Re: Pitchforks and Torches

1

Ha-- I was just thinking about posting this. "I'm a well-educated, successful, intelligent person" just kills me. Christ, what an asshole.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:44 PM
horizontal rule
2

1 - Ha -- and I almost titled this post "Christ, what an asshole".


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:45 PM
horizontal rule
3

Speaking of pitchforks.

"A man who tried to break up a fight between his two nephews ended up being stabbed with a pitchfork by one of his nephews, police say. All three men were drinking in their mobile home in the 1200 block of Paseo Derecho around 10 p.m. Sunday, when the two cousins began arguing over who was older."


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:46 PM
horizontal rule
4

From what I heard about this on the radio yesterday, it's not clear that he understood how dangerous the strain of TB he had was. Also, they failed to make it clear to him that they actually were trying to get him home from Italy. So from his perspective, they said something like "you might be infectious, please don't fly home, you may well die here in Italy, sorry."

So, he could be an asshole, or the CDC could be assholes. Based on my previous experience of asshole-determination when you're talking about (a) some down-on-their-luck individual vs. (b) a Bush-era federal agency, I am definitely going to withhold judgement for now.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:48 PM
horizontal rule
5

I can see a garden fork, but who keeps a pitchfork in their mobile home, except as some sort of country decorating scheme? iow, wha..?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:50 PM
horizontal rule
6

Eh. When he was in the states, he was told they 'preferred' that he didn't fly. I wouldn't be surprised if this weren't poor communication.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:53 PM
horizontal rule
7

5: Maybe it's more common in Texas?


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:55 PM
horizontal rule
8

What a great way to start a marriage-- hey, honey, I've got the consumption!


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:58 PM
horizontal rule
9

He was initally advised against flying. CDC people determined which strain he had while he was in Italy; they informed him and told him to report to Italian health authorities. He should have known that "the whole solitary confinement in Italy thing" was to prevent the spread of the disease. Complete asshole.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 12:59 PM
horizontal rule
10

5 -- also, "who is older" seems like a pretty wacky basis for an argument with recourse to cutlery.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:00 PM
horizontal rule
11

Wait a minute... They were having an argument over WHO WAS OLDER? In my social circle this argument is usually ended pretty quickly by a comparison of birthdays...


Posted by: jenny | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:01 PM
horizontal rule
12

8: How romantic -- it'll be just like La Bohème!


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:01 PM
horizontal rule
13

when the two cousins began arguing over who was older

Classic.


Posted by: Gonerill | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:01 PM
horizontal rule
14

In my social circle this argument is usually ended pretty quickly by a comparison of birthdays...

Possibly the problem was that they were both older than 10 and wearing shoes.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:04 PM
horizontal rule
15

Maybe the sentence is incomplete -- "when the two cousins began arguing over who was older [, Nat "King" Cole or B.B. King]" -- as there was no jazz encyclopaedia handy to settle the matter, it developed into fisticuffs.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:05 PM
horizontal rule
16

Much as it appeals to me to subscribe to Sifu's take on Bush's Bizarro Ameripalooza, I think anyone who goes from "the CDC is telling me I have a nasty variant of TB" to "so I'm going to fly overseas and kiss the person I love and hang around partying for a while then fly Czech Air to evade the no-fly list" is either an asshole or a complete idiot.

You know, I bet JP3 is sitting there drafting an addendum to her insurance post noting that all those other assholes who took the conscious risk of flying with some guy who had TB were just asking for it. Right? Right?


Posted by: Robust McManlyPants | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:05 PM
horizontal rule
17

pitchlery. Tynes are pointed but don't have any edge. I know a lot of Texas is grassland, that rural life has made mobile homes very common, that inside/outside boundaries are hard to maintain, particularly in the absence of a someone primarily housekeeping, and that tools left outside are subject to theft. Maybe the bad blood has other sources, etc.


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:06 PM
horizontal rule
18

Where do I volunteer for solitary confinement in Italy?


Posted by: Anderson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:09 PM
horizontal rule
19

17 -- I reckoned "cutlery" was incorrect and someone would steer me straight; but M-W does not like "pitchlery". Any other ideas?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:09 PM
horizontal rule
20

16: well, he didn't know he had the nasty variant before he flew. He also hadn't been contacted by the CDC, just local health authorities.

I just feel like we don't know the whole story. This seems, even if the guy did act like an asshole on some level, like it could very easily be the CDC's fuck-up, and they're using the guy as a scapegoat. I mean, if they had assured the guy they would get him back home, he wouldn't have flown, right? If they were going to do things on a voluntary basis they kind of had an obligation to secure his cooperation.

