ogged, I repeat: they'll only waterboard you until you confess. It won't be so bad.
Leaving is unfogiveable.
I worry that you're right. I also worry that I'll try to leave too late.
No, it's not easy getting a job at HRW or Amnesty. I doubt I could, even though I'm a lawyer and I've volunteered for them. Nor it is necessarily all that easy to get to do interesting volunteer work....again, being a lawyer makes it easier, but is not required.
The way I started was simply researching and writing about this on my own, to prove I could do it. That begat volunteer gigs, which eventually begat a paid gig.
Once you start, one thing sort of leads to another, but it's not necessarily all that easy to start.
I'll email you in case you want to chat about this.
I don't think moving to Canada helps. If that's right for you on a personal level go for it, but I don't think it actually improves the situation at all.
I assumed the typo in 2 was deliberate. Was it not?
I don't think moving to Canada helps.
Yeah, I would do it in the spirit of "I give up," not "this'll show 'em."
but the good stuff at those places is reserved for lawyers.
Yeah, no guff. Sometimes for Phds and ex-journalists, too. Everyone else is highly-educated but badly-paid support staff.
If everyone sane takes off to Europe or Canada, you're basically leaving this country in the hands of wackos. And this country has nuclear weapons.
Also in the spirit of "no internment camp for me, thanks."
f "no internment camp for me, thanks."
Who knows, you might meet a nice Iranian girl there.
Kids nowadays. Why when I was a lad, we prayed for the opportunity to go to an internment camp!
8- Well, it worked well. (Or would have if you'd meant to express exactly the opposite sentiment. Those things that we at unfogged can easily forgive are unfogiveable.)
Who knows, you might meet a nice Iranian girl there.
Yeah, but then I really would have to live with her family.
Ogged's looking for a job, not an internship.
10: I feel nervous about my status here (i'm not a citizen). I'm suspicious because I travel to the ME a lot and speak Arabic. I worry that one day when I'm trying to get home, they won't let me in.
Ogged, if you got a job doing this stuff, our rights would wither away while you dicked around on the internet. Why don't you get a paid position with the NSA instead?
Go ahead, you all, laugh at me: I moved back to this country in the summer of 2001.
My roommate and I were discussing whether leaving for us (two natural-born citizen white girls) would be morally justifiable, and we concluded that the answer was 'probably not.'
[Monty Python voice:]
I've always wanted to be... an expatriate!
No, I have -- somehow never worked it out. But it was always be vague plan to be living abroad by about 5 years ago. But now having not gotten this happening on schedule, looks like it is no longer an option morally speaking.
I moved back the summer of 2000 and had ample opportunities to move away and never to come back until, say, Fall 2004. Too late now!
However, I bet I could fit at least twenty or thirty in my cabin in nowheresville, Yukon, if things gets really bad.
Um, in sleeping bags, on the floor. And I can't recommend setting up this little refugee camp in the wintertime.
With thirty people in sleeping bags on the floor, we'd hardly need to heat the place from the body heat.
2:Like hell it is.
Thomas Mann, Schoenberg, Einstein all left. If I scream and rant, it is because if it gets to a certain point, there is probably nothing to be done but leave.
But it can't happen here, huh.
I, too have the option, but I haven't really considered it; I don't think it's far enough away. I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy.
My great-uncle George, sole survivor of his battalion in WWI, at least of the attack — imagine what that must feel like — lived alone in a cabin in the Yukon the rest of his life. He wrote my dad long philosophical letters into the 1980s.
One could construct an index of expatriation based on a set of principled expatriates/refugees from unpalatable regimes, to determine what it took/should take for one to leave.
I dunno, LB. I've never been up there in the winter, and my family up there thinks global warming has been great for them, but the stories about The Cold Snap of ---3 (or whatever) are just brutal.
Did anyone else read TC Boyle's Drop City? It was about a hippie agrarian free-love commune that moves from California to Alaska: very Ken Kesey wanders into Jack London's world.
Brownshirts ...Billmon
Not the depressing one, which probably should get everyone to leave immediately. According to what I understand of fascism, thuggish street violence is the key. The last step is bypassing the various power brokers in journalism, business, academia and creating a direct conduit of power between followers and ideologues at the top. There is also a final acceptance of force as the primary political tool and source of legitimization.
Canada itself isn't a perfect option. But it'll do.
One could construct an index of expatriation based on a set of principled expatriates/refugees from unpalatable regimes, to determine what it took/should take for one to leave.
That would be very cool. Who's gonna do it?
Fun fact: Abraham Lincoln once mused about leaving the country:
"As a nation we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it, 'all men are created equal, except Negroes.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except Negroes and foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I shall prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty...where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy."
