Huh. Interesting. You use "Best, Becks" with your friends? Seems a little formal. I guess it depends on what kind of friends we're talking about. With most of my friends I will sign my email with a nickname or with my initial (just one). Something about that conveys a kind of familiarity that I like, like if they received a typed letter from "s." they would know exactly who it was from.

I hardly ever use closing greetings in emails, except to professors or employer-types, where I use a "Thanks;" or occasionally "Sincerely."

I started corresponding with someone recently who signs all his emails "Warmest Wishes," and it keeps catching me off guard.

"Best, X" is definitely how my advisor signs his (curt, cold, and vaguely threatening) emails.

You might as well by signing your emails,
"I could crush you if I cared to, Becks." It'd be about the same.

Is "All best" any better?

I was always thrown off when I received letters from lawyers signed "Yours truly." It ought to be "Yours until you stop paying me."

I think 1 gets it pretty much Exactly Right.

Using a single initial alone seems pretty much standard practice among people of a certain age. "Best" in any form is somewhat demeaning, as if you're writing an email to a child, and "thanks" is for letters traveling in the opposite direction on the power scale. "Sincerely" should be reserved for complete strangers.

Ooh, 5 is right. Best goes down, thanks goes up.

I sign all of mine with a 28-line .sig file including quotes from my favorite songs and novels and ASCII art of a kitten sleeping.

From the article: "Warmest regards"? "xoxo"? Seriously?

"Best" could seem rude or overly formal, but I don't think it has to. In context, yours are probably fine, Becks. Unless your emails are curt, cold, and vaguely threatening, I suppose. If so, then you might want to switch to "You're the best! Love, Becks," for some bonus cognitive dissonance.

With friends, I've been known to use variations on "hearts, flowers, and small fuzzy animals," but then, I'm kind of a jerk.

One of my advisors uses a different sig each time, all of them absurdly warm, "Most assuredly yours," and the like. Every time I get an email from him, my little hand covers my heart and I say "Aw!" If we had a different relationship, I suppose I'd think it was creepy. But it has made me think about my sigs and how impersonal they are.

Just as long as you don't devolve into "Hugs, Becks" or "XXXOOO, Becks"...

Isn't there enough angst in the world without twits from the NYT trying to make people feel socially inadequate about their emails??? If all the time spent fretting about how to sign off online conversations were spent on something productive, we'd all be watching Karl Rove announce he was going into rehab because 'twas the demon drink that made him sodomise all those sheep. [Well, OK, that doesn't necessarily follow, but we'd be having more fun. Big, goofy, yummy M-fun, with lots of champagne and dancing.]

I tend to sign with my initials or not at all, secure in the knowledge that most people are bright enough to read the header and figure out who's typing. My friends know how I feel about them; if I'm not excoriating them or praising them for some particular, they assune I like them, wish them the best and am sincere in hoping that they are having a good Tuesday, without my being explicit. [Business emails are, of course, different. They tend to start with "Dear Time-Warner, you wretched lot of inefficient, microcephalic sods" and end with "may a camel spit upon your issue"]

I like to dispense with the greeting and signature altogether. In formal correspondence, I normally sign off with a hearty "Fuck you."

And then there is this fine NYT article about etiquette (did apo already link it?) which seems oh so suitable, somehow.

11 s/b:

,clown."

slol, I don't know if that qualifies as an "article about etiquette." Unless you're trying to tell us something.

Reading that article introduced me to the word flâneur, with which I had not been previously acquainted. I'm taking it as my middle name.

Wouldn't it be better if the Times just stopped doing these culture pieces altogether?

5 makes me feel I need to reevaluate my signatures even more than the original post. "Thanks" is for going up the power scale? I always thought it was nicely flexible -- cordial for peers but with a nice whiff of condescension for people who work for me. (Thanks for doing this, as if you had a choice.)

(I stole "thanks" from my mentor and always assumed the latter was why she was using it with me.)

Maybe 5 isn't so much descriptive as normative. That's how I think of things, at least.

I always thought it would be awsome to e-mail my students about their homework assignment, and sign off with x's and o's.

Also, I have a student (18 yr old, precalculus) who signs his e-mails to me "Love, Chad". Not ingratiating himself by asking for extra credit, either. More like:

"Sorry I missed class all week. I'll get the notes.

Love, Chad."

Reading that article introduced me to the word flâneur, with which I had not been previously acquainted. I'm taking it as my middle name.

Are you trying to tell me something?

I have "Best" worked into my autosig, which is something people realize, I think, after corresponding with me more than once. At the very least, they should. Why spend all this time thinking about how to close an email when all its important bits are in the body?

I could crush you then eat pancakes,

Scott

Crush me to sprinkle on the pancakes? Like red pepper? I'm lovely on latkes.

I still believe in the .signature file with a stupid quotation (in the Age of Gmail, it's a simulated .signature file, but the principle remains the same). At the moment this means that all my emails are signed thus:

--
Ben w-lfs-n
"However, identifying what we call 'time' or even 'space', which I shall mention soon, is a very difficult problem, and a philosopher would say that it is an extremely annoying subject."
(Soseki Natsume, "The Philosophical Foundations of Literature")

That's dash-dash-space, so your better mail clients can strip it auotmagically!

Crushed skin pancakes.

20: maybe that M. LeB takes diacritical marks seriously?

Well, "I could crush you then use you to garnish my pancakes" feels so cold and informal.

Back when I was on the Pynchon-l, one kind of weird (but very nice) guy signed all of his mails to the list "Love, (name)" -- How do you guys distinguish between signing correspondence directed to one person vs. broadcast? Does anybody still use Listservs?

Oh, I have an email signature, too, but I usually forget that it exists, and when I do remember, I think about getting rid of it.

--
"the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."
-f. scott fitzgerald

Actually, I'm still on Pynchon-l.

20, 25: I wasn't reading the site that day; it was my birthday.

But I do take diacritical marks seriously, although let it be noted that I still don't have any patience for ben's gratuitous dieresis crap.

Humbug, I say. I don't use a sign-off, unless I'm feeling particularly friendly, when it's "Best." Ditto no greeting, unless it's more formal, when I'll use the person's name.

.sig files of the sort w-lfs-n uses are narcissistic and annoying. And "xoxo" freaks me out.

I'm still on Pynchon-l.

I'm reading Against the Day.

32: As am I, only slowly (30 pages a night since Monday). So far, fun but disposable. You getting the same impression?

31: Agree that w-lfs-n is a gigantic ass. It's a shame that women seem to love him so, because it makes legitimate and important criticism seem like mere carping.

34: We don't love him for his .sig file, you know. It's his gigantic music collection that draws us like flies.

So are y'all saying I should go back to my previous quotation ("In the gourmet's world, on the other hand, the stimulus of raisins,
not of butyric acid, is accented.")?

Also, Kwame had 15 last night. Just an FYI for everyone who wants to get on the bandwagon while there's still space.

36: Sounds to me like there is no hope for making Tim and Ogged love you. Resign yourself eternally to the company of adoring females.

34: It's the bad boy syndrome. Surely the gigantic ass is but a facade, and I, I alone, will be the one who can . . . uh . . . penetrate it to the soft core within?

You know, Tim, that would have been a lot easier to write if you'd called Ben something other than an ass.

You getting the same impression?

Ask Again Later....

39: I know. I keep envisioning Ben as a rejected Terry Gilliam animation.

39: I've watched you with my one brown eye…

for people I know, just 'm'. For people I don't know, 'Regards'. I used to use 'Best', but I kept asking myself, 'Best what?'.

"Best Wishes," no? I think my British friends have it right: "Cheers." It's three bears!