Also, nice no-fly list, champs.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:10 PM
horizontal rule
21

(Also, "tines".)


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:11 PM
horizontal rule
22

Sifu, you're a goddamned bacterial apologist.


Posted by: FL | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:13 PM
horizontal rule
23

20: He knew before he flew back; the CDC contacted him in Italy. That's why he evaded the no-fly list by coming through Canada.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:14 PM
horizontal rule
24

23: yeah, before he flew over, I meant.

But, really, you can evade the no-fly list by coming through Canada? Doesn't anybody else see a problem with that?

I dunno, this guy certainly made a decision that fucks up a lot of people's lives, and might kill people, and for that he should rightly be criticized. But he's one guy, preparing for his wedding, getting conflicting information from multiple government agencies about a potentially fatal disease he's contracted. I have a lot more sympathy for him that I do for the massive, well-funded federal agency that is supposed to be specifically preventing this kind of thing from happening. This is the first quarantine since 1964. I don't know why anybody would assume that this is anything but incompetence on the part of the CDC.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:24 PM
horizontal rule
25

"than I do" rather.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:24 PM
horizontal rule
26

3: In a similiar case in Brazil, a poet observed that "our murderers are suffering from a drastic shortage of motives".


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:24 PM
horizontal rule
27

The CDC strikes me as an example of a good bureaucracy which hasn't been degraded too much by Bush, though he's tried, I think. This particular case strikes me as good practice by the CDC. It doesn't have the marks of Bushism.

The guy seems like a grade A jerk.

TB is less virulent than a lot of diseases, but anything incurable and fatal is scary.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:29 PM
horizontal rule
28

26 -- that line was cut from the American release.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:31 PM
horizontal rule
29

I don't know why anybody would assume that this is anything but incompetence on the part of the CDC.

Maybe because they know something about the CDC and about drug-resistant TB. Budget-cutting and anti-tax demagogy have seriously weakened the US response to the resurgence of a disease that we came very close to eliminating. The bureaucrats were doing a great job while they were able to.

Your knee-jerk anti-government blather speaks very ill of you.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:32 PM
horizontal rule
30

Your knee-jerk anti-government blather speaks very ill of you.

Maybe people could slow the rate of calling other commenters, esp. those with good history here, out for their various violations of the One True Truth? OTOH, Sifu, if you don't think that this guy should be shot (OK, maybe not shot, but something), it's because you're a Nazi.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:39 PM
horizontal rule
31

Mmm. I don't usually end up at a knee-jerk anti-regulatory position, but restricting someone's movements as part of a quarantine is weird these days: it just doesn't happen often. I don't know how well the necessity of obedience was communicated to this guy, but I don't think he's all that much of an asshole for thinking that if the travel restrictions were trivially easy to avoid, that they weren't all that serious. (I think he was wrong, and I don't have any real reason to believe the CDC screwed up; I just think that "Screw that!" is a normal reaction to being told that you can't fly home given that we aren't accustomed to being given such instructions for health reasons.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:41 PM
horizontal rule
32

"Budget-cutting and anti-tax demagogy have seriously weakened the US response to the resurgence of a disease that we came very close to eliminating."

This is what I meant. I was blaming the CDC as shorthand for blaming the Bush administration for fucking up the CDC. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Well-meaning career public health bureaucrats are obviously mostly laudable.

As far as this dude, I'd really want to know what misinformation he had available when before making a judgement. Sure, you don't get on an airplane when you have TB, but who knows what the situation was. Maybe he made an error that was regrettable, but understandable, given how confusing his situation was, or maybe he's a stone douche. I just don't think we can tell that yet.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:43 PM
horizontal rule
33

I think if CDC tells you you could become Patient Zero in the Next Great Pandemic, "Screw this!" is not an appropriate response. We should subject the lower part of his body to extreme heat, and the upper half to extreme cold. And televise it.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:44 PM
horizontal rule
34

30: oh, that's okay. John can call me out any time he wants.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:45 PM
horizontal rule
35

"Well-meaning career public health bureaucrats" s/b "Willing pawns of the powers that be".


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:46 PM
horizontal rule
36

33: right, but we don't actually know what they told him: "you have a very rare and dangerous strain of TB," vs. "if you get on an airplane you will infect people with a virulent disease that may very well kill hundreds or even thousands of people."

