And now I'm off to a meeting. Back soon!
When I met my wife she was 21 and I was 28. It's no big deal as far as I can see. If she likes you, she likes you.
You realize that she is just being nice to you because you remind her of her dad, don't you?
Stick with 30 to 40 year old women. Much, much, much better.
Second queston: how do I make this sweet, sweet transaction of the flesh without also becoming bound by the implicit contract of human emotions?
You ask her if she wants to have frequent no-strings casual sex.
In the alternative, I have some magic beans that might do the trick.
1. Wrong? No. Maybe creepy, but that depends on how you approach it.
2. That's a question for you to answer. If you don't want her to become emotionally entangled, you should be up front about that.
Otherwise, go for it. Everything else is a complication that can be met as it goes along.
I would say be careful with the lifeguards, as they posess a predatory airheadedness that hardly seems possible, but that doesn't really seem to be a relevant worry. More of a feature than a bug.
I'd be more concerned with potential awkwardness, if this is a lifeguard at your pool. It's like asking out the barista at your usual coffee shop: appealing in theory, unpleasant in practice.
Every time you sleep with her, you can think about how when you were 21 she was 9. What was that about creepy predators?
"So, you want to go out to dinner sometime? Yes? How's Saturday?"
Find out what kind of food she likes/any dietary restrictions, then take her someplace really fancy (this part is key--part of your appeal is that you're older and established enough that you know good restaurants and can afford them). Arrive early enough to get a pre-dinner cocktail. Share a dessert. Take the evening from there.
this part is key--part of your appeal is that you're older and established enough that you know good restaurants and can afford them
That sounds a bit creepy and older-man-predator-ish; to me, anyway.
Dude. If you screw this up, she will let you drown. The nookie had better be pretty good to justify this level of risk.
1. Oh come on, this isn't even creepy. You are both adults. She is not that young; you are not that old.
2. This is much more problematic. You can ask for sex with no strings attached. You might even get it. (Although you'd better be pretty explicit if you want to get it.)
But there are strings and then there are strings. You may not be promising each other anything but you will still become emotionally entangled. In fact, a whole possibility that you are neglecting is that *she* may want to go to bed with virile flesh, but then wake up with a vulnerable boyfriend. You've had a cancer scare. You are lonely. I think you could turn out to be the clingy one.
That sounds a bit creepy and older-man-predator-ish
I vote for 10. Skip the cash-flashing and just go for the roofies.
12: No, she'll let him drown if the nookie is bad.
I agree with #6. And I have faith in your ability to broadcast non-creepiness.
The NSA is harder. In my limited experience, it's best communicated early on, through generalities. (Over coffee: "Yeah, I'm really in a transitional phase right now -- my job is a contract one that will be ending in April, and I am not sure if I want to be staying in this city long-term or not.")
If she wants to delude herself into a Relationship, that will happen no matter what you do.* All you can do is be ethical from your end, and not make explicit or implicit false promises.
*N.b. This is not a gender-specific practice.
11: You're picturing too many cheesy TV scenes. Chopper's point is implicit - you don't dress in a tux and take her out to some velvet-drape palace (some sort of Smoove B joke would be applicable here). But the simple fact of taking her someplace that her peer group doesn't frequent - without making a big deal of it - sets you apart.
That said, setting yourself apart is a very specific move, with risks. You have to commit to the role, it could be awkward to be immature/playful once you've established yourself as a Grownup, plus who knows what the emotional implications will be - does it set you up as an experimental fling for her, or as Prince Charming?
11--Really? It's not like he'd be *bribing* her to have sex--just accentuating a positive to being with an older guy. He shouldn't take her to the French Laundry, just someplace with a white tablecloth that he knows to be good. The point here is to send traditional "I'm attempting to seduce you" messages.
She might also be a religous chick who has a crush on me but won't give it up, but let's cross that bridge when we come to it.
"cross that bridge" s/b "bridge that cross"
Pay no attention to the naysayers, ogged. She's an adult and for all you know this could be your last chance with the under-25 set. On your mark!
Second queston:
First, fix the typo. Then, though you may hate it, consider the analogy: how do I play high-stakes poker without losing money? Gambling involves risk by definition. Sex is almost always gambling, but you can't win if you don't play.
my time of burning need
A round of antibiotics will take care of that. Get it done before you bed her.
re: 17
Maybe it's just me, but I'd want her to want to be with me because she thought I was transcendentally hawt, rather than because I knew which restaurants were nice.
Although I see the point of the 'I am trying to seduce you' messages.
14: No, she'll let him drown if the nookie is bad.
Not necessarily. It could be a sort of kill-the-architect-so-he-will-never-build-anything-else-to-rival -this move. Popular in Persia, I believe.
Age-wise I think he's fine (just; half plus seven gives 23). But then we Scots tend to marry young and robust (see ttaM) in order to be sure of getting at least one male heir out of the marriage before the wife is carried off by the bitter climate, the dangers of childbirth, or the rapacious MacGregors.
8: Every time you sleep with her, you can think about how when you were 21 she was 9.
Far better to think back to that magic era when you were 13 and she was still in diapers.
transcendentally hawt
But empirically hideous.
I dunno...this whole thing sounds like there's waaaaayyy too much subtext, a la 13.
And if you really want no-strings sex, I don't think your regular work-out spot is your best bet to find it, never mind an actual employee of your regular work-out spot. The potential for trauma and/or mutual inconvenience seems too high. Plus what if she decides you're disappointingly older and creepy and tells all the other lifeguards? Girls talk, you know.
The other thing is that you don't know what "crush" means for her, and you might want to find out before making too many detailed plans. Usually when I get crushes, for example, they are sorta-relationship-based, not just "hey, I'd like to sleep with that guy and then smile slyly at him every time I see him at the pool later." So if she has a crush and it's a "he's so sophisticated and fascinating and we could go to the movies and laugh wittily" kind of crush, well, that could be untidy.
As far as NSA: probably not likely for O, but the single biggest mistake of my life was taking too lightly a pretty-much-NSA situation with a woman who was actually pretty great. We spent a decade flirting, (occasionally) fooling around, and dating other, much worse people. By establishing NSA from the get, we preempted finding out that we really dug each other and were pretty compatible.
All that said, I'm better off with my wife, but it was a lot of wasted time.
PS - Also, the NSA & I were born in the same decade, so really different situation.
17: ttaM, hotness fades with the fall of day; knowing where to find good snap is forever.
Shouldn't ogged just be cruising craigslist's casual encounters section for this?
My information about this is that if anything "happens" and if you end up finding a young, beautiful, somewhat-insane Christian girl sucking your cock every night, that it's always possible to redeem yourself by committing suicide.
Ummm the problem in this thread is ?
Come on, 12 years is hardly an issue. Not in that age bracket. If she is sending signals that you honestly believe you can read and if you are able to respond without hurting anyone else, then I'd say it need not bother anyone. Believe me, in France, Austria, Germany, Holland, Sweden.... this question would provoke puzzlement.
28: Ogged would just end up sending cock pictures to Jason Fortuny. Best to stick to the barely legal lifeguards.
I think the first thing you should do is stop referring to him as a woman; I know that this is the normal way ofthinking of the passive partner in Middle Eastern cultures, but it's quite likely that (he is, after all, a lifeguard) he doesn't think of himself as any less of a man just because he's gay. Join the twenty first century for pete's sake.
24: The exercise pool's a better place to look for nookie than the social pool. And I can't say that I have any experience with it but I'd guess that weeding out Craigslist candidates takes up more time than NSA sex is worth. As far as the risk:benefit ratio goes, the gym seems like a best-possible venue.
Girls talk, you know.
WHAT!?
They wouldn't.
Redeem yourself in whose eyes, John?
You do realize, Ogged, that if you were a chick you'd be far to young for me by most civilized standards (though far too old by mine)?
And I'm sure you'd be a really hott chick too.
1. Wrong? Wrong? Are you crazy? The only wrong thing is dangling the idea that you might pass up the opportunity to sleep with a 23-year old lifeguard in front of those of us who can't.
2. Won't this just kind of work itself out? You flirt, you date, you "initiate proceedings," and see where you end up. In the event she attaches herself to you in a girlfriend-y fashion, you'll just have to find someplace else to swim once you break her poor tender heart.
IDP: You don't understand the tremendous guilt involved in these predatory relationships with promiscuous young Christian sluts barely out of their teens.
The only wrong thing is dangling the idea that you might pass up the opportunity to sleep with a 23-year old lifeguard in front of those of us who can't.
…because you're happily married, right, mrh?
The last time ogged quenched his droughty lointhirst the blog starting sucking much more than usual. I doubt the wisdom of actually helping him get laid.
because you're happily married, right, mrh?
You can be happily married and still have other partners, young, inexperienced Ben.
39, 41: You can also be happily married and still lust after lifeguards. I mean, come on.
my time of burning need
If you already have that, all you need is the motorcycle. I say go for it, she's old enough to make up her own mind and already old enough to have dealt with several break-ups already.
This thread would be better with pictures of this girl. So we can help you, of course.
I once went out with a fellow who was significantly years old than me; I was around twenty. We've kept in touch, and he always dates women who are around twenty. He's almost forty now (and it makes me feel really unpleasant to realize that I was merely the first in a series) and the field has really, really narrowed for him--to the point where his latest girl is (as far as I can tell) a little slow, if you know what I mean.
The moral of the story is to seize your opportunities, but only up to a certain point.
Dude, don't sweat it. Shouldn't your bout with cancer have placed you "beyond good and evil" anyway? Seriously, up to this point, you lived a pathologically morally scrupulous life, and what has it gotten you? God let you get sick, and women think you're both sexist and a sissy. Give yourself a break. You deserve it.
Why do you want to enter the "relationship" with a NSA-clause from the start? Is there something about her personality you find off-putting, and so you're really truly just after some ass? In that case, I vote "immoral" unless you're *very* upfront about this fact.
But otherwise, you haven't adopted Emerson's "no-relationship" policy, and you're not about to move out-of-state, and you're not *in* another committed relationship, so why not just ask her out and tentatively inititiate a relationship (no scare quotes this time)? If it doesn't work out, so be it. You've had your ass (and she, hers) and you can both move on. If it does work out, all the better. (In other words, what 37.2 said.)
Burning need or burning seed? Good grief, Ogg, don't let your Superego wear you down. Down here in the swamps at this time of year, all the birds, and I mean ALL, are flush with hormones.