The rule in my chosen field for professional commuication (as I discovered when hustling for postdocs) is

Regards,

or, less commonly

Best regards,

I hate it and will only use it when hustling for jobs, for which it feels quite appropriate. For my own personal communication I usually just sign off as

-nl

or

later,

-nl

.sig files that contain Wit deserved to die with Usenet.

I've never understood why women like w-lfs-n, but then I've never understood why they like men generally.

That said, my autosig looks like most academic's:

Best,
___________________________
Scott Eric Kaufman
Department of English
University of California, Irvine
___________________________

Why would anyone think that cold? However, I think this one works better:

Cheers,
___________________________
Scott Eric Kaufman
Department of English
University of California, Irvine
___________________________

Now I'm drinking to your health, perfectly acceptable in all situations.

Keep in mind, Kotsko, most of them have never met me.

--
"Keep in mind, Kotsko, most of them have never met me." - Beowulf, Anonymous

Really, Ben? How many of us haven't met you? You've met just about all the ladies here, no?

I would hate to make a list for fear of forgetting one of the unforgettable wymmyn of unfogged, but it's true; some of you have never had the dubious pleasure of my company, and some all too briefly.

some all too briefly

Sounds like a personal problem, ben.

(Is supposed to bring to our attention the unintended alliteration in 48?)

(Is 49, that is.)

Citing the author named "Anonymous" drives me crazy. Thankfully, most modern documentation styles disallow such indulgences.

But Adam, at the time when Beowulf was composed, people didn't have names! (In it, of course, people have names—its success was one of the reasons names came back into style.)

One can only hope that comments like 56 are not among the reasons that the chicks dig Ben.

Really? I actually thought, "now that's funny and kinda cute."

Not, of course, as cute as my own personal kitty.

59: is anything?

Well, no.

Damn, Bitch, I thought I was gonna get through this whole day without thinking about your kitty cat.

True statements that are amusingly double-entendreish in context:

My kitty is a drama queen.
My kitty gets around.
My kitty knows the neighbors better than I do.
My kitty is bossy.
My kitty often pretends to be hungry even when she's just been fed.
My kitty is cute, cute, cute.
My kitty's playfulness belies her age.

Hey, if I were to put up a personals ad, would you guys help me write it? You seem to know a lot about that kind of stuff.

64 deserves a thread of its own

63: thanks, Bitch, now how am I going to get this smile off my face?

64: I am really good at personals ads. The trick is to be just slightly off-putting enough to the people you wouldn't want to date while still easy-going and friendly enough to the people you'd like to date. Also, for guys, the messages you send to the ladies whose profiles you like is more important than your profile itself.

That is, this is my theory of internet dating, that it's more about culling the herd to the acceptable few and then going out with all of them, whereas Tia's MO is more like, be attractive to as many people as possible and sort them out by their behavior on the first date. That is way too stressful for me, as I hate bad dates.

For men, a profile that demonstrates a self-conscious sense of humor about the form itself (thereby, incidentally, subtly putting down the competition) tends to appeal. IMHO.

66: You can't. One of the special charms of my kitty is that even at her pestiest, she's completely adorable.

While originally introduced just for B, the kitten-code could be corralled for any commenter's convenience. Does anyone want to be exposed to adorable kittenness on posting a comment? I might make it so that it only happens a certain fraction of the time.

67: Thats actually a good question in general --- is it better to have a large number of low-expectation dates that you aren't particularly invested in, or a small number that you really hope will work out.

I'd additionally recommend being really specific about what kind of dating/relationship you're looking for without implying that you're looking for the opposite of whatever baggage you're carrying around. Like "I'd like to finally go out with someone who isn't shallow and actually likes sex" is a big turn-off, while "I think it would be fun to go out with someone who reads, thinks, and talks, who is kind to children and small animals, and who enjoys giving and getting in bed" sounds like someone who might be fun to date.

71: ben, is this proposal your attempt to save the artsy dead tree bullshit from the inevitable wrath of kitty? You propose in vain, good sir.

To follow my own thought, I think I know a fair number of people who fall into two camps. Either they generally like the process of dating (i.e. like meeting new people, enjoy the going out itself), or they view it as a necessary evil.

72: I was going to say that this is an individual issue, and people should go with whatever technique they prefer.

But in the online dating world, I think (straight) men generally have to cast a wider net than (straight) women. (Meaning: Have to send out more e-mails/make more contacts in order to get the same number of in-person dates.) So I don't know.

53, 54: Yes, but weighted and mixed alliteration, not the vanilla stuff.

I actually really really liked dating. I loved meeting strangers, getting drinks, talking, having stranger-sex. That part was great, and I met lots of brilliant, interesting guys in the process, some of whom are still friends. But the reason I enjoyed it so much is that the bad dates were a rarity. I think I went out with only three guys in a whole year of Nerve dating who were one-drink stands.

a personals ad, would you guys help me write it?

You can use mine, Adam.

Oh, also, don't lie about your looks. A short bald guy, for example, can be perfectly attractive if he's not clearly insecure enough to post an old pic and lie about his height. Insecurity alone sinks any date.

In fact, I used to post an old pic of myself in which I weighed a bit more, wasn't wearing makeup, and had an uncool haircut. All the guys I went out with were surprised that I was cute and, additionally, wouldn't have minded had I not been because they were into my brains. This seems the ideal recipe for a good date, to me.

64: I thought that ogged had already basically done that in this post.

As for the original topic, no sign-off is the best sign-off; anything beyond "Best" or "Regards" suggests an overly generous nature, and only invites people to take advantage.

The tree might not be dead. It might be dormant.

SEK -- is Ch/arles Alb/ert still posting? What about K/ai Lore/ntzen? These are two people I would love to hear opinions of Against the Day from. How far along are you? (and you, slol?) I am around p. 50 and thinking, this is getting great. I think the first 40 pages or so were a prank trying to get Mich/iko Ka/kutani and his ilk to set the novel aside as a pretentious waste of time. Did you see The Great Quail's "review"? Very nice.

75: I'm more of a "necessary evil" kind of guy.

Here's my initial draft: "Are you equally attracted to insanely possessive and emotionally stand-offish men? Have I got a bargain for you!"

Oops -- sorry -- MK is a gurl.

Ka/kutani's a lady, one with very thin arms, methinks. She hasn't liked a single book over 800 pages ever.

Ka/kutani's a lady

Yeah that's what I was saying in 85.

one with very thin arms, methinks. She hasn't liked a single book over 800 pages ever.

Maybe they're too heavy?

Thanks for making that explicit, Ben.

88: That's what I was saying in 86.

87: I didn't refresh. Pwned.

I think (straight) men generally have to cast a wider net than (straight) women. (Meaning: Have to send out more e-mails/make more contacts in order to get the same number of in-person dates.)

Yeah, this supposition ensures its own truth. What's the official term for such a thing? Anyway, what happens is that men randomly jump on pretty much any woman who shows up, which means that women very quickly learn to be standoffish, which means that the men have to be more aggressive, and so on. It's the sucky thing about online dating/flirting--the way that it totally reinforces the most sexist ideas about how men and women should act.

Which doesn't mean I'm disagreeing--more like agreeing, but regretfully.

Maybe I just need to go to the bar with a good gay wingman to help me break the ice. Given that I go to a theological seminary, obviously I know a million gay guys.

91: The official term is "Sir Luckless Woo-All." It's a Ben Jonson epigram.

"Sir Luckless, troth, for luck's sake pass by one:
He that woos every widow will get none."

Any Kotsko personal ad should without question prominently feature a link to The Weblog.

Maybe you just need to be gay.

How serious are you about the profile, Adam? I'm sure the Unfoggeteriat would be happy to help.

