The pee shy condition (there's another term for it, which is better and forgotten) is just bizarre to me. How can you not be able to pee in front of other guys? It just...does not compute.

I'd mock, except I've done this exact same thing. It always feels like such an admission of defeat, particularly if there was a long line to get into the bathroom in the first place (at a theatre, say).

It's because ogged is closeted.

"Pee shy," "shy bladder," "stage fright."

water closeted, that is! Hahahahahahahahahaha.

I've heard it called "bashful kidney," which always makes me picture a Disneyfied version of a kidney peeking out from behind a door.

Bashful Bladder?
Paruresis- About seven percent of the public has it, or around 17 million people

I hope you never take long car trips, because rest areas almost never have empty bathrooms- how much space do you need on either side to perform? Does the presence of dividers help? Does using a stall work, or does that make it worse because it's louder?

I remember being in a rock club at a trough style urinal with a couple of other guys. I'd been standing a few seconds and a female face* appeared over my shoulder, glanced down, and said "stage fright?" ... which was a sure fire way to bloody engender pee-shyness.

* a girl I knew slightly who'd come in to 'powder' her nose

We have an association!

I've felt the shyness, but don't remember any time when I didn't start peeing after a moment or so.

Ogged, couldn't you just have gone into a stall?

We have an association

. . . that sponsors workshops and support groups, no less.

Also: "each holding his wang in communal silence". Otherwise I think the lack of urine flow is easily explicable.

couldn't you just have gone into a stall?

It seems like moving from the urinal to the stall would have been even stranger than just giving up.

Wait, never mind, I don't know where I got that "each". How embarrassing.

I've had a similar experience to 9, but not quite as harsh -- a woman who had been "powdering" in the men's and walked up to the urinals to strike up a conversation. A mite odd.

Inside you will find helpful information on support groups, support seminars (workshops), and even drug therapy. There is also a useful and friendly discussion board where you can share your problems and success -- or just "listen in" -- with others who have the same problem as you.

But... if you're listening in, what if they're unable to share their problems?

I once had someone try to sell me drugs while I was peeing. The guy thrusted a big bag of pot in front of my face, in the narrow space between my nose and the wall.

rob, that was you?

I love 9 and 17. So much.

Next time, Ogged, I suggest just reaching over and poking the other guy in the ribs. Startle the piss right out of him.

I love 9 and 17. So much.

Just out of curiosity, could you expand on why you love 9 and 17 so much?

Perhaps relatedly, is it common for women to venture into men's restrooms? I've never encountered this phenomenon.

Because they're funny?

It's not common in the sense that a lot of people have it drummed into them that the other restroom is forbidden territory, but if you're in a crowded club and the line for the women's is a jillion miles long and you know the guys are all peeing in the trough and leaving stalls unused, you'd be an idiot not to go use 'em. Ditto in places that have two single-stall locking bathrooms designated (for some stupid reason) "men" and "women"--I'm not going to stand around waiting when there's a free bathroom.

And I have to say, it's true that guys are slobs.

Let me share with you a sure-fire technique for overcoming stage fright, passed on to me by a friend some years ago: Imagine letting loose on the head of the guy standing next to you. It's weird, but this method has never failed me, and I now pee in crowded bathrooms with complete confidence after years of Ogged-style embarrassments.

That's a really disturbing admission.

I don't really get what's so odd about 9 or 17, either. Surely most guys have ducked into the women's bathroom when the line for the men's was too long.

24 leaves me speechless. Ogged -- you must go field test this right now and report back. I'll buy you a Big Gulp if necessary.

Surely most guys have ducked into the women's bathroom when the line for the men's was too long.

Really? I have never, ever seen a line for a men's room that was longer than the line for the corresponding ladies' room.

This is all going to end with Ogged peeing on my head, isn't it?

SCMT might possibly be jesting about the oppression men suffer when they can use ours but we can't use theirs.

What makes this different from any other afternoon?

28: Huh. I seem to recall that it used to happen to me all of the time. It may be that I the some of the places I went were more sausage partyesque than is normal.

Ya think, Tim?

!7, etc.: Women who "powder" are not responsible for their actions.

Does the "powdering" in 9 and 17 refer to urination or to doing some blow? If the latter, it makes a lot more sense that a woman would hang around in the mens' room to converse with random guys.

31 to pretty much the whole thread.

28: I have definitely been in cafes, bars &c. on more than one occasion where the men's room line was longer. Not often, mind.

Scooped by Emerson.