Expecting him to understand what the first one means, when he's agitated and has been given contradictory information doesn't seem incredibly fair to me.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:48 PM
horizontal rule
37

33: Yeah, but did they tell him that, or did they just tell him he wasn't allowed to fly home because he was sick? It's an extraordinary request to make of someone, and disobedience is understandable if they didn't give him extraordinary justifications for it. (Oh, he's still wrong, but I don't think all the way to 'Christ, what an asshole,' status.)


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:49 PM
horizontal rule
38

Tweety-pwned.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:49 PM
horizontal rule
39

36, 37: Exactly what communicable diseases did you two Typhoid Marys spread, and was it in concert or was it independent of each other? And do I need to update my anti-virus program?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:52 PM
horizontal rule
40

39: you might want to get that Chlamydia test we were talking about, Tim.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:54 PM
horizontal rule
41

Sifu, the man in question is clearly suffering from something worse than infectious TB: a massive sense of enwhitelement. Stop defending him.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:54 PM
horizontal rule
42

You don't know that he's white, B.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:55 PM
horizontal rule
43

I just think that "Screw that!" is a normal reaction to being told that you can't fly home given that we aren't accustomed to being given such instructions for health reasons.

Especially reasons of public health. We're much more accustomed to being told not to do things because they're bad for our own health, which seems much more blow-offable. Still, a little thinking about how oh, people generally are advised to avoid going to the hospital if they can help it so they don't get nasty resistant TB, and that sort of thing, might have been illuminating.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:56 PM
horizontal rule
44

But didn't he say himself, "I'm a well-educated, successful, intelligent white person"?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:56 PM
horizontal rule
45

42: Wouldn't it be great if it was Ludicrous?


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:57 PM
horizontal rule
46

42: Please. Talking the way he did, even if he isn't white, he's white.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:57 PM
horizontal rule
47

Hi, my name is Pwnifred Pwned O'Pwnly.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:57 PM
horizontal rule
48

45 -- doesn't he spell his "name" Ludacris?


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:59 PM
horizontal rule
49

Tim's white.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 1:59 PM
horizontal rule
50

Huh. me too!


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:00 PM
horizontal rule
51

Well, he will have to wait to find out whether he's truly been a successful disease vector, in addition to being a well-educated and putatively intelligent one.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:00 PM
horizontal rule
52

"Enwhitelement" should be reserved for instances of specifically white entitlement, not entitlement generally. Anyway, just saying "I'm a very well-educated, successful, intelligent person" makes him an asshole, nevermind spreading TB.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:02 PM
horizontal rule
53

Maybe he made an error that was regrettable, but understandable, given how confusing his situation was, or maybe he's a stone douche.

I'd be able to make up my mind about this really really quickly if I found out he'd been sitting next to me on a plane, when he'd been told twice that he had a dangerous form of tuberculosis. You can give someone tb by breathing on them, even if you're very well-educated and successful.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:02 PM
horizontal rule
54

Look, if you think (or know) that you're on a government no-fly list because of illness, you know that they're worried about spread of the illness. And if you seek to avoid the no fly list on "Screw that!" grounds, you have made the decision that you're comfortable with the risks to someone else's life.

This seems like a much clearer case to me than, for example, a woman not disclosing that she has AIDS before she has protected sex with a man.*

*My recollection is that AIDS transmission is lowest from female to male, then male to female, then male to male. But that I guess that woman I met in the heroin den could have been lying.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:04 PM
horizontal rule
55

One thing the guy may not have known is that MDR has a mortality of 80%. On the other hand, it's not very virulent at all.

Two major factors in the rise of MDH TB are weak health programs and individuals failing to follow medical advice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-drug_resistant_TB


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:04 PM
horizontal rule
56

On airliners there's a special problem because of the recirculated air. Under some circumstances (if he was coughing a lot) he might have exposed everyone on the plane.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:06 PM
horizontal rule
57

mortality of 80%

So he may have flown to Italy for totally altruistic reasons -- wanted to get married before he died, so his widow could get the benefits and considerations from which she would otherwise be cut off.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:09 PM
horizontal rule
58

Yes, okay, obviously if he infected you with TB you will not be predisposed to like him. And obviously that line about being well-educated and successful is lame. But really, I'm surprised at the venom being directed at the dude rather than the agency that completely failed to keep him from doing something so monumentally stupid. How can we judge his actions if we don't know what he was told? For all we know some dumbass local health official told him it was okay to fly. For all we know he went to a bible college where they taught creationism and so he doesn't believe in drug-resistant strains of TB. For all we know he has a prescription to Depakote that ran out in Italy and he got all nuts. For all we know the CDC official in charge of dealing with him insulted his grandmother. We basically know nothing. All I know is that the CDC fucked up, and this one guy might or might not be an asshole.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:09 PM
horizontal rule
59

For all we know he went to a bible college where they taught creationism and so he doesn't believe in drug-resistant strains of TB.

