Re: A Water Engineer Muses About Climate Change

1

Why are the forests still too dense? I thought people knew from decades ago that that was a bad thing.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 11:46 AM
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I don't know. I have this sense that thinning them appropriately is incredibly labor intensive -- regular burning would have been good, but once they get too dense it's not possible without getting out of control. But that's all vague impressions. I really don't know.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 11:50 AM
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I assume they're still too dense is because the natural means of thinning is by forest fire and the various artificial means have other flaws and are relentlessly gamed by various interest groups.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 11:51 AM
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This does not sound fun at all. We'd better have a plan! to do something!


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 11:53 AM
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Shut up, you.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 11:55 AM
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We could put on a show.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 11:56 AM
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Our last plan led to a total Democratic takeover of the congress with minimal effort by us, so I think we should have similarly grand ambitions for this.

EVERYONE IN CALIFORNIA: Burn down one tree. Meet up later and discuss what resistence you encountered.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:00 PM
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And I'll start colorcoding posts.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:02 PM
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Because social problems quail with fear at the sight of colorcoded posts.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:03 PM
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Oooh! Color the ones that quote me green. Like, environmental and shit.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:04 PM
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Make sure it's a fun green, though.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:05 PM
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I think we used up green on the ill-fated Montaigne reading group. I can offer you a nice puce?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:06 PM
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The Montaigne reading group is dead?? How come nobody told me?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:07 PM
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How about white? We need to keep the plan hush-hush until it is sprung on a waiting world.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:08 PM
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You and Jackmormon are right about why the forest stands are too dense. The second growth stuff comes in too thick; fires that would have thinned them were suppressed; selective thinning is incredibly expensive; the lower canopies and higher brush allow for crown fires that burn hotter. The situation is a mess. Like, you know, building tract homes on floodplains.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:10 PM
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I'll research tree-burning in Pennsylvania.


Posted by: DaveB | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:11 PM
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17

I do get weird about justice vs. environmental sensibleness with respect to Katrina. It seems terribly unjust not to rebuild the poor neighborhoods that were devastated so that New Orleansians (?) can return home. On the other hand, rebuilding below sea level seems like such a terrible idea itself.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:15 PM
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building tract homes on floodplains

Also known as really good farmland.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:15 PM
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Well almost all of New Orleans is below sea level, but it really is still the best place for America to have a port for the Mississippi River basin. Any further downstream and the land is even wetter; much further upstream and your ocean-going vessels either can't get there or spend so much time going through Old Man River's bends that it's an economic loss.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:19 PM
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On to cheerier thoughts to accompany Megan's questions: Bruce Sterling asks what if it's already ten years too late to take action about climate change?


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:21 PM
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19 -- does having the port in its current location mean the city needs to be there too? I don't really know the geography there -- if it were only a couple of miles to high ground it seems like you could have housing and commerce at the high ground and a big docking-and-unloading complex at the low ground, and roads in between the two.


Posted by: Clownæsthesiologist | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:25 PM
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22

I'll second 19, with a hearty helping of we've always known we'd be fucked. Seems germane here, too.


Posted by: SEK | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:25 PM
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23

Hey, I'm doing my part by not living in the stupid foothills.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:35 PM
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24

Which lead up to the mountains of imbecility. ("What's that shining off in the distance there?" "That's the River Dim.")


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:38 PM
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Burning is vital to Chicago's natural ecosystem, and we've a lot of forest preserves where it's feasible and incredibly productive: obscure plants and animals once thought extinct in the area arrive promptly, like magic.

But there is stiff resistance from people who want the thick vegetation to screen their houses from view, and general resistance to anything favored by government and dirty hippies.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:48 PM
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I'm doing my part by not living in the stupid foothills.

Me too. I'm some 350 feet above the current sea level, near a Bristol Farms store with a good gourmet section, and my closet is full of the armament needed to take and hold it.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 12:57 PM
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27

Bah, survivalist nonsense. I'll just eat the koi.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:00 PM
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28

Once the floods come, you can weaponize the koi and train them to forage for you.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:05 PM
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29

Harness them and have them draw an aquatic chariot. Future post-apocalyptic generations will remember you as the koi goddess.

(Friends in San Diego live across the street from some people who own an emu. This might also be useful when civilization falls. Think of all the things you could do with an emu... All right, I'm not coming up with anything either.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:07 PM
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25.--A lot of the houses with massive overvegetation that burned down in the Oakland Hills fire were owned by dirty hippies.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:08 PM
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31

No, those were clean hippies. You want to rely only on the ones who don't wash.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:09 PM
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32

The cat's already got that covered.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:09 PM
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33

32 to 28. Although I really like 29. You can eat an emu. I have friends nearby who have elderly llamas, which would also be useful, I imagine. Clothing, transport, meat in a pinch....