Although thinking about it a little more, it seems like the dynamics of random conversation might be a bit different in mens' and women's rooms in a way that some women might not appreciate at first. That is, in the ladies' space, you have the stalls, which are clearly locations of business. Outside the stalls it's all social space. Whereas in the mens', there's an vaguely defined area around each urinal that is stall-like and hence a zone of privacy. I could see a woman unconsciously assuming that to be in front of a urinal is to be outside a stall, and hence in a social zone and approachable for conversation.

9: Did she use a stall or the trough?

This is all going to end with Ogged peeing on my head, isn't it?

That isn't the end, Labs. It's just the beginning. Trust me on this one.

24: I can't verify this absolutely, but I'm pretty sure this remedy is taken from Nicholson Baker's novel, The Mezzanine (I haven't read the book -- I remember reading about it -- I am able to verify that it has a discussion of the "bashful kidney" dilemma)

41: Makes sense. I can't remember which friend told me about the technique, but one of the suspects was a big Nicholson Baker fan and in fact read that novel while we were roommates. Anyway, it totally works. Baker should get a Nobel if he invented it.

35: it's the latter, which means 34 is correct.

Let me share with you a sure-fire technique for overcoming stage fright, passed on to me by a friend some years ago

All my months of lurking here just paid off. I don't have pee shyness, but I am so going to be imagining this from now on anyway.

I don't have pee shyness, but I am so going to be imagining this from now on anyway.

Won't the boner make it hard to pee?

I can vouch for both 24 and 41.

Some days I feel almost normal.

I just realized that, from this day forward, I will always have to wonder whether the guy at the urinal next to me is thinking about peeing on my head.

I just routinely assume that the guy next to me is toying with the notion of peeing on me in some fashion. Best to keep on your toes.

Ditto in places that have two single-stall locking bathrooms designated (for some stupid reason) "men" and "women"

It weirds people out to have bathrooms without gendercators, apparently. The basement of the german department here is like that—two single-occupancy bathrooms, one marked for men and the other for women. I just use whichever is open and closer.

(source for "gendercators".)

Imagine letting loose on the head of the guy standing next to you

Holy fuck, you just reminded me! It's been a while since I've had to pee in public but what used to work fairly reliably was imagining that I was peeing on someone's grave. (Shi'a represent!) I'm pretty sure I came up with that all by myself. But clearly we can abstract away the details and note that imagining oneself peeing transgressively is the key to overcoming pee shyness.

I don't think I can abstract away and only imagine myself peeing transgressively. I must imagine a particular transgression.

I think that's all that ogged meant, rob: that no particular transgression is key, but any particular method of peeing, so long as it's a transgressive method, will do.

Accusations of mind-too-fining hereby predacted.

There was a big ruckus here two years ago about changing those single-occupancy bathrooms to be non-gender-specific for the sake of transgendered people.

I have read some strange things on these internets, but 52 is as strange as I want to read today.

As usual, Chicago leads the way.

In my parenthetical aside in the comments to the post linked in 56, read "I" for "the men".

Children will solve your toilet shyness. Or else you will never go.

Children do not understand privacy.

Ben w-lfs-n: archetype of man.

Children do not understand privacy.

Are there no locks?

That's just how gay I am.

"Are there no locks?"

hahahahahhahahahahaah! Locks? To keep kids out?

They will only bang on the door.

Are there no locks?

Not many people know that the Einstürzende Neubauten song "Zampano" was written about just this problem.

Locks? To keep kids out?

Ah, no, you misunderstand me. I mean to keep them in. After all, one should not idly threaten to lock one's child down in the root cellar; proper follow-through is necessary.

"Ah, no, you misunderstand me. I mean to keep them in. After all, one should not idly threaten to lock one's child down in the root cellar; proper follow-through is necessary"

Are you implying that you know that the only way to peacefully use the bathroom is to go out in the yard? Because you are correct.

59 is very true.

60 is very true.

the only way to peacefully use the bathroom is to go out in the yard

Then what would you be using the bathroom for? Storage?

For aggressively using the bathroom.

"Then what would you be using the bathroom for? Storage?"

No, that is definitely not why I have locks on the outside of the bathroom. You should not listen to my kids. They are lying.

Guests, leisurely post-bedtime use, and watersports. Also combinations thereof.

Will, how old are yours?

My oldest is four, and only within the last six months has she learned not to run in and try to look at my penis while I pee. She still has to be in the room, but at least I no longer see her small face looking up at me.

Rob:

The image made me laugh.

My daughter is almost 15, but autistic. My son is 11. Our dog likes to sit between our legs if we are sitting down.

73: "Daddy, why are you peeing on my head?"

75: "Some guy on a blog told me it helps, honey."