Now there's a truly sympathetic mitigating factor!


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:10 PM
horizontal rule
60

I agree that the CDC fucked up by not forcibly quarantining him. That is, if it would have been legal to forcibly quarantine him.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:12 PM
horizontal rule
61

As I think about this, why was it so important that he not fly, as opposed to having contact with people where he lived? Just the "don't fly" part doesn't seem terribly sensible on public-health grounds - anyone he met in public might be flying somewhere. It seems like he noticed that this so-called quarantine was half-assed and treated it as such.


Posted by: Nathan Williams | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:13 PM
horizontal rule
62

60 Might have been tough for the CDC to do that in Italy.

He had T-fucking-B, and knew that when he got on a plane (outbound). That's unacceptable.

On the other hand, he got what he deserved for that: drug resistant T-fucking-B.


Posted by: TJ | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:13 PM
horizontal rule
63

58: Face it, Tweety. He's an asshole.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:14 PM
horizontal rule
64

The idle rich, haughty disease vectors...is there anyone you people won't defend?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:15 PM
horizontal rule
65

61: close quarters and recirculated air.


Posted by: mcmc | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:15 PM
horizontal rule
66

60: he's forcibly quarantined now, so apparently so.

He says himself that he doesn't understand why they didn't quarantine him before he left. Again from his perspective, they told him it was sort of okay for him to fly to Europe, probably okay for him to fly around Europe, but not okay for him to fly home? If I didn't know the full story of what was happening at the CDC, that would sound pretty retarded to me, too.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:17 PM
horizontal rule
67

56 to 61.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:18 PM
horizontal rule
68

64: Note that he probably is white, and he's from the Atlanta area, so LB and ST have passed into the Last Frontier: defending Bush voters.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:18 PM
horizontal rule
69

This seems like a much clearer case to me than, for example, a woman not disclosing that she has AIDS before she has protected sex with a man.*

Those both seem like pretty clear-cut cases to me.


Posted by: Matt F | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:18 PM
horizontal rule
70

69 gets it right. (even more than usual)


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:19 PM
horizontal rule
71

Yet, no one here is commenting on the fact that, during his 11 day stay in Europe, he apparently took an additional 5 flights. Could he not find a city worth staying for more than 2 days?


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:23 PM
horizontal rule
72

42, 52: Neighbor, please. Well-educated, successful people of color don't as a general rule operate under the delusion that being well-educated and successful means they're immune to inconvenience.

In other words, what 46 said.


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:25 PM
horizontal rule
73

24

"... This is the first quarantine since 1964. ..."

TB quarantine is fairly common. See this for example.


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:25 PM
horizontal rule
74

Neither is anybody commenting on the fact that the CDC apparently thinks those flights were perfectly okay.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:25 PM
horizontal rule
75

both seem like pretty clear-cut cases

You mean the woman and the man are both cut? Because female genital mutilation increases the frequency of HIV transmission between opposite-sex partners.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:25 PM
horizontal rule
76

More details here.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:27 PM
horizontal rule
77

Wasn't he told not to fly home specifically because they determined that he did in fact have TB? As opposed to the earlier recommendation that he not fly because they weren't sure?

Anyway. If he is supposedly intelligent, educated and successful, he surely should have been smart enough to realize the danger of TB. Like he wouldn't have googled it after being told he might have it? Seems to lean towards arrogant, self-absorbed asshole.


Posted by: | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:27 PM
horizontal rule
78

73: "It is the first time since 1963, that the CDC has issued an order for a patient to be quarantined. Usually, such decisions are left to the states, but this case involved international and interstate travel, so the federal government stepped in."

That, then.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:27 PM
horizontal rule
79

(Source for the assertion in 75)


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:28 PM
horizontal rule
80

This is a case where a liberal and a socialist would tend to disagree. I tend toward the socialist side.

We might have jumped to conclusions, but based on what I've seen, the guy seems like a sort of pigheaded scofflaw. The possibility of a CDC screwup is there, but the CDC general does as good a job as it's allowed to do, and pigheaded scofflaws are thick on the ground in these United States.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:29 PM
horizontal rule
81

54

"This seems like a much clearer case to me than, for example, a woman not disclosing that she has AIDS before she has protected sex with a man.*"

How about a man with AIDS having unprotected anal sex with multiple other men? Are such people ever quarantined? Why not?


