Re: In The Jeans?

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I've read, maybe on this site, that men who learn style "from the book" are more despicable than men with no style at all. Not sure about women. Looking for the link...


Posted by: Kreskin | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 8:48 AM
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Bam!


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 8:52 AM
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I am as unhandy as they come. Yet, simply by doing more tasks with the aid of a basic repair book, one can become more handy. 80% of success is just daring to do it, and being willing to accept that there is a chance that you will screw it up, and have to pay someone to do it after all. But that chance is lower than you think. Be bold, and powerful forces will come to your aid.

On getting more stylish. This is one of those topics where I fear one's perspective is inevitably gendered. For men, if you find yourself desiring to be too stylish, fear demonic possession, just like ogged says. If you are trying to upgrade from schlump, however, you can do ok by upgrading your formality of dress by one level, and buying clothes more frequently.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:09 AM
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Be bold, and powerful forces will come to your aid.

You really are a neocon, aren't you, baa?

Of course you can learn to be more stylish as an adult. But there isn't some magic way of jumping various steps and going directly to Teh Stylish. It's unlikely that you'll ever be super-stylin' if you're starting as an adult, because, you know, you're an adult, and who the fuck cares that much? So, in my experience, people upgrade to "not actively painful to contemplate" and stop. Which is how it should be.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:14 AM
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yeah, this really is a gendered issue. I think there are many more levels for women's fashionableness, whereas men are pegged at schlumpy/at least he's not doing anything actively wrong/trying too hard/gay. the thing is, pace ogged's linkee, women really are crazy about a sharp dressed man. I used to know a guy in the mission in SF who wore beautifully tailored vintage suits. and hats. and had a walking stick. and SPATS1!! spats. that was bad-ass. his little barstool in the 500 club was abuzz with the ladeez. my brother is a very snappy dresser. of course, I'm still trying to get husband x to put on this really cute print shirt i got him about a fucking year ago. like a dress shirt, but in a print that looks like muted silkscreen floral 70s wallpaper. I feel I'm not selling this right, but it really is a nice shirt. I think guys should leave their fear of teh prissy behind and step it up a little. and wear ascots sometimes! my great-uncle used to wear ascots and a big diamond stick pin that was originally a victorian ladies hat pin. of course, he also cultivated old-fashioned roses and kept a stable of boys in his vacation house in crete, so maybe that's not relevant.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:18 AM
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"80% of success is just daring to do it"

Exactly. Keep decent records, but just grab the screwdriver and crescent wrench and have fun. I have replaced motors on dishwasher and refrigerator;replaced the impellors...these are the drain pumps, they tend to get clogged with lil bits of plastic...on dishwashers multiple times; installed garbage disposals, including pipefitting;installed a remote garage door opener;once tore down the clotheswasher completely and rebuilt it. Completely reducted the air conditioning. Etc.

An important aspect of professional help is the tools:spending 50 bucks for pipe wrenches I will only use one or twice vs paying 100 bucks for a plumber.

Electricity doesn't really scare me. But there are regulatory issues that can affect the resale value of your house that make hiring out better.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:27 AM
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I think guys should leave their fear of teh prissy behind and step it up a little.

I've tried this several times in my life, and I don't think I ever succeeded. Of course, I never had a woman advising me, so that might have been the problem.

The only bold fashion move I've managed to pull off successfully (I think) is wearing a hat. I often get compliments on it, but who knows what people are saying behind my back.


Posted by: Zadfrack | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:33 AM
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I'm going to change the plug on my dryer today. It looks easy but wish me luck.


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:33 AM
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Communism was a bad thing on the whole, but their suppression of style was a good thing. I confess that in my younger days I allowed my hatred of fashion to lead me down an evil path, but I still think that my motive was a good one. (Sure, I also wanted to put an end to poverty, war, and oppression, but hatred of fashion was my bottom line.)

Since my mother died, my sidters have been buying me my shirts with collars. I buy my own T-shirts, though.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:36 AM
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About 50% of the time I manage to avoid total schlump-looking, which is definitely an upgrade from as little as two years ago, but I'm not sure how I did this aside from going to more clothing stores.

I have always been pretty judgmental about how other people dress.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:38 AM
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but who knows what people are saying behind my back.

I know. But the joy of the modern world is that you can always move to a new town, city, or state.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:39 AM
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Alameida's guy in the mission sounds so awesome. Spats!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:40 AM
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in 5, "not relevant" s/b "not relevant to our straight readers who don't want to look gay." gay readers; straight readers who don't give a fuck--please start rocking the ascots. pleaspleaseplase. strictly speaking, my great-uncle was bi, anyway.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:40 AM
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They're like hats for your shoes!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:40 AM
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I used to know a guy in the mission in SF who wore beautifully tailored vintage suits. and hats. and had a walking stick.* and SPATS

Used to be a guy at Glasgow when I was an undergrad who used to have a little goatee beard, a waxed and curled moustache and wore beautiful tailored vintage tweed three-piece suits. Totally rockin' the whole Bloomsbury-set look.

It worked on him -- he was a working class Glasgow guy in his early 20s -- whereas on an Oxford undergrad it would just scream wanker.

* I'd love to carry a walking stick. You unleash some savage whoop-ass on people who fuck with you when carrying one of them.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:41 AM
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I have a walking stick but I've only actually walked around with it a few times (because I'm not a total wanker), though the last time I did so (about a year ago) some dude told me it was cool.

I bought it for $3 at a store on 53rd in Hyde Park 6 years ago.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:45 AM
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my stepfather used to have a walking stick with a sword inside it, which was cool, although he did tend to get drunk and threaten to kill people with it. not us, I mean, like, strangers or party guests.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:45 AM
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It's hard to learn style as if it were an academic subject, because so much of style is just sensing what looks good and feeling when to break the rules. Professional & put-together is easy, but looking fashionable is much harder.

Especially fabrics. Trying to look at wedding dresses online when you don't know what the fabric names correspond to is difficult.

Men: why do you never throw out old, beholéd T-shirts? Is there a shortage of cotton crew necks I should know about?

On handyperson skillz, the hardest thing is not having the tools and the second hardest thing is not worrying about breaking your own stuff. Cultivate first the mindset that it's already broken and not working, and it's much easier to take things apart. (This mindset helps especially with computers.)


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:48 AM
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Those are, unfortunately, illegal in California, but I think you can have one in Oregon.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:48 AM
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There are entire web-sites dedicated to reprinting Victorian and Edwardian manuals designed to teach gentleman how to defend themselves against street-ruffians using their evening cane. The illustrations all have this great 'Fantomas'/'Sherlock Holmes' vibe.

The illustrations here, for example, are brilliant:

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_vigny_0500.htm


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:49 AM
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re: 16 and 19

Yeah, a friend of a friend used to have a sword cane. He was, unfortunately, a wanker.

In the UK, at least, the police tend to frown on people who run disrespectful blaggards through with 3ft of steel.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:51 AM
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The assailant assailed!