--Abraham Lincoln, letter to Joshua Speed, Aug. 24, 1855.
From this I draw the lesson that it's fine to TALK about it, but you shouldn't actually DO it unless you're in danger.
I think overall, Canada is a little less broken than the US (and in different ways). Then again, I thought that before the current administration. And there are a lot of similarities, of course. Problem is, if things get really sideways here, Canada just isn't isolated enough from the US to not be pulled into the soup with it. I guess there is the exception that if things get *really* sideways, there is a lot more middle-of-nowhere in Canada....
Ogged, if you move to Canada, go to Vancouver. *Maybe* Montreal.
Slol, you know I've got you beat on that "coming back to the country" thing.
Canada: less broken politically, but waaaaay more boring.
Actually, scratch that in 33. I don't think that Canada is less broken. I think (perhaps naively) that at least some of the core problems that Canada has are more likely to be fixed than some of the core problems the US has. Or at least the potential is there.
32: Well, yeah, which is why Ogged thinking of moving to Canada is more sensible than when your average Outraged White Liberal (tm) talks about it.
39: Montreal doesn't suck. Except for the fucking weather. It's not as nice as where you live now, though.
35: that depends what parts you're comparing, no? I sometimes suspect Canada maintains a `boring' image in part to keep some yahoos out....
Problem is, if things get really sideways here, Canada just isn't isolated enough from the US to not be pulled into the soup with it.
There's really no escape from US foreign policy anywhere.
And Canadian authorities have a lot to answer for, considering their role in the Maher Arar fiasco.
Montreal doesn't even come close to sucking. Not sure where ogged lives now, but not many north american cities are in it's league. On the other hand, the winters *are* long. Upside is that the spring is amazing.
34 -- Wha'bout Regina? Or Saskatoon?
43: yes. definitely. (as do the US authorities involved). That falls into the broken part.
(Not to bother mentioning Winnipeg and Calgary as potential destinations.)
Give it six months. I am pessismistic, but I can be wrong. If we get thru the next six months, we probably have something like 5 more bearable years. And a chance to start a fight, to organize, educate, clarify, whatever. But if Bush attacks Iran, start packing.
The Way of the Whigs ...aw heck, Billmon's really depressing post. Democrats are the 1850's Whigs, and there is no real possibility of Civil War and Lincoln. LBJ knew not what he wrought. I have said that the solid south allied with business interests makes it very difficult for the left. Depression or War would go the other way this time.
Got young kids, look for somewhere else to live.
also, I can't speak to any index about fleeing repressive regimes, but I've done a bunch of asylum law work, and none of you are anywhere near having a "well founded fear of persecution" on account of your ethnicity, religion, or political opinion. The U.S. citizens especially--I'd deny your claims in a heartbeat. (Bob McManus' fear of persecution may be subjectively genuine but is not objectively well founded. Most of the rest of you appear to be trying to finagle an invitation to a sleepover in the Yukon.)
Seriously--if I were a noncitizen of middle Eastern appearance or origin, I would worry some. And hell, I worry anyway--I worry about everything. But I really think everyone who posts here is fine.
As I said, not far enough away. The more you know about it, the less it seems like an alternative. And we have a quorum here of people who know how disorienting and unsatisfactory it often is there.
I can't cotton on to talk about leaving, but I'd like to return to this question of what our options are. As a freelancer, I have no money to spare but an awful lot of time, and I live in the capital and all, but everything I think to do either seems petty in the face of our problems (like volunteering my time to stamp mailouts and whatnot) or too self congratulatory (carrying around my "H4B345, U N00B5" sign).
I kinda agreed with you, Bob. In six months, we should be able to start turning this scow around, and if we haven't by then started to make any progress, well, then I'll have to start thinking about other ways of thinking about all this.
Also, Regina and Saskatoon are not places where I could imagine ogged being very happy.
Wawa Ontario, perhaps?
Or how about Dildo, Newfoundland?
-if I were a noncitizen of middle Eastern appearance or origin,
I think ogged's (reasonable) concern is that if something really bad happens here, citizenship isn't going to matter much.
Regina
I know Canadians who spent a winter in Regina and still speak of it with dread and loathing.
I would say: not everyone here has a law degree, but everyone can read, research, and write. Become an expert on this stuff--pick a story or an angle that grabs you--and see where that leads. Write about it. Call your Senator or Congressman, and sound authoritiative and knowledgable enough to talk to his/her staffer on these issues.