The exercise pool's a better place to look for nookie than the social pool.
The free health clinic is better than both.
When I was 22 I had a huge crush on a 33 year old that I worked with. It wasn't weird or creepy.
If things had developed long-term, there might have been some problems due to being at different stages in our life, but you only know that when you get there, that could happen with any couple, and isn't a reason not to ask someone out unless you're being an obsessive dork.
Does this make me a creepy predator or is that a category comprising only men who wear cologne?
Depends. Are you hot?
44.
P.S. Yes, a picture, please.
If this were the movies, ogged would fall for the lifeguard and then she'd find out about this blog post and then she'd dump him even though he really loves her. That would be funny.
The pool is a great place to meet people. She already knows that your body is vastly different from the men in her peer group
C'mon, will. I'm sure ogged had his Lur tail removed when his family emigrated from Iran.
if she has a crush and it's a "he's so sophisticated and fascinating and we could go to the movies and laugh wittily" kind of crush, well, that could be untidy.
You're right. It could be awkward if she thinks Ogged is gay.
54: But didnt you tell me that Ogged is really hairy? Might this lifeguard be mocking his hairy back?
The time has come, my friends, for me if not to join the Dark Side, to at least hear what it has to say for itself.
I'm just proud that you're open-minded enough to pursue an African-American, ogged. But you should stop referring to her as "it".
The time for making that joke was 50 comments ago, apo.
So, other than the outright lies in 15, I'm not seeing a lot of advice about how to telegraph "cheap and tawdry nookie only, please."
how to telegraph "cheap and tawdry nookie only, please."
"Do you have a little Iranian in you? No? Would you like to?"
You'll get your liesadvice when you answer 47.
Isn't this thread supposed to be about trying to damage or destroy Ogged's self-esteem? People seem to think that it's all about being liberal about jailbait issues, but that isn't it at all.
46 is so awesome.
Praising comments that conveniently validate your self-interest is a sexist priss specialty.
Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that you lie. I meant that you should say whatever the equivalent truth for you would be. I just didn't want to be presumptuous about what those might be.
I'm not seeing a lot of advice about how to telegraph "cheap and tawdry nookie only, please."
These days it's possible to take someone to a date at a strip club in a post-modern, ironic hipster sort of way. Or so I'm told.
So, other than the outright lies in 15, I'm not seeing a lot of advice about how to telegraph "cheap and tawdry nookie only, please."
"I am in the Navy."
Ass-uming a positive outcome, do make it a safe one.
68: Wow. I wonder what else it is possible to do in a post modern ironic hipster sort of way. Sleep with prostitutes? Join the Army?
Honestly, it all depends on whether she's a young-23 or an old-23. Specific to the 23-year-old, it can be waaay creepy or perfectly fine.
Is there grass on the infield? (The infield of maturity and introspective growth, I mean.)
"My mother would be heartbroken if she didn't get to arrange my Persian-shoe-marriage, so this is just for some fun."
There is a picture of her online, but of course I'm not going to tell you where. She is cute though; cute enough that horndog apostropher would probably cut himself if he saw it.
Look, she seems sweet enough and reasonably smart--keep in mind that is all gleaned from short hi-how-are-you's in the pool--but my sense is that this isn't someone I'd date long-term, not least because dating someone long-term isn't something I want to do at the moment.
But the lust!
Ass-uming a positive outcome, do make it a safe one.
Swap, the point of safety is to avoid a positive outcome.
Hey does Labs know is girlfriend is in the New York Times.
But the lust!
Does your giant erection slow you down in the pool?
My understanding is that fashion dictates that no one under 30 has grass on the infield of maturity and introspective growth anymore, so that's no longer a reliable measure.
Hey! I'm under 30. I resemble that remark.
Ask her out, dude. The trick is, ask her out somewhere that doesn't signal "I want to date you." Like, ask her out for drinks rather than an expensive dinner. But what the hell--be classy and take her out to an expensive bar, and order food to go with the drinks, obvs. OTOH, taking a woman out and spending money on her in an "I'm accustomed to doing this" way does rather communicate "playboy," and it can be quite enjoyable to play the arm candy role occasionally if a guy knows how to play his role correctly.
But I kinda suspect the real problem is how *you*'re supposed to have no-string sex; she's probably fine with it, the youth being the way they are these days. Not so easy to answer. Go out with her, see if she's sending "relationship" signals or just "hey, you're cute" signals. Ask her if she's got a boyfriend or is playing the field, and see if she laughs. Be cool with flirting with her for a while and maybe getting laid a few times, but flirt with other people too so as to keep your eye wandering. Does she flirt with anyone else at the pool? B/c if so, that'll help keep both of you unattached.
Just keep things on the light side, and you'll both be fine. Don't tell her about your cancer.
OTOH, taking a woman out and spending money on her in an "I'm accustomed to doing this" way does rather communicate "playboy," and it can be quite enjoyable to play the arm candy role occasionally if a guy knows how to play his role correctly.
Some of us feel more comfortable with gender equality.
Just keep things on the light side, and you'll both be fine. Don't tell her about your cancer.
"Oh, that. That's where they removed my twin brother."
71: I think you can only sleep with prostitutes in an emo sort of way, and join the Army in a Sgt. Bilko sort of way, so not quite the same. But who knows what frontiers the hipsters yet will conquer?
Act like you're drowning and slip her the tongue during resusitation. Ladies LOVE that.
quite enjoyable to play the arm candy role
Gross.
87: Clearly I am out of touch with modern Canada.
but my sense is that this isn't someone I'd date long-term, not least because dating someone long-term isn't something I want to do at the moment.
I smell denial. Ogged is in lovelovelove!
Isn't there some kind of tell that will reveal to me whether she's a soulless deracinated urban cosmopolitan, like you guys?
92: Ask her if she likes Sufjan Stevens.
my sense is that this isn't someone I'd date long-term, not least because dating someone long-term isn't something I want to do at the moment.
Oh wait, you're worried about breaking her poor widdle heart?
Please. Ask her out, don't be a lying asshole, and it'll be fine. She'll probably move on before you do, what with being young and cute and all.
Does she get into detailed arguments about asinine tangents?
I think the real problem is that ogged is overthinking it and assuming that 23-year-olds are just dying for permanent relationships or are fragile flowers or something. The girl's probably had more casual sex than ogged, and if she's not into casual sex, she probably already knows that about herself and isn't going to become confused because she went out on a date.
Ask her out for drinks, see what happens.
Oh wait, you're worried about breaking her poor widdle heart?
I'm always worried about that, B. I don't buy this "she'll be fine" business.
93: No, that's more "neo-hippie." Tell her you like So So Many White White Tigers and see if she reacts positively.
Dating someone long-term isn't something I want to do at the moment.
One day at a time.
Don't go to her room, BTW. She may be planning to make a film to show in the internet.
Oh wait, you're worried about breaking her poor widdle heart?
It's a valid concern—his mere thinking about emailing the grad student without wanting to date her broke said grad student's poor heart so badly she fled the country.
and if she's not into casual sex, she probably already knows that about herself
Right. Unless she's an exceptionally clueless 23-year-old, and it doesn't sound like she is.
95 is the point I was trying to make, more subtly, in 37.2.
Ask her out, and if a "what kind of relationship is this" conversation happens (which really ought to be subsequent to nookie) tell the truth.
Wait, I thought all you straight guys on here were supposed to be ruthless, self-interested, "women over thirty and over size 4 need not apply" types. Ogged, shouldn't you already be asking her out while subtly making her feel inadequate? I mean seriously, this is shaking my whole understanding of Unfogged.
it doesn't sound like she is.
Based on what?
Dear Unfoggeditariat,
There's a guy who swims at my pool who I think is kinda cute, but he's real, real easy to read. I think he thinks he just wants to have casual sex, but I can tell I'll be the one to break his heart. Plus his boner sticks out when he's swimming; I'm embarrassed. Advice?
Signed,
Pool Of Love
I'm about to be called sexist, aren't I?
She will, though. You're basically a nice guy, you're not going to fuck her and then cut her dead the next day, you'll continue to smile when you see her and make chit-chat, you'll be friendly. It's not that hard to go out with someone and let them know that you like their company but aren't really wanting to find a life partner. Just keep things flirty, rather than getting too far into the "getting to know you" revelatory kind of talk.
In all seriousness --c'mon, dude, you aren't honor-bound to go to bed with her just becase you ask her out. You can, in fact, go out with her, determine over drinks and conversation that she has rosy-hued fantasies of the Tall Dark Stranger who will be the Father of Her Children, and drop her off safe, sound, and unmolested. There are looooots of in-between stages where you can back out.
When will you see her again? Do you swim at lunchtime?
I'm about to be called sexist, aren't I?
I just have to take this opportunity to note that last week when I was having lunch with another reader of unfogged I casually mentioned that--given how I *have* previously met pseudonymous bloggers in SF---I wondered if I'd ever run into ogged or w-lfs-n, or who else there is to run into. But this was how the conversation actually went:
Ile:"So every time I run into a 40-something year old Iranian guy, I wonder if it's Ogged."
UnfoggedReader:"Uh, Ogged is in his 30s."
Ile:"Seriously? Shoot, maybe I already missed him!"
Actually, though I probably haven't, though there was that one guy who was sitting across from me on the train a couple of weeks ago. But he was reading a book about Sufi theology, so I'm guessing it wasn't you, right, Ogged? You wouldn't sit across the train from me and not say hi, I hope. So hey, you're not 43!
To the topic at hand: I second Cala & B with the caveat that if you the "what kind of relationship is this?" conversation *doesn't* come up from her, it might be your responsibility to bring it up yourself.
My no-relationships policy was heavily affected by my realization that I was terrified of a) getting dumped and b) committment. When I realized that on-call relationships (the only alternative) are almost entirely imaginary, voila! -- NRP.
So how come, if there are so many SF-based unfogged readers, none of you ever shows up when there's a potential SF-based meetup?
I didn't think you meant it, SB.
You're a charitable sexist priss, I'll give you that.
115: dude, I totally showed up. I don't know where you were!
106: Based on the fact that Ogged is interested in her, frankly. And this: Look, she seems sweet enough and reasonably smart
I've been told that "Any chance you'd want to come over to my house to play one of these days?" projects the desired casualness in a somewhat innocuous way. But maybe that's a dirty old man line.