91: I'd have to agree. It comes out in other ways too --- a couple years ago we had an interesting conversation in a largish group who had almost all tried the online thing at one point or another. One thing that appeared normative was the idea that guys should pay for these services, and women need not (at least the ones that operate on `credits'). It's like the singles bar `buy you a drink?' stuff just quietly transferred over. It also came out that experiences were very gendered.

96: I thought we were helping.

I don't know how serious I am.

97: It's true; I never paid for the service and just crafted my profile to elicit notes from the kind of guys I'd be attracted to. The weird thing is that, meeting people IRL, I am pretty aggressive and have done almost all the asking-out myself, so it's not like I'm submissively waiting. Online, I think those gendered differences are even more pronounced.

See now there's your problem -- the chicks like a man who knows how serious he is.

101 -> 99 (and my 100! bragging rights shamelessly pre-empted by A White Bear. Alack.)

I've found someone for Adam.

Dude, she's definitely worth going out with once.

A match made in heaven, clearly.

83: I've seen Albert a few times of late, but I haven't opened that particular folder recently, since they were planning on having the book finished by Tuesday, whereas I'm most definitely not. (I can only squeeze in fun, non-dissertation related materials late-night. Writing and blogging? Easy! Devoting mental energy to something other than the dissertation? Painful!) I'm on 90, and it's been fun, but not thrilling.

I'm in the kind of mood right now where you could almost convince me to post something, but I'd get really stressed out and decide not to at the last minute.

Just remember, anything you post will likely be seen by the people who hate you most.

No suburbs.

What, she can't handle more than one at a time? And she says she's in shape...

107: You have nothing to lose but your pride. Go for it!

Pride, shmide. Write up some profile, spend your free time chit-chatting with other people on whatever site you've selected. It can't be any less productive than hanging out here.

It can't be any less productive than hanging out here.

I thought all the commenters were sleeping with each other?

Exactly.

My pride's not feeling up to any losses today.

Your pride wouldn't lose anything; you would lose you pride.

Au contraire -- my pride would lose me.

I can't believe you two haven't slept together.

I slept with F. Winston and he told me Adam's no good.

118: Foul calumny! I never slept with that scurrilous dyke-hound Kotsko!

Adam, is this your pride speaking?

97: The shift in gender experience and expectation was pretty pronounced in the group I mention too. One girl said it was pretty overwhelming. She's photogenic, conventionally pretty, and put up a photo with her first profile. She told us that the first day she ended up with a dozen emails or more, taking ages to go through, and the next day she tried their `chat' feature. I guess she picked a popular time of day, because she literally couldn't keep up with the 20+ people who messaged her right away. Gave up frustrated with the software and a bit intimidated in 15min. So after this story a guy in the group had his mind pretty much blown. He was a bit shy but perfectly presentable. Tells us that he tried the same service in the same city. Agonized over his profile, whether to put up a photo, which one. Spent a week or so going through profiles. Finally narrowed it down to three girls, spent his $$ to be able to send messages, and sent three carefully written emails. So at this point, the poor guy has invested hours and hours, right? Two of them never got back to him, and another did after a week to tell him `not interested'.

So he gave up in despair. Never occurred to him that these women might be wading through emails and chat messages etc. Although I do think it's a bit low to intentionally disregard someones `hello', who knows if they were just busy and he gave up too early?

Anyway, those were on the extremes, but pretty indicative of the gender difference in how they perceived the process.

Isn't the Cod his Self-Loathing?

Like he must punish himself?

But whom shall the lurkers sleep with?!

123: Only a seminarian could turn masturbation into an act of homophobic self-loathing.

People only comment when they're not getting laid. Therefore, everyone who isn't commenting is getting laid. I declare logic week.

wait, what did I do? what's a seminarian?

Seminarian : aryans :: virtuous pagans : christians

Should be "Seminarians", obviously.

I wouldn't be surprised if SEK's bizarre reaction to Codpiece will have killed this thread.

ITYM "I won't be surprised".

You mean to say the Cod isn't your Montagu Norman? What's the emoticon for sheepishly blushing?

That was funny and kinda cute, Ben.

128: so seminarians are Unitarians?

"seminarians", from semen and aryan, denotes the precursors or roots of Aryans. Similarly, virtuous pagans are (in some ways) antecedents of Christians.

135: I was just talking to the Chestnut on the phone about how this thread is doing pretty much nothing for getting Adam a date, mostly because of things like this.

Really? do the kids down at the seminary know you're calling them klan sperm?

136: If Adam could learn from ben's example, the ladies would be trampling each other to get to him.

Pardon me, ms. Bear?

138, 139: SEK is right. I thought Ben was misdirecting, but it turns out he's leading by example.

136: Right, Ben's charm is throwing the ladies off the track.

I'm flattered that you're talking about my neuroses on the phone.

Adam, you want a date? Maybe I could set you up with someone..

I also had a friend that I briefly thought about trying to set up with your roomate, but then he had to go and get himself a girlfriend.

141: Oh Adam, we all talk about your neuroses... didn't you know?

142: Maybe you should set me up. I'm obviously not going to be able to do this on my own.

What's she like? She's not a Christian, is she?

I actually don't have anyone particular in mind, but I'm thinking. And why on earth would I set you up with a Christian? I know better than that.

Rate your desired snark level in a woman, from 1 to 10.

I want a woman who will either (a) get my jokes without my explaining them or (b) not understand my jokes and not care. What I'm trying to avoid is being asked, "What do you mean?"

I think enough comments have been posted since then that I can say that the silence in response to 117 has been "eery."

I just always use 'Cheers, Matt'. As per 44.

At work it tends to be some variation on 'Hope that helps, Matt' since most of my work email involves answering questions for people.

147: sensible lad

That is a desideratissimum.

Ogged, did you not read 118?

147: Okay, but you have to meet her halfway. One of the problems with dating when you're used to a very tightly knit community (online or otherwise) is that any date must be treated like a n00b whom one wishes to cultivate. That is, she must either be offered jokes that her own reading and wit might lead her to be able to understand; otherwise you're expecting her to already be a resident of your own mind, which is not fair.

153: I left a dangling either. Please ignore.

What's there to be neurotic about Adam? They're not really better-looking than you anyway. Rely on ben's wit, my good man, and all will be well.

153: Oh, good point. No in jokes. And you have to like hers, or not care.

"Men thought that the men they were shown were more attractive to women than they really were."

What's this "really were" stuff? Is this some of that "attractiveness level" crap I hate so much? When will these silly evo-psych people stop assuming that there is such a thing as "attractiveness level"?

That's a tall order, dude. I think all my friends fall into the categories of a) taken b) batshit crazy c) too sweet for you.

On the subject of dating, I have a CL date tomorrow with an astrophysicist.

On the subject of dating, I went to my new dude's apartment after Thanksgiving dinner. He'd warned me that he was coming home without time to clean up. There was clean, folded laundry out, but so mess, so I didn't get what the deal was. Then I saw: WoW discs on his desk.

Isn't it batshit crazy just right for Adam?

What's "WoW"?

World of Warcraft?

World of Warcraft, right?

World of Warcraft.

Thanks, dial-up!

I like the three of you repeating "World of Warcraft". It adds cinematic emphasis.

Don't a lot of people play that?

157: I think that's just the poorly writing of the Economist article. What it means is "Men thought the men were more attractive than the women did." So no definition of "attractiveness," except as formulated by whatever intuitive criteria employed by the folks participating in the experiment.

That said, I was just sharing some ego-psychology pearls with the Zizekian for shits and giggles.

167: Yes, and I have no problems with it. But it was kinda cute that he felt the need to put them somewhere else while I was in the bathroom.

Does that make it less ominous?