There's an amazing gap between what's been reported on these issues, and what's generally known. Some reporters do a great job, but most don't, and they won't rehash other reporters' work so they miss an awful lot. Just find a thread or two to pull, and keep pulling on them, and see where it takes you. You'll be surprised.
I really and sincerely believe that planning to leave based on fears that You Are Next is at best crazy talk.
Having lived in both the Yukon and Montreal, and living most of the time (and currently) in Vancouver, I can say all three places are great (and don't diss Yukon winters, they're awesome).
But Vancouver? One of the three best places to live on Earth, say study after study.
57 - What if you made that an Unfogged project? Like, an earnest one? That required time and effort of the people who took it on?
What if you made that an Unfogged project? Like, an earnest one?
Kind of like a reading group?
My cousins went to boarding school in Regina. Apparently it was legal to be paddled there until, like, 1985. "More English than the Queen" is the phrase I keep hearing about Regina.
Regina's water tastes like crap.
58:We all have different pain threshholds, I guess. I may not worry about being rounded up, but watching ogged dragged off to a camp along with thousands of others, and not being able to stop it would be pretty tough to take. Watching Medicaid shut down, or elections suspended or the media becoming a complete propaganda arm. Or nuking Iran. Or choice going away.
My mere survival and prosperity is not what gets me thru the day.
Shorter 58: "I believe that all people are basically good".
60: I can't take the lead on anything, I'm starting a new job Tuesday which might entail crazy hours, and I'm living in the same city as my husband for the first time in a year. But if people are interested in an unfogged project or reading group I am happy to talk all of your ears off (and a couple of you have my email).
61 - I dunno. But there is outrage and phenomenal talent and lots of talk about DOING SOMETHING and Oh, I'm going to move in despair. But then, from what I've seen, also lots of snark and endless meta-discussions and smugness with the cock jokes. It would be incredibly sincere and uncool to pick something and set goals and start doing the crapwork and demand stuff of each other.
But since you have this incredible platform and you're all riled up, why not use what you've got? And if you think, well, that's not what people come here for and it could never work because we couldn't even read a book together, well, you know better than I do what makes up Unfogged.
The reading group thing was a joke / dig at the hopelessly idealistic Megan, who I could beat up, if I felt like it. We had a couple of reading groups here and they failed miserably.
68: It really isn't a bad idea, I just don't know where to start. I'm pretty much feeling like Armsmasher above -- what's to do that's any use? Doing work on this sort of thing isn't so much the problem as finding what work to start on.
I read that the Center for Constitutional Rights is preparing to file habeas petitions on behalf of some prisoners at Guantanamo, to get in an early challenge to the new law. I am a lawyer, supposedly, and I'd love to get involved -- volunteer, write research memos, do anything -- but my background and training are so far removed from these issues that I'd be no better than a layperson. Do we have any constitutional or prisoners' rights attorneys in this group? Is there a good primer to get up to speed quickly?
Agreed with 70. I'm totally looking for suggestions.
65: If any of those things were happening, I'd already be in line at the airport when you got there. They're not. We're in bad shape, policy-wise, but we've been in worse shape and frankly we have never, ever been in what I would consider genuinely good shape. We have a duty to undo the damage done by the bad policies of today and agitate for better policies tomorrow. Acknowledging that and fleeing for fear of jackboots in the shadows are two different things, and I consider the latter, today, a drastic overreaction.
My mere survival and prosperity already involve enough drama that I don't need to manufacture more.
Eh, Montreal isn't a bad city by any means, but I don't have the "omg, it's so fabulous!" reaction that people are supposed to have. It's a decent city where a lot of people speak French and half the year you don't want to leave the house.
everything I think to do either seems petty in the face of our problems (like volunteering my time to stamp mailouts and whatnot)
I suspect that this desire to do something "big" is why we're not the ones in power. Pounding the pavement and sending out lots and lots and lots of mail is vitally important.
The legislation is reprehensible and should be fought forcibly even if you are not next or no one actually goes. It's not crazy to see that someone's pissing on the Constitution and feel a strong desire to do something about it.
And, of course, the whole point is that unless it is you who is next, you'll never know that anything has gone wrong, to the extent that the Administration is able to hide that information.
Ah.
Well, God knows I'm hopelessly idealistic...My posts on this at OW tended more and more to just depress people into silence as time went on, and this place was more lighthearted than that one to begin with. Nevertheless, I think that just learning about this, and writing about it, make some difference. Look at Lederman.
74: That's a fair point, but I guess I want to do work that suits my ability, which I realize is limited—I'm happy to critique art to fight torture!—but I also feel that the new structures must be emerging and just I don't know about them.