Posted by: James B. Shearer | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:30 PM
horizontal rule
82

It also looks as though the CDC did the best it could given its slight authority, and that the guy consistently ignored what they said.

And to repeat, air is repeatedly recirculated on airliners, so he endangered hundreds of people.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:31 PM
horizontal rule
83

82: not to the point where those people are being tracked down and given TB tests; they're only looking for the passengers from the rows immediately in front of and in back of him. Even that is just for the transcontinental flights.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:34 PM
horizontal rule
84

I'm switching sides. The speed with which people will condemn a person they do not know on the basis of facts that are not well-established is shocking. Shocking! I strongly suspect that Emerson's animus is motivated primarily by the violation of the No Relationship marriage ban than by the violation of the travel ban.

And I just realized that this guy is probably a goner, so, you know, my sympathies.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:37 PM
horizontal rule
85

80: I dunno. I've been hit with enough confusing medical advice in the last month to dial up my "Fuck y'all" response very close to full activation. So, while his actions appear assholish, I'm not at all prepared to discount a total bureaucratic cluster-fuck in mis-communication.


Posted by: Biohazard | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:39 PM
horizontal rule
86

"Well-meaning career public health bureaucrats" s/b "Willing pawns of the powers that be".

I know my defense of bureaucrats is predictable and knee-jerk, but I'm not willing to call all of them "willing pawns of the powers that be". I think lots of them are very unhappy unwilling pawns, trapped by the fact that they're well trained in a narrow field and there are only half a dozen jobs for virulent TB transmittal experts in the country and the other five are full and they'll lose their pension if they go and the kids are in school in the neighborhood and they thought it couldn't possibly last more than four years, and besides, if they go too, who will be here to fix it when the next administration comes in? The ones I know are much closer to "Well-meaning career public health bureaucrats" and they are even sadder about the way their field has been gutted than the general public.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:41 PM
horizontal rule
87

86: I note that the Nazis also had bureaucracies.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:43 PM
horizontal rule
88

87 is a violation of Godwin's Law.


Posted by: Clownaesthesiologist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:45 PM
horizontal rule
89

84, 85: Woo! LB and I are hell of reenacting Twelve Angry Men.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:45 PM
horizontal rule
90

88 is a violation of Farber's Law.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:45 PM
horizontal rule
91

88: Nazi.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:46 PM
horizontal rule
92

88: Not only that, but the Nazis themselves were known to violate Godwin's Law on a regular basis, making it even more offensive.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:46 PM
horizontal rule
93

Err, to be clear, as Megan might not have seen the other thread, #87 was meant as a broad joke.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:47 PM
horizontal rule
94

93: thanks, Standpipie.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:49 PM
horizontal rule
95

54:

HIV transmission is lowest from female to female.


Posted by: jim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:50 PM
horizontal rule
96

93: Sexist.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:51 PM
horizontal rule
97

95: That's why I only share needles with lesbian junkies.


Posted by: apostropher | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:52 PM
horizontal rule
98

Public health is one of the great triumphs of government, and most of the people I've known or have known of who were involved in public health were dedicted, competent, and right. They get flak from budget cutters, and anti-bureaucratic wingers, and nobody-tells-me-what-to-do jerks.

Furthermore, a post-antibiotic age is a real possibility, and most of the steps that could be taken to prevent it, minimize it, or slow it down are not being taken. Agribusiness just got a new antibiotic approved for animal feed.

We've got AIDS already. Ebola sort of washed out, but chicken flu is still on the move. Resistant TB and staph are controlled so far, but who knows about the future? These are the kinds of things that start small and get bigger, and while they're small people tend to blow them off. (Randy Shilts "The Band Played On" is has a lot to say about that regarding AIDS.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:52 PM
horizontal rule
99

95: Are there any epidemiological films available? I thirst for knowledge.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:54 PM
horizontal rule
100

I agree with all of 98, yet stand by my contention that we don't know enough yet to judge.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:55 PM
horizontal rule
101

A lot of the women-in-prison films have epidemiological passages.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:56 PM
horizontal rule
102

Pam Grier stars in "The Big Bird Flu," coming this summer.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 2:57 PM
horizontal rule
103

Err, to be clear, as Megan might not have seen the other thread, #87 was meant as a broad joke.