52: Some particular person's grave, or just any old grave?

Am I the only man here who prefers to pee sitting down if other people are around?

Yes.

Really though, why would it matter if there were people around? You can stand up in the stalls.

80: But then you get the guilt. "Omigod, I'm using space that others might need more than me!" Like using a handicapped stall, but less so. Much less so, really, but still.

Am I the only man here who prefers to pee sitting down if other people are around?

Didn't we have a long thread about this? I'm also a sitzpinkler.

78: I find it awkward to use the urinals that way.

83: Easier for the ladies, though.

When I was in college, a classmate learned about "warrior shits" in which you squat above the toilet. He argued that this straightened out your colon or some other relevant tubing (help me out, anatomists) and allowed for easier shitting. I know this story should end with someone tumbling into the bowl, but actually it ends with the same guy changing his name to something Native American, embarking on a peace walk to Bolivia, and getting thrown in jail for sleeping on someone's property in Kentucky.

My husband's family cat used to bat at the stream.

I'm also a sitzpinkler

Yeah, but Labs implied that he only does that when other people are around, and stands when he is alone. The inconsistency is what I don't get. Pick one!

The inconsistency is what I don't get.

Because your cock isn't 29" long.

The reason ogged and FL sitzpinklen when others are around is that they're both little girls.

Also, if Wrongshore's college buddy's beliefs have any basis in fact, I'm betting the original term isn't "warrior shit", but "straining old man shit."

A Peace Corps Volunteer I knew of in Samoa had cinderblocks on either side of his toilet so that he could squat over it from an altitude. Weird guy -- I can't remember the whole story, but he left the PC in bad repute somehow.

You mean like when people use these things?

Yeah. I actually knew the woman who moved into his house after he left -- given that the houses we were placed in were mostly collapsing, she assumed that the cinder blocks were serving some necessary structural function. It was weeks later before someone who'd known Leroy told her what they were there for.

For warriors!

I get so impatient with people who argue that squat toilets are superior. I've even met men who are convinced that toilets à la turque are easier for women to use---so aggravating!

Keeping up the charade is even worse. You can zip up after the shyness, then wash your hands just to pass the time until the other fellow leaves.

I mean really wash those hands.

/ex

The girl referred to in 9 was taking speed rather than coke. This was a low rent rock club. But yeah, you could see why that would make someone chatty.

There was a similar rock club, in the same town, where a small clique of guys hung out in the girl's toilets -- as it was a place where the bouncers/security didn't go. Only some guys -- non creepy ones -- were extended the right to do so. The gossip in there was great ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkYDxW30vS4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ebestweekever%2Etv%2F2007%2F03%2F06%2Ficymi%2Dhelp%2Dhelp%2Dhelp%2Dthe%2Dpolice%2F

This is awesome. Help, help, help the police!

Squat toilets are a more natural experience and do not traumatize the product.

Good lord. And here I've been thinking that I'm all screwed up for being unable to squat (effectively) in the (visual) presence of others.

I have spent, at times, a painful day or two seeking the odd moment in which nobody else needed to alongside me.

i can attest to daveB's method way back in #24 -- the head pee method. laugh if you will, make whatever scat jokes you need to, but he shared this technique with me years ago and i've never suffered from stagefright since. why it works i have no idea. maybe it's the fantasy of total dominance over the fellow next to you. but it works like a charm.

for more pee posts visit http://www.greatwhatsit.com and search for "pee"

This fellow claims that years of massive overindulgence in LSD caused his paralyzing shyness. He seems to have a much worse case of it than some people here though. The only time it's ever happened to me was during the extremely brief restroom break during a Series 7 class. That was probably due to all of the trainee brokers hanging around.

Geez people, toughen up a little. As noted above, children will break you of much of this. As will communal living.

A war story:

For most of the first Gulf War the unit I was assigned to lived out in the desert. Of course, in accordance with good practice, we dug latrines and even had a wooden frame with some toilet seats attached, so one could sit down. And in the interests, of modesty, the whole thing was shielded by a canvas tarp.

The initial practice was that you would check to see if someone of the opposite sex was in there, but if it was someone of the same sex, you would just go in and sit down beside them. Eventually, however, many of the women gave up caring who was in there, particularly at night. So you never knew who was going to sit down beside you. You learn to get over it.

At the coed fraternity that McManlyPants and I were in back in the day, we did not have separate bathrooms for men and women. You get used to it really, really quickly.

102. Not a real war story because it did not begin with the phrase "this is a no shitter.." but then again, given the subject matter, perhaps a different opening is required.

actually, i just tried that search myself (mastursearching?) and realized it's not that effective.

for more pee posts click here or here.