Me to 167.

167: While claiming to be reading/studying/dissertating/spending quality time with their family, is the problem.

169 -- wait, are you saying they would normally be in the bathroom? Is World of Warcraft a masturbatory aid or something? I didn't even know people had computers in their bathrooms -- behind the times, I am.

Another reason he might have hidden them?

Ogged's right: crazy is right up Kotsko's alley. Actually, crazy and violent is right up Kotsko's alley, but just crazy will do. Set him up and make her blog it live.

173: Uh, no, just that they were there when we came into his room, and after I went to the bathroom, they were somewhere else.

Oh, I misread put them somewhere else while I was in the bathroom.

I have to say, it's slim pickins in the Chicago Craigslist W4M.

158c: You mean I would somehow be damaging to their sweetness?

117 has been responded to, non-ominously.

Also, I would say that my option (b) is actually a pretty reasonable threshold. Thinking I'm stupid and ignoring half of what I say is fine.

117 has been responded to, non-ominously.

Yeah, I missed it, gaylord.

ITYM "non-eerily".

I have to say, it's slim pickins in the Chicago Craigslist W4M.

Not so slim as the pickins on the peninsula section of the sf craigslist.

Wait, I thought all insecure academic types enjoyed being asked to explain their in-jokes.

It's quite possible that Craigslist is not the best place to find a date.

Thinking I'm stupid and ignoring half of what I say

How does "thinking I'm a troubled genius and being too intimidated to ask for clarification" work for you?

And every time I've browsed personals on Craigslist, in any city, I've remarked that all that wonderful online dating stuff that my friends talk about must be on some other site.

Some of the SF ads aren't bad. That said, once again, Ben, you're in school, the place is crawling with women--for the love of god, nut up, young man.

Oh gawd. I just realized that w-lfs-n's sure to reproduce. It is only the sure knowledge that the Apostro-kids will be around to keep the w-lfs-n pack in check that keeps me from giving in to despair.

This woman, for example, sounds totally normal and sane (and can spell).

186: I like to put a positive spin on things.

184: Most of my in-jokes are actually references to Seinfeld, rather than, say, Of Grammatology -- although if you can somehow work "that dangerous supplement" into a conversation, it's fucking hilarious.

It's ok, tim, I don't want to have kids.

In fact, now that I've successfully identified the song that two notes in the bassline of the first ten seconds of Steffen Basho-Junghans' "Late Summer Morning" called to my mind (I knew it was by Robbie Basho, but didn't know which, or if I were hallucinating—turns out it's "Dravidian Sunday"), I can die happy.

I liked Nerve a lot. It seemed to attract more people who are looking to date for fun and then see what happens, rather than meet for anonymous sex (CL) or plan lifetime commitments (Match, eHarmony, etc.). It was pretty telling, when there was a survey last year (on Slate, maybe?) of how many users of various sites end up married, Nerve responded that they don't keep stats like that because it wouldn't measure the "success" of the site.

"that dangerous supplement"

This is from which Jerry & crew bet they could abstain, right?

for the love of god, nut up, young man.

Give me a break. You survived cancer; that should translate into not just sex, but seriously freaky sex. Twin sex.

No asking for clarification!

190—indeed, and she's only a 40-mile drive away! And she's 29 and wants someone living in the city (which I plan to do next year, but am not currently doing).

Here's another good one (not for everyone, but seems pretty cool).

Bit old for Ben, I suppose.

190 wasn't so much for you, Ben, as an example of a decent CL ad.

197: Ben, it does seem unlikely that you can't find any horny grad students in PA.

I like this: "P.S. Please reply with a pic. I was hoping you would infer that from seeing my pic in the post, but I guess some of you are new to the 21st century."

that should translate into not just sex, but seriously freaky sex. Twin sex.

You have great insight, Timmy.

I guess some of you are new to the 21st century

We're all new to the 21st century, bitch!

Think she'd like that?

197: Ben, it does seem unlikely that you can't find any horny grad students in PA.

It certainly does seem unlikely that one couldn't find any.

I just started listening to dagger aleph's CD and the first track is fucking great.

204: I bet she would. Or you could send her an e-mail message in the form of a jumble. There's something about her that suggests m-fun.

Too bad we don't know your secret location, Timbot, or I think we could talk you into emailing this woman.

Since she's a Scrabble fan, you should ask her out with a personalized crossword puzzle!

Email is just the medium for communication between persons separated by an arbitrary distance, ogged. Tim's secret location is immaterial.

Scrabble seems more Ben-ish, and she's in his area.

I like 198 -- the only problem is that I don't have a "pic"! Plus she lives on the whole other side of the continent.

206 also applies to track 3.

Going out for a bit. One of you better have a date by the time I get back.

ogged is going out on a date, and he's not going to tell us about it?

Are you dissing Tim Buckley by omission, Clownæ?

I spiked (non-alcoholic) Southern Comfort egg-nog with vodka. What law have I violated and how will it help land me a date?

Huh, what do you mean? I'm talking about da's CD, not yours -- hers does not contain any Tim Buckley tracks. Track 2 of her tape is "The Beautiful Girl" by Fairouz, which I liked but did not react as strongly to as to #1 and #3.

damn.... so if I were complaining about being hopeless at dating people here would try and set me up?

...nah, i guess not.

Oh, I thought you had gotten a copy of the cd da got from me. I still haven't gotten my cd from da. In fact I had forgotten about it. Waaah.

Non-alcoholic SoCo exists? I think you righted a cosmic wrong.

People complain about dating problems here a lot. Has the advice they've received ever led to any actual sexual intercourse?

Oh now I see -- no da has not afforded me access to the disc you sent her. Alack, aday.

222: That's a damned good question, AWB, and we deserve to know the answer.

222: I also note, that's a different kettle of fish from dating problems and complaining about them here.

Anybody got the goods on the psychedelic images which Windows Media Player composes to go with audio CD's? I like them.

221: It does, apparently. Being from the South, I'd never seen it before--the good stuff and its accoutrements being segregated in the sister store I lacked the ID to enter. But here in California--where I can even buy spirits and liquors on a Sunday--they put it right next to the free-range organic egg-nog...

...and removed all the alcohol. So yes, righting a universal wrong. But doesn't mixing egg-nog with Southern Comfort sound, I don't know, disgusting?

222: No.

Well, I'm not sure that I've ever received advice per se.

No.

actually, Southern Comfort is pretty disgusting.

maybe that's just me though, after drinking most of a 40 in the back of a car one inlong 110 degree afternoon...

No

Ogged is completely right about the Chicago Craigslist ads, btw.

Damn -- 231 was supposed to be a joke where I signed Teo's name to a negative response to 222.

124, 126: The lurkers need to nut up.

158: I think (a) and (b) are actually pluses.

But the existence of non-alcoholic SoCo! I'm fascinated. It's like selling porn that's been edited to be safe to show around kids.

Which I don't think anyone does. I was just trying to think of a vice that cleans up badly.

234: Now I'll never get to go to an Unfogged meetup. Thanks, B.

235: Like stuffing a hurricane glass with Kool-Aid packets! "C'mon, kids, it tastes better in this unusually shaped cup...and yes, you're supposed to feel like that."

236: Uh, the 13-year-old I used to be begs to differ. When he spent the night at the house of a friend whose parents could afford cable, he saw exactly that for hours on end.

238: was it scrambled? We used to always catch my friend's little brother trying to watch scrambled porn.

239: No, it was just all from the neck up. Which, as every thirteen year-old knows, is were all the action is.

Right but cable soft-core is like pornography in that it is intended to tittilate; non-alcoholic Southern Comfort is unlike liquor in that it is not intended to intoxicate. 235 would require somehow modifying a pornographic work to remove the stimulating element.