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:54 AM
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I have a really neat-looking sword cane I sort of ended up with by accident, but I've never actually used it because I'm terrified of sharp instruments and the skull on the top makes it look like it's there to kill random dogs in the street.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:56 AM
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re: 23

A few months of fencing lessons and some canne classes and you're sorted. That way, if you have to kill dogs in the street, you can despatch them with panache. Curly moustache optional.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:00 AM
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The curly moustache is in no way optional.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:03 AM
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re: 25

Damn.

Actually, when I discovered this http://www.gentlemans-shop.com/acatalog/taylors-moustache-wax.html a while back, I was tempted to grow a moustache for no other reason than to buy the product.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:09 AM
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Coup de main! Coup de grace!


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:10 AM
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I feel that in order to make a skull-headed sword cane really work, I'd need not only the curly mustache but a Van Dyke and a nineteenth century evening suit.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:10 AM
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re: 28

And this is a problem, how?


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:12 AM
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Megan's style problem resolved: she should grow a curly moustache, don a man's hat, and consider the purchase of a frock coat.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:15 AM
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Come on, Alameida, write a novel. You can be the Truman Capote of this millenium.

Critics do not recognize the "My Weird Relatives" book as a genre, but they should. (Maybe you even have a weird family member you can suggest this genre to.)

You may have to tone some people down for the sake of plausibility. My projected "Weird people in low-rent neighborhoods" book would include a 45-year-old midget stoner American third cousin of a major Israeli political figure who (the stoner) works 10 hours a week at a hotdog stand (and finds that hard), and spends the rest of his time fishing coins out of public fountains and wishing wells. A real person, but too strange for fiction.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:16 AM
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re: 30

Loads of opportunities for Noel Coward drawing-room farce action there, too. Imagine the amusing blog posts!



Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:17 AM
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Skinheads in my old neighborhood carried sturdy metal canes. The first time I saw it I felt sorry for the young crippled guy, but then I noticed that he was walking normally.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:18 AM
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I think guys should leave their fear of teh prissy behind and step it up a little.

Dressing for both sexes is a balance of dressing for the opposite sex, for same-sex peers, and your idea of yourself. No one is going to be attractive if he's thinking of himself as prissy, whatever he may look to others.


Posted by: i don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:32 AM
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The stylishness advice I was giving wasn't actually my own -- it's roughly what Dr. Oops tells me on the occasions where she attempts to get me dressed in a vaguely civilized fashion.

On the 'being handy' front, while I'm not particularly, my limited experience indicates that baa, Cala, and bob are right -- you just need to dive in. Royally screwing things up is always a possibility, but if you do that, then you can go ahead and call in a pro. And usually you won't if you're careful and sensible -- fixing stuff isn't rocket science. (If you don't do it a lot, you'll be slow and foolish-feeling while you work, but that doesn't mean you won't be able to get stuff done.

And I am all for encouraging the straight male fop. One of my closest high-school friends was one such, and his clothes were great: I remember walking all over the city with him because he was in urgent need of monk-strap shoes (if I remember the term correctly). Sadly, we've lost touch, and the last time I saw him he seemed to have abandoned his foppishness.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:33 AM
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yeah. carrying a cane -- not so hot. camp value only.

it is true that women do fall for snappy dressers. and men get such great stuff - i often wish i could wear them, esp. men's SHOES, esp. esp. men's TENNIS SHOES. alas, have got little feet.

nobody has given megan advice. this is probably because it is hard to give general advice vs. what would be right for one person.

my two cents. things improved for me a lot once i realized i shouldn't wear tight clothes, esp. jeans, even though i can pull it off figure-wise. just because you can doesn't mean you should. it's hotter/more flattering to have a little reserve, and when you ARE in the mood for something more form-fitting it will have that much more oomph. also, it's a mistake to match colors too much by going for opposites, e.g. black and white. and, sadly, this new fashion for layered things, which comes on top of the still operative trend for dopey boleros and boots + formal shorts, spells danger for smaller ppl because it cuts you up too much. so, caution. but that said, one of the things i hate in fashion is too much caution and conservatism. that's what is wrong with the otherwise funny "go fug yourself" website. fashion is not supposed to be boring! if you're actually going to pay some attention to it, have some fun.


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:34 AM
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re: 35

I give you, the monkstrap shoe

http://www.duckerandson.co.uk/details.php?sid=DS45043fb1bbfea&itemid=29

http://www.duckerandson.co.uk/details.php?sid=DS45043fb1bbfea&itemid=46


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:40 AM
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That's them. There were also Panama hats, white linen trousers (not in an outfit with the monkstrap shoes), pocket squares, and lots of other general bizarreness. He was really cool.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:44 AM
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Be bold, and powerful forces will come to your aid.

I am pleased by your expansion of the neocon canon, Timbot.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:49 AM
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Also, I'd second the strong demand for Alameida's novel. Or just her recommendation list of genre fiction.


Posted by: baa | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:52 AM
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I had to consciously figure out how to dress, b/c my mom was both completely unskilled in that area and defensively insistent that trying was a betrayal of the feminist cause. What I did was surreptitiously (because I was embarrassed about actually caring) do things like go browse (but never check out) the library books on "find your color season" and "find your personal style," or pretend to casually flip through magazines at the hairdressers and so on. I imagine the internet makes this kind of thing much easier.

Anyway, yeah, the advice just boils down to taking a good hard look at which clothes you own that look best on you, which you feel comfortable in, which colors flatter your skin tone, what outfits get compliments, and then pare down the stuff that's maybe fashionable but just is not you. Then stick with a basic kind of style and keep it updated with mild variations. So yeah, basically I have a lot of wide-legged Katherine Hepburn type pants in taupes and camels and I never buy tapered leg stuff, and I hover somewhere between tailored and comfy casual. The boot-cut jean works for me, but the narrow ankle, no. Etc. Your basic sheath dress pretty much seems to work from season to season. And like when it's all flounces and ruffles and shit I don't buy stuff (except for this one crazy-ass black and white cotton sequined skirt I bought b/c it was cheap and amused me). And even though it took me a while to admit it, pastel pink actually works on me, and black usually doesn't unless it's softened up somehow, so I can't do the hard-edged urban look.

And then the other thing is, once you've figured out a "look," it's easy to maintain. Lots of brownish pants and skirts mean it's not hard to find a jacket that'll pair with most of 'em, and when you have a basic sense of what you own it's easy to keep in mind that the next time I see a camel-colored wool sweater, I need to replace the one that's getting a hole in it, and even though I completely love the look of that funky lemon-yellow jacket, it really is just not going to work with my wardrobe.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:05 AM
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Well, I can see that lots of people have given Megan awesome stylishness advice. Except they haven't. I consider myself to be quite stylish, but I haven't ever really considered why, so this is hard. I really think that at least 50% of "style" is actually not-clothes. So my first piece of advice is to pay up for a good haircut. I pay $56 for my haircuts (and that's not with the crazy highlights I get) and get them less frequently, like maybe every 4 months or so. See if you can get a cool stylist who will actually talk to you about styling. I thought my other stylists were doing that until I started going to this one, who was like "you're doing it all wrong." She even wrote some stuff down for me, and sent me away with some written directions for wearing it both curly and straight, and product directions for each. It was pretty sweet. Anyway, I could talk a lot about hair. Some hair colors just need to be dyed, or at least get a little kick. Just a few highlights in front pieces is quite in these days, and also just a little bit punk rock.