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:12 PM
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34

I plan to just eat my neighbors. They're old and don't move quickly.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:17 PM
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35

Transport? Good luck getting a llama to carry more than about 50 pounds.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:19 PM
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Two llamas can carry 100 lbs. How much crap do you need to carry around? We're talking post-apocalypse here. You're not gonna need the nintendo.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:20 PM
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37

I thought you meant personal transport. I'd use them for protection, myself. Nasty buggers.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:22 PM
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38

Instead of burning down one tree each, let's just chop them down, then sell them for firewood/lumber. We could help the forests and make money. Or furniture. If we were hippies, that is.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:29 PM
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39

In fact a lot of sheep farmers own a couple of llamas. To chase off the wolves, coyotes, feral dogs, etc. Donkeys are also commonly used for this.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:31 PM
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40

But the problem isn't the big trees, it's the brush/saplings. Not so useful for furniture. So drop that ax.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:32 PM
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Donkeys are my favorite animals. Did you know that donkey milk is more nutritious and closer to human milk than cows' milk?


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:33 PM
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42

Post-Apocalypse, one should remember that goats and rabbits are the most efficient sources of protein vis-a-vis intake and output.

The first place I'd hit would be Whole Foods, as they sell lots of seeds. Then the trendy hotels, where the clueless celebutards hang out. I've always wanted to really use my To Serve Man cookbook.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:34 PM
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43

Also, rabbits are tasty.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:35 PM
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44

40: Well, hell, then we can just do clearance and maybe plant a little pot whilst we're at it. And saplings have their own uses in making rustic furniture.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:36 PM
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45

And Bambis are tasty. Especially marinated in wine and cooked slowly over an open flame.


Posted by: DominEditrix | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:37 PM
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46

I have a friend who had a rhea, which is basically the same as an emu, despite coming from a different continent. It was the most evil thing you've ever seen. Whenever it saw anyone it would fix its eyes on them and move its head back and forth slowly like the cartoon cobra ready to strike. Then when you'd get close it would fluff up its feathers to look even more menacing. He told me that they had another rhea at one point which behaved the same way before it was killed for no good reason by the surviving rhea.

So anyway, your emu would drive away the zombie cannibals, if you can get it to somehow not attack you first. Llama is a safer bet. Unless you can find an emu that can fly, which would be very useful.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:38 PM
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47

But the best option would be a llama that can fly. Or a donkey that can fly, produce wool, and give you a blowjob.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:39 PM
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48

Didn't we have an apocalypse thread, where all of you liberals who have never fired a gun insisted that you'd be able to hunt the wild beasts and build your own boats just like Clan of the Cave Bear?


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:39 PM
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49

And craps pot.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:39 PM
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50

But not as useful as a llama that could fly.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:39 PM
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51

"I think these problems are real and imminent. I wish we would solve them in advance, but I can't see how that will happen. Smart people are trying . . ."

Not that much, I think. Just in pockets. There's no sustained effort trying to figure out what the real risks of global warming are in detail for relatively small areas. Partly I think that's from global warming denial being a form of boosterism. Saying what can go wrong is bad for business: see _An Enemy of the People_, or even _Jaws_. Without decent risk identification and analysis, it's awful hard to come up with workable contingency plans.


Posted by: jim | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:39 PM
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52

A little slow on the trigger again.


Posted by: Brock Landers | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:40 PM
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53

48: Bitch was pretty clear that she was going to die. I don't think anyone was all that optimistic about boat-building/big-game-hunting.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:40 PM
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54

Post-Apocalypse, I will likely have two options:

1) take advantage of my relative youth, health, good looks, and propensity to make the best of things to attach myself to someone more skilled in post-Apocalyptic scenarios; or

2) lie down and wait to die.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:42 PM
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I plan to be one of the dead who is envied by the survivors.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:42 PM
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56

AAAHH SUBJECT/VERB DISAGREEMENT UNDO UNDO UNDO


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:42 PM
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57

Buck and I actually have a firm post-apocalyptic plan along the lines of (1). His childhood best friend is a heavily armed (guns, bows, if you can put a hole in an animal with it, he has it) gardener/potter/baker/random primitive skills guy, and he's only an hour or so outside of the city. If the world comes to an end, we drive to Art's and beg him to feed us in return for stoop labor.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:44 PM
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57: You should try developing a primitive hobby in your spare time, to complement the skills of this friend. I recommend flint-knapping. But find out what skills he's lacking first.