Adam should watch and learn. This will kill this thread dead, just you wait and see.

Uh, 241 -> 238.

Oh. Now I read 240 and see that I was not understanding 238 when I composed 241.

Really, you guys should all write to dagger aleph (if you have not done so) and ask that she send you a copy of her mix CD. It is pretty incredible.

Right. The analogy calls for porn that's been edited so that all you get is the plotline.

"Oh hello, Cable Guy! Come in, I'll show you around and introduce you.......Bye now! See you soon!"

(and now I am feeling a tinge of guilt or embarrassment or something, about responding strongly and publicly to a mix CD when other people have sent me similar items and I have either not dug them or not broadcast my digging them. But whatever.)

I know, Clown. You told me privately that you loved the Cable Guy scene from the porn I sent you.

dagger aleph is a woman?! What am I doing e-mailing people off Craigslist?!

I coveted da first, Adam.

249 -- she is not local to you, unfortunately. But there are several Chicago-area Unfogged women you could hit on.

248 -- yeah I didn't want to blab that to the whole group, I thought we had something special going on. Thanks for dashing my hopes to the floor. Please, can I have my heart back when you're done with it?

249: Hell, for obvious reasons my brain always parsed "m. leblanc" as male until I learned better. There's hope for you yet.*

*Only not on Craigslist.

Please, can I have my heart back when you're done with it?

If you knew what he was doing with it, you wouldn't ask for it back.

Ew.

Fuckin A! Track 14 of da's CD is "Rock the Casbah" in Arabic! It's hard to imagine anything more fun.

Adam, you should know it's wrong to covet your neighbor's coveted. Says so right in Deuteronomy.

You could throw the cd off the roof.

252 - me too, because of the actor Matt LeBlanc, I think.

253 - wait, I'm a she.

for your enjoyment.

(Mick Jones is playing guitar.)

252 - somehow I missed the "for obvious reasons" part, so I had to state it.

This is the ad I answered.

261 -- one of these desires does not fit in with the others.

(Hm. Or maybe they just don't fit together severally.)

Yikes.

No, I think it's a pretty cohesive package.

long term?

Still -- I guess if you think you can make it work out with her, God bless you.

She did a nice job on the "drink too much", considering that she was both drunk and used other versions of the homophone. That's enough to justify answering a CL ad.

I'm sure Adam and the Artist Once Again Known as Prince will be very happy together. I expect an invitation in the mail any day now.

261: She sounds sweet, Kotsko. There's potential here.

I actually e-mailed her to tell her she might want to take down that ad, though it was posted yesterday, so she probably has 4,100 responses at this point.

She's 18. We all make relationship errors at 18.

AWB, what are you talking about? We all make rational decisions based on sound (albeit selfish) economic theory...wait, this isn't the Rand thread, is it?

For the record, the OED's standards are so, so slipping.

264 gets it exactly right.

274 also.

237: I mean for Adam.

Although Clown's 267 strikes the more appropriate note..

I meant "meant."

And here I thought you meant "meat".

I meat for no one.

261: We'll watch for you on Furman's website.

261: i want to be in ur craigslist postin ur n00ds.

258: Clown, I'm thrilled that you like the CD, but that video is terrible. Rachid looks ill in it, when normally he's hella hot.

(But I love that you're inspired to look this stuff up on YouTube!!!)

And:

she is not local to you, unfortunately

Eh, doesn't matter. I'm told I have "intimacy issues."

It's ok, tim, I don't want to have kids.

I was convinced of no single thing more strongly than that when I was your age, Ben. I also thought I was finished having them after each of the previous ones.

Maybe you're better at that sort of thing than I am, though. Clearly isn't my strong suit.

Unlike the rest of us?

286 was intended at 284, though obviously applicable to 285 as well.

I'm told I have "intimacy issues."

I'm pretty sure that's Chyck for "Pass," Kotsko.

see? apo's got intimacy issues too

I was convinced of no single thing more strongly than that when I was your age, Ben. I also thought I was finished having them after each of the previous ones.

Oh man, I sure remember those days. But two is plenty damnit. God I've got to get that vasectomy scheduled.

287: Huh. And all this time I was made to feel like a freak.

285 - They know what causes that now, Apostropher. I'm sure someone here would explain it to you, if you are sure you don't want any more kids.

289: awesome.

230: drinking most of a 40

Wait, a 40? I'm pretty sure Southern Comfort doesn't come in that denomination.

One of my friends called me out of the blue a few years back because at age 27, having been certain that he would never want children, he was finding himself suddenly fascinated by the idea of having children.

(This first sentence sounds like it could go interesting places, but no, he was just so astounded at discovering he wanted kids that he had to tell someone.)

They know what causes that now, Apostropher.

Something to do with the cable guy, but I'm not sure exactly what.

222 -- No man who's actually followed my advice remains un-laid. This is not inconsistent with the first part of 228.

I'm pretty sure that's Chyck for "Pass," Kotsko.

I just want to be admired from afar, scmt.

on the kids subject: I've known since I was 11 that I didn't want kids, and at 35 I still haven't changed my mind. I'm sure I made bets about this 15 years ago. I'm owed money, goddammit.

277: Good to know. Next meat, I'm there!

230, via 294: I can't believe I missed that. Yes, Southern Comfort is a blended whiskey, meant for mixing...in the pre-Katrina'd French Quarter.

297: we weren't talking about `professionals', CharleyCarp

295: It also happens the other way. I'm godfather to five kids, great with children, but now that I'm in spitting distance of 30, I don't want any.

The joy of the godparent/aunt/uncle role is vastly underrated.

If that's unclear, I was godfathered for my child-entertaining talents (there are advantages to being an idiot, don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise) back when I wanted kids, everyone expected me to raise a brood, but now I value my privacy and the ability to spend evenings with my wife watching America's Next Top Model marathons...

...and damn am I glad I picked up this handle. It's so, so, so liberating!

To wit: PK is currently using his new light saber to hit dominoes all over the living room.

now that I'm in spitting distance of 30

I had my first at spitting distance of 30. The second one was at 36, and this one will be at 38. I will never ever get to retire unless I start buying lottery tickets.

305: This is what happens when you only need four hours of sleep a night.

302: Yes! All of the diaper-changing, baby-sitting but none of the credit and/or riches when they're drafted out of high school by the New York Knicks. (By which I mean, one of my god-children is a monster whose parents both played college basketball and is likely to be +7 ft. tall and athletic. But will I get any of the largesse? Noooooo. Just because I'm too poor to visit every year and exist only as a birthday present every December 6th...

PK is currently using his new light saber to hit dominoes all over the living room.

Boy, there's stuff I'm sure glad happened while we were still renting. Like when my older one was about three she got up early on a Saturday, found an orange permanent marker, and went running around drawing on everything in sight. Ran around the carpet dragging the marker after her so it would leave a trail. Goodbye deposit.

304: Yep.

304: I don't have to be there for that, but damn it, I deserve something.

305: My wife's two months away from her qualifying exams. If I knocked her up now, I'd never hear the end of it. (Plus, as ben likes to say, she's hot and shouldn't bear children until she isn't. B., that's what ben says, don't blame this one on me.)

Also, I'm such a Jew, there's no way I'll ever have a kid until I can provide it a college fund and nest egg...which, given my job prospects, is just this side of never.

I'm pretty sure I never said that SEK's wife's hotness meant that she shouldn't bear children.

(By which I mean, one of my god-children is a monster whose parents both played college basketball and is likely to be +7 ft. tall and athletic.

Please don't joke about things like that.

311: It's implicit.

312: Why not? You banking on a godchild?