I'll skip makeup because even though I wear it, I can't bear telling other people to. It's just wrong. Honestly, though, I buy the cheapest makeup that is available--it's something I refuse to spend money on. But then, I'm 24 and probably not "thinking about my skin" or whatever, but fuck that.

Clothes: you gotta take a couple risks. And it's all about where you shop. I'm cheap, so I shop a lot at Old Navy, and pretty much everything there would probably look either okay or good, so you can't really go wrong (n.b. I just bought this coat there for fall and it is totally awesome). But if you want to spend more money, well there's that company trifecta--Gap and Banana Republic are good, although it would be easy to come out of those places with very boring buys. I hate Ann Taylor, but there are other people here who will sing there praises. Their clothes tend a little boring, but very "professional." Also, see if you can find any independent "hip" stores--I frequent this one in Chicago. I mostly go there to look around, though, get some ideas, and buy jewelry.

So let's have a jewelry tangent. Most people are way, way too conservative about jewelry. I have a very tall, elegant friend who has showed me the light in re: jewelry. Now, of course, some stuff is better subtle, i.e. diamonds, but I hate diamonds, so whatever. Check out some of the jewelry at this site for some cool stuff. I often, if I'm going for particularly stylish, will wear a relatively large piece of jewelry, but just one--earrings, necklace, or, if I'm wearing something short-sleeved or sleeveless, a bracelet. This kind of solves any "what jewelry goes together?" problem, cause you're only really wearing one thing (unless, like me, you wear a biggish necklace and then just wear little silver or zirconia studs or something). But yeah, for example, something like these possibly in a less obtrusive color if you're more shy, could really make something of an outfit. My elegant friend has a pair like that, except wood, that she wears with basically a white tank top and jeans, and looks awesome. But you don't have to spend a lot of money on jewelry. I've bought stuff that has been quite well-received from, like, Target. Again, though, pulling off good, interesting, arty jewelry is closely linked to having good hair.

Back to clothes. I think it's good to pick a few colors that you really like. Most of the stuff I buy is black, brown, pink, or various shades of green (including a lot of army-green), and nearly all of it goes together. I don't even buy that many pants, because I'm picky and I hate pant-shopping, so I basically wear everything with either 1) trusty jeans 2) professional-ish black pants (stretchy) or 3) knee-length black skirt. Two things: layering almost never goes out of style, and contrast can be good. As I've said, I own basically 3 pairs of bottoms, so that's always the "plain" while the top is more "interesting." Jewelry, same thing: some zones bare or with unobtrusive choices, some go bam! Makeup, same thing, i.e. lips or eyes, not both. And contrasting styles is good. My basic m.o. is that I tend to wear masculinish-things (like the jacket I linked) paired with feminine items, like something pink, or something like this. Actually, that piece in and of itself is a good example of my style, because it's a kind of army-green (masculine) but all frilly (feminine).

Now that I've written a fucking novel, I'll say that I really only started doing this stuff/thinking about this stuff in the past two or three years, when I realized that wearing all black all the time wasn't really that fun anymore, and that I should quit wearing my hair in the same boring braid every day.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:05 AM
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Okay, while I was writing, somet other people gave advice too, so good.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:06 AM
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And mmf! is right--even though I've advocated a fairly conservative approach (figure out a look and stick with it), one of the great advantages of doing that is that then you can occasionally pick up something that's just insanely cool and completely different from everything you own, and it'll look fabulous on you partly because it's such a departure from your usual look.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:13 AM
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Aah! "there" s/b "their" in third paragraph.

I'm so ashamed. I never thought it could happen to me.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:13 AM
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Also what M. Leblanc said re contrasts--mannish cut with femmy colors, or whatever.

But I disagree re. makeup. I spend money on stuff that goes directly on my skin, and since I wear very little and not all the time, it lasts. It is way overpriced and the cosmetics companies make a killing, but ime the expensive stuff really *is* better.

I also disagree re. Old Navy and the Gap and so on. BO-RING. Much better to poke around vintage stores or locally-owned boutique type places. Find a place that's owned by someone who designs and makes her own clothes--it's often surprisingly affordable to buy awesome stuff that way. Not as cheap as mass-produced, no, but way, way more good looking. Plus you can always buy jeans and tshirts and stuff at used or consignment stores for cheap, which makes it easier to spend $100-$200 on a jacket that no one else is going to have.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:18 AM
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Plus, pricey makeup, they'll take it back if it makes you break out or if you decide the color's wrong.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:20 AM
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1. The second "monkstrap" shoe referenced in #37 is hideous. Do not trust anyone who likes that shoe, in matters fashion or otherwise.

2. I am pleased by your expansion of the neocon canon, Timbot.

I'm not read at all in Goethe, but lay conceptions describe him as German, mystic, and having a pronouced tendency to favor drama over anything approaching realism. Is he really not already part of the neocon canon?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:23 AM
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I don't disagree that the expensive stuff is better, I just wouldn't know because I don't wear it, although I imagine someday I will.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:24 AM
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48.8 is correct.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:24 AM
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I hate diamonds, so whatever.

GOOD


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:26 AM
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Instead of going to dinner with Megan, B, why don't you two spend a day shopping?

And you know why San Francisco is considered decadent and un-American? Because the dude with the spats didn't get his head smashed every day. I'm merely noting a fact.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:31 AM
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52: Good idea!

Re spats and so forth. The sad fact about so many really nifty men's clothing items is that wearing them nowadays merely signals "I'm a pretentiouslly affected wanker." E.g., the cape.

I knew a guy in grad school who wore a deerstalker.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:33 AM
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Although once in a blue moon you meet a guy who can pull it off. But usually he's older.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:35 AM
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I'd advise Megan to do a little googling and find out where the local crafter "mafia" sell their designs—via consignment at thrift stores, usually, and increasingly online as well. In Austin the (original) craft mafia organized enough capital to open a lovely store called Parts and Labour. I'm very fond of clothing by dear birthday (and indeed can be spotted in her promotional spots). In addition to dresses and whatnot, she makes hand-sewn shirts for men (a rarity) that are the best.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:36 AM
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Because the dude with the spats didn't get his head smashed every day. I'm merely noting a fact.

That's not quite right, I think, because you're assuming facts that Ala didn't fill in. There's a pretty big stylin' exception for some ethnics: mostly African-Americans, and some varieties of Hispanic.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:36 AM
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Yeah: the thing about foppery is that it only works if you're good at it. Wearing a silly hat because you want to be different or unusual makes you an affected nitwit. Wearing a silly hat because you truly love it and think that it harmonizes in a subtle yet interesting fashion with the shape of your eyeglass frames, on the other hand, makes you a weirdo, but an excellent weirdo.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:36 AM
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Seriously, clear diamonds are, it seems only ever used in the most boring way imaginable (and colored diamonds, which, unlike clear diamonds, are actually less common than sand, are crazy expensive). It seems as if festooning some piece of crap with shiny! diamonds! is the uncreative jeweler's answer to every design problem, and, correlatively, that most of the interesting jewelry that I see makes either very sparing or no use of diamonds. (This could be because diamonds are, despite their extreme commonality, expensive, and most of what really catches my eye is made at small shops which might not have a lot of financial wherewithal.)