"I've got some delicious popsicles in my basement. Do you like popsicles?"
in a somewhat innocuous way
If you're eight years old, sure.
Ask her, "Wanna play a grown-up game?"
That way you know it's consensual.
22 years old, 8 years old, still jailbait.
There's never been a potential SF-based meetup, that I'm aware of.
And dear god, ask her out already. What have you got to lose, that you haven't lost long ago? Hot 23 year olds who want the sex with you are, well, hot.
The woman I have in mind isn't actually barely legal, she's probably twenty-two or twenty-three. But I'm about to turn thirty-four. Thirty-four! Does this make me a creepy predator or is that a category comprising only men who wear cologne?
34/2 + 7 = 24. 24 > 23. And so the answers to your questions are "Yes" and "That depends on whether you wear cologne".
What have you got to lose, that you haven't lost long ago?
The rest of that kidney, for starters. I hate waking up from a night of hot, drunken sex to find myself in a tub of ice water and a note to call 911 immediately.
He's about to turn 34. Decimals are for sissies.
126: And at least they have sex with you beforehand.
Partial kidneys are worthless on the used market. Like a Chevy Cavalier with rust problems. He's safe.
What? Are there no midgets on dialysis?
Don't know if it's been said, but...
my time of burning need.
You might want to have your doctor look at that before you have any NSA sex...
Why is everyone trying to set Ogged up for failure by asking out some young lifeguard who innocently smiles at Ogged?
He might only be 12 years older than she is, but she probably thinks he is 20-25 years older.
133: Because the follow-up post will be gold
By the way, don't you lose grass on your infield of maturity year by year? I think of my own infield of maturity as being pretty gravelly and heavily eroded by now.
134 s/b "Failure? What do you mean? Why do you hate AmericaOgged?"
Don't know if it's been said
113 comments earlier.
Dating with this age gap is not creepy. Keeping it casual is much more likely to come off as creepy and potentially harder to execute, especially if you think she might be religiously opposed to mere play. Is there another pool nearby for when this goes bad?
Is there another pool nearby for when this goes bad?
I love my pool; I won't give it up.
Arg, coming late again.
a) Worrying about age-spread is patronizing and annoying. If a young woman wants to have sex with you, really, it's super-obnoxious if you talk about how very many years older than her you are. Just fuck her.
b) Worrying about her inevitable emotional attachment is patronizing and annoying. If a woman wants to have sex with you, it's super-obnoxious to constantly remind her that you're not looking for anything big-deal right now, etc. Just fuck her.
c) Uh, just fuck her. Unless you're a total creep who lies about his intentions and talks about how much you just want a woman to understand you and care for you in times of need, she's probably a big enough girl to take care of herself emotionally.
As a young woman who has spent the past ten years trying getting laid with older dudes, I can promise you that their worrying about my emotional state or perception of age-difference-related creepiness is the only thing that has gotten between me and hot, all-night, repeated, short-term sex.
You know, I think I've already hurt her widdle feelings by not asking her out. Nowhere to go but up, yeah?
123: Why is everyone trying to set Ogged up for failure
You must be new here.
1–98 is wrong. (On preview, so too is everything but 119 and 120. I must learn to write faster.) You really must emphasize the age discrepancy. First, ask her out, innocently. Second, pick her up Saturday morning and take her to an amusement park or better, to the mall. At opportune moments in the conversation, exclaim, "I didn't know girls your age could do things like this!" or "Are you tall enough to go on that ride?" or "Don't you want to go in Abercrombie & Fitch? I heard about that place. It's, how you say it, 'rad,' right?" Make sure you eat pizza. Then, when you see she is as tired of it all as she is, break into tears. Choking through sobs, explain how your wife died two years ago--it doesn't really matter how she died, just that that this is your first date since then. In addition, tell her about the cancer. Her disgust will be overcome with pity; she will then sleep with you. Meanwhile, you will have given her reasons both never to call you again and to feel fully justified in having shown some poor old guy a good time. Truly, NSA.
It'll be hilarious if I don't ask this woman out because I like my pool too much.
Will respond to AWB in a moment, gotta do something...
He might only be 12 years older than she is, but she probably thinks he is 20-25 years older.
This is definitely false. The only person who ever worries about age difference in these situations is the older guy. The young woman tends to collapse it and think of it as "just 12 years" or whatever.
90: In socialist Canada, hooker cruises you.
Actually, 138 is right. Maybe Ogged should go the other direction entirely and invest in massive, smothering earnestness. Ask if he can come to Bible studies at her Church, offer to cook creamed-corn casseroles and watch "Davey and Goliath" together, that sort of thing.
Arg, coming late again.
Probably due to the age difference, AWB.
But seriously, ogged, I have had like three actual dates in my entire life, but even I know that you're looking way too far ahead here. The proper thing to do here is say "hey do you want to go out for [drinks or coffee] sometime". If you're already planning for how to get her Claws of Clinging Commitment out of you at that point, Murphy's law guarantees that she will shoot you down.
AWB, tell us what you really think.
Ogged, AWB might be available.
I think AWB is trying to get ogged to come on to make a pass at her.
Though I have a hard time acting that way myself, I think AWB is right: if you can get her to sleep with you do it--if she gets her feelings hurt, it won't be the end of the world.
151: Seriously, I don't mean to overemphasize this, but I find it really absurd that guys care so much. What's funny is that my ex was nineteen years older than me, and the age difference really never came up; he felt physically as young as me, and except for having had a lot of interesting experiences, I never thought of him as a much older guy. My new boyfriend is eight years older than me and brings it up pretty often, how young I am, how old he is, etc. I'm hoping the newness will wear off in a few months, because it's wearing thin.
157: You're only as old as who you feel.
White Bear:
That is only true if she thinks Ogged is hot. What is the chance of that?
Otherwise, he is just an old guy.
Who's to say ogged would think I'm hot? I'm guessing he wouldn't.
The age thing isn't my main concern--that's more of a social question: is this considered creepy? You all say "no," so, fine. The other issue is that, like I said, my sense is that this is someone I could hang out with pleasantly, but not quite seriously, and that feels wrong, so I turned to the mavens of wrong for help, because the lust, etc.
I'm hoping the newness will wear off in a few months, because it's wearing thin.
Give him that speech and it will stop.
I wish I could insert it in the Congressional Record.
Pleasant but not serious sounds like a great time could be had by all. Why would that be creepy? You'll probably annoy each other soon enough that longevity won't be a problem.
157: Theory: guys care so much because they remember how they felt about the 34-year old loser who used to cruise their insecure female classmates at high school, or the creepy 40-something ex-roadie still trying to rock the bar scene with the youngest females he can find. Any sufficiently large difference makes it feel like you're That Guy, and That Guy empitomizes pathetic.
If her feelings get hurt, I'm holding you personally responsible, AWB.
I wish I could insert it in the Congressional Record.
Take it out for drinks and see what happens.
The other issue is that, like I said, my sense is that this is someone I could hang out with pleasantly, but not quite seriously, and that feels wrong, so I turned to the mavens of wrong for help, because the lust, etc.
It probably is wrong, but it's a minor wrong, at worst. Cripes, just sleep with her and then end it, if it bothers you that much.
161: Yeah, well, what you sense at this point isn't relevant. You're evaluating your compatibility with your crappy little mental model of a person, not with the person herself.
Once you've had drinks and nookie and conversation with her, you can update your mental model of compatibility, and then maybe we'll care what your evaluation is.
You can find another 22 year old anywhere. A good pool is hard to find.
I don't understand why you're so worried about her feelings, ogged. What is she, a baby bunny? I think we tend to think young women will get their feelings hurt only because of the stereotype in 164 of the older guy who lies to young women, flatters them, makes them think he's interested in the long-term, and then cheats on them or fucks them over.
I try, whenever I start dating someone, to make sure they know that I'm likely to dump them after about three dates, but I am hoping to have some incredibly hot sex across those three dates. I know it sounds mean, but it almost always results in hot sex and no hurt feelings.
161: ogged, you are my sister. Meets a young man. Likes the young man. Finds some flaw or potential problem to fixate upon. In a year and half, she may find a new job. Therefore, no reason to date because she will move away from the young man and in a year and half there will be no way to tell if he's the one by then so it'll just lead to a nasty break up and he'll be hurt. Or the other man. He seems nice but he really likes the Steelers and what if in ten years they have a son whose soccer games are Sunday afternoons?
The response is the same: "For the love of christ, it's drinks. You don't have to have the whole thing plotted out to know if you want to have a drink."
I wish I could insert it in the Congressional Record.
Yes, but will the Congressional Record be clingy and emotional afterwards?
Ogged, ask her out. If she wants to sex the proverbial Mutombo she'll let you know. If she doesn't, she'll let you know. You've exchanged nothing but hi-how-are-you's by your own admission and yet you've created this scenario in which you are some craggy beast creeping into the room of her nursery. I think you've mapped this one out a little farther than the horizon goes from here.
As to sexing someone with whom you wouldn't otherwise hang out in any tremendously personal ways, you're either comfortable with casual sex or you aren't. If you don't know the answer to that by 34 there's nothing we can do to help you.
ogged, you want to sleep with her and you wanted a defensible justification for doing so. Read the thread and pick three.
109 and 110 have it absolutely right, Ogged.
All you have to do is not be a jackass. Don't act like you're interested in a long-term relationship and pay attention to her signals when you're talking. Nobody says you have to have sex, and if you get that far, it's either patently obvious that there are NSA (because you're tearing the clothes off after no substantive talk), or you'll have had many opportunities to get the message across implicitly.
It really sounds like she should be worrying about you on the experience front, not the other way around.
It's almost as if you're a ... ... NiceGuy[tm].
Don't tell her you're Iranian, though. You're allowed to lie about that.
175: Wait, wouldn't it be treasonous for her to sleep with him? Aid and comfort to the enemy and all that?
AWB and everyone, this guilt about age differences seems very new. Traditionally a ten or twenty year difference was not only normal but preferred, but those were the old sexist days of arranged marriages, chattel slavery, human sacrifice, cannibalism, and wood stoves. Even in my younger days few felt that way, though lots of younger women were unattracted to older guys.
Usually the change is blamed on feminism, but maybe it was the youth culture thing starting with Elvis. Back then a 20-13 relationship was OK (Jerry Lee Lewis), but probably not a 30-20 one. Not sure about that.