So...are we all waiting for someone else to say something? The comments were coming fast and furious and now there's this awkward silence.

I hate awkward silences.

Maybe they all finally found dates.

Children killed the thread, just like they kill marriages.

313: No. I'm deep into my yearly NBA fantasy, in which my team wins a championship at season's end. Joking about the existence of 7'+ athletes seems profane. (They aren't all that plentiful even in the NBA.)

Isn't your mom visiting, ogged? Some host.

Isn't your mom visiting, ogged?

Indeed she is. She's on the couch, a couple of feet away, reading. And I'm trying to break the server, behind Ben's back. All's right with the world.

316: Many things kill marriages. Don't ask me how I know.

For my part, I was cooking and eating dinner.

307: You never know. Keep it up with the good presents, visit more when they get older and will think you're cool, arrange for them to visit you (no parent is going to object), and they might just stick around when you're old and in a nursing home.

Many things kill marriages. Don't ask me how I know.

One of my sisters had a friend in jr. high who's parents were getting divorced. The mother told the daughter it was her fault. Good times.

As to the having kids while still hot, or not question, my advice is have the little assholes while you're still young enough to keep up with them. Bonus: they'll be off to college while you're still young enough to enjoy their absence.

322: Good lord, that's awful.

319: I'm curious, what's your mom reading?

Can you tell I'm bored on a Saturday night?

Hey DA, wanna babysit? I guarantee you won't be bored.

I will, if you ship him over here. My roommate has a little boy of around the same age, I believe.

Awesome, I'll pop him in a box post haste.

328: Oooh, B, have you read Flat Stanley to PK yet?

After a weekend with me you won't be able to control him. He'll have eaten Frankenberry all weekend and will be accustomed to jumping on the bed.

Flat Stanley is awesome.

what's your mom reading?

She's reading a book of retold ancient Persian children's stories by Ahmad Shamlou.

I have no familiar with Flat Stanley, I'm afraid. Nor Ahmad Shamlou.

PK already jumps on the bed, no worries. And I'll take Frankeberry as a very fair price for keeping him out of my hair for a weekend.

In Farsi?

333: Seriously, you will both love Flat Stanley.

I have come to realize that my extremely strong views about not having children are partially tainted by having dated lots of guys with whom I would never, ever have children.

336: I know a few people whose never-ever views on having children changed when it became having this person's children.

N.b. This is an observation, not a value judgment.

Also: There is a window of time where the goofiness and easy whimsy of Flat Stanley is exactly appropriate. PK is probably somewhere within that window. If it's going to appeal to him, it's going to work best before he's 8 or 9.

I was 12 when I loved Flat Stanley. But when I read the thread on precocious reading habits, I realized I was a late bloomer, intellectually.

Flat Stanley is a conspiracy by teachers to not only annoy a child's parents with their homework but their entire extended family.

DA, I think you and I are the same age range. I remember having great fun reading Flat Stanley to my little brother when I was 14.

I'm making my PK prediction based on the young people I work with today, many of whom have a level of sophistication (or at least glibness) to their humor that far outpaces what I had at their age.

Awesome, I'll pop him in a box post haste.

No, no. Pop him in a box at the post office, else he won't get there.

I remember reading Flat Stanley to my sisters. That and the Lorax.

The best part is when his mom drops a ring down a grate and they lower him down to get it, and he's stuck to a piece of chewing gum on a string.

In Farsi?

Yes.

Where does one get Farsi books in the States?

Do you read Farsi?

Am I getting too personal?

342: I think the best part is when he hides in the portrait to catch the thieves at the art museum.

Everyone goes on about how cool it would be to be invisible, but it would be almost as cool to be flat.

I remember in A Wrinkle in Time where they land on a two-dimensional planet and it's scary because Meg's heart can't beat.

Where does one get Farsi books in the States?

There are several Iranian book shops.

Do you read Farsi?

Slowly, painstakingly, and semi-comprehendingly.

Flat Stanley does sound like the kind of thing PK would like. I just finished Stuart Little with him yesterday, which he really liked ("better than the movie," hooray!), and it made me remember how influential that kind of lonely take on a readerly childhood can be. It's interesting now to me that I'm actually pretty social, and so is PK, and I wonder how that affects/will affect the books he enjoys.

cool to be flat

What are the benefits?

What are the benefits?

When you turn sideways, you're invisible. That's the only one I can think of.

Like you can fit through a grate on a piece of chewing gum to retrieve your mother's ring.

You can lie in bed under the covers and no one will know you're there, so no one will wake you up, comes to mind.

A benefit to having kids--god, all the hot 30-year-old chicks with their clocks ticking make lustful cow eyes at me when I've got the kid in tow. I haven't felt like such a sex god in public since I was 23.

I read through 353 comments to catch up with you guys, and then you all fucking left.

You can all seriously kiss my ass.

354: This kinda weirded me out about dating a guy with kids for the last two and a half years. Everywhere he went, all the women who knew he was the primary caretaker of two young boys would seriously drool whenever he was around. They'd gush about what a great father he was, how good he was at baking bread, what a nice home he kept, but all in a voice that might as well have been talking about the dimensions of his sex organs. He told me the same thing, that when he was in his twenties, he was a nobody, just another passably attractive clueless globetrotter. Suddenly, as a divorcé in his 40's with kids, he turned into the hottest piece of ass in Brooklyn.

I demand to know why you people would have me flat.

We were all trying to parse that last sentence where you told us that you've felt like a sex god in private plenty of times since you were 23.

I was just sticking up for the lurkers. There's room for only one sex god here, -gg-d.

DA, I can simultaneously admire someone from afar and have sex with her -- give it some thought. On Google's e-mail service, my address is the most obvious possible one, given my name.

my address is the most obvious possible one, given my name

I've discovered, in my old age, that along with total spatial incompetence (I have to try the 12" lid on the 6" pot to be sure that it doesn't fit), I have no idea what people mean when they talk about the "obvious" choice. In this case, I don't know how I'd decide between adamkotsko@gm... and adam.kotsko@gm.... Looking at my inbox, I see that your email is actually akotsko@gm..., which makes me want to punch you in the face.

Are you guys suggesting that having kids will help me get laid?

O/T: This article is a perfect reminder of why I hate Tom Stoppard so completely.

try the 12" lid on the 6" pot

Heh. This is like when my co-blogger describes an attractive young man as "You know, around our age. Somewhere between 14 and 35." Some incompetencies are handy, aren't they?

361: Iirc, gmail ignores all .'s in email addresses. Thus
first.last and firstlast would deliver to the same place. Not that this helps with akotsko.

Adam, I went the same way with my gmail, also believing it to be the most obvious iteration.

Thanks, dry-mala, for confirming my place outside the Obvious Clique of Humanity.

I have no idea what people mean when they talk about the "obvious" choice. In this case, I don't know how I'd decide between adamkotsko@gm... and adam.kotsko@gm....

Word. Those were my first two guesses. And generally when people reveal their version of "obvious" I too get the urge to beat them.

I really don't understand how it has come to be that the celibate Iranian Shia and the gun-toting Mormon with Aryan children share a brain.

I think it's because you're so much older.

Actually I think we're pretty close to the same age. Isn't Ogged 33? I'm 30.

Joe was probably making a joke that was obvious to everyone else.

Now I must punch Joe in the face.

I was thinking the same thing.

Kotsko got it I'm sure.

Whoa, I thought 364 was wrong, but I just tested, and it's not. What the fuck!

I'm sorry I missed this thread! Then again, I was eating the best Chinese food in America with 1) taken girl and 1) too sweet for Kotsko girl. So I guess that's not so bad.

the best Chinese food in America

And where's that?

The most obvious is kotsko@, because mine is just w-lfs-n@.