102:

Yes. Not a war story, but the same is true during Rainbow Gatherings. The trench is dug, the planks with holes are placed, and you have to get over it. Challenging. Though.

I think it's marvelous.

103: Same deal in my coed dorm when I was in college. Most people stop caring in pretty short order.

"this is a no shitter.." but then again, given the subject matter, perhaps a different opening is required

One does indeed use different openings depending on whether one is shitting or not.

so I guess no one uses a bidet then.

Les bidets sont fabuleux! I've only been somewhere with a bidet two or three times in my life, though.

At the top of Mt. Whitney in California, there is (or was some years ago) a stone outhouse, but the walls are only a foot higher than the seat. You get a great view sitting there, and of course anyone else milling around on the summit is busy looking elsewhere.

Because he's an invert, Ogged is more bothered by same-sex observation of his piddling. Probably the whole Swedish Bikini Team could be watching him and the flow would be free and unimpeded.

I am jealous of your hiking exploits, Mr. CharleyCarp.

By the way, it is a shame that heebie dislikes you so much.

Sorry JackMormon, but I am actively trying to forget all knowledge of french to make room to learn Spanish. I want to move to Costa Rica.

Thanks, will, for not saying "Sorry, Charley."

BTW, you folks all know that today is Alamo Day, right?

emerson has it right in #112, though i've never considered the myers-briggs angle. it certainly seems to me to be a same-sex/masculinity anxiety. i've never experienced stagefright in a coed situation, so all that about coed frat houses doesn't really get at the issue for me.

How is one supposed to celebrate Alamo Day, besides forgetting all one's French in order to make room for the Mexican hordes?

I didnt. I should have used my bowie knife at dinner in their honor. I feel bad that I had Mexican.

117: By remembering something or other, I think.

JackMormon, if they had forgotten french and learned spanish, they might have survived.

Well, I went to the cheese shop for some super aged gouda, but that might just be me.

You should certainly start by drawing a line in the sand.

I did draw a line in some excellent blue cheese tonight.

I might have some tabasco sauce around...

Traditional red or green?

Red. Either it's left over from my apartment's previous dweller, or it's survived since 2000 when my mother first bought me a bunch of spices she thought were necessary to start up a kitchen. I have no idea what one is supposed to do with red tabasco.

Avocado, salt, garlic, tabasco. easy guacamole.

Or, you can convince your friends to do shots with it when they are really liquored up. Just make sure they dont spend the night.

I think the more important question is what one can not do with red tabasco. I buy the big restaurant-sized bottles. Mmmm, tabasco.

Oh, yes, guacamole! Too bad the avocados around here are usually so bad.

teofilo is correct. Tabasco in eggs, soup, chicken, cereal, etc....

It's a good thing the Alamo wasn't fought in winter. Drawing a line in the sand is one thing, but with all those solidiers watching, the general could never have drawn a line in the snow.

I always take like 20 seconds to start, but its nothing to do with others being around.

thinking abotu it, i'm quite surprised others' cocks are leakproof.

A view of Lake Geneva.

wrongshore, that nailed it.

130: Generals don't draw lines in the snow, they order privates to draw them.

Oh dear. I don't dislike CharleyCarp. Charley, I don't dislike you!

You're not actually a carp, right? Because then I don't like you.

So you don't think Charley is stinking and tastes funny?

Not with enough tabasco.

Is that why stimpson called him "Red?"

You want to smoke Charley first, or else cook him Chinese.

One puts tabasco on scrambled eggs, in black beans, in mac & cheese, in everything.

A few days on the computer and the weirdness begins to creep in on me.... getting softer; every minute I stay in this room, I get weaker, and every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger. Each time I looked around, the walls moved in a little tighter.

Tabasco is soo good. But not on mac & cheese.

Yeah, SHIT.

Fried eggs & english muffins breakfast is like one of the few things i don't put tonnes of chile flavour on. I think anything meant as a pre-lunch food i can't take heat with. Lunch & post- are bullzeyes. And don't ask about brunch.

I'm reminded of this from Poor Dick's Conspiracy:

So, I betook me to the Hashfire Inn, for a secret caucus of the hotheads,
Rebellious libertines all, lusting for life and liberty.
George Washington brought the hemp, and I the evening papers.
We quickly proceeded to get Sam Adams and young Tom Jefferson
Goodly stretched by the hemp, which smoked us all like Boston scrod.
What a fetid fervor of freedom.

a same-sex/masculinity anxiety

I could certainly buy this. The only serious case of peefreeze I ever had was at a state fair; it was late, getting near closing time, and people were lining up at the bathroom-trailer for a last whiz before hitting the road. They had one of those trough-style urinals set up right inside the door of the place, and so there I stood, a little closet-case homo, standing with my pecker out in full view of a long line of aggressively impatient roughnecks in the fairground latrine. There was no way I was gonna pee, but I could certainly smell the smoke of my sense of masculinity spontaneously combusting.

