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Sure, but from the outside all this shit looks crazy.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:13 PM
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49: You know, I should've mentioned that as a possible point against his sensitivity to Japanese customs.


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:15 PM
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Point taken, but there's crazy and there's batshit crazy. As someone who was raised Catholic, I think the appropriate response to the question "Have you accepted Christ as your personal savior?" is "Fuck you, clown."


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:19 PM
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Again, sure, but as someone who's neither Catholic nor evangelical (nor any other type of Christian), I don't think it seems any crazier than all that Catholic stuff. No offense intended, of course.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:24 PM
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Actually, Catholics tend to stick with "Catholic," to distinguish themselves from the literalist evangelical rabble.

Actually, the "literalist evangelical rabble" doesn't believe that Catholics are Christians, so they're frequently the ones making the distinction, not the Catholics.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:26 PM
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I think we can all agree that Catholics are not really Christians. Comity!


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:31 PM
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I might feel the same way if I hadn't been taught to view the world to some extent through a Catholic lens. It's a powerful thing, as most Catholics -- lapsed or otherwise -- can tell you. And on that note, I'm off. Good night.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:32 PM
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64 to 61.
62 & 63: Comity indeed. The Papists are fine with that.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:35 PM
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62 is, I think, the explanation for 56.

61: Metaphor, goddamnit. Metaphor. It's not that hard to understand.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:38 PM
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Metaphor, goddamnit. Metaphor.

I love my Catholics, but that doesn't really work as the whole answer, since part of being Catholic is believing, for example, that the blood and body of Christ are actually and not metaphorically present at Mass.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:42 PM
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No, that's part of the church's official doctrine. It's not part of being Catholic, unless you're some rigid-ass German ex-Nazi pope or something.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:47 PM
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I'm not even going to argue with that.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:51 PM
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I'm posting here to let you know that B just dropped dead of a heart attack.

Her last words were "send my love to everyone at Unfogged."


Posted by: b-Mr.B. | Link to this comment | 09- 6-06 11:54 PM
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Rigid-ass German ex-Nazi pope!
Rigid-ass German ex-Nazi pope!
Rigid-ass German ex-Nazi pope!


Posted by: standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:00 AM
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Too bad she couldn't get legit last rites.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:00 AM
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urk


Posted by: standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:01 AM
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Cottonpickenen Deutschespopen.


Posted by: ghost of standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:03 AM
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72: Don't be so superstitious, unbeliever.


Posted by: b-ghost bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:06 AM
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Can't sleep with all this heresy going on.

Metaphor, goddamnit. Metaphor.

Spoken like an Episcopalian. Can I fix you a martini?


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:37 AM
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I'd love one, but I'm a Catholic. Better make it a double.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:38 AM
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Can't sleep with all this heresy going on.

This comment made me imagine someone who had hooked up text to speech software to a regularly refreshing RSS feed of the unfogged comments, perhaps with different voices assigned to different regulars, so that it would be truly plausible that they were trying to sleep and couldn't because of distraction from the heresy.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:43 AM
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Can't sleep with all this heresy going on.

This comment made me imagine someone who had hooked up text to speech software to a regularly refreshing RSS feed of the unfogged comments, perhaps with different voices assigned to different regulars, so that it would be truly plausible that they were trying to sleep and couldn't because of distraction from the heresy.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 09- 7-06 12:55 AM
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