Mine is also lastname@, but I don't think we share a brain.

Obviously not, since I'm getting all the use out of it.

That's only fair, since I'm using the rest of the body.

I gotcher obvious with apostropher--at--apostropher--dot--com.

Have pity on those of us with five-letter names. I refused to go with BLastname because that's always my stupid university email, so I had to do FirstLast. Otherwise it would totally just have been First@, because, how cool would that be?

368: It's the shared conservative values.

376: I'm blogging about it right now, it was that good. It's called Silver Seafood, and it's at Lawrence and Broadway. Try it next time you're here, man—fucking awesome.

Ah, not a big seafood fan. Glad you enjoyed it, however.

the celibate Iranian Shia

I'm using the rest of the body

I think you mean "most of the rest."

You still use it, even when you're celibate.

First@, because, how cool would that be?

I think I had that option, but it sounds like a kid's address that way.

It's not really a seafood place, it's just the name. We ordered beef, beef, and duck, and all three were awesome. Seriously.

Whatever. Anyone who emails me knows my first name; I'm willing to believe that some people might either mistake or forget the last more easily.

386: I seem to remember an admission that Ogged sits to pee. So no, not really.

all three were awesome. Seriously.

Ok, next trip, I'm there.

222: Has the advice they've received ever led to any actual sexual intercourse?

In a sort of roundabout fashion. So yes, it is not all in vain.

This "too sweet" thing continues to puzzle me.

393: It means that leblanc, like DA, has determined that you're a dick. Or that she made a smart-ass remark and you're over-thinking things.

Kotsko, you remember that we've met, right? Okay, would you characterize yourself as "sweet"? Highly sweet people are sometimes funny, but they're not really witty, sarcastic, or amusingly bitter (and you are all three of those things), they're occasionally just sad. I think if the sweetness differential is too great, the non-sweet person finds the sweet person sort of dull and annoying, and the sweet person finds the non-sweet person just puzzling.

I just think you should date someone with a little bit of an edge, that's all.

Fine!

I don't know whether I want kids. Right now, I'm thinking that it's probably not going to happen. I certainly don't want them badly enough to have one on my own, and I don't have anyone I want to have one with now.

I also think it's a pretty serious business, and I'm not really sure that I'd be up to the task.

Speaking of dates, I'm about to head off to my coffee date and will let you all know how it goes sometime this evening.

This sounds like a pretty serious coffee date.

I think I've decided I could have kids the way a man traditionally does. I'd go to work in the morning, come home, adore them, and kiss my househusband, who sits there folding laundry and watching soaps. But I'd still make dinner. Men can raise all the kids they want, but women should still get to make dinner.

398: I thought that it might soudn taht way, but I'm going to a hot cider tree trimming party afterward and won't be home before the evening.

I refused to go with BLastname because that's always my stupid university email, so I had to do FirstLast.

There's a woman in my department named Sunita Lutz. I've never met her, but I'm sure she wishes someone had told her about university email addresses before she was assigned one.

Also, the recycling of university email addresses bothers me. My sister not only followed me to LSU, she stole my old email address. (I'm Scott, she's Sarah, so now she gets emails meant for me on occasion.)

My ideal approach to kid-having squares with 399, without the making dinner part. I'd make breakfast.

400: Isn't it blasphemous to trim trees in November. If it isn't, it ought to be.

402: Ooh, I love making breakfast. It's probably the only thing that gets me out of bed most days. Once you get the rhythm of it, making a big mess of hash browns, veggie omelettes, toast, and tea doesn't take long at all. One thing I miss about living with other people is hash browns, which really aren't worth making for oneself.

401: The canonical example of getting screwed by university e-mail address assignment rules is Emily Cummins (whose real first name was Mary).

404: One of the worst things about living alone are the foods you give up because it's not worth the bother. It's easy enough to invite people for dinner as an excuse to cook, breakfast can be more complicated :)

406: I absolutely agree. I did my best cooking when I lived with two other people in Cleveland. They swore to do all the cleaning in the apartment if I promised to make any food they wanted at any hour of the day. I learned to make Thai, Chinese, Oaxacan, French, Italian, West African, Southern... And I got to make cake, which is one of my favorite things to do that I never have an opportunity to do in my little studio apartment. I can't even fit enough people into my place to eat the damn thing.

Cake! That reminds me, I want to make a pie!

And unlike Ben, I don't have friends who wouldn't be freaked out by gifts of pie and cake. NYC is weird that way.

I cook to unwind, i.e. with a glass or tumbler, so I don't know about breakfast. I mean, drinking and unwinding at 7 a.m.? People might think I had "a problem."

I don't have friends who wouldn't be freaked out by gifts of pie and cake

Such hollow lives they lead...

I cook whenever I have something really stressful I need to do in a big hurry, like right now, when I'm grading papers I should have given back two weeks ago. All I can think is, "Red velvet would be nice..."

drinking and unwinding at 7 a.m.?

Bloody Mary's are your friend.

I just bring 'em into the department.

413, 414: Sounds great, but only if you promise to send envelopes of monies when they kick me out.

409 -- the obvious solution is to bake pies and cakes, and bring them to Unfogged meetups. I'm sure you will find takers there.

413 demonstrates the use of the greengrocer's apostrophe nicely.

414 belatedly to 409.

Not at all! The plural of "Bloody Mary" is "Bloodies Mary". Ask Safire if you don't believe me.

417: Er, yeah. Whoops.

You really trust Safire with matters of this importance?

I'd like to accuse AWB of mind-too-fining, but that would be to engage in an ogged-like presumption that 419 was not only facetious but also funny.

Besides, out of "Bloody" and "Mary," which is the adjective and which is the noun? I find it highly unlikely that "Mary" is modifying the kind of "Bloody" we're having with our huevos rancheros.

Sorry, I'm knee-deep in bad undergraduate writing and can't recognize irony anymore.

419 reminds me: anybody care to venture an opinion about the gerund form of "to tip-toe"? Should it be "tip-toeing" or "tipping-toe"?

"Tipping and toeing".

Obviously "tip-toeing". Obviously! (Does one ever say "I'll have no shillying-shally"?)

Compare other conjugated forms:

*He tipped-toe around the corner.
He tip-toed around the corner.

This blog is fucking ridiculous.

So too, is this, article with, many commas, about blogs.

Adam, I can't imagine why m. leblanc would think you aren't in the market for sweet.

So too, is this, article with, many commas, about blogs.

Oy.

399 gets it almost exactly right. But you forgot about that whole not-dealing-with-being-pregnant-yourself thing.

432: Pregnancy is much more temporary than having to raise the children.

Whenever I hear about these clown-car-vagina families with the fifteen kids, I always calculate how much of that woman's life was spent pregnant.

At least I can tolerate the thought of being oogy for nine months, then going into horrible pain for a while, and then having a sagginess in my middle. I cannot tolerate the thought of spending years of my life not pursuing excellence in my career.

It's really too bad we're not more community-minded about raising small children. Like nursing homes for new parents. You've got your cafeteria, your common space, your personal space.

I know that's what a kibbutz is, but there're more Assisted Living Communitities in Texas than kibbutzim.

436: Yeah, all the places where groups raise children are either infested with drugs or cults.

437: Obviously, I mean "other than kibbutzim," not "because you know how kibbutzim are."

This Friday I'm going to party like I'm in an Assisted Living Facility.

432: Easy fix. Lesbianism.

405: the convention that produced distressing results for Sunita Lutz also damaged the prospects of the man quoted in this article.

440: True. The lesbian couple I know, who have three kids, took turns; since the woman who was pregnant the second time had terrible post-partum depression, it was a foregone conclusion that the third kid would be borne by the other partner.

because you know how kibbutzim are

My mom lived on a kibbutz for a while.