In conclusions, diamonds suck, and you should patronize your local interesting-jewelry-making jewelry person. There are good shops in Nauplio, the main city in Naxos, Xania, and next to Knesebeckstr. 11 in Berlin, though they may not be "local" to you.l


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:37 AM
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All these items fall into the general category of "Dr. Who clothes." Were it socially acceptable for me to dress like Tom Baker I'd do it every day.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:37 AM
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I have an excellent-weirdo hat that I bring out of the hatbox for special occasions. I'm trying to wear it for nonspecial occasions and feel pretty sharp wearing it, but it earns looks simply for not being a baseball cap.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:38 AM
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There's a pretty big stylin' exception for some ethnics: mostly African-Americans, and some varieties of Hispanic.

One of the things I miss about the South Side is all the men's hats that got worn, and only after a while did it occur to me that all the hat-wearers were black men, usually around or above middle age. White dudes so hatted would have looked silly. (EXCEPT for the awesome guy, Sawyer, who lived in my house who always wore a duster and some manner of hat (some specific manner, I just don't know the name), and, in his last year, could be seen occasionally practicing his whip technique on the Midway, and was generally instantly recognizable and locally famous. He was so cool! He is now married to a super-hot goth descendant of the guy who wrote "To the Virgins, to Make Much of Time", who was also pretty stylin' and cool.)

Although once in a blue moon you meet a guy who can pull it off. But usually he's older.

Old enough and you can do anything.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:43 AM
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Speaking of expensive skincare and makeup, B, did you know that Dr. Haushka is having a sale for the month of September. They have some very nice eyeshadows in addition to their skincare.At least all of the Whole Foods stores have it on sale. It's 20% off, and Dr. Haushka has never been on sale before. I'm not a huge fan, but I could get it for 20% off of that (36% off regular sticker) and would do so if I were.

Actually I've heard from some people who think that most of the stuff from Juice is better than Haushka, but Juice doesn't make make-up.


Posted by: Bostoniangirl | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:46 AM
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Old enough and you can do anything.

In twenty years I'll grow the beard, put on the cape and the spats, work the skull cane and be a supervillain.


Posted by: strasmangelo jones | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:47 AM
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Old enough and you can do anything.

Sadly, no. But most people do care less about what others will think of them as they get older (not me, but the ones who grow up).


Posted by: Idealist | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:47 AM
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I am so totally not buying the duster and whip guy being anything but cringeworthy.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:49 AM
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Trivia: The Norwegian author Knut Hamsun was ridiculed for foppishness in Minneapolis around 1890 because he wore legging with 19 buttons on them.

He never forgave the US, and eventually became a Nazi. I'm just saying.

However, I do strongly recommend "Hunger" and "Mysteries". His way of writing is so un-Nineteenth Century that it seems almost contemporary, and it's hard to realize how original he was. He probably was an influence on Joyce.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:50 AM
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62: That's good to know, b/c I was thinking of going and buying more today since I'm moving soon, and now I'll just wait 'til I get to Minneapolis and go pick it up at the Whole Paycheck. Thanks!


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:51 AM
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65: he was so totally awesome at everything. His Halloween costumes were the stuff of legend.

Hunger and Mysteries rock.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:51 AM
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Okay, so I think we're learning that Ben gets a woody for affected gothy-type men with dusters and whips.

I'm not sure I really needed to know that.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:53 AM
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Oh, he wasn't gothy.

Otherwise you might be right.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 11:54 AM
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20: Check Miss Sanderson! Also, I love this: And, in spite of the efforts which his friends made to dissuade him, this man suddenly stripped off his coat and waistcoat, and rushed at the Professor, trying to take him by surprise, and sending a violent swing at his head. I wonder if the coat/waistcoat removal gave the alert professor a clue to the coming surprise.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 12:07 PM
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I didn't start completely from scratch -- I paid a lot of attention to fashion when I was a teenager, then pretty much forgot about it in my 20s and early 30s when I was broke-ass broke, and then realized that the look I had was too schlumpy and started paying attention again.

However, I don't think those who follow fashion in high school necessarily have that much of an advantage as adults. High school dressing is way more about staying trendy than about dressing stylishly in a way that's flattering to your body, skin tone, etc., and there's a HUGE difference between the two. As an adult you'll probably want to figure out first what cuts and colors look good on you, then start watching trends and decide on one or two per season that you think will be flattering.

So how do you figure out what works on you? Data, data, data. Start with What Not To Wear by Trinny Woodall and Susannah Constantine, which will give you a good overview of what works on various body types. If you have a bigger book budget, get more What Not To Wear books (the ones by Trinny and Susannah have more detailed, practical advice) or the Lucky Style Manual (which is more about how to put together outfits). Also hit the magazine stand and pick up a range of magazines: a couple on the high-fashion end (Vogue, W, Elle) and a couple that are more geared towards the budget end (Lucky, Marie Claire, InStyle). If the high-fashion magazines are just too ridiculous for you to want to spend money on, you can get some of the same information with less editorial filtering off style.com or the runway shows late at night on the Style Network.

Read the books, then look through the magazines and start noting what you like and don't like. If you've got cable, start watching makeover shows (though they'll be heavy on examples and light on advice): What Not To Wear UK on BBC America, WNTW US on TLC, How Do I Look? and The Look for Less (both on the Style Network) are all shows that are regularly clogging up our TiVo. Find a street style blog for your area to keep up on (Google or Technorati for "street style" plus your city), or just go somewhere busy and people-watch.

Then, keeping in mind everything you've learned, go shopping. Only a small fraction of what's out there will appeal to you and look good on you, so haul a mountain of clothes with you into the dressing room. (I end up buying mmmmaybe 1 out of 10 things I try on, though I'm short and on the edge of plus-sized, which makes it harder for me to find things than most.) Be sure to grab a lot of stuff outside your comfort zone, because remember you're trying to change your look here, and things that you might have shied away from in the past could actually look really good on you. Spend more money on well-made basics that will last you several years; spend less on trendy stuff that will bore you after 2 or 3 months. (And re: building a look, I agree with everything everyone said above, except maybe the jewelry thing. :)

The tricky part is figuring out what fashion advice to listen to and what advice to ignore. Avoiding pleated and/or tapered pants, as per Stacy and Clinton on US WNTW? Dead on. The trend report in Lucky that's about 1/3 of the way in to the magazine? Universally hideous. Everything in between is a judgement call.


Posted by: Magpie | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 12:27 PM
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Also: Hi, delurking.

And: I blame the patriarchy for the fact that it's so hard for me to find clothes. Also, the takeout places nearby for being so g.d. tasty. But mostly the patriarchy.