I didn't connect it to the other thread, but did assume it was a joke. Thanks for reassuring me, though.


Posted by: Megan | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:00 PM
horizontal rule
104

97: Lesbian baker junkies!


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:02 PM
horizontal rule
105

The big problem TB control people have is that such a high proportion of people with TB are homeless drug addicts and winos who aren't together enough to take their meds long enough to kill the disease off, but just help develop resistant strains. The effective programs actually (IIRC) paid them money to take their meds, or sent people to their homes every day to hand deliver their dose. It was very labor intensive.

So now this guy, "well-educated, successful, and intelligent" acts like a street junkie and blows off the public health people. In my book, his intelligence is a point against him. You don't expect much of street junkies (whom you normally already despise anyway.)

It may be I read the story wrong, but I interpreted it to say that he defied the public health people twice, the second time being the more serious Seemingly the first time they didn't know he had the resistant strain. The fact that the followed him to Italy indicates that they were very serious the second time.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:04 PM
horizontal rule
106

I don't understand why this thread didn't end at 88, but I'd just like to interject: Ebola sort of washed out

Can I get a "whew?"

I'm not down with the diseases that make you bleed from the nipples.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:06 PM
horizontal rule
107

I'm not down with the diseases that make you bleed from the nipples.

Like breastfeeding?


Posted by: bitchphd | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:10 PM
horizontal rule
108

I forget if I mentioned this back when Unfogged was looking for a pet political project, but we really need more advocacy for banning antibiotic use in animals and other things that could end the antibiotic era. It doesn't seem to really be on the Democratic party's radar.


Posted by: Unfoggetarian: "Pause endlessly, then go in." (9) | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:10 PM
horizontal rule
109

Do you want $30/lb beef? Really, do you? Because that's what we're going to have if you really want to prevent bacteria from becoming resistant to everything and causing tens of thousands of deaths a year.


Posted by: Democratic party strategist | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:13 PM
horizontal rule
110

108: going to be a hard sell as long as Iowa's the first primary, I bet.


Posted by: Beefo Meaty | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:13 PM
horizontal rule
111

banning antibiotic use in animals

Banning prophylactic antibiotic use, more specifically, ja?


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:14 PM
horizontal rule
112

I'm good with that -- that one's an issue that gives me the creeps and a half.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:14 PM
horizontal rule
113

107: Ah yes, of course. I should have said diseases that make ME bleed from the nipples.

And yeah, prophylactic antibiotic use is worth getting the creeps+ over.


Posted by: cerebrocrat | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:18 PM
horizontal rule
114

111: Problem is, prophylactic antibiotic use is a symptom of a broader cause. You can't feedlot cattle on field corn withough medical help, and you can't cram them together that close w/o antibiotics.

Going after the particular industrial methods might be more productive.


Posted by: soubzriquet | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:24 PM
horizontal rule
115

If you read the article Ogged links to in 76, he's claiming that his trip back to the US was because he didn't trust Italian medical care and was sure he'd die if he didn't get treated by The Best Health Care System On Earth in the US of A. Risking other people's lives and spreading the disease to multiple geographies in the process. I think he's hoping that he'll come off as sympathetic if he claims his motivation was self-preservation but I think he still comes off as a jerk because of how little he seemed to value other people's lives in the equation. (Improving my chances of survival by X% is worth risking Y lives.) He's a one-man trolley problem.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:24 PM
horizontal rule
116

Problem is, prophylactic antibiotic use is a symptom of a broader cause. You can't feedlot cattle on field corn withough medical help, and you can't cram them together that close w/o antibiotics.

Absolutely.


Posted by: redfoxtailshrub | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:25 PM
horizontal rule
117

And 105+115 is what gets me about this whole thing. Defying the CDC multiple times and then insisting you have some right to sneak back into the US because that's the only country you trust with your medical care (despite defying their authority!) makes you an asshole.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:29 PM
horizontal rule
118

Italian medical care is JUST FINE. (for the record)


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:33 PM
horizontal rule
119

64: Apparently, those who call out other commenters for their various violations of the One True Truth.


Posted by: NCProsecutor | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:37 PM
horizontal rule
120

118: In retrospect, I'm a little dubious about it. We had Sally on a trip to Florence with us at 13 months, and she showed up a day into the trip with a fever and a bunch of red spots with a pimple-like head on them. An Italian doctor said "Chicken pox, give her acetominiphen and don't worry about it." And so we did and we didn't, and the vacation was perfectly decent.