In my Philip Roth book I last read, the prof was just barely 30 and the student was 20 or so. All her profs hit on her because she was both beautiful and smart. Apparently they were all needy too, and her last words to the Roth-figure were "I can't save you. I'm only twenty years old."
She can't save you, Ogged.
176: Wait, wouldn't it be treasonous for her to sleep with him?
Ergo, even hawter. Tell her you're Iranian, Ogged, and that you'll let her know all about the Sekrit Nukular Weppins... for a price.
"I can't save you. I'm only twenty years old."
Wasn't that Coetzee?
Apparently not, but you sure do like to quote it, John.
What's great about this thread is that it's manifestly clear that ogged has already decided that he can't sleep with this girl, we all know it, and yet we're all participating in the illusion. Next 22 year-old, ogged, just go for it.
115: I was at the first one. *You* were the one who flaked.
177: Is that the plot of every Philip Roth book? Because I've only read one, which wasn't that one, and it had that plot too.
I read you as "a few" John.
There is some pretty virulent ageism, but there are also obviously women who don't give a damn. Should be easy to tell the difference.
But I just might do it this time, Jackmormon!
181: I think Ogged is just lowering expectations beforehand, so that if anything does happen everyone will proclaim him some sort of über-stud.
"The other issue is that, like I said, my sense is that this is someone I could hang out with pleasantly, but not quite seriously, and that feels wrong, so I turned to the mavens of wrong for help, because the lust, etc."
This too is simple.
If it doesn't feel good, don't do it.
The feeling good part is after all the *whole point* of the exercise, n'est-ce pas?
If you're still thinking in these terms after talking to her for a bit, I'd advise you not to go farther. My experience is that sex is no good if there's no emotional/mental connection -- which doesn't inherently mean "strings" but it does mean sympatico and a certain amount of respect for the other person's presence and way of being.
But how do you know after nothing more than a few hellos? You don't. That's why you get a drink with the girl and find out, instead of overanalyzing a few potentially skewed data points. Don't worry, Ogged, women are really good at this stuff. You are likely no match for her, even a 23 year old. Just don't do anything that feels like lying and nobody will get hurt.
179: No, I think it's Everyman, but I also thought the line was Disgrace-ful.
Not really the plot of Everyman which I'm reading now.
185: It's like Lucy and Charlie Brown, only in this case it's Charlie Brown tormenting Lucy by refusing to try to kick the football.
Arguably, The Plot Against America could be summarized as "I can't save you [, America]. I'm only twenty eight years old."
It's all of us old guys, not just Roth and Coetzee.
OK, back when I was 30, before many of you were born, I worked in a high school. And many of the 17 and 18 year old students were beautiful, dressed to killed, and sulked around looking horny all the time. And occasionally they'd flirt with me a little.
Now the guys that age were a bunch of dorky slumps with creepy attitudes toward women. How could I fail to ask myself, "How could I possibly be worse for these lovely ladies than these guys?" ? [Note question-within-question form]
I am guilty only of sin in thought, but the very fine music teacher went further than that. Unfortunately for him, the student he gave the extra-special turtoring to was the niece of a member of the school board. He disappeared without a trace between Friday and Monday.
It's a common theme. Franzen did it in The Corrections, too.
But it is too the plot of Everyman, if you don't let any of the women speak.
"I've got some delicious cookies in my room. Do you like cookies?"
192: many of the 17 and 18 year old students were beautiful, dressed to killed
And serial killer Emerson is undone by a Freudian slip.
Mamas, don't let your daughters grow up to date writers.
I confess to being very fond of that Roth quote.
Don't worry, Ogged, women are really good at this stuff
See Cala's sister, referenced above. Decent advice, though.
186: ... everyone will proclaim him some sort of über-stud.
Surely doing so would be a bannable offense.
I confess to being very fond of that Roth quote.
It's a great line.
124: Becks swung into town last spring and was teh awesome.
Lovecraft, you're really smart a genius.
To 190. I'm getting too old for this.
203: If you really loved me you'd tell me I'm a diligent, hard-working commenter instead of a genius.
See Cala's sister, referenced above. Decent advice, though.
Well, there are always exceptions. And in that case, Ogged finds a soulmate, right?
I think he should print this thread and just hand it to her prior to his next swim. When he gets out, he will have his answer.
206: That's pretty close what my nine-year-old told me last night. It wasn't quite a compliment.
Good job on the punctuation, 192.
So, first question: is this wrong?...without also becoming bound by the implicit contract of human emotions?
Sex just isn't that big a deal, Ogged. If you want to be romantic, hope she remembers screwing you even a couple of months after the fact.
This thread is Ogged's equivalent of making a sex video and putting it on the internet. He's definitely of the older generation that way, not really in synch with the hookup scene.
Good lord, Apo. I need to find a new career before I have your nine-year-old's psychic twin.
Hamilton—may I call you Hamilton? In Italian, we would call you il Hamilton, so great is your name among admirers of effortless wit—you're a genius.
212: I don't think I can hold it against him, since he got it from me. The little shit.
w-lfs-n appreciates quality. I might mention that it was a rhetoricalquestion within a rhetorical question, something rrarely found in nature.
Anyway, here's how you go about it, O:
blah, blah, blah..."so where are you from?... (pretend to listen)...that's cool. I'm from Iran. Are you Iranian, you look like you have some Iranian in you. No?....Want some?"
All sex after that will be casual.
Good advice is worth being repeated.
207: My sister is a self-sabotaging ninny around men, but even she wouldn't be so confused by someone asking her out for a drink that she'd accidentally sleep with him without there being a relationship if she wasn't into casual sex.
Standpipe is the first clean, mainstream, articulate Bridgeplate.
Il Emerson's mention of "quality" reminds me of the one crucial piece of advice missed to this point: Ogged should tell her that quality dates quality and ask her what her IQ is, how much money she has and how strongly she'd rate her libido. Done and done.
Also look for a "USDA Prime" stamp on her ass, swimsuit permitting.
206, 215: I infer you don't love me.
225: Standpipeself is as far beyond "love" and "hate" as it is beyond "good" and "evil."
Il Emerson, it was in fact Everyman you were discussing before these others jacked the literature thread, wasn't it?
The Roth novel Emerson perennially quotes is My Life as a Man. It was written back in the 70s.
I was thinking about Everyman after reading AWB's sizing comment, on the gimongeous thread the other night, since the plot turns in part on that congress.
Enough about ogged. If you're an ex-president in an open marriage, and a good friend is going through a painful divorce, what's an appropriate amount of time to wait after divorce is filed or finalized to make a pass at her?
192
It's all of us old guys, not just Roth and Coetzee.
LOL, it's not just older guys. My job takes me into the local high school about twice a month or so. And I'm 24. A six-year age difference (assuming a senior is 18) might be no problem at all when I'm 28 or 30, but it sure seems that way today, especially when I have to deal with the administration on an ongoing basis and stuff. It's very rarely an issue, but here and there... for example, I remember one interview when I kept needing to remind myself, "Eye contact! Eye contact!"
Does she like steamroom?
Great visual.
233: Ex-Presidents don't have to wait until after divorce is finalized. That's one of the perks.
Does this make me a creepy predator
Not with a mere 10-year age difference, not on the face of it.
Interesting, I'd not really ever considered this from a conscientious male's perspective: Young women are *of course* more likely to be hotter than older women. What's a nice guy to do? A friend of mine has made a habit in the last couple of years of involvement with younger women (significantly younger, 15-20 years, he being 46), and his thoughts about this are all over the map. Half the time it breaks down because, ultimately, he can't take them seriously, and they leave him. He falls in love with the women they will become, not who they are now. Problematic, oh yes.
Of course, those are strings-attached relationships, not what's being proposed here.
It occurs to me that it's not inconceivable that the pool has a policy that employees may not date pool clients -- precisely because it may lose the pool clients in the aftermath. So the whole proposition may be moot. But assuming it's correct that the woman is inviting you to ask her out, maybe that's covered.
Not that this is the sort of advice you seem to be looking for, but I'd suggest: "I've been thinking of asking if you'd like to have a drink sometime, but I wasn't sure if it was appropriate." And see how she understands "appropriate."
what's an appropriate amount of time to wait after divorce is filed or finalized to make a pass at her?
First, you're a monster. Second, this would seem to depend very much on the particular situation, the fragility and vulnerability of your intended victim, etc. And I would imagine that it would only be ok to make a pass if you're getting strong signals that one is welcome, you predator.
Re 209 - Christ, I dunno what ogged's worrying about; I'm fast developing a blogcrush on a 9 year old. Should I turn myself in to the authorities now or only after I become a danger?
238: First, you're a monster.
Don't you have some kids to molest down at the pool, ogged?
But seriously, there are so many particulars in this particular situation that I'd be outing myself and boring you all to death by detailing them.
All of this is reminding me that I got hit on by a 22-year-old recently (I'm 30). I was at work (customer service); he came up to the desk and was all "I'm in a band; here's our Myspace page" etc. etc. My general policy is to be distantly friendly, but with this guy I finally had to say, "Hey, you know, I'm ten years older than you."
It was comical how fast he backtracked. "Oh hey, no, no, I definitely wasn't -- did you think --?" And then backtracked the backtrack, to come back to the desk and say "But you know, if I were, I TOTALLY could have handled it."
Okay, young dude. Totally.
It's still making me smile.
233: After she has the first post-breakup sex/relationship/one-night-stand. You sound like a close enough friend to know when this happens.
And then, after that, be ethical and circumspect until you know whether she's interested. Because she may feel placed in a horrible position if she hasn't known previously about your open marriage, and/or if she's morally uncomfortable with it.
240: I'd proceed carefully, Jimmy. Some people coming out of painful divorces are really grateful for the rebound sex and need a little exercise and ego-boost. Other people coming out of painful divorces are extremely turned-off and offended by the very idea for four or five months. Again, wanting to have sex with someone who is fragile/young/whatever does not make you necessarily a predator or a bad person. Wanting to have sex with someone specifically because they're fragile/young/whatever and using that to manipulate them does make you both a predator and a bad person.
242: Oh, she knows the score on my marriage. I seem to recall her saying something once upon a time about not being polyamory-compatible, though. I don't know if she meant she wasn't interested in maintaining multiple relationships concurrently, or wasn't interested in being in a relationship with an ex-president who was doing so.