McManly, I'm not worried that tonight I'm going to be hauled away, but I am worried that if there's another attack in the US, things are going to become very uncomfortable for Muslims, and if there's another attack after that, all bets are off. Like, seriously. And it's not like any of us can see an attack coming. It could happen tomorrow for all I know, and from what I've seen from my fellow citizens, only a small minority are going to give a shit if "the unthinkable" starts happening.
71:
They've got a number of habeas petitions for GTMO prisoners already. This week, they filed two new suits: a habeas suit for prisoners at Bagram, and a suit on behalf of one of the CIA ghosts who's now at GTMO.
Most of the attorneys are working for them pro bono, and I believe that many of them had no background in habeas or civil rights law. So I'm sure there are resources--I know that the lawyers who work on this call themselves the "Guantanamo Bay Bar Association." I don't know if they're looking for volunteer habeas counsel right now, but it might be worth asking.
I'm also supportive of Megan's o-earnest notion to start a project.
75, written by a straight, Xian, total honkey. Were I a noncitizen legal resident I would certainly be considering my options.
One of the great things about the arctic, for example the Yukon, is that while you don't have a lot of species of anything, you have enormous numbers of each species. So you can see enormous herds of lemmings and moose and char and rabbits and so on. Especially mosquitos.
If everyone sane takes off to Europe or Canada, you're basically leaving this country in the hands of wackos.
Like it hasn't been for 6 years?
70:You have thirty days til an election, and then six months to see if the election did any good, and then five years to take over the Party. I see nothing wrong with giving Katherine and the Liberals/Democrats thirty days.
I don't want to start a fight, but I fear Liberals will always say we just didn't work hard enough, the System is fine, it is our fault if the System isn't working, for not having enough faith. Liberals are saying that forty years after the Vietnam War.
Listen to her. And Burke & Kaufman and Berube.
83: Fair enough. But things could get much, much worse.
78: Fair enough. I'm talking about today, right now, as things currently are. I make no claims on behalf of my fellow easily-frightened honkies as to what would go down in such scenarios and do not feel qualified to make predictions for good or ill.
Ogged, see, you're already talking yourself out of it.
Actually doing stuff always starts in a muddle. You don't know anything about prisoners rights, so you pick up a book and you learn from scratch, and when you have read it, you make an appointment with someone who knows something and you ask them your questions. Then, you draft a letter, or a motion and it is wrong so you do it again. You think it is pointless the whole time, but you do it anyway. And it goes on like that for years, until suddenly a reporter calls you because you are the expert.
If you were serious, you would propose a list of things that you think a smart group of people could get done in three years. They would be concrete*. Then, you would talk endlessly about which one to do and finally pick one. Then, you would take on tasks and set deadlines, and require of each other that you meet them. There isn't a better way to do it.
Also, I may be hopelessly idealistic and I don't take on huge issues, but when I decide to solve them, I do.
*You worrried about being interned, Ogged? Get a federal law passed making it illegal to intern Mexican bloggers. Concrete.
79 -- Yes, lawyers are still sought.
One of the great things about the arctic, for example the Yukon, is that while you don't have a lot of species of anything, you have enormous numbers of each species. So you can see enormous herds of lemmings and moose and char and rabbits and so on. Especially mosquitos.
Lemmings and moose and char and rabbits do not herd. Moose especially do not get along well with each other because they're quite crabby.
Mosquitos do herd, however, so much so that you can barely see through the cloud. And that's why the winters are so nice.
People who (a) can speak middle eastern languages and (b) can get a security clearance (US citizen, not a felon, etc.) are also needed. They should email me too.
ogged, it's incompatible with mobility, but maybe you could get a law degree. You'd be a good lawyer, certainly, and it doesn't sound like you're totally committed to your job or your city.
Sure the policy jobs at HRW and Amnesty are reserved for lawyers but those lawyers can't do their jobs without people like IT guys.
I second 88.
It really does make you feel earnest and uncool, though.
I was using hyperbole, sarcasm, and litotes. Arctic environments make up for lack of species diversity with large numbers of whatever it is. Tropical environments are the opposite, a tremendous diveristy of species but you scarcely ever see the same thing twice.
Did you ever canoe down the Yukon river to Mosquito Flats, d-p-u? Good times...
Also, we can't let Ogged move to Canada. All of the energy he'll use to heat his house will speed up global warming.
ogged, it seems to me that the object of your crticism in these posts is precisely the attitude that killed the reading groups. So maybe that's not a fair objection to Megan's idea.
I really do want to be part of the show. The problem is, ogged is contrarian. We should pretend to be disinterested, and then he'll lead us.
from what I've seen from my fellow citizens, only a small minority are going to give a shit if "the unthinkable" starts happening.