And then when we were enrolling her in school, she needed a blood test to prove she'd had chicken pox, and it turned out she hadn't. So we still don't know what she had.

But I suppose I can't damn the entire Italian health care system on the basis of one misdiagnosis.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:50 PM
horizontal rule
121

At least, being back in the US, he'll be easy to sue, right?


Posted by: litiguous larry | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:54 PM
horizontal rule
122

Hm, that sort of resonates with my experiences with European health care in general: non-interventionary, reassuring, decent, and not particularly determined to climb every mountain or test every symptom. It sounds like a rather reasonable misdiagnosis, though.


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 3:59 PM
horizontal rule
123

Oh, it looked exactly like chicken pox to me too, and she never got very sick, and she was fine. It was just a little disturbing -- you mean my beloved toddler had Italian Mystery Pox!!11!one! in retrospect.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:02 PM
horizontal rule
124

Seriously, though, isn't it obvious that the whole thing was the guy's fiancee/wife's fault? Bridezilla and all that?


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:03 PM
horizontal rule
125

it turned out she hadn't

Or maybe didn't still have the anitbodies? Is that possible?


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:18 PM
horizontal rule
126

Could be, I don't know. If there were any well known goat molesters reading this (Ned?) they might know.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:20 PM
horizontal rule
127

I call cowpox!


Posted by: Jackmormon | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:22 PM
horizontal rule
128

I was diagnosed with chickenpox twice as a kid. The first time was very mild and I suppose must have been a misdiagnosis. The second time was no fun at all.


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:29 PM
horizontal rule
129

She should be seropositive throughout childhood and adolescence if she really had chickenpox primary infection.

Not being a doctor, I don't know what other diseases cause symptoms similar to chickenpox, so we should assume it was the one transmitted by mites.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:37 PM
horizontal rule
130

My son got chickenpox when he was 22 or so and looked like the night of the living dead. No permanent effects, I hope -- his fertility has been verified, unfortunately.


Posted by: John Emerson | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:50 PM
horizontal rule
131

This is pretty much a classic case of "freedom doesn't include the freedom to shout fire in a crowded theatre", IMHO. Of course, my view may be affected by the fact I live next to Heathrow Airport, and the bastard just had to bring us his successful, intelligent bacterium.


Posted by: Alex | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 4:59 PM
horizontal rule
132

I'm a criminal lawyer in Canada, and I have to say that I think he could (and damn well should) be prosecuted here for putting his fellow passengers at risk.


Posted by: 3pointshooter | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 5:02 PM
horizontal rule
133

Oh, and I also love this line:

"This is insane to me that I have an armed guard outside my door when I've cooperated with everything other than the whole solitary confinement in Italy thing."

In other words, "I can't believe they have an armed guard to keep me in solitary confinement just because when I was supposed to do it voluntarily I didn't"...


Posted by: 3pointshooter | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 5:05 PM
horizontal rule
134

he could (and damn well should) be prosecuted here for putting his fellow passengers at risk

Commies, the lot of you.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 5:25 PM
horizontal rule
135

"he could (and damn well should) be prosecuted here for putting his fellow passengers at risk"

Commies, the lot of you.

Well, I suppose that should be fellow *travellers*, then...


Posted by: 3pointshooter | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 7:30 PM
horizontal rule
136

The implication from this guy's classic line is that unsuccessful, not-particularly-bright types should have armed guards outside their doors in such a scenario, but smarties who are pulling down the big money are exempt. It's rare to see such a bald-faced appeal to classism these days.


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 9:49 PM
horizontal rule
137

It is?


Posted by: DaveL | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 10:43 PM
horizontal rule
138

no one here is commenting on the fact that, during his 11 day stay in Europe, he apparently took an additional 5 flights

Holy crap, I was coming down on the sympathetic side until I read that. Now I think he was doing it on purpose.


Posted by: neil | Link to this comment | 05-30-07 10:56 PM
horizontal rule
139

Well, if people are going to accept limitations on their freedom for the common good, the trust thing is important, and that's in short supply lately. For instance, there's a plan to monitor the behaviour of gay men in London so as to limit the spread of HIV:

The new scheme would require thousands of volunteers to converge on bars and clubs to obtain intimate details of gay men's sexual behaviour, in order that safe sex 'lapsers' can be ranked according to risk, recorded on a database and only then given information which is deemed appropriate.

With no evaluated pilot of this initiative, and no evidence that supports it as an effective strategy, HIV charities fear it could undo years of work and alienate many men who do not want to access services in this way.