There may be extenuating circumstances, but as a rule, people in the middle of a divorce are deep, deep into CrazyTime. I say this both from observation and having been there myself. Excellent chance that you'll find yourself embroiled in a situation you'd rather have avoided.
243: In all honesty, I don't have the courage or the spare time to make a move on her. Like ogged, I'm looking for reasons to chicken out.
The motivation, in any case, is that she's a fabulous person, strong, funny, talented, and in every way deserving of love and hot sex. So I'll probably just bombard her from a safe distance with mostly-platonic love.
Jimmy: You are already too late. You needed to get in there before the marriage completely fell apart in order to ensure her complete emotional dependence on you.
In other news, it is Unhealthy Love Week over at my blog.
Today's qwantz seems strangely on-topic, for not actually being on-topic.
The first step on the way to the no-relationship policy is the disastrous-relationship policy. Jimmy here seems to be on track for that.
249: For the first time, I see the rationale behind Ogged's analogy ban.
246: I'm in the chicken-out territory myself. I have the hots for a lady-friend who I keep thinking has the hots for me, but then I'm not sure, so I make excuses. Both of us have male partners, neither of whom would mind, I think, but then it occurs to me that they might mind. And that she thinks I'm ugly. But then why does she act so sexy to me? Is it pity? Pity sucks. But if it would get me hot lady-sex, I'd take it! But then, it might tear our lives apart. But then, it's just sex, right? RIGHT?
252: Male partners who would be threatened by that should be kicked to the curb immediately.
252: Male partners who would be threatened by that should be kicked to the curb immediately.
I've been told that failing to be threatened by a lesbian relationship when one would be threatened by a hetero relationship is sexist. But then, I've been told that pretty much everything is sexist. Except hurting people's feelings; that's still cool.
252: Right. So much safer to curl up with a good book. Also, if you don't already, the phrase "hot lady-sex" tells me you should be reading Questionable Content.
But then, I've been told that pretty much everything is sexist. Except hurting people's feelings; that's still cool.
Also, making blanket generalizations and insults about men is not sexist, as long as you limit your topics to the way men treat women.
Also not sexist: Chico Marx's hat.
237: See, this is part of why I was so put-off by older guys when I was young and in my prime. I felt like what was being said was "Older women are ugly and gross, unlike older men. You'll be ugly and gross one day, like when you're forty, but now while you're twenty you should sleep with me, the older man who is, like, forty." It was like a trade-off--you get to be the cynosure of all [older, male] eyes now, but you have to agree that women over about forty should just drop off the face of the earth--or, for preference, become invisible while continuing to bring in money and raise children. And that just bugged me too much for me to be able to enjoy the attention.
failing to be threatened by a lesbian relationship when one would be threatened by a hetero relationship is sexist
Maybe to a certain degree, but if you're reasonably certain that the person is (at least mostly) straight, then there's more of an assurance that it is only a temporary thing that doesn't have a lot to do with the guy. Hetero affairs give the impression that she's leaving the guy for another man (or thought about it, at least).
Have I mentioned that you're no fun, Frowner? (I mean, you make a fair point, but that's not the issue.)
Ogged, why don't you just cave in and search for this young lifeguard's Myspace page? And if her interests (you know, movies, books, whatever) match up with yours, then make your move.
search for this young lifeguard's Myspace page? And if
...she has one, then you know you're not interested.
Unless one of Ogged's favorite movies or harlequin romance-novels is on her favorites list.
Then it's on.
Right—if it's on her list, then it's on her list. True but uninformative.
she has one, then you know you're not interested.
So, I hear Amish chicks are hot.
259: Ogged, you have mentioned that I am no fun. Twice in as many days, I think. But please note that I intentionally waited until late in the thread so that I wouldn't spoil the humor, cock jokes, etc.
You know, what the fuck is MySpace supposed to be? I so don't understand that whole phenomenon. Why are the pages all so ugly, and unreadable, and loud? Am I secretly 80 is MySpace Teh Suck?
264 is also known in some circles as "the Amish Fallacy."
Why are the pages all so ugly, and unreadable, and loud?
They have a page-builder app, I'm told, that sucks balls, and that's probably part of the reason. But since there are occasionally well-designed pages, another part is probably that most of its users have no taste.
what the fuck is MySpace supposed to be
The great devouring black hole at the middle of the illiteracy galaxy.
Besides, given another few months of Unfogged I might turn into a fun person--and think how proud you'd be!
The first step to turning into a fun person is emailing me a topless photo of yourself, Frowner.
257: Assuredly.
Uh, I'm here to say that "like when you're forty" bears less relation to being ugly and gross than the glossy magazines would have you believe.
Incipient crow's-feet are hot.
266: Because MySpace lets one customize one's page to suit one's taste, and the vast majority of people have no design sensibility (myself included). There are numerous "social networking" sites that do not let you make your personal page ugly as hell, and to a first approximation no one uses them.
The first time I visited MySpace I realized that I am truly Old. It's like being in a train station in the third world: it's loud, messy, you are assaulted from all sides, and it takes forever to get out.
258: From the male perspective, it is simpler than that. If a your female partner is having a lesbian affair, you don't smell another male dog, so nothing sets you off.
Parsimon is going to spend the rest of the thread trying to pick up the older women of unfogged.
266: Myspace is the second coming of Geocities. Did we really need to learn, yet again, that when morons are given customizability, they commit crimes against aesthetics? Sigh.
But the point here is that B. and AWB are totally right and you need to hurry up and give us a post-game report already.
I intentionally waited until late in the thread so that I wouldn't spoil the humor, cock jokes, etc.
I do appreciate that, Frowner.
The Myspace hating is completely justified. I had a recent minicrush on a girl five years my junior extinguished today, simply by finding her page on Myspace. Now, every time I see her I can't help but think "she thinks yellow-on-black is an exciting color-scheme, and is obsessed with the Rocky movies." Guh.
272: Older women are hot in ways younger women cannot achieve. And vice versa.
Maybe I should sign up and see if it's possible to make one that looks ok. Or maybe I should make something of myself. Tough call.
255: Indeed.
Ogged, when are you going to go swimming again? All this angst is bad for the constitution. I want an honest-to-goodness status update.
If you want to get laid by 23-year-old hotties and not be overcome with self-loathing, you need to make your peace with MySpace.
Which one requires less effort?
You know me, sir.
279: What's her name? One of my coworkers insists that Rocky IV is a great film; I should hook him up with your exminicrush.
The one for Philadelphia's Normal Love is ok.
Ogged, when are you going to go swimming again?
She's not there all that often anymore. But I did stalk up her email address, with a fairly straightforward, not so stalkerish search.
287: Similarly, there were Nazis who loved animals and small children. Doesn't really change the equation.
276: Parsimon is female, and likes her own laugh-lines. I don't mind crow's-feet in men, either.
288: Dear god, man, don't ask her out by email.
My 18-year-old sister is currently trying to make me feel like shit for being older than she is.
I'm not quite sure why, but I think it's perhaps something to do with her search for a prom dress and my suggestion that $700 is probably excessive.
Apo, I was merely demonstrating possibility.
290: Parsimon is female
So's Martha Washington.
286: She also appears to have a boyfriend named "Bubba." So, there's that too.
Ugh, MySpace. My band has one of thems, and I hate it. I feel dirty every time some clown I've never heard of "friends" us and an email shows up in my inbox, and it never remembers my login, so I have to scramble through my email to find the password every time, and I think I might be 80, too.
288: Dear god, man, don't ask her out by email.
The advice-taking portion of this thread is over, thanks.
271: I'm afraid I'm just too ravishingly beautiful (particularly about the chest) for the common view, w-lfs-n. You're welcome to send me topless pictures of yourself, though--nothing like a good chuckle.
281: Don't bother. I know bands that have created their gorgeous websites from scratch, have webmasters for drummers, etc. whose MySpace pages are still massive affronts to the aesthetics gods. It really is that the design tools you're given are pitifully insufficient for developing anything taht doesn't look like a colorblind 13-year-old's Angelfire/Geocities/Tripods page from 1996.
As for why anyone not representing a band has a MySpace site, that's the true mystery of today's youth (who have not yet graduated to Facebook).
Frowner is right. When I was myself a young lass, I found come-ons from older guys pretty creepy for the same reasons Frowner describes. That alone shouldn't stop you -- the lifeguard seems, after all, to be in the other camp, the one that is all, yay, old guys. But will your thirty-something female friends still respect you after you reveal yourself to be one of those guys, the ones pushing middle age (you do know that 35 is middle aged, right?) and pining after ever-younger girls, clinging to your own youth with fingers gone pruney and nerveless in the chlorinated water?
297: Because 120 gave you everything you needed.
297: From now on, Ogged creates his own advice.
292: Whoa. I can't even imagine spending that much on a wedding dress.
291:If she's phasing out her job, you should hurry up! And that also nullifies the whole she'll-let-you-drown argument.
She's lost her mind.
ogged, you now have no excuse. She's leaving the job, so it's not like if you break the poor poor flower's fragile heart, you'll be forced to see her weeping every day in the lifeguard chair.
There's already a topless picture of w-lfs-n at the unfogged Flickr group, Frowner. Your move.
There's no such thing as a topless picture, really. If you take off the top of a picture, what are you left with? A picture.—and doesn't it have a top?
ogged, you now have no excuse
And if she turns all clingy, just pour glue on her and call her a darkie.
"darkie" s/b "blackie"
My memory is starting to go.
Pouring glue is counterindicated in cases of antecedent excessive clinginess.
Then I'll tell her she really brings out the kid in me.
And in the middle of sex, you can tell her she's really earning her pay today.
She'll probably get all indignant, but a simple "shut up, hooker" should take care of that.
305: Oh, yeah, you're right--that was amusing! Never mind, then, w-lfs-n, I'm good.
Knowing someone who is within a couple of years of your age who has done this recently, I have to tell you that you will probably be surprised at how much more casual about this she will be than you.
The details: early 30's man asking out late teens woman. She did ask about the age difference and whether it was "creepy", but that didn't stop big-time hooking up from occurring. And after a few outings (insert pun here), when she revealed that she was looking for something a little more serious, she dumped his ass without a second thought.
So go for it already.
306 is the closest I've come to working on my Wittgenstein paper all day.
Wittgenstein could have saved us all a lot of trouble if he'd been born a native English speaker.
315: Should the last sentence include the three shes and the one his that it does?