Ogged, for what it's worth, I would write two, maybe three posts decrying your illegitimate detention, though the last one would probably note that I feel bad for being so strident and that I could be wrong. Then baa and I would start arguing over who gets your cds.
Did you ever canoe down the Yukon river to Mosquito Flats, d-p-u?
Didn't do any canoeing at all, primarily because so many people kept dying doing that while I was there. Usually sweepers and logjams were the cause, but there were also surpirse encounters with big angry bears.
But I helped a friend with her 20 acre homestead outside the spraying area in Whitehorse a couple of times, and the skeeters were horrific.
Carcross is okay, though, lots of wind.
I'm glad you like that area, d-p-u, because that's near where the sleepover will be.
...because that's near where the sleepover will be.
I know, I wanted to reasure the guests.
I have no problem being earnest about this, but I'm confident that any Unfogged Collective Action would be a miserable failure. I think the do little stuff and let if build advice is good. Other advice is welcome.
Tia, I have vowed never to become a lawyer, so there's that. And the debt.
People who (a) can speak middle eastern languages and (b) can get a security clearance (US citizen, not a felon, etc.) are also needed. They should email me too.
That could be me, CC, but needed for what? You're going to put us all in camps, aren't you?
Step one, ogged is to shut the door on the Census dude.
I'm much more afraid of angry bears than indefinite detention. It would take a lot to change that.
Also, I just looked, and I see that your reading group tried starting out with Being and Time. Jesus Christ, no one wonder it petered out. Believe me, it's a hell of a lot easier to find evidence of underreported human rights abuses by the administration on google than to get through Heidegger
CharleyCarp, where are you talking, locationwise?
and people *really* should email Charley if they fit any of those descriptions, as he will have better and more concrete suggestions than I have. Okay, off to run errands.
Also, Ogged, w/r/t Canada, the person you need to worry about isn't yourself as much as your mom. You could probably become a Canadian (or other) citizen if push came to shove but many of those countries have age cutoffs because they want people who will breed and pay into social services, instead of older people who would use their nice socialized health care systems. My parents were lamenting that when we were in Australia (my mother likes to make occasional empty threats to leave the US) -- even if she was serious about leaving, nobody would take her.
If my mom had to leave, Becks, she'd just go back to Iran.
I'm confident that any Unfogged Collective Action would be a miserable failure.
Genuinely... why? You can never never claim that it is because Unfogged doesn't have the resources and access. Unfogged is fucking smart and rich.
Because an internet structure isn't a good one for holding people accountable? I could see that.
Because it would degenerate into cock jokes? That may be true, but it would be shameful.
Because there would be times when people would trickle off and you would be working on shit by yourself? That's always true. They'll come back when you get in the papers and say they were there all along.
Look, you linked to Susan's post yourself. You are more willing to move than you are to try to work with your invisible friends on earnest, hard shit. Last week, you (broadly) were all in tears, calling your Congresspeople at the last minute, saying you would do anything to change this. When you care enough to change stuff like this, you do it by sincerely trying.
It seems to me that if we had started with the Summa Theologica the reading group would have done better. I'm sure that Kotsko would agree, unless he was in his annoying mode.
The problem people have with the Summa is that they always start with the abridged version, which doesn't have the richness of the complete version.
111 - I was just trying to think of non-Iran options in case the US happened to be bombing it at the time. If things get that bad here, I imagine our government will be making life really bad there.
I think it would be harder for my mom to be here than there, if the US was bombing Iran.
Megan, I think it's mainly because people don't have time for other commitments, and whatever they do here will always come last. It's easy to dash off comments here, and it seems like no one here does anything else, but that's not the case.
hey, megan is right on.
small things that diligent web-based communities can do: collections of links, timelines, chronologies. Collections of arguments (see, e.g. Scientific Americans 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense for an example).
Make information more easily available to people who want to be informed. Counteract the Limbaughs.
I just heard a really pathetic NPR interview with Paul Weyrich, a right-wing heavy. He said that Denny had talked to him this morning, and now he thinks Denny shouldn't resign, because he was never informed about the misdeeds. The interviewer never said: so you are saying that Boehner is lying? The interviewer didn't have the facts at her finger-tips, so she let this guy slide.
You know, it ain't huge, but it's something doable.
77: Why not stuff a few envelopes while you're waiting for inspiration to dawn?
I think I have to take Megan's side here. We're having an interesting issue at work, because it used to be that we had so many interesting and important problems that you could work on what you wanted, and it would help the company. Now, we also have a lot of boring but important problems, so working on what you want to do doesn't cut it any more. The shift from "what I want to do" to "what needs to be done" is a hard one to make, but it's got to be done.