Carry on.


Posted by: Magpie | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 12:39 PM
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Magpie, are you related to your fellow BOFH rone?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 12:47 PM
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I don't like Old Navy or the Gap. All their stuff falls apart and on my body type, everything they sell looks like crap. I have no idea who their target customer is but it isn't anyone shaped like me.

I like turquoise jewelry because it's such a bold color. I also like diamonds and other sparkly things.

I disagree with B on makeup; cheap is fine. But then I haven't owned a bottle of foundation or pressed powder in 10 years or so, and most of the difference with the cheap stuff means that you have to apply it more often.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 12:58 PM
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Flipping the patriarchical roles somewhat, I've found that dressing well as a man on a seriously restrictive budget -- i.e. grad school -- is damn near impossible, at least for me. I end up looking either like the world's saddest frat boy or even more grad-school-wankery than I do already. Give me a few hundred (or, realistically, a few thousand) bucks to revamp my wardrobe though, and I'd be golden.


Posted by: Anarch | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:02 PM
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i agree with dr. B about high-end toiletries (even if i get other brands, like l'occitane). the higher-priced stuff really does work significantly better, and often if you use it regularly you don't need make-up, except for a little lip balm/lip gloss, which is very good for those like me without the attention span for make-up.


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:07 PM
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74: I did meet him this summer, but no, no relation.

75: Cheap foundation turns me orange.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:10 PM
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76, I'm afraid, is true, unless you want to embrace the thrift-store hipster look. Which, it's debatable whether that counts as "dressing well." I dunno if women on that budget can dress "well" either, though--they can usually do cute or funky. Does that count?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:10 PM
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Yeah, the ability to actually try on and return foundation, if necessary, is worth the extra money, imho.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:23 PM
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79: For these purposes, yeah. "Well" in the sense of having a coherent personal style in which you look good, not necessarily "professional" or what have you. I have a few male friends who really can rock the thrift-store hipster look, or who just look good in anything, but I'm so not one of them.


Posted by: Anarch | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:27 PM
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Oh right. Well, then the "coherent personal style" is "I'm an impoverished grad student."


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:29 PM
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76, 79, 81: If you know what you want to buy in reasonable detail by sizes, brand-names, etc, have you tried eBay? For women at least, there's a surprising amount of new clothing there -- I don't know that the same is true for men, but it might be.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:30 PM
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"Well" in the sense of having a coherent personal style in which you look good, not necessarily "professional" or what have you. I have a few male friends who really can rock the thrift-store hipster look, or who just look good in anything, but I'm so not one of them.

You dick. You're in the prime of cheap and easy. Enjoy it! Learn the difference between a t-shirt and a good t-shirt. Learn to size your clothes properly. Buy some decent shoes and some decent jeans. Every six months, go find a jacket in a thrift store.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:32 PM
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Anyone have suggestions on how not to look like a porcelain doll when wearing foundation? The reason I don't own any stems from the fact that wearing made me feel startlingly artificial.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:36 PM
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I don't think 76 has to be true. The playing field of men's clothing is smaller, true, but the rules are generally the same. For little money you can buy generics—simple colored tees, for examples, or basic buttonups—leaving more money for the things on which you should want to spend a lot. Blue jeans and slacks and blazers probably should cost a bit, because quality items that you want to lost should cost more—but you only really need a few pairs of pants and one (maybe two blazers).

I can't believe I'm about to use these words, but: Men can accessorize by arranging in interesting ways the stuff they already wear. I think a great look for fall is a button die, with tie, worn under a fleece or zippered cardigan or funky jacket, however you prefer, so that the knot of the tie is showing. (Maybe the dsquared zippered cardigan?) I for one don't think that's too showy, though it's distinctly not-schlubby.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:36 PM
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Though you must avoid this look at all costs.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:37 PM
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That cardigan screams "tool".


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:38 PM
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Yes, don't actually wear that cardigan. Unless you're Welsh.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:40 PM
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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood...


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:41 PM
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I'm more or less with Emerson on the fashion question, though since I moved to the US I've begun to pay more attention to it.

I have friend who for the longest time had a "uniform": t-shirt, blue levis, and Adidas gazelles. This was before gazelles became trendy; when they did, he was annoyed that people might think he was jumping on a bandwagon. Anyway, this is what he wore every day (on really really cold days he might put a sweater on over his t-shirt) for over fifteen years.

I had a female friend who had a uniform too: plaid long-sleeved shirt, blue or black levis, and a baseball cap. I was at her place and looked in her closet once, and it was just hangers of levis and hangers of plaid shirts.

I admire this, probably for the same sorts of reasons I admire Teo for not owning any music.


Posted by: dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:41 PM
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'Smasher, are you sure? You seem to have impeccable taste, but I'm just not seeing this tie/fleece thing.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:42 PM
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79: It can count as dressing well, but thrift store shopping takes serious dedication. All of my best clothes come from thrift/resale stores, but only on one out of maybe ten trips will I find something great. That much shopping is a total pain in the ass.

Since my daughters were born, my wardrobe has consisted primarily of t-shirts and Carhartt shorts, which is generally fine in dress-down Portland. The nattily dressed old black guys in my neighborhood shame me, though.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:42 PM
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Ogged has a uniform.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:43 PM
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I'm certain! It's probably not easy to imagine, because you have to have the right colors assembled. I'll find my camera (and tie).


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:45 PM
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85: I think the point of foundation is to make you look like a porcelain doll version of yourself.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:45 PM
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94: what's Ogged's uniform?


Posted by: dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:47 PM
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25 & previous: I've occasionally semi-seriously attempted to grow my moustache out to waxed-stache length, but find it impossible not to chew it off once it hits a certain length.


Posted by: Tom Scudder | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:48 PM
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He made a post about it at some point; I can't remember what it is exactly but I think it involves a black north face shirt, a t shirt, and blue jeans.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:50 PM
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85: You don't want something that's too heavy, and you want to make sure it's the right color. Also you might want something that's not a "matte" finish, and you might want to experiment with not using powder.

96: Nah. The point is to minimize things like uneven coloring or sun spots or what have you.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:55 PM
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I changed my style during grad school, when it became apparent that wearing t-shirt and jeans made my students, to nearly a one, think I was a lesbian. I was really tired of answering questions about queer theory asked in jest (or to make fun of me) that I had no business answering because I'm straight--queer is not part of my identity, and I can't speak FOR anyone who is, just because I wear jeans and clunky boots all the freaking time.

And thus, I was lead to find girlier clothes for the first time ever. I discovered a couple stores that will do for the 20s to 30s set if you can pick through the teenage garbage--Maurice's (which sells flattering business wear as well as fancy but affordable day to day clothes), Vanity (more of the same), and Forever 21--a Christian run junk pit of eclectic weirdness made in California sweatshops but that is, nevertheless, fashionable.

But due to the fact that Forever 21 was crappy and sort of a liberal sin, I finally found my way online.