I'd like to note for the record that, while I applaud ogged's effort to write with more than humdrum communication in mind, that is, to craft aesthetically pleasing prose, I simply cannot abide this: “Note please, though strain your credulity it might,”. That inversion must go.
But will your thirty-something female friends still respect you after you reveal yourself to be one of those guys, the ones pushing middle age (you do know that 35 is middle aged, right?) and pining after ever-younger girls,
Those guys don't pine for ever-younger girls; the age stays constant. In fact, you could say that those guys are the very model of constancy: they've always wanted 22 year-olds. And I don't know why his 35 year-old female friends would care one way or the other, unless they want to sleep with ogged. And even then, that could probably be arranged.
318, I count zero "she"s and zero "he"s in "So go for it already.".
Here I want to say, "Don't you know, ogged, that most of Wittgenstein's writings were composed in German?".
Think of that inversion as an easter egg of sorts, young Ben.
(Also, no one is born a native speaker of any language.)
Sweet Michael Ledeen, Ogged. if you're confident she's interested, then go go go go and go. Obviously, she likes creepy predators. Transact until you can't.
316: I'm supposed to be working something on Karl XII of Sweden, who took a shot at invading Russia a century before Napoleon. He did, in fact, follow a strict no-relationship policy and was rumored to be a hermaphrodite. He went so far as to arrange for a cousin or nephew to succeed him so that he wouldn't have to be bothered with procreation.
322: There's no such thing as a post without a last sentence, really. If you take the last sentence off a post, what are you left with? A post.--and doesn't it have a last sentence?
318: All pronomic genders are correct.
318: My take on the whole situation was that she was looking for both sex and a relationship. The fact that they came (or failed to) in an order that would be considered the opposite of normal by people in their 30s was simply not troubling to her. She got one, and when the other was not forthcoming, she moved on.
But will your thirty-something female friends still respect you after you reveal yourself to be one of those guys, the ones pushing middle age (you do know that 35 is middle aged, right?) and pining after ever-younger girls
I think I'd lose respect for someone I knew who was 35 and only dated 22 year old girls. But a friend who was 35 and dated a 22 year old girl? It would depend on if he was thinking "This girl seems really cool. I'd like to date her." or if he was thinking "I'd like to date a 22 year old. Where can I find me one of those?"
331: What if he thinks, "Twenty-two year-olds seem really cool"? Which, I think, is more often the case than one might think.
I have a friend who dates exclusively women in their early twenties, despite the fact that he himself won't see thirty-five again, no, nor thirty-seven either. Honestly, when I realized that he was dating only significantly younger women as a matter of policy (and when I saw some of the specimens he was willing to date), then I did lose respect for him. Had he dated the occasional much younger women, it wouldn't have bothered me.
332: Well, if he thinks "22-year olds are ipso facto cool", then he's kind of immature. And that's the trouble with dating guys who only date much younger women--they tend to have all the disadvantages of a fellow 22-year-old with few of the advantages, unless you're just out for the dollars.
"Twenty-two year-olds seem really cool"
For what purpose would you need exactly 22?
I'm attributing the uptick in requests to join Deggofnu to readers and n00b5 catching up on the archives and not to the mention of topless pics of Ben w-lfs-n (which apparently cannot, and definitely should not, be).
335: I could take a lot more than 22.
How can you laugh at this when poor Anna Nicole Smith is still unburied?
Ogged, you have mentioned that I am no fun. Twice in as many days, I think.
Enjoy it while it lasts, before his attention turns to the younger and even less fun.
If Ogged has any married friends, his friends' wives will immediately look down upon him for dating a 22 yr old.
As if, ogged. I don't date people with "blogs". Unless they're very particular about typefaces. And clean designs. And there couldn't be any ads, either.
Some of his friends might be the wives.
328: If you remove the last sentence from this post, it doesn't have a last sentence anymore -- only a number.
342: "look down on him for dating a" s/b "feel intense competitive anger toward the"
345: If they're a source of fix-ups expect the pool to dry up. This could be a blessing, of course, if they're fixing him up with haggard old 35-year-olds.
Too bad, Bridgeplate; I'm just about to rediscover my lost youth.
350 comments in, and they start telling me about the drawbacks.
348: only if a preference for 22YOs starts to look like a pattern, though. One 22YO might just act as a stimulus.
I'm just about to rediscover my lost youth.
Chicagoan, check. Clown suit? Do we have a positive on the clown suit?
One 22YO might just act as a stimulus.
Indeed.
I'm ashamed of 352. Such poor execution.
345: They would still be pissed that he wasnt dating one of their single friends.
Wait, strike that. Maybe they would be happy.
only if a preference for 22YOs starts to look like a pattern, though.
I have trouble imagining myself dating someone who couldn't have been in high school or college at the same time I was. That said, I find the above position baffling. Ogged's out for sex, and not much more, or so it seems from his post. If that's really what's on the table, and ogged has a sexual preference for twenty-somethings, then...he's doing the right thing. And it seems bizarre to believe that a preference for twenty-somethings is deviant. Find any thirty or forty year-old friend you have, and ask to see a picture of themselves in their twenties. Then ask which of the two you would prefer to have sex--and just sex--with. Is this really a hard question?
Find any thirty or forty year-old friend you have, and ask to see a picture of themselves in their twenties. Then ask which of the two you would prefer to have sex--and just sex--with. Is this really a hard question?
I don't know...a lot of forty-year-olds had facial hair in their twenties, but don't have facial hair now.
I do have friends who have gotten strikingly better looking as they've gotten older.
360: Are they your friends or your son's?
358: If a man always seems to be pursuing women in their early 20s, I'd definitely cross him off my list of potential fixups for my 30-40-something friends, because why put them through the rejection? And I'm certainly not going to fix him up with my 22 year old niece, because are you kidding? She can find her own casual sex. There are rules for this fixup stuff.
362: Do you actually have high standards? I thought the qualifications were not living with wife, not gay, not living with mother, and something approximating a job.
364: That's for grownups, not for barely legal relatives.
barely legal relatives
Wait, you can be arrested just for being related to people? What has become of our constitutional protections?
I meant your standards for 30-40 something yr old female friends.
I'm thinking about another angle here, and if I had a female friend who had just gotten over a spot o' the cancer, and she wanted to start dating someone in his early twenties, I don't think my reaction would be "you go, girl," so much as "be very careful," because it seems to me that a youngin' might not be able to help her when she needed it, and because why would you want to burden a youngin' that way anyway? The bloom of youth fades in time, but why hurry it up? It seems kinda selfish. Maybe I think of 23 year-olds as younger than they are, but I don't think so. And maybe this is patronizing, but older people should patronize younger people, at least a little.
"barely legal relatives"
FYI: The Carolina Porn Association owns the rights to that term.
I'm thinking about another angle here, and if I had a female friend who had just gotten over a spot o' the cancer, and she wanted to start dating someone in his early twenties, I don't think my reaction would be "you go, girl," so much as "be very careful," because it seems to me that a youngin' might not be able to help her when she needed it,
What? Are you looking for someone to sleep with or someone to give you the daily injection? If you're looking for help of the latter kind, then you're looking for a serious relationship, I would think. And, as I understand it, you believe you can rule out a serious relationship with this person.
I'm confused about what you're looking for; I think you might be, too.
Even if you're in a casual relationship, shit might come up, right? I guess you're right, I can't conceive of casual the way some people are defining it.
Fuck it, I'm just going to ask her to marry me.
368: Aren't you procrastinating on just getting to know her and find out what she's actually like? I mean, for all you know she's had a whole raft of life experiences that make hanging out with a recovered patient totally unremarkable and undemanding.
If you're wondering why no one is telling you to be careful for your own sake, well, I thinksome people did upthread, and for my part it seems a little patronizing to think that just b/c you've had a chunk of kidney removed you're suddenly so frail a whippersnapper pool guard can break you when before she couldn't. If there's some more specific reason why you should be careful, presumably your closer friends know it and are advising you accordingly.
I can't conceive of casual the way some people are defining it.
Believe me, I understand. I have the same problem. But I think that for GA--and it's their world, we're just livin' in it--if she's legally old enough, sober enough, and willing enough, it's all good. If you can wrap your head around that, you should go enjoy yourself.
I have to say, I don't buy the Generation Awesome stuff; people don't get a whole new set of emotional responses by virtue of being born ten years later.
I can't conceive of casual the way some people are defining it.
Well, I don't either, but I always work on the assumptions that that's just me, and I'm more than happy to cheer other people on in their definition set. I wonder how much such definitions are everyone going along with what they perceive to be the coolest definition around.
I note as a counterbalance to previous comments that when I was 23 the pursuit of a NSA relationship would probably have been a very bad idea--there was a severe lack of the assumed experience at that point---but it should also have been readily obviously to interested parties within a couple of solid conversations. How could, say, coffee, possibly hurt?
You're wrong, and neither you nor actual evidence will convince me otherwise. (Also, I think there is an implied overstatement in there about how "natural" certain emotional responses are. I find the differences dramatic, and I think they were going on even as we were in college.)
368: YOU ARE THINKING TOO MUCH PLZ STOP KTHXBYE
I don't think he has, and...
/me checks watch
...it's not like he's getting any younger.
Well, Timbot, we oldsters can debate this but perhaps some members of GA will enlighten us.
383: It doesn't sound like I'm in it, but, um, what are the cut off dates?
I pretty clearly said NO EVIDENCE!
367: I meant your standards for 30-40 something yr old female friends.
You have to add "not a bastard" to the list. I don't really do the fixup thing any more anyway, because I don't know that many single men. But I and Ex did once fix up one 40ish attractive woman friend with a 40ish male friend of Ex, and heard back that although she was all smart and great etc., her body wasn't up to his high standard. So he was off the list. Then he got fired for sexing a student, so no job anyway.
Hey has anybody asked yet if this is the same lifeguard who said a few days ago she could see that -gg-d had a gut?
372: On the other hand, Ogged, she's a life guard. She probably likes saving people.
384: I think of Becks as the bleeding edge of GA, so Becks's age is the upper boundary. I think eb actually came up with the term, so maybe he'll chime in with the technical definition.
368: You're right, Ogged. You shouldn't even *think* about dating someone you wouldn't want to force to stand by you when you have cancer.
I'll be emailing you information about joining a monastery later this evening.
Now I have to ask Becks how old she is, which is undoubtedly going to make me feel unaccomplished yet again. Thanks a lot SCMT.