Or maybe it's more useful to think of it as writing a dissertation - I've heard that the key to getting that done is to ensure that you write something every day, no matter how banal.
oh, one last thing: never underestimate peer pressure.
I am with Megan that there is a high degree of weenie-tude in evidence here. There are like a zillion exceptionally close congressional and senate races this year. The liklihood of effecting substantial congressional change has not been higher for a decade. Before you all move to Canada or Luxemberg or some other gaywad soccer-playing place, why not contribute $ or time to the Democrats in the PA-6 or PA-7 races (for instance). Hell, even someone as apathetic as me could find time to drive down to Connecticut and deface some Lamont signs. Surely the passionate folks here can do more. Sheesh!
(dibs on the Journey, Labs)
That's the same as saying that people are only willing to be advocates and activists when it is their paid career, 'cause the rest of their time is taken. I mean, if that is true of the Unfogged Project, that'll be true of any activism.
You're totally right that time is scarce, and it is hard to motivate to get abstract things done. But, it is mildly easier when your internet friends are counting on you. And your internet friends are saying they feel a need to DO something. There isn't a much better option for DOING things on a casual basis if the choice is throw yourself into it completely to get the juicy assignments from Amnesty International or offering an hour or two to stuff envelopes. I don't know of any venues where you get to do the good work with a spare couple hours in a month.
I'll drop this soon, because I don't think I'm convincing people. But I'm not feeling hopeless and lost, and that's because I work on the avenues where I want change and see results.
117 and 121 - I meant more than doing what you already like to do - collate information and put it on the internets or give money.
I meant picking a project with a concrete outcome, like one specific congressional race or one specific law you want passed or one specific prisoner to free, and using Unfogged's skills to work through the tasks it takes to get it done.
I've been giving money. You can make phone calls for John Hall, a Democrat running against a Republican incumbent in NY's 19th district, here.
I run into the time thing -- despite the amount of time I spend fooling around here, I really don't do anything else but work, and spend less time than I should with my family.
I never said I was above it, B, and I'm volunteering in VA in advance of November, and I'm sure I'll be put to task doing exactly that. But I don't think GOTV for November corresponds exactly with doing something about the terror trial legislation.
I'll split the difference between ogged and Megan (without reading the mass of recent comments, so I could be wrong) and say baa is right. If you want to make things better, help Democrats win. But the structure for doing that is largely already in place. So donate and/or volunteer. Maybe you end up being targeted about it. Sort out the people who are most likely to be the ones who will care if there are camps, and help them and their political agents.
Not very satisfying, but it's really the only thing to do. On the plus side, it doesn't require a hell of a lot of committment.
I just heard a really pathetic NPR interview with Paul Weyrich
I heard that, too. Appalling. She also only weakly challenged him when he started going into his "homosexuals are abnormally preoccupied by sex" routine.
Megan, sign me up!
My wife and I participated in the big Move On call-a-thon last weekend, which was pretty cool, and which was working to influence (at least) one PA congressional district. I'd (we'd) happily do more. We're going to do what we can locally to beat Chafee in November, too.
However, time schmime, if my cool internet friends decided to band together to do some good, I'd happily donate my slackoff time and any relevant skills I possess.
Part of the problem would be the lack of role models to emulate in this situation, no? It seems when we study history we're inclined to emphasize only the most dramatic/tragic stuff, to the extent that it's very hard to think of instances where things almost got reallyreallyreally bad, yet disaster was somehow averted. Maybe happy endings are too boring or something. I hope they're not just too rare to remember.
Anyway, I guess what I'm wondering is if anyone can point to a country that started creeping toward fascism, but then managed to somehow step back from the brink. For those of us in the "what can I do?" boat, I'm thinking it might be fruitful to study how such a feat was accomplished.
As a federal law clerk I am essentially forbidden from volunteering in any meaningful way on any of these things. But I'm keeping hold of CharleyCarp's email from 91, and if you don't mind, CC, I'll be contacting you in a couple of months. I hope to have time on my hands from late January on.
Unless everything's all better by January, of course. In which case I will be too busy riding my magical flying pig.
People, I only said I didn't think that doing something through Unfogged was the way to go, not that I thought anything else was a bad idea.
FWIW I've been watching the folks that are trying to keep the Supersonics in Seattle and I have to say that they are an impressive example of what a volunteer amateur association can accomplish. They benefit both from having a clear sense of purpose (keep the team from moving) and from having a couple of people leading the effort who have been able to put an enormous amount of time and passion into the project. I think that's a good formula for using the internet to coordinate collective action.