The real answer to this question is: Shop at www.bluefly.com

There are designer clothes there, they are relatively cheap, and there's stuff to fit all tastes/budgets/blah blah blah. But what's really important is that it's a great place to browse and find stuff that suits you and is fashionable all at once. Through bluefly I fell in love with wedge heels and I no longer get grilled about my sexuality on the first day of class just because I happen to be a female English student. *sigH*


Posted by: Girly Shoe Academic | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:56 PM
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I changed my style during grad school, when it became apparent that wearing t-shirt and jeans made my students, to nearly a one, think I was a lesbian. I was really tired of answering questions about queer theory asked in jest (or to make fun of me) that I had no business answering because I'm straight--queer is not part of my identity, and I can't speak FOR anyone who is, just because I wear jeans and clunky boots all the freaking time.

And thus, I was lead to find girlier clothes for the first time ever. I discovered a couple stores that will do for the 20s to 30s set if you can pick through the teenage garbage--Maurice's (which sells flattering business wear as well as fancy but affordable day to day clothes), Vanity (more of the same), and Forever 21--a Christian run junk pit of eclectic weirdness made in California sweatshops but that is, nevertheless, fashionable.

But due to the fact that Forever 21 was crappy and sort of a liberal sin, I finally found my way online.

The real answer to this question is: Shop at www.bluefly.com

There are designer clothes there, they are relatively cheap, and there's stuff to fit all tastes/budgets/blah blah blah. But what's really important is that it's a great place to browse and find stuff that suits you and is fashionable all at once. Through bluefly I fell in love with wedge heels and I no longer get grilled about my sexuality on the first day of class just because I happen to be a female English student. *sigH*


Posted by: Girly Shoe Academic | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:56 PM
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Even with bluefly's discounts a lot of their stuff is pretty damn spendy.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 1:58 PM
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Hey this was cool: I was riding my bike this morning and I saw a sign on someone's lawn saying "STRASMANGELO" in big letters. Couldn't quite rub my eyes being on the cycle and all but I would have. As I got closer I saw my error: it was an election poster for Rich Mastrangelo's sheriff campaign. Still, fun while it lasted.


Posted by: Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:11 PM
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It's all about the outlet mall. I try to limit clothes-shopping to twice-yearly day-long jaunts upstate.

Speaking of walking sticks: I had a grad-school friend who had a walking stick. The top was a carved duck's head with a diamond in one eye. He also had waist-long hair, wore straw hats in summertime, and a cloak ("not a cape! A CLOAK!") in winter. I admired him for this, not because he could "pull it off" (I'm agnostic on that issue), but rather because everyone else thought he looked goofy but he dressed to please himself.


Posted by: dagger aleph | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:16 PM
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Here I am in not-quite-matching sweater and tie. Can I make a believer out of you, m. leblanc?


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:17 PM
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I buy most of my clothes at Kmart.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:19 PM
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I dig your tie but the knot looks too small to me.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:20 PM
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16 & 19: My father had both a riding crop that was a sword-stick and a lovely ebony cane with a silver wolf's head top concealing a micro-switch that activated the built-in elephant prod. Good for those late nights in Beirut.

He also built a pair of nunchucks into a purse for me when I went off to live in NYC.

We are oddly armed in my family.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:21 PM
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106: Why does no one shave anymore?

Shannon Sharpe does not partake of the African-American stylin' exception.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:24 PM
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what's Ogged's uniform?

Here.

(Though I've replaced cotton socks with Smartwool.)


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:25 PM
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I shave.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:25 PM
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The one foppish men's garment I wish would make a comeback is the morning coat. Got married in one; love the cut.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:26 PM
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Old Navy - their cut models are smaller breasted than I am. Nothing from there closes in front on me. (I am not wasp-waisted, so this isn't the common "what is an incredibly stacked but tiny-waisted woman to do?" complaint.) Vintage clothes are virtually always too small in general, but especially through the shoulders. Did none of those women swim or lift? Oh, right.

But I think my biggest problem is that I get hung up on an odd literalism. My girlfriend Ali (who has a difficult build to fit) looks gorgeous all the time, in outrageous accessories. But I would just never tie my hair back with a scarlet scarf and huge hoop earrings, because I am not, in fact, a gypsy princess who was kidnapped by pirates. And I can't buy those cute shoes that I did kinda like, because I am not really a bike messenger on my way back from bowling night. So I end up in jeans and a t-shirt all the time, because they say pretty much nothing.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:28 PM
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Yeah, I only did the (once-around know? half-windsor?). Regrettably, that's the only knot I know.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:29 PM
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106: Hey, that looks good.

I was thrown off by the use of the word "fleece" which makes me think "ugly".


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:32 PM
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114: Okay, so you're not going to go for a dramatic look. Jeans and tshirts are fine; if you want to look fashionable, rather than bland, get shirts that are actually shaped somewhat and jeans that are flattering, and wear them with some excellent shoes. It's a perfectly valid and attractive look.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:32 PM
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Did Smasher just get dressed up and take a picture just for us? Thanks, Smasher!


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:33 PM
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Nothing from there closes in front on me.

Yeah, me neither. But neither does any button-up shirt from any other store, either. I hate that all of the men's-style shirts made for women have a good deal of stretch, which means it pulls apart at the bust if you have big boobs. Even shirts two sizes two large do this on me. My solution is safety pins between the relevant buttons (usually two sets, on the bust and just below). If you know how to put a safety pin in right, it's pretty much invisible.

Of course, this does making hurried sex clothes-taking-off problematic, but I'm willing to live with that.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:36 PM
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two sizes too large.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:37 PM
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You know, I'm trying to think of where it was I saw women's shirts that had buttons *at* the point of greatest circumference, rather than right above and right below it, but I'm damned if I can remember now.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:38 PM
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But I think my biggest problem is that I get hung up on an odd literalism. My girlfriend Ali (who has a difficult build to fit) looks gorgeous all the time, in outrageous accessories. But I would just never tie my hair back with a scarlet scarf and huge hoop earrings, because I am not, in fact, a gypsy princess who was kidnapped by pirates. And I can't buy those cute shoes that I did kinda like, because I am not really a bike messenger on my way back from bowling night.

This is something that I recognize -- I have similar fashion issues that I've solved mostly through a combination of having my more stylish sister give me good advice and clothes that don't work on her, and having a suit-required career. Suits are easy.

I would seriously make an effort to cut loose from the literalism, though. Not that you have to dress flashy if you don't want to, but if you aren't interested in clothes, absolutely anything non-utilitarian will feel phony (I know! I, too, feel this way!) and you'll never get anywhere. Buy stuff that will look good, and forget that it doesn't express inner (or outer) truths about yourself. It's clothes. They don't.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:40 PM
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I gave up on most button-up shirts a while ago, but I *can* wear the sort that have a very deep V-neck, so the first button is just above boob level. It doesn't show cleavage. It drapes differently, though, than a shirt with a normal collar and for some reason it doesn't do the busting-out thing.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:41 PM
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119: You know, my tits aren't even particularly large, and I have this problem. More closely spaced buttons, please.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:41 PM
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But even utilitarian clothing can be quite stylish; it really is largely about cut and quality.