Don't worry about it Ile, she's 47.
(And needless to say, balding.)
You shouldn't even *think* about dating someone
If I recall correctly, he's looking for a relationship somewhere short of dating.
394: That's what I thought, too, but now he's afraid that maybe he'll have to lean on her while he has cancer. Which isn't the kind of thing one worries about with the random hookups, so much.
Scale of 1-10: how pathetic is posting a casual sex ad on craigslist?
My mom is calling her right now to see if she's suitable.
390: Some people just take being a gracious host to an extreme, that's all. The blog was set up so we could all bond by making fun of Ogged, and now he doesn't want to let us down.
(Note how Unf and Bob have been written out of the revised founding story.)
Happy belated birthday, 396!
Quit thinkin' and ask her out. Ratiocination just gets in the way.
394: is it wrong to want a nurse with whom you can have casual sex?
397: Do Iranians do a whole biodata thing or not?
Speaking of Iranians, and age gaps, and monasteries, and vulnerable young women, and sexy blondes---has anyone here read Abandon by Pico Iyer? Any opinions?
396: Can't make a judgment on that without reading the text of the ad.
396: Depends. If you are a man, and are thinking that there is a non-effectively-zero chance that you will actually get casual sex with a woman from it, I'd imagine "10". But who knows - give it a shot and report back.
401 -- or a casual sex partner on whom you can suckle.
401: Absolutely not! How could anyone even ask such a thing?
Even if you're in a casual relationship, shit might come up, right? I guess you're right, I can't conceive of casual the way some people are defining it.
That might because we have no clue what the hell you're after. From your original post, it sounded like you wanted a very casual practically fuck-buddy relationship because you were worried you'd wake up with a superserious girlfriend after she ran into the power of your Persian cock.
Now you seem to be saying that you don't want a casual relationship, but you don't want her to be expecting a ring either (snarky aside: because this is a common problem?), so perhaps you've realized that there is a middle ground. Is it that you're worried that you can't have a girlfriend and see where it goes because 23-year-olds shouldn't be tied down with worrying about cancer? And you don't want casual sex except that you do?
406: I agree. That is why the question confuses me. The lifeguard knows CPR and is willing to work for minimal wages. If she is willing to have sex with him, she sounds like the perfect nurse maid for him.
Ogged, after two drinks ask her if she knows that nose size is directly related to masculine endowment. She'll want proof. Wait till after a couple more drinks.
Yeah, ogged, I'm confused by how much you're expecting to make a potential lover handle w/r/t teh cancer. I'm dating a dude who had a bout with it about a month before we hooked up, and all I really was asked to do was, like, be aware of and not surprised by a scar, which, in your case, she's already seen. Now that this dude and I are more or less bf/gf, I think to that load has been added, to be semi-reasonable in the face of slightly fluctuating weight/mood issues, which I don't really notice anyway, being the cold hard bitch that I am.
I agree with Cala. The goal posts are moving. (Not necessarily a bad thing -- may mean all this advice is clarifying things for you.)
I will say that I took the post to be an evolution of the stance reflected in his comments way back in the "How many partners is too many" thread. Back then, it seemed as though a higher degree of emotional involvement was required; this post seemed to indicate a disinterest in emotional heavy waters.
I dunno; could be misreading.
410: Is this the same one that broke out into rashes?
413: The same. I don't think that had to do with teh cancer, though. That was just straight-up weird bodily interaction stuff. I think he also came down with mono. AWB's lovemaking technique involves getting the recently cancer-ridden boy ill enough in other ways that he forgets about his recent struggles. The rashes stopped, though, thank God.
I agree there's confusion, and I appreciate y'all following the path--I think I think want something casual and easy, but keep running into an inability to actually imagine what that would be like. The cancer thing was just me musing, really, and yet, don't you like, talk to the people you have casual sex with? I'm such a naif.
It sounds like Ogged should be dating an LPN, not a lifeguard.
415: I guess different people do it in different ways. Whenever I tried to make conversation with casual sex partners, they said it was a sign that what I *really* wanted was a relationship, which I found pretty annoying. Ideally, a good casual-sex thing will last no longer than a month, include multiple coital events per date, and the dates will be spaced at least four days apart. Anything beyond that, and you're headed for a relationship. But, should you happen to have found someone you find surprisingly compatible, you can, after that month, then go back and do all the nice romantic shit you omitted the first time around.
Plus, it's good to keep an eye on the intercourse-to-contact-hour ratio and have a goal number in mind. If it falls below 1/4, for example, you may have to decide it's not what you're looking for.
Jesus Christ, I'm a monster. This is all to say I can tell I'm actually dating someone when I stop keeping eyes on all these boundaries.
Ogged, after two drinks ask her if she knows that nose size is directly related to masculine endowment. She'll want proof. Wait till after a couple more drinks.
Then hand her a copy of Tristram Shandy.
415: "Talking to" does not mean "expecting heaps of emotional support when I get cancer from." Really.
That's what blog readers are for.
Arg. So you want sex, but not a relationship, and you've heard of this thing the kids do called casual sex, and that sounds like just the ticket, except that you're not sure how to go about getting it or what it would require?
How about just asking her out and seeing where it goes? Look, she's 23. Chances are, she's going to be more worried that you, Mr. Nearly 34, are hunting for Mrs. Ogged, and will get serious more quickly than she. I really don't think you have anything to worry about.
(In the seriousness department I mean. Obv.)
Have the goalposts really changed that much? The advice wrt to the NSA part was along thelines of being very upfront. Perhaps that can be delayed slightly until Ogged figures out what he wants, but it still seems like it's worth asking her out to coffee or drinks and finding out what she's like and if she's really interested.
I mean, gosh, at this point I'm so curious I'm tempted to find her and ask her out to coffee.
389: I don't actually remember the circumstances under which I came up with the term; I think I was making fun of the idea of substantial generational differences from late 20s to mid 30s. Ogged is in generation timid and hidebound, if I'm remembering it right. Awesome was just a word being used often to describe a lot of stuff at the time. I didn't expect it to catch on.
[I have no opinion on the actual subject of the post.]
I meant Ogged's goalposts. As in, when he set up the situation he was asking about what would be fair to Lifeguard and then someone (Helpy-Chalk, I think) observed that it seemed to be more about what he was comfortable with. And here we are 400+ comments on.
I mean, gosh, at this point I'm so curious I'm tempted to find her and ask her out to coffee.
"Hey, so do you know this Iranian guy with a big scar? Swims at your pool, I think."
I seem to recall Tim once defining Generation Awesome as younger than him, older than me, and (for some reason) not eb.
423: "The advice wrt to the NSA part was along thelines of being very upfront."
Yes, and I still hold that truthfulness is incredibly important. However, if ogged has really serious reasons why it MUST not drift into Actual Dating (and some, I'm sure, do exist), it's not bad to keep some goalposts in mind, not just because she would push it (highly unlikely), but because he might, perhaps without realizing it. Guys end up in relationships they hate all the time, somehow, and I assume it has something to do with an eagerness to please mixed with a reluctance to hunt down other sources of sex.
if it falls below 1/4, for example, you may have to decide it's not what you're looking for.
AWB has casual sex down to a technique.
Ogged, after two drinks ask her if she knows that nose size is directly related to endowment.
If she has a very large or a very small nose, don't.
AWBs relationship-free life seems like a lot more fun than mine, She has solved the mystery of life, so I want to marry her and live happily ever after.
An LPN is a cut-rate RN .
LNP (licensed nurse practitioner?) maybe?
And the last sentence of 428 is uncannily accurate, I think.
And the last sentence of 428 is uncannily accurate, I think.
Indeed, AWB, monster that she is, has looked into the heart of darkness.
I defined you out of GA, teo. Your generation is going to usher in the end of the world. Sorry about that.
Maybe we could get AWB to pretend to be a lifeguard.
I think that part of Ogged's problem is that if Lifeguard wanted a superficial relationship she'd probably want it with a young hot superficial guy.
LPN, licensed practical nurse, non-college, 2 years JC.
423, 426: It would be monstrous of me to offer a cash bounty to the unfogger who beats ogged to the seduction, wouldn't it?
It's probably too late, but if Ogged spoke broken English he could probably keep it superficial. Also, if he wants to cut things off he could ask to borrow some money.
Way back up the thread: anyone who would prefer 18-year-old Cala to 27-year-old Cala is out of their damn minds.
431: That's the funny thing, Jake. I wouldn't stand for a relationship that made me unhappy, and neither would most women I know. They will limp along in a bad one for a few months, compassionately hoping and asking for improvement, and then they'll leave. But guys will just stay with someone they hate, and then complain about the poor lady behind her back. I think it's disgusting, and usually a sign of cowardice.
The most common reason I've broken things off with a guy is that I'm afraid of becoming that maligned lady. I say, "Sure, you say you like me, but you are less-than-delighted with pretty much everything about me. You say I'm pretty, but you never look at me. You say you respect my ideas, but you never hear me out. Dude, seriously, find someone you actually like, because I deserve someone who actually likes me."
You're going to really like Cala once she's out of college.
Cala, when are you getting into town for the apa? Or do you even know yet?
I wonder if I'll still like her when she's dry and clothed.
This all sounds like an early David Lodge novel set in a swimming pool instead of a university.
440: That sounds like an extraordinarily healthy way to conduct yourself.
Not sure yet. Definitely Friday, potentially Thursday. (There are a couple of San Francisco airports, it seems, and I don't know which is the one people fly into.)
If people left relationships just because the relationships made them unhappy, civilization as we know it would come crashing to a halt. That is my goal.
APA, ogged. April. Easter weekend, because the academy is godless.
Totally off topic, but there's something hot about watching a swimmer dry off and then put some clothes back on. it's like a reverse strip tease. Makes no sense, but there it is. Also the drying off bit is. . .nice.
448: It seems to annoy the hell out of the dudes in question. They cry and say they'll try harder, which only makes it worse. From what I can tell, it's a really mean thing to say.
I wouldn't stand for a relationship that made me unhappy, and neither would most women I know. They will limp along in a bad one for a few months, compassionately hoping and asking for improvement, and then they'll leave. But guys will just stay with someone they hate, and then complain about the poor lady behind her back. I think it's disgusting, and usually a sign of cowardice.
I can't argue with this (because I'm on my way to SLAYER), but I would. C'mon. This doesn't pass even the low bar set by Unfogged comments.