Just imagine, if all our elderly women went in for flint-knapping and hide tanning instead of needlepoint and painting wooden Christmas tree ornaments. Our society would take a lot longer to fall prey to the inevitable gangs of libertarian warlords.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:48 PM
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59

I mean, after our society collapses, it would take longer to fall prey to libertarian warlords. Our current society has no defense against them.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:50 PM
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The stench associated with hide-tanning would also go some ways towards offsetting that unpleasant old-person smell.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:50 PM
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if you can put a hole in an animal with it, he has it

Your friend has my johnson!?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:52 PM
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Yeah, I think he has flint knapping covered. Given that I can already knit, spinning and weaving would probably be useful. And I could sue people.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:52 PM
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63

Not "put it in a hole in an animal".


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:53 PM
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64

I would shell out $7.99 to read "LizardBreath, Post-Apocalyptic Torts Attourney".


Posted by: snarkout | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:53 PM
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65

Exit wounds, Ned.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:54 PM
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66

Next step is the braining. I use a blender to mash up the brain and cook it in my old 1970s fondue pot. I think that fondue was one of the great things to come out of the 70s. My wife bought me a new fondue pot last Christmas. I think she got tired of the flower power motif. After the brain slurry is well cooked it should cool off until it is only warm. Too hot will cook the pelt; too cold will not penetrate the skin as well. The brains are rubbed into the skin, then the pelt is put into a plastic bag and in the shade. For the next two hours the pelt should be checked every half-hour. If it starts to smell too nasty, it is time to take it out of the bag and start softening.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:56 PM
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Speaking of horrible stenches and tanning, have you all seen that they've made a movie out of Perfume?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:56 PM
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68

The libertarian warlords will encounter stiff resistance from the Carolina Bung Dropper Militia.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 1:58 PM
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I can tie knots, cook, and analyze literature. Uh, I can sail, swim, and climb things.

I'm so toast in the post-Apocalypse. Barack Obama had better not be the Anti-Christ.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:00 PM
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a single operator can bung up to 1200 sows / hour.

No one cares about craftsmanship and individual attention anymore. How do you think the sows feel about they way they're handled?


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:00 PM
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I'm starting to suspect that Ned is funny.

Anyway, y'all are nuts with this "survival" crap; in a post-apocalyptic world, the first thing I'd do is kill all the bloggers (and yes, sadly, commenters) who annoyed me. My signature line, said a low, hoarse whisper over their dying bodies would be, ".45 to 32."


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:01 PM
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72

You've thought about this before, I see.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:05 PM
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73

Actually, no, but it didn't take long to formulate a satisfactory plan.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:12 PM
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74

".45 to 32."

Ogged, I'll be very disappointed in you if you're shooting people instead of chopping off heads.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:15 PM
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75

I'm all about assimilation, Apo. And frankly, I don't want to get any blood on me.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:16 PM
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76

Wimp.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:17 PM
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77

Just remember, Ben, you're the one who lives nearest me.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:18 PM
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78

I've got lots of sharp knives, ogged. Can't wait.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:20 PM
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79

Would it have killed you to say ".45 to .32"?


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:21 PM
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80

All the better to scalp you with. That fro will fetch a pretty penny in the post-apocalyptic market.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:22 PM
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81

Would it have killed you to say ".45 to .32"?

You don't think that crosses the line into "precious?"


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:23 PM
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82

Given that you chose "32" as the number to which you respond, it was already both baffling and precious.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:24 PM
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83

You don't think that crosses the line into "precious?"

Look, if you're going to make a comment so macho that it just screams "masculine inadequacy," you might as well go all the way.


Posted by: slolernr | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:25 PM
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84

83 is a fair point, but I prefer to think that some people were fooled.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:27 PM
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85

As long as thinking so makes you happy.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:29 PM
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86

I don't get slol's line. His is definitely the first intellectual head I take in the post-Apocalypse.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:32 PM
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87

In the post-Apocalypse, nothing changes for Timbot.


Posted by: sam k | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:35 PM
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68: Any would-be libertarian warlords in this area are going to have to overcome the Leather Bears and the Dykes on Bikes, not to mention hordes of ancient Babushkas wielding walkers. Not a chance.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:41 PM
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53: Yeah, I figure I'd probably die in any kind of survival situation b/c my meds would run out and I'd just sit down and stop moving. OTOH, I was in 4-H as a kid and I've worked on a ranch, so I might just surprise you computer jockeys. Maybe my "probably I'll die" thing just means I'm more realistic (and therefore more likely to live) than you lot.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:43 PM
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.....killed for no good reason by the surviving rhea.