But I don't think that Unfogged is any worse than any other way. All groups start out with a bunch of people wanting to do something, and then a few do most of the work and farm some stuff out to people who can take on tasks. Someone does project management and watches deadlines. The work generates itself once you know what you are doing.
And Unfogged is better in a couple senses - the people are bright and have access - and they are here now, saying how frustrated they are and if only someone would give them direction. So step up.
it would degenerate into cock jokes
This phrase is unintelligible to me. Surely anything that once was not a cock joke, that becomes a cock joke, has gone through a positive transformation, rather than a degeneration.
You're not going to convince me, Megan.
This is 'cause I'm an ENTJ, isn't it? I swear this always happens to me.
Anyway, I guess what I'm wondering is if anyone can point to a country that started creeping toward fascism, but then managed to somehow step back from the brink.
Have you read The Plot Against America?
If anyone wants to email me and chat about this, I'm putting a (slightly modified to foil spammers--you can figure it out) version of my address in this comment.
I might have some ideas for non-Farsi and non-Arabic-speaking non-lawyers....and I'll have better ideas in a few weeks.
136: ENTJ, sheepdog, tomato, tomahto.
135: I think it's important to emphasize, ogged, the critical importance of a core of one to a few people to put loads of effort into leading the rest of the people. I think that's both the problem with the reading groups and with Megan's proposed course of action. There are no posters here--or commenters for that matter--that have yet shown that will and dedication.
Which may be what you're saying. In which case, you'd still be wrong, because with the presence of such a leader, Unfogged would *become* the right venue.
This is 'cause I'm an ENTJ, isn't it?
Probably. I'm an INFP.
142 - And sell tickets, and give the proceeds to Amnesty International.
No no no. You guys wouldn't rally 'round my causes the way you are for habeus corpus. Strangely, you just aren't as excited over creating new regional parks in Sacramento. The blog leader has to believe, and want to do what y'all want to do.
The problem is the lack of an Unfogged size project. What I'm flailing around thinking about is "Get back Congress" or "Get these laws repealed", neither one of which is something that Unfogged is big enough to have much of an effect on.
If I could focus on something smaller, I'd be happy.
129:Yeah I have been thinking of that too. Eastern Europe? South Korea? The problem of coming up with retreats from authoritarianism are the US unusual circumstances, like being the Ulltra-superpower. Comparing us to Slovakia or the Ukraine or Belize won't help much.
132:Well, that is part of my argument with Katherine. Whether it is more useful to work within the Democratic Party and political establishment...
...or organize independent local political action groups and enterprises. Feminist, local issue, NGO's, whatever. It is not about storming the barricades, but moving your faith and resources away from traditional mainstream politics is a big step in itself. Grassroots organizing outside of the party structure is "dropping out."
For a while go with Katherine and Burke and Moulitsas.
what about a single congressional district*?
*for reasons similar (or identical) to Felix's, I cannot actively participate, except in non-partisan ways.
Yeah, I get hopeless too when I think about big scale stuff. That's why projects need very specific goals. But if they aren't intensely personal, it is hard to stay motivated for a small goal, especially when it would likely take a few years to get it done. That's why I like local politics.
148 continued:Because Katherine is interested in the detainees, she may not see a conflict, because Katherine and Charleycarp have little alternative to working withing the system, and almost directly with Party leadership.
But Moveon.org and Kos and the people who supported Lamont, all baby steps, have a different perspective. NARAL has bought into the Party completely, and probably needs a change of leadership. The conflicts that the Netroots has with the DC establishment are inescapable. If you buy into the system, the system owns you. That ain't so bad, they can help and get things done, but whatever happened to the Feingold censure motion anyway?
What I'm flailing around thinking about is "Get back Congress" or "Get these laws repealed", neither one of which is something that Unfogged is big enough to have much of an effect on.
Hell, "Reset Ogged's TiVo" took our hivemind two years.
And in the end, we had no effect on it.
unfogged could, seriously, pool time and resources to make an impact in one or two congressional elections.
By means of putting on a big show! Let's do it, kids!
That's a great idea, Andy! I've got some costumes!
I thought it was Mickey who always put on shows, and Andy who made incomprehensible rants about how the world no longer makes any sense.
Either one of those will work, really.
Is there something you'd like to tell us, Becks?
156: Annoyingly enough, the character Mickey plays in those movies is named Andy Hardy.
Well then the stars are aligned: we must put on an incomprehensible show about how the world is now incomprehensible. I can tap dance. That's sufficiently non-partisan I think.
Okay, but just to be safe you should wear a bag over your head.