450:
SFO = big and famous, most flights
SJC = close to silicon valley
OAK = cheap
448: Sure, it's mean. No one likes to be told that they're behaving in a somewhat pathetic and self-interested way, and that they need to change if they want to do anything with their life. Doesn't mean it's not sometimes true, and that it doesn't sometimes need to be said.
Also, to the extent that guys are staying in an unhealthy relationship out of a desire to please, letting them know that it's not pleasing is a pretty useful thing to do.
They cry and say they'll try harder
Wait, is this an embellishment?
440: yeah, cowardice. I totally did that for a year. It was awful for everyone concerned. Ugh. Good that you don't put up with it.
458: Well, 'smasher, I assumed she meant strong and independent women like her or that she runs with. Obviously plenty of women stay in plenty of horrible relationships. All of our caluclations are operating in fairly narrow slices of class and culture. . . .
460 -- or there's always MOD.
I felt like 440B in my most serious relationship. My ultimate understanding was that she loved me in some sense, but wanted me to be someone else
I have to say I get concerned sometimes about the current, what with his being an actor AND eager-to-please. Like, he does all the cuddly, adoring, thoughtful shit that people who like you do, but how do I know it's not just a scene? I am just going on trust with this one.
460 -- or there's always MOD.
The Method Of Death is dispreferred.
It doesn't sound like you trust your own judgment all that much these days, though.
guys will just stay with someone they hate, and then complain about the poor lady behind her back
I've known lots and lots of women who have done this. It's awfully common behavior for both.
474: I think Ile is right that my milieu tends to be a certain way. It's amazing what a particular social set will find acceptable and not.
a certain way
More euphemising from Ile...
Maybe I'm younger. In my millieu, the most common method of break up is that a) the couple has been together a year and a half or so b) they don't want to get married and c) one of them is starting a new career or in grad school, so there's a lot of "i like you, but not right now" breakups.
They cry and say they'll try harder
Is the crying common? And be honest ladies, if a guy cries and pleads when you go to break up with him, your gut reaction is disgust, right?
And be honest ladies, if a guy cries and pleads when you go to break up with him, your gut reaction is disgust, right?
And this isn't true when the genders are reversed?
Of course not, we conclude that the woman has good judgment and negotiating skills.
I would be off-put, if not disgusted. Worse: crying when you're just starting to date someone that you think they won't be a good longterm match and that would be sad.
Ogged, you're not going to ask this chick out, are you?
I cry whenever someone leaves a comment that isn't funny.
Ogged, you're not going to ask this chick out, are you?
Only time will tell, young B.
He's waiting until she gets a little older.
your gut reaction is disgust, right?
More like horror.
And this isn't true when the genders are reversed?
Is it? It's true for me, but I think a lot of guys just end up feeling guilty and dickish.
I cry sometimes when I'm surprised by someone's reaction to me. No, it doesn't disgust me. I guess I find it pretty shocking when someone who I really don't think likes me turns out to have some investment in our being together. But it also doesn't convince me that I'm wrong about their genuinely caring.
The only time a guy has cried (cf. 481), I've felt a mixture of pity and revulsion. Pity, because I don't like being mean, and revulsion, because the sexist lizard brain was thinking oh come on, i should not be more of a man than you.
He's waiting until she gets a little older
I wish you were a little bit older,
I wish I was bolder
I wish I had a twenty-three-year-old
I could mold her
I wish I had fewer bourgeois hangups about sex
and a big black Beemer.
Hmm, someone cried when he broke up with me, which was incredibly annoying at the time but later made a lot of sense and probably patched up our friendship.
I think the more manly a guy is in general, the more his crying at appropriate times is moving and not annoying. When he's generally snivelly and whiny, crying is not good. But I really hate how choked up and teary eyed I can get a) at sentimental movies and b) when talking about certain deeply emotional things. So I might be projecting.
476: That's what I'm here for, amigo.
Once I was at the point of breaking up with someone, I didn't want to cope too much with their messy leaky emotion secretions. That makes me deeply selfish, obviously, but hey.
Oh god, I hate it when I get all lump-in-the-throat and teary at the worst possible times. Like talking to an authority figure, or watching an AT&T commercial.
I get really teary when I can tell the person I'm talking to is repressing some strong emotion. It happened at work a few weeks ago, when I could tell this woman was really really mad at me for bringing something up, and as she got more flushed with rage, and I kept telling her I just really hoped we could get deal with our emotions about the issue, she kept yelling that SHE wasn't getting emotional, godammit. But the more she struggled to hide her anger, the closer I got to bursting into tears. No, I don't think people always cry for rhetorical purposes.
o, I don't think people always cry for rhetorical purposes.
Aww man, do people still think that? I mean, wow, that kind of bites. I remember in first grade day care I had this unbelievably strict German day care mistress, and she would yell at the really little kids for crying when they hurt themselves and it just infuriated me. Crying is so unpleasant! Your nose fills with snot and your throw hurts and your eyes are rheumy! Why would anyone do it on purpose??
They cry and say they'll try harder
Wow.
How often do those AT&T ads run? I think I've seen only one genuinely tear-causing long distance ad in my life, but I've heard lots of references to them. Is it because those advertisers don't target the manly entertainments I prefer to watch: dog fighting, bear baiting, waterfall jumping, and the like?
Why would anyone do it on purpose?
I've known people who claimed to be able to turn on the waterworks purely for effect (or is that affect?). I'm not sure to what extent it was true, though.
I think one stereotype is that women and children cry to evoke undeserved pity. I learned how to do it as a child to save my life when my mom got all freaky and violent at me, and I used it again when I was dating a guy who kept trying to kill me. But, except for onstage, I would rather not cry in front of other people, lest they think I'm trying to manipulate them.
I don't think people always cry for rhetorical purposes.
Not always.
7:41 pm - "I wouldn't stand for a relationship that made me unhappy"
9:22 pm - "I used it again when I was dating a guy who kept trying to kill me"
I'm thinking 9:22 is the reason for 7:41.
Whatever. We're trying to help ogged, people. Ogged, if she tries to kill you when you ask her out, abort.
505: I don't think causality works like that.
Wait, Tim. There's the sex with crazy people thing.
kept trying to kill me
Violent and incompetent; this young man is going nowhere.
Thirty four and post-cancer? I think ogged's crazy people sex days are behind him.
Surviving cancer has given him a new bounce in his, er, step.
509: But not a quitter! That's something.
Ogged, aren't you on chemo? What if your sperm like Hulk-sperm, and can break through puny human-made plastic shields? Maybe you should avoid sex for a while, unless you want a kid. A green kid.
He's probably ready to be the crazy one in the relationship, then. A fair number of the morose older men I had casual affairs with as a young woman were conflicted about some other woman I learned about only when we broke up. It sucked, but I took my knocks, had some fun, learned some lessons.
Hey, that's right. Ogged, if you're the crazy one, then she'll be the one telling her friends that the sex is amazing. Win-win!
aren't you on chemo?
Jesus, no. Just the surgery. I have to go for CT scans every few months, but that's it.
It sucked, but I took my knocks, had some fun, learned some lessons.
There you go, ogged. It's not quite a benediction, but's it's pretty close. Feel free to tool the 22 year old, knowing that at worst she'll come out ahead in experience. That's a serious get out-of-jail-free card, my friend; don't waste it.
I don't actually remember the circumstances under which I came up with the term
You came up with that? Wow. I thought some clever demographer somewhere came up with "Generation Awesome." (You aren't a demographer, are you?)
#453. It is a far, far better thing that you do, than I have ever done.
That's a serious get out-of-jail-free card
He'll waste it, don't worry, SCMTim.
Does this mean I have to stop cutting my own hair?
I had forgotten, if I ever in fact knew it, that you cut your own hair. Mon dieu. Yes, it means that you have to stop cutting your own hair.
This isn't sounding so casual anymore, JM.
If you're hoping for the crazy sex relationship, you should hope she's religious, ogged, and be willing to put up with a small wait as you draw her over to the Dark Side.
Casual sex is like those "weekend casual" outfits you see in magazines: it actually takes some preparation and expense beforehand, and you have to get used to the idea of being a little uncomfortable. And you've gotta look good.
But in the Munich circus, I was known as the Incredible Ogged..
513: The fact that you apparently think chemo imparts superhuman strength is, uh, charming. That shit wears you the fuck out.
527: I do believe it was a witticism. Hulk? Bruce Banner? Gamma rays?
The only way to find out whether causal sex can lead to a necessary connection is through experience. Ogged is overthinking things.
Ogged is overthinking things.
Never!
If casual sex doesn't work out, you can try "formal sex," wherein you wear one of those tuxedo t-shirts through the whole ordeal.
528: Certainly it was a witticism, but the assumptions behind it are still bizarre. I mean, if he'd said "radiation treatment" that would have been a different matter.
The only way to find out whether causal sex can lead to a necessary connection is through experience.
No experience could possibly teach us that two things are necessarily connected.
532: Yeah, I see your point, actually. He should've alluded to the Green Goblin.
re: 533
I agree with my fat compatriot. Nice jacket, btw.
Cala: Also, SFO is on BART and OAK has a shuttle to BART, while SJC means you need to set up some sort of shuttle service or rent a car to get anywhere else. Also, Southwest and Jetblue fly to Oakland, but not elsewhere (though JetBlue opens a SFO rout soonish).
Furthermore, the 18 vs. 27 dichotomy is completely irrrelevant, the question was 27 vs. 22, which you deviously side-stepped.
531 has read Transparent Things by Nabokov.
It is saddening to see that ogged, too, suffers from the malady of Overweening Male Pride in the Dick.
Ogged, your winkie is not a mighty sword that is guaranteed to pierce a young girl's heart and make it bleed forever.
It is but a piddly appurtenance that she will crush between her young, strong vaginal muscles and stick you with a memory that'll ache forever in your old guy's heart.
"Winkie?" Ugh. That's right up there with "moist" on my unsexy words list.
(Emerson, I dare you to find Doors lyrics with either or both words in 'em.)
I did find this thread about the word "moist" and The Doors.
And also, this:
When the still sea conspires an armor
And her sullen and aborted
Currents breed tiny monsters
True sailing is dead
Awkward instant
And the first animal is jettisoned
Legs furiously pumping
Their stiff green gallop
And heads bob up
Moist
Delicate
Pause
Consent
In mute nostril agony
Carefully refined
And sealed over