I'd say schemes like that would be very effective in helping people to get in touch with their own latent sense of entitlement.

Re 136: in English speaking countries generally, social mobility is down and inequality is up. Class is in.


Posted by: Charlie | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 3:31 AM
horizontal rule
140

54: SCMT, that was you?


Posted by: alameida | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 3:55 AM
horizontal rule
141

Another vote for asshole. You don't just innocently fly into Toronto to avoid the no-fly list by accident.


Posted by: Cala | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 6:52 AM
horizontal rule
142

Though, having just learned that he has a potentially fatal and incurable illness, it seems likely that the guy's ability to think with great clarity may have been a bit impaired. The "well-educated, successful, and intelligent" line bugged me, too. But I can also imagine that, if I were in a foreign country and learned I was terminally ill, I would likely feel strongly tempted to get back home by whatever means necessary.


Posted by: Di Kotimy | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 7:06 AM
horizontal rule
143

Even if class is in, flaunting it like this guy did (a) is never in, and (b) is probably a good sign you're not in quite so high a class as you like to think you are, anyway.


Posted by: Gaijin Biker | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 7:47 AM
horizontal rule
144

i had a really good experience with the Italian health care system: free x-ray to determine hairline fracture of my knee, free examination, and the doctor even asked me what i preferred then put me in bandages instead of a cast so i could continue to walk (gently) to get around. all this for a non-EU citizen.

and the French health care system is fantastic - heads above than the US in my experience (and I've had exceptionally nice US health care).

i think health care is particularly an area in which what you're used to seems like what's right to you. and yet, the US version tends to be subpar.


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 12:49 PM
horizontal rule
145

NB: free emergency care to a non-EU citizen with no insurance


Posted by: mmf! | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 12:50 PM
horizontal rule
146

Oh, I shouldn't have badmouthed Italian doctors -- I was entirely happy with the care we got for Sally until finding out about the misdiagnosis, and that was harmless. The process of getting in to see someone was absolutely painless, which was weird from an American point of view.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 12:53 PM
horizontal rule
147

In a related note, my insurance company just denied me coverage for a routine blood test for some strange reason. Looks like I'll be spending a few hours on the phone.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 1:26 PM
horizontal rule
148

Oh, and the cost for this routine blood test? $330.


Posted by: pdf23ds | Link to this comment | 05-31-07 1:27 PM
horizontal rule
149

132: If anyone catches TB from him and dies, I could see negligent homicide. Otherwise, what crime has he committed? Violation of a lawful order or something?


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:09 PM
horizontal rule
150

149: Reckless endangerment would be my guess.


Posted by: Jesus McQueen | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:16 PM
horizontal rule
151

149: making the no-fly list look even more ridiculous.


Posted by: Stanley | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:21 PM
horizontal rule
152

Since he's going to die, apparently, there's no point in prosecuting him.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:22 PM
horizontal rule
153

150: Fuck, there go my chances of passing the bar.


Posted by: washerdreyer | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:24 PM
horizontal rule
154

Since he's going to die, apparently, there's no point in prosecuting him.

Hmm, that sounds like a loophole that would apply to a lot of people.


Posted by: Cryptic Ned | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:24 PM
horizontal rule
155

Where do you get that he's gong to die?


Posted by: I don't pay | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:25 PM
horizontal rule
156

There's only something like a 30% cure rate for his type of TB. He may not die quickly, but he's in a fair amount of danger.


Posted by: LizardBreath | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:26 PM
horizontal rule
157

Doesn't the strain of TB he has has something like an 80% mortality rate? I thought I saw that somewhere.


Posted by: SomeCallMeTim | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:27 PM
horizontal rule
158

SomeCallMeTim is a advanced, sentient bacterium, commenting from Andrew Speaker's lung.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:28 PM
horizontal rule
159

There you go again, ogged, with your modernist notion of progress.


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:47 PM
horizontal rule
160

Sorry, not sure why the rest of that comment got cut off.

SomeCallMeTim is a) advanced, sentient bacterium, commenting from Andrew Speaker's lung b) retarded.


Posted by: ogged | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:51 PM
horizontal rule
161

c) less than the nominal amount by a power of the discount rate, because of the time value of Hitlers


Posted by: Standpipe Bridgeplate | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 3:56 PM
horizontal rule
162

Yeah, but the high mortality is also because it's usually not diagnosed until the later symptom-showing stages. I read that since they caught it so early for this guy, he'll likely be OK.


Posted by: Becks | Link to this comment | 06- 1-07 4:11 PM
horizontal rule