All men's rooms should have girls in them to get the pee flowing properly.

I never never never use urinals. Because I have some fucking dignity.

There's a claim that Tycho Brahe died of a burst bladder suffered in a drinking contest where the first one to pee lost, but it's not true. He did have a prosthetic nose, though.

I never never never use urinals. Because I have some fucking dignity.

So, in a place with available urinals but no free sitters, you stand on your dignity and piss on the floor?

I thought the story went that Tycho Brahe's bladder burst because he couldn't leave the Royal Ball as long as the Queen was in the room, so he just kept drinking.

I never never never use urinals.

Me neither.

There are an infinite number of ways that Tycho Brahe didn't die. The way I heard it, it was a drinking game, invented by himself, which he usually won.

Dude!

There is substantial circumstantial evidence that Tycho may have been murdered, possibly by Kepler, who had the means, motive, and opportunity, and who on Tycho's death took immediate possession of Tycho's data that he had been seeking access to for years, in defiance of Tycho's specific deathbed request that his data be left to his family.

You get used to it really, really quickly.

Indeed! When I was president of the chapter the Dean of Greek Affairs asked me how we avoided so much of the casual sexual assault and other offensiveness of stereotypical fraternity life and I said, "Make men and women share a bathroom and they have to learn to talk to one another as equals."

That said, it's vaguely disturbing to read way up-thread the endorsement of the "pee on his head" fantasy by someone who's been next to me in one of those fraternity's bathrooms.

One plus of unisex bathrooms: no urinals. Urinals are admirable for their functionality but disturbingly public. I will only use one if it's such a tight race that I think slowing down to fiddle with a stall door might run out the clock.

While we're on the topic of bathroom confessions, I confess that one of the things I miss most about my last job is sneaking downstairs and taking a foul dump in Microsoft's bathroom every now and again.

I also once taught an astronomy class to rising 7th graders and made sure to include some of the Brahe/Kepler melodrama to get them excited by the soap opera that is the history of astronomy in Europe.

154: Did I endorse that? I've never had any trouble peeing anywhere.

One plus of unisex bathrooms: no urinals.

NOOB! The urinal in the main house was fully functional when I was there.

156: It was not you. We've emailed about them?

The urinal was still there but nonfunctional when I was there; at the end of my extended undergraduate career it was ripped from the wall after failing to be turned into a planter.

Oh, right. I'm still not used to that pseudonym.

One thing about urinals you notice mostly if you're wearing shorts is that there's some spatter. Even more if you pee standing up in a toilet.

Perhaps we have here a non-feminist reason for the sitz position, so that men can start sitting without losing their macho dignity.

153: That's Wikipedia, Ogged! You put that in yourself!

I really don't think it helps for the Tycho Brahe Wikipedia article to include a photograph of some random character actor dressed up as Tycho Brahe in an episode of Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Even if Carl Sagan's Cosmos used meticulously reconstructed historical detail in its props and costumes, that could just as easily be a picture of my cousin's husband Bob all garbed up for the Tucson Ren Faire, which would contribute about as much to the world's understanding of Tycho Brahe.

Yes, John, to plug my book on the topic.

(It does sound a bit weak, honestly.)

154: Wait a minute. The "pee on his head" fantasy is disturbing? Do you not find it at least equally disturbing that you miss the good times spent actually (not fantasizing about) sneaking into Microsoft's bathroom to take, as you say, a foul dump?

163: As an immature egocentrist I find the thought of being the object of the fantasy way more disturbing than taking action against another. It's all about me, annie. Me.

I'd think there be at least some satisfaction in it for you if, e.g., w/at least 3 guys at the urinal, one guy fantasizes about peeing on your head instead of peeing on the other guy's head. You could then rejoice in "He wants to pee on my head! MY head!"

OK, now you've sold me on it.

Good. Now we just need to find someone who wants to pee on your head.

Try Craigslist.

159: But then you lose the ability to diagnose diabetes from the white spots on shoes and the gathering of flies to same.

Win some, lose some.

Now you can simply look at the flies gathering around the head of the man next to you.

I thought diabetes was traditionally diagnosed with the diagnostician's tongue.