123 solves for me the question of why "women's" shirts with the deep V, rather than the men's-style shirt with buttons up to the collar, are always so much more flattering. It must be something about the button placement or something. Anyway, it makes more sense, since women don't wear ties and therefore have no need to button a shirt all the way to the collar.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:43 PM
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Well, the two or three button-up shirts I have are the deep-V style, and they still require safety pins. But that's because, as very helpfully pointed out, there is no button at the greatest point of circumference. Or maybe my point is just different than most women.


Posted by: m. leblanc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:45 PM
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forget that it doesn't express inner (or outer) truths about yourself. It's clothes. They don't

They don't?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:51 PM
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So, in summary - there is technique (watching people who are built like you, finding a look that flatters your build, buying mostly in that theme, using jewelry) and that can get you to moderately stylish. Incidentally, I have learned some lessons - if you're not slim, your clothes have to fit closer, not looser, was a revelation.

But are we mostly agreed that a genuine personal style requires a genuine interest in clothes? Because without the added bonus of shopping with a fun friend, there is simply no time when I would choose window shopping or real shopping over going to the park to play catch.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:54 PM
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82: "in which you look good" were the key words in that sentence.

84: Trouble is, I look like crap in cheap and easy. [I should know, I've been trying for the last seven years.] And good clothing -- I'm not talking couture or anything, just good clothing -- is expensive. Or "spendy", if you will. I've got some new stuff which I'm optimistic about but it pretty much red-lined my finances for the forseeable future.

106: You look good in that. I'd look (even more) like a pillock.

110: I shave too although it's more for health reasons than anything else; annoying, since I look better with a day of stubble.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:55 PM
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Well, for people who are like that (in tune with their esthetic preferences and seeing fashion as a means of self expression) maybe they do. For someone like me, who thinks wistfully about China in the 70's as a fashion heaven ("Hmm. What to wear? Oh, how about a quilted jacket and pants! In a nice drab color!") whatever I'm wearing doesn't say much about me. It may look pretty or ugly, but that's about it.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:56 PM
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128: Dunno about women's clothes, but for men it's not necessary that you have a genuine interest in clothes, just a genuine interest in looking good.


Posted by: Anarch | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:56 PM
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But are we mostly agreed that a genuine personal style requires a genuine interest in clothes?

Yes. You can look good without an interest, but to express anything genuine through your clothes, I think you have to care. And there's no reason why you should.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:58 PM
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It takes a little effort and a lot of discrimination but I've bought a lot of new or nearly new clothes off Ebay that I couldn't afford otherwise. Make a list of labels or designers or colors you like and run through them every few days.

Were it socially acceptable for me to dress like Tom Baker I'd do it every day.

I'd choose Peter Davidson. But I had a roomate once who dressed most of the time like either Tom Baker or Indiana Jones, complete with jacket and fedora. It was hard not to laugh.


Posted by: Paul | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:58 PM
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So, 8, changing the plug was easy, attaching the dryer vent to the new dryer was a pain but I think it worked (though I was slightly grumped out by the sign on the dryer saying 'don't use a foil vent' when foil vents were the only ones I had and the ones attached to the dryer), on a brief trial the thing worked without bursting into flames but I haven't done a full load, unfortunately after putting my record shelf almost all the way together I realized that I didn't know where the four crossbraces were after being taken out of storage so that's taking up the floor of my office until I either find them or buy some replacements at the hardware store.


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:58 PM
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Re: Style: I second m. leblanc on the really good haircut and Dr B on the fitted shirts/jeans, with the addition of a really nice jacket or two. Spend real money on getting a good fit and good fabric, both for the look and the durability, but don't use price as the sole criterion - the Kid bought himself a pair of $262 jeans that are made like crap out of so-so denim - I thought they were a $20 pair from Target. Remember that different shoes can take the same outfit from casual to business to night out.

Re: Doing things around the house: There are all sorts of how-to books out there. Some adult schools and hardware stores have classes. Major power tools can usually be rented, which means one doesn't have to invest heavily in order to complete a project.

Local advice: When wallpapering, understand that there isn't a single dwelling in CA with truly plumb walls.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 2:59 PM
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129: You're doing it wrong. Probably on fit; that's what I had a hard time wrapping my mind around. Grab a female friend and make her go with you.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 3:04 PM
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The cat was just trying to get into an empty box that was resting on another, smaller box, and cat and box fell over in a dramatic fashion. Fortunately the cat was not harmed or even particulary freaked out. Now she's sniffing around the box which has been placed in a stabler position on the floor (though it could also be put on the record shelf). If only I knew where the packing tape is!


Posted by: Matt Weiner | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 3:10 PM
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136: You're absolutely right on fit. It's almost impossible to find anything that fits me well which is why I can't find anything cheap and easy that I look good in; they're all cut to fit different body types than mine. And this after extensive discussions, though not actual trips, with both female friends and gay friends. It's not a big deal -- I'm still in grad school, the "impoverished grad student" look can suffice for another few years -- but it's annoying nonetheless.


Posted by: Anarch | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 3:19 PM
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Anyone here looks like a slave to fashion compared to me. Shorts from a dollar store, blood-bank t-shirts (1 new a month), gimme-cap, running shoes without socks.

I have two outfits for jury duty or whatever. Very dusty.


Posted by: bob mcmanus | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 4:03 PM
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We need to make an Unfogged field trip to Hong Kong. Custom suits for all! Plus cheongsams for the laydeez! Alameida can find us somebody, right?

He also built a pair of nunchucks into a purse for me when I went off to live in NYC.

Really? do you know how to use nunchuks? That sounds like Emma Peel territory.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 4:55 PM
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"and forget that it doesn't express inner (or outer) truths about yourself. It's clothes. They don't."

it does say what subculture you're identifying with, at least for the evening.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:04 PM
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i've mostly quit making attempts at style since i've been in college/grad school. i used to have cool shit. now its all hipstery/thrift store or stuff thats generic enough to wear all the time. wearing totally foppish stuff can be fun, but everyone only talks abotu what you're wearing when you first interact. which is probably something like being a girl and having people tell you you're hot, now that i think about it.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:09 PM
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140: Grew up in Hong Kong; still probably have enough connections to hook people up if anyone's actually serious about that.


Posted by: Anarch | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:17 PM
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140: I did; age & infirmity have long since caught up with me. [[sigh] Try being graceful with a recently re-attached Achilles tendon - I'll never do my Emma Peel savate routine again.] My progenitor had the idea that his daughters ought to be able to comport themselves in a ladylike manner: Know how to ride a horse, play a decent game of tennis, shoot a gun, rewire a lamp and kick ass.

I fear the only thing I've done lately is the lamp thing.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:26 PM
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also annoying: popped collars as a trend. i played lacrosse; i rowed crew. but i've had to stop wearing polo shirts the last few years as its turned into this hollister affectation.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:30 PM
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140/143: I thought Shenzhen was the new bespoke suit Mecca.