I can juggle three objects.
FOR LIBERTY, I should have added.
With the bag on my head, my act will symbolize the perilous dance of torture, teetering here and there, and eventually falling straight into the abyss.
Jackmormon's act will symbolize the absurdity of an administration that keeps so many priorities in the air.
We've been sitting on a gold mine.
Ack, I can't check right now, IDP. If you sent it to my jackmormon1790 address, it may have bounced. So, so sorry.
Just wanted to make sure you had the gmail address, and not just the webpage, if you wanted.
32. FWIW Joshua Speed was my great- great uncle, (his sister was my grandfather's grandmother).
I would not necessarily take McManus' word for it about what I think. Come on Bob, I'm going to a teach in to moderate a panel tomorrow, and one of the panelists spent a lot of the 1970s on the FBI most wanted list.
It might make sense to focus on Congress for the next month. After that, as far as smaller scale goals....the legislation that comes to mind is S. 654 and H.R. 952, the two rendition bills. Partly because that's still the aspect I know best, but more because: (1) Hamdan didn't do much good with rendition, and the godawful law last week didn't do much harm; (2) the Democratic caucus seems to have learned about Maher Arar last week. So it's a bit less hopeless than going directly after the law that just passed.
A case involving one particular prisoner that I don't think has gotten nearly enough attention is Shawqi Omar....
I can understand why ogged does not want his involvement in this to be herding cats and feeling like a big nag in the process.
one of the panelists spent a lot of the 1970s on the FBI most wanted list
Bill or Bernadette?
haha-- you are from Chicago, aren't you? Bernadine. I will NOT be bringing up her days underground on the panel, of course.
Bernadine. Brenadette is the Saint terribly mistreated byMother Marie Therese.
A common mistake.
I can understand why ogged does not want his involvement in this to be herding cats and feeling like a big nag in the process.
So, I'm not one of the big machers around here or nothin', but I have a relatively decent amount of free time (since I currently loathe my job), and no disinclination to herd cats or be a big nag. If some subset of people here decide that letting our powers combine for the greater good were to happen, I'd be thrilled to be involved.
If there were a project and I understood it, I would be happy to do the project management parts.
Were there an organized effort, I would gladly do what I could.
You could make a wiki, sort of like the Flu Wiki. (I would've said "we," but I'm not a regular commenter here.) It's probably not the most useful or substantive thing to do, but at least it's easy.
INTP here.
I fear that ogged is right, but I wish that Megan were right.
I've done some volunteer work in Massachusetts, but right now, I have almost no control over my schedule. I wanted to volunteer for Deval Patrick's campaign, but I couldn't commit to anything, because my schedule changes all of the time. I'd love to find something that I could do in a distributed, open source sort of way.
I'm meeting this guy next week and we're going to brainstorm ways I could get involved. If any useful ideas pop up, I'll be sure to share.
Cool. Looking forward to hearing about it, Susan.
I hate being and feeling so perfectly useless: no money, no relevant skills, no irrelevant skills to speak of either, no transportation, no ideas about what I or anyone should do. I live in a broken city, where pretty much everyone has more immediate political concerns. All I have is one vote in a district gerrymandered past any possibility of making a difference in a state that isn't by any stretch of the imagination "swing."
That's a beautifully written comment, L.
You're still a minor, aren't you?
Well, it was a beautifully written comment.
If I was a minor I wouldn't even have that sad little one vote. But I'm nowhere near 1/2 + 7.
Ogged plans to run for Congress some day.
L., I'm really glad you got out of the mines. That's not life dor an intelligent person like yourself.
Don't you go oppressing her with your outdated subjunctivity, old man.
190 was to Ben. Emerson is free to oppress L. any way he pleases.
I was thinking "minor" as in "under 21," but I think you're right that 18 is the legal line.
There are several legal lines. It all depends what kind of delinquency you're looking to encourage.
I don't think 21 has any significance other than as the legal line for alcohol, which is something of a polite fiction in New Orleans anyway.
Yeah, alcohol is pretty much it for 21. Everything else is 18.
This is unfogged in a nutshell. Start with plans to leave the country or make a heroic last stand for liberty, end in the steamroom.
What better place to make such a heroic last stand than the steamroom itself? After all, as the birthplace of our nation, it has great symbolic value.
The sauna, like the log cabin, came to Delaware in 1638 with the Finns and Swedes.
"Claudia's from Harlem, she warned it wouldn't do no good
Sitting with your safe friends while you talk of brotherhood.
You backbar revolutionaries only talk about what to do
You end up too drunk on your theories to ever see them through."
I post this not as criticism, but as caution.