What are people's thoughts on Craigslist versus real online dating sites?

CL is good for people who like to cast the widest possible net. You have to be willing to go on a lot of bad dates to have a few good ones, but it increases the chance of completely random success.

Other dating sites are better for people who would rather go on a few dates with people you're pretty sure you're going to get along with. You may not get as many dates, but they're likelier to be people who are looking for something more specifically like you.

How much do the other sites cost?

What are people's thoughts on Craigslist versus real online dating sites?

Depends on what you're looking for -- friends, short-term relationship, potential for longer-term... I know several people who got married through JDate. I know three marriages as a result of Match, and a number of successful relationships (successful = lasted as long as the person was looking for, usually at least a year).

Yahoo Personals seems to have a higher portion of the married-but-looking and the separated-but-not-divorced crowd. OK Cupid has very entertaining tests, but a smallish user base and seems more geeky (not a bad thing if you like dating engineers and such).

I remain surprised by the number of people who freely admit to drug use on the Salon personals (which are cross-listed with other sites that I can't recall -- maybe Act for Love? Nerve? Tia might know). Also, the interface is terrible.

This review brought to you by your friendly neighborhood reference librarian.

I'm a bit leery of JDate. If I were to spring for one of those sites it would probably be Nerve, but CL would be less trouble so I'm inclined to start there.

I used Nerve for a year and loved it. It's the one that's cross-listed with the Village Voice, the Onion, and Salon (I think Salon, not sure).

My old roommate did the OKCupid thing and met lots of neat people. As Witt says, it's not got as many users, and they're younger and nerdier than average, but that's not a bad thing. It's also pretty easy to meet people, since it kind of sets you up. You take a bunch of funny/interesting personality tests and then the service looks up people who match as many of your results on as many tests as possible. It tells you, "This person is 67% as liberal as you, 33% as sexually active as you, 146% as smart as you," etc. You have lots of conversation starters right from the beginning. And I think OKCupid is free...

Further thoughts: MeetUp.com is not billed as a dating site, but often functions as one. And it has a truly staggering diversity of interest groups. Not just hobbies like salsa dancing or foreign-language conversation. Truly, go register (free and easy) and just browse the groups near your zipcode. It's a complete crapshoot as far as good-use-of-time, but worth investigating.

In my experience the groups are largely friendly and approachable. With the possible exception of the athiests, who used to meet at the same pizza joint as my Spanish-conversation group. But it's open entry/open exit; no fees; you can RSVP or just show up; and most of the meetings tend to be held at a place like Borders where it's easy enough to come in, scope out the crowd, and skulk back out if they're not to your liking.

Or -- since you're in the right age range -- you could just do what my brother and all his friends seem to do, which is stalk each other via Facebook.

CL doesn't seem very inclined to your temperament, Teo. People can be really harsh.

Maybe I'm projecting just because it seems the easiest, but also the cruellest, and I never had the guts to do it.

Or -- since you're in the right age range -- you could just do what my brother and all his friends seem to do, which is stalk each other via Facebook.

This is more or less my current MO, and it's not working.

450: For men too, though? This stuff does seem to be heavily gendered.

Yeah, if the only reason to start with CL is because it's free, then I'd try OK Cupid.

OKCupid sounds cool, but I'm a little concerned about the small user base.

The thing seems to be that every site has its own community, its own dating-endgame vibe, and its own degree to which it does some of the introducing work for you. So the questions are, what kind of girl are you looking for? What is your best-case date conclusion (and what kind of date would you not be able to handle)? And how much are you hoping that either the program or the girl will do the setting up for you?

As far as I can tell, the CL base is huge, but mostly consists of (1) mean, picky people, (2) people looking to fuck with very few questions asked, and (3) serious hail-mary plays from a few regular lonely people.

The OKC base is smaller, but mostly young, collegy types who care about filtering for someone kind of like themselves and who need a helping hand with the introductions.

I fear that most dating experiences, online and offline, require someone to be the aggressor. It doesn't seem like this is up your alley, Teo, and you might not really like a girl who would be the kind to do all the aggressing, either, which is where a more hands-on matchmaking thing might be of use.

There's also Consumating, which was hip about a year ago, but might have been displaced by something yet cooler now.

More hip dating sites.

It doesn't seem like this is up your alley

I fear you misjudge me, AWB. At least for online interactions.

There's also Consumating, which was hip about a year ago,

Or maybe two years ago. (I'm the 3733rd most popular! Consumating is really kind of lame!)—actually, the problem with Consumating is that it's geared toward a continued-interaction model, where you have to sign on and keep engaging in conversations and the answering of dumb questions&hellip[1] It's too much of a community site. Not everyone wants to join a huge community site for their dating site.

[1] It's ok when I do it.

take a bunch of funny/interesting personality tests

The great thing about OkCupid is that, as you're taking the tests that other users have written, you immediately start feeling much, much smarter.

459: Fair enough, Teo, but I warn you: going on that first blind date (and the second, and the third) is really fucking nerve-wracking, and you want to be pretty comfortable with whomever you've scheduled to meet.

I don't doubt it, but it seems like advance preparation is a must regardless.

I'd be wary with starting with CL. In New York, at least, the freak to normal person ratio is about 20/1. Nobody's looking for an actual date -- they just want NSA anal with a busty asian chick who looks underage. Please be able to host!! 420!

Okay, again, I'm a dude.

NSA anal

Anal sex so rough, it breaks whatever protection you're using?

465 - Dude, NYC Craigslist is so freaky, that's what the girls are lookin' for.

"NSA anal" is actually a poorly-encoded way for people who want nose-to-ass contact to let others know.

Teo, as unfair as it is, part of this is inevitably going to be about you finding a site that allows you to post a profile that really feels like you. No profile can capture a whole person, but as AWB said above, each dating site has its own approach. Some of them are going to feel more natural to you than others.

In a field where women have a lot of choices, one of the best ways to give them a reason to look at *you* is to be distinctive, honest, and real in your profile. And that's easier to do if you're not mentally going: "This is so lame. I can't believe I'm answering these questions."

465: Yeah, being a dude doesn't save you from being freaked the fuck out by a date here.

469: Exactly, which is why I'm leaning toward CL, which doesn't involve profiles.

A sampling from just the front page. Although perhaps Craigslist Teoville is a bit tamer.

Although by posting a non-freaky ad to Craigslist, you will surely stand out from your fellow suitors.

Yes, I've been browsing CL for a while now. The thing is, though, that I don't have to respond to ads like those. There are some nice ones, really, though it does seem to vary from place to place. CL Teoville is dead.

Although by posting a non-freaky ad to Craigslist, you will surely stand out from your fellow suitors.

Yeah, see, this is what I'm going for.

Hey - I just checked out CL Teoville and, while it's kinda dead, there is some potential there...

472: Who among us hasn't, at some point in our lives, been desperate for a HOT COP!!!

Huh, so there is. I hadn't checked it in a while. Still, fewer than twenty w4m postings since October 18.

The Teoville guys are pretty freaky, though.

"NSA anal" is actually a poorly-encoded way for people who want nose-to-ass contact to let others know.

Does "NSA" refer simply to the nasal part, or is the "anal" baked in, as is "yogurt" in "TCBY"?

"NSA" is just the nasal part.

479: Hey!

(Actually I think most CL guys everywhere are freaky. All the easier to distinguish myself, I guess. A lot of the women seem pretty cool.)

477 -- is HOT COP coprophiliac slang?

Is there any particular reason you can't sign up for a site *and* use CL? Problem solved.

Don't overthink it, Teo. It's just an online personal.