Best trick: Fly courier - it's cheap - and pay for an extra piece of luggage to bring home the clothes. [Courier flight use one's baggage allowance.]


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:31 PM
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I once bought a purple suit at a thrift store that some guy had had custom-made in Hong Kong back in the seventies. Polyester with paisley lining. It fits me better than any other item of clothing I own. I'd like to wear it more, but I'm never sure what sort of occasion calls for a purple suit.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:32 PM
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I never saw a purple suit...


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:35 PM
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144: Oh, that sucks. Tendon injuries are the worst, as I know to my sorrow. How did yours detach? Your dad's list of ladylike accomplishments kicks ass itself.

143: I was mostly joking; I want to go to hong kong but probably won't get there for another year or two. But when I go, I definitely want to get some clothes made.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:35 PM
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i've seen a couple of purple suits. alwasy on a black man during lunch at a restaurant on sunday.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:38 PM
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146: That makes sense, as the exchange rate on the mainland is insane, or was when I was there. What is happening or has happened to Hong Kong currency?


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:40 PM
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148: Apparently eb doesn't like the NBA.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:41 PM
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He's not alone.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:43 PM
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I'm not going to make 148 explicit.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 5:51 PM
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106, 115. The knot, actually well-described by Smasher, is called a four-in-hand. Recognize it by it's length to width, and characteristic asymmetry. All other knots, half and full Windsor and Shelby, are wider and symmetrical


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 6:00 PM
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Are there functional reasons for the existence of different kinds of knots for ties?


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 6:15 PM
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Apparently some work better for certain kinds of tie than others. w-lfs-n knows the details.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 6:22 PM
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I only know the four-in-hand, and the asymmetry can be kind of irritating.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 6:27 PM
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bigger/fatter faces require bigger knots; emaciated faces on smaller guys require smaller knots. also can depend on the length of the tie.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 6:37 PM
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146: It is, but you can daytrip there from HK. Plus, some of the old-school tailors are (I think) still hanging on, many of whom give volume discounts.


Posted by: Anarch | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:09 PM
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Skinnier ties require bigger knots. I resent the implication, from a Buckeye, that my face needs the larger knot.


Posted by: Armsmasher | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:12 PM
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It depends also on shirt collar.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:13 PM
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I suppose I need to redefine my understanding of the word "functional."


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:30 PM
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To address these issues you should probably define it so that it applies to ties in the first place.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:32 PM
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I was just thinking of knots in general, and then tie knots specifically. You generally tie a bowline or a triple-half-hitch for reasons having to do with the force you expect to be applied to the knot, or whether you'll need to adjust or untie it quickly or for other reasons (not that I remember how to tie those knots, or when). But to my uneducated eye any of the usual tie knots seem to get the job done of keeping the tie from choking you or falling off your neck.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:38 PM
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The thing is that ties are purely ornamental, so the main consideration when it comes to knots is how they look.


Posted by: teofilo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:40 PM
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they also have signaling uses, especially the original repp ties


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:43 PM
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Right, which is why I was wondering if functional considerations - in the way I understand them with respect to knots in general - ever played any role in differentiating the various knots. The answer seems to be no. I have no problem with there being stylistic reasons for one knot or another.


Posted by: eb | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 7:45 PM
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Plus cheongsams for the laydeez!

Fuck that! I want a cheongsam. Or a suit. For serious. If someone has cheap connections, let me know. I found a purple cashmere blazer at a thrift store not long ago. I still haven't worn it.

Emma Peel was my earliest role model. It's all her fault.


Posted by: Paul | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 8:33 PM
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now that I'm back up I wanted to say to megan: try harder on the vintage clothes. even if you only have one great 50's dress you can wear it to parties all the time and it's incredibly easy since you don't have to wear anything else besides shoes to look great. keep trying them; the upper body thing is a problem for many people, but you'll get lucky eventually.


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:20 PM
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I have several dresses that look lovely and feminine on me. Dresses aren't as hard as other outfits, because they are just one clothing, shoes and jewelry. I don't have any fantastic 50's dresses though, so if you tell me they are different, I'll keep looking.

What I also don't get is when to wear dresses. Some women wear them when it isn't a fancy occasion. Like, they wear a dress, and then look pretty just when they are sitting at a cafe. But going to a cafe doesn't require more than jeans and a t-shirt (for example), so they must not feel self-conscious wearing more than the minimal clothing required by the occasion. When I wear dresses, I get distracted by: 1. my cleavage, all hanging out everywhere and shouting at people, 2. the moving hemline, because it is curling and swaying, and 3. the idea of my increased girliness. You just get used to those things? Even when they are gratuitous, and instead you could be thinking of what your friend is saying or whether you would rather swim or go to yoga tonight?


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:35 PM
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You get used to hemlines and the increased girliness; the cleavage thing depends on the dress.

In a way, actually, dresses are very practical and not "more" than what's required--after all, it's just one piece of clothing, you slip it on, you're done getting dressed.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 9:43 PM
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dresses & skirts seem very practical, but i'm not going to break through that barriar.


Posted by: yoyo | Link to this comment | 09-10-06 10:20 PM
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I never hope to see one.


Posted by: standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 7:02 AM
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But I can tell you this, to boot:


Posted by: standpipe b | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 7:02 AM
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Standpipe B is a purple cow!


Posted by: Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 7:04 AM
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Also: my dad wore a purple suit to my wedding.


Posted by: Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 7:05 AM
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I like skirts. They feel dressier in some ways, but they're also much easier to deal with as opposed to shorts. Plus, when you're buying a skirt, the only aspect of the fit you usually need to worry about is length and waist. Everything else is flowy.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 7:11 AM
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Some of the shops here are/were selling these dresses that have a 50s-retro meets Japanese gothic-lolita thing happening. Black with big bows and sashes at the waist, puff-sleeves, full skirt and tight bodice.

My wife is rockin' that look at the moment as it's just about formal enough for work but quirky at the same time.


Posted by: nattarGcM ttaM | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 7:17 AM
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Plus cheongsams for the laydeez!

I initially read this as 'cheongasms.' Because the one thing I really like is giving laydeez cheongasms.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 7:30 AM
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Back to the handiness thing--my dad never really taught me a blamed thing about tools (we built a set of bookshelves, once), and I only had a quarter's worth of shop class. I'm now handy enough that I have completely refinished a basement (wired new overhead lighting, hung a drop ceiling, built new walls, including hanging doors, and put in a 300-square-foot tile floor). I learned all the necessary skills watching This Old House, reading the Home Depot omnibus on home maintenance, and being willing to blow some money on a professional if I fucked up. It took about five years.


Posted by: Chopper | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 9:30 AM
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All that and curing meat.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 9:31 AM
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This is more of a guy thing, but one thing you can do is pick a store whose clothes you like then buy all of your clothes from that store. Hardly, anyone will know and even fewer will care that you buy all your clothes from bananna republic. You should wait until sales to make big purchases. Pick a store that doesn't make a lot of radical changes seaon to season.

The other tip I have is to make sure you have your sizing right.


Posted by: joe o | Link to this comment | 09-11-06 10:39 AM
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