Who are we to judge a rhea's reasons?

If a rhea could talk, we could not understand him. (Or a lady rhea, either.)

I think that the main reason people hope for the apocalypse is that it would rid the earth of snark and generators of snark. A grim thought -- for us.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 2:58 PM
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lady rhea

I suppose since Rhea is a woman's name, the male rhea should be called a rheo. I assume that someone will go back and edit 46 to this effect.

Also, thanks, Ogged. I would refer you to some of my music-related essays if they hadn't been posted with my real name on them.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 3:01 PM
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92

So basically those of us living on isolated, over-populated, mid-oceanic rocks whose economies are pretty much entirely located within 20 or 30 feet of sea level are just fucked?

Yeah, I knew that. But with luck a hurricane will get us before we run out of food (mmm, tourist!) or water.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 3:06 PM
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93

92: But you'll have a beautiful view as you lay dying. Which is important.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 3:12 PM
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94

That makes me realize that since moving to this new apartment, I have absolutely no idea how to get to the mainland.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 3:21 PM
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21: Pretty much, yes, the city has to be there. The French Quarter and Uptown are relatively highest, hence settled first and now priciest, and we're talking a few feet above sea level at most. Many's the spring when I've walked on the levee at Jackson Square, where the river would be lapping at second-story windows if not for what I was walking on.

It's a long way to real high ground, see the Katrina evacuation, and you certainly couldn't have the whole population doing it every day as a commute. Not even if the Slidell bridges have been rebuilt (I haven't been back in a while, so I'm not sure). South and east of the city you've got the Gulf, directly north you've got Lake Ponchartrain and west you've got a lot of swamp. But the economics of sitting at the mouth of a 14,000-mile inland waterway system are pretty convincing. Half of the country's grain exports, for example, move through the port.

The official web site (portno.com) says the Mississippi moves about 500 million tons of cargo each year, and claims the extended section of ports on the lower Mississippi (basically from Baton Rouge downriver, all of which, incidentally, will be out of the loop when the Mississippi overcomes the Old River Control Structure and changes its main channel to the Atchafalaya) is the busiest port complex in the world.

The city probably can and will be noticeably smaller than it was pre-Katrina, which is a shame in a lot of ways, but there needs to be a New Orleans, and it needs to be right where it is.


Posted by: Doug | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 3:27 PM
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94: Triboro to the Bronx, no?


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 3:29 PM
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97

[Looking at a map] Yeah, I guess that would do it. Knowing me, though, I'd get off early, at Riker's.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 3:31 PM
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98

Most survivalists are blowhards. Kill them first and take their stuff and head for the hills. Or the Amish country, since they already live the lifestyle.


Posted by: Tassled Loafered Leech | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 4:08 PM
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93: There is that.

But what the fuck anyway. I'm unreasonably happy because I finished up my last few before-year-end gottas at the law firm and am back to just one job after several weeks of busting ass to get out and a week and a half of working the new job during the day and the old one evenings and weekends. Now I have almost a whole week to get ready for Christmas!


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 4:19 PM
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100

When the revolution comes, I'm supposed to head to Froz's family ranch in the sticks of California.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 4:29 PM
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101

Why not do that now? There's a meetup on Thursday down in LA.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 4:35 PM
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92: But you'll have a beautiful view as you lay dying. Which is important.

As he lies dying.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 4:53 PM
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100(!): I think you'd be better off in the NC Piedmont. Not to mention easier to get to.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 5:00 PM
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104

102: Jesus, Ben, read a book sometime.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 5:02 PM
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105

103: Maybe, but they have a pool.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 5:03 PM
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105: Is this pool filled by a mountain spring or something? 'Cause I don't think there'll be any city water come the Apocalypse.


Posted by: M/tch M/lls | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 10:04 PM
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107

104 is some weird mindgame intending to get me to make ever more pedantic comments, but I won't fall for it.


Posted by: ben w-lfs-n | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 10:09 PM
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108

Dude, they're nowhere near a city.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 12-19-06 10:17 PM
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109

Ah, this is the "What if bad shit happens? We're all doomed!" thread. Every blog with more than a critical level of comments traffic does it at least once.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 12-20-06 5:24 AM
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110

Likewise for drive-by sociology lessons.


Posted by: standpipe b | Link to this comment | 12-20-06 6:09 AM
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111

test


Posted by: neuticles | Link to this comment | 12-20-06 7